User talk:Fizzle8094@legacy41964097


 * September 8th - Febuary 16th

Japanese Guides
Hey, would you happen to have the LA Shogakukan guide? Or the OOA/OOS guides, for that matter? I thought I remembered you saying that you had at least one of them. If so, I have a little favor to ask. Can you please check how the guide names the dungeons, if they use kanji? They don't in-game. I've been discussing with Osteoderm about the use of kanji in the Japanese titles, which wouldn't be accurate unless Nintendo uses them as well. To verify that, we need access to the Japanese guides, which is where you come in :P 17:33, 21 February 2012 (EST)
 * Unfortunately I do not have the Shogakukan guide and have been looking for it FOREVER (scans, rather). I have scans of two others I grabbed from Zelda Dungeon, let me check them for you. I believe they will, in-game doesn't use kanji like at all, at least for the map. I'm not sure if kanji is readable on a Game Boy. Lets see...
 * Tail Cave in the Futashiba guide uses a mixture of katakana and hiragana. Bottle Grotto uses kanji. Key Cavern uses some as well. Angler's Cave uses a bit. Actually, they all do except for Tail Cave, I think, and possibly not Catfish's Maw by the looks of it. Let me check the Keibunsha guide... looks like it uses LESS kanji, some are just using hiragana where the other guide doesn't, but it does still use kanji with the same names for others. I would very much assume the Shogakukan guide would use kanji too. That is how it is with the ALttP guide.
 * I don't actually have access to scans of the whole Oracle guides, I only found segments on Zelda Europe, oddly. I am not sure why all of it isn't there. A quick check of what IS there though shows that it uses kanji too, however. I hope that helps some! Sorry I don't have exactly what you're looking for. If you ever find either I'd be grateful. Basically though I don't think the games use kanji in-game because it is too hard to read, but kanji would presumably be used in guides and other material. 20:42, 21 February 2012 (EST)
 * I'd just like to say that I really, really appreciate this. --Osteoderm Jacket 20:54, 21 February 2012 (EST)
 * No problem. I found the guides on Zelda Dungeon, if you're curious, I believe they're still there, I saved them anyway though. 12:11, 22 February 2012 (EST)


 * Yeah, what Osteoderm said. I'll keep looking for the OoX guides because I think those are the ones we need the most right now... By the way, Fizzle, your talk page is starting to get pretty long. You should consider archiving it soon. If you need help with that, just let me know. 16:31, 22 February 2012 (EST)
 * Out of curiosity, what Japanese (and for that matter, English) guides do we have access to in some fashion? I have quite a long list of my own when it comes to English ones but I thought I'd better ask you guys what you actually have (either to hand in print form or available as scans). 18:03, 25 February 2012 (EST)
 * I myself have digital copies of all the official English guides (including some non-official Prima guides) except FS, FSA, SS, and parts of PH. 20:31, 25 February 2012 (EST)
 * No Japanese guides? I have a scanned copy of the FSA guide (in bad quality, but its there) and Prima PH guide (also bad quality) and also the GBA release of ALttP, which includes some FS stuff (no enemy names however). If you ever need information from them, I can help. 12:31, 26 February 2012 (EST)
 * Figured there's not much worth me spending time to find guides I wouldn't understand anyway :P
 * Thanks for the offer. I might take you up on that sometime. 18:27, 26 February 2012 (EST)

Castle Dungeon
Actually Castle Dungeon isn't an alternative name of the Sewer Passageway, but instead refers to the section of Hyrule Castle in which Zelda is held captive, as stated by her in game when she telepatically tells Link in the beginning of the game that she is in the Castle Dungeon and needs to be rescued. Could a new article be needed? SkullJ 11:35, 25 March 2012 (EDT)
 * You'd think that, but when the log at the end of the game's credits counts the number of "games played" (deaths or saves in the SNES version) Castle Dungeon actually refers to the Sewer Passageway, after rescuing Zelda. I checked this myself by testing dying in various locations at the start (and using a debug code to skip straight to the ending), and it's definitely that area. It's weird, but since "dungeon" in Zelda (and RPGs in general) basically refers to any labyrinth, I guess that's why there is confusion. There is a literal dungeon where Zelda is held, which is the basement floors of the castle, then there's an extra "dungeon" which is the passageway. I expect the confusion is mainly a translation issue, as the dungeon names in the credits are identical for both versions. It should also be noted that the Sewer Passageway has its own map seperate from the rest of the Hyrule Castle map, so it is effectively a seperate dungeon in itself. 17:03, 27 March 2012 (EDT)
 * OK, if it even is the area on the death counter than you are truly right. SkullJ 16:24, 29 March 2012 (EDT)
 * But while talking about dungeons there's one other thing I wanted to ask you. I've seen that you discussed the topic about merging dungeons which appeared in ALttP and FSA (like the Desert Palace) just with a different name in the English localization (Desert Temple), but the same in Japanese. I'm completely on your side on this topic to merge them to one article, but as two months have passed and the articles are still not merged I wanted to ask what the results of the discussion were or if a solution still isn't found. SkullJ 14:29, 30 March 2012 (EDT)
 * The issue is a little difficult, as some dungeons with the same names are now split (such as Turtle Rock), which is a good thing. Thus it's less of a priority to me that those dungeons are split, since we've now split other ones by game, however, it does seem more clear that the Eastern Palace and Desert Palace are the same ones as in FSA. But then, the Pyramid is not the same, but has the same name in Japan. Its a bit of an awkward issue... I'm not sure what is ideal. 09:22, 31 March 2012 (EDT)

Japanese Skytail and Moldorm
I'd like to know where you found the Japanese name for Skytails. I only found that name when searching through the game files. Same with "Moldworm" (here referred to as Moldorm). I read the bit of trivia you added to the Skytail page and thought it was interesting that Moldorms are also called "tail" in Japanese. Is this what Skyward Sword Mold(w)orms are called? I'm trying to hunt down the best localization of both terms. The game files use "Moldworm" but ZeldaWiki uses "Moldorm". "Skytail" also looks very similar to the Mold(w)orms so, given that trivia I mentioned, I was wondering if "Sky Moldorm" or something would be more appropriate. 16:13, 9 June 2012 (EDT)
 * Skytail is a direct translation of the Japanese name, taken from Hyrule Historia. I believe Moldorm was possibly found from guides or similar... but you say it's called Moldworm in the files? That's an alternate translation of the Japanese, potentially... which lists them as Moldorm, the same as the original Moldorms from the very first NES game. Moldorms in later games are actually called Tails in Japanese (except for in Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword ones), hence the Tail Cave in Link's Awakening, and Magtails in Wind Waker, which are variations. But there is an enemy called a Moldworm, too, in The Minish Cap. Can you tell me more about the game files? For example, what about the green water Spumes, and the Silent Realm enemies? Do they have names in the files of the game? I'd be very interested. Are Skytails listed as Skytails or Sky Tail? Is this from the retail or the demo copy that I think got leaked?
 * But yeah, Skytails aren't related to the Moldorms in Skyward Sword, so I think it'd best to stick with that, especially if the game files call them that too. In other games they change the name of Tails to Moldorms usually because there aren't any other Moldorms in the game, but there is a difference between the two species that is a bit more obvious in the Japanese. It's very messed up and confused, however. Swamola, for example, is ALSO called Moldorm in Japanese. 16:50, 9 June 2012 (EDT)
 * The data files have 'engrish' names - they were named by the Japanese developers but they had to use Roman characters. Hence, many of them are simply romanizations of the Japanese name.  For example, files pertaining to Beedle include the name "Terry".  The models for the flying squirrels encountered when skydiving use the romanji for "Flying Squirrel".  There are many cases of the common l/r switchup and things like "Moguma".  The Silent Realm enemies are Chaser_A and Chaser_B for the Guardians, and Search_A and Search_B for the watchers (interestingly in an archive called "Po").  Spumes are "Maguppo", only differentiated by a number associated with the appropriate texture (they all have the same model).  Skytails are "Skytail", lowercase 't'.  I'm looking at the retail ntsc.  Thanks for answering my questions.  I guess if it's Moldorm in the HH, then that's that.  And I agree with your reasoning for Skytail too.   17:15, 9 June 2012 (EDT)
 * Having them in an archive called Po is pretty telling for those Watchers. They always looked like Poes to me! That's good trivia to add to their page, since it sort of confirms the Poe connection. It would need to be sourced though... are these files freely viewable or do you have to use a specific program when you have the .iso? Wondering if I could check this kind of thing myself, I find it interesting to see all that. Are the other Guardians in a Tartnuc (Darknut) folder or something by any chance? 22:19, 9 June 2012 (EDT)

Zelda CD-I enemies
Actually I was told by Dany36 to add the information to the respected enemies pages with a non canon template on it. So please dont remove the images. Thanks --Shadow Reaper 07:15, 21 June 2012 (EDT)
 * That was in reference to textual information, rather than images. Gallery pages do not have non-canon templates so it's a bigger issue, hence my removal. I don't want to get into an edit war; if you disagree with me then we need to discuss it with everyone, but at the moment you'll notice that none of the gallery pages for enemies include the CD-i enemies. 07:27, 21 June 2012 (EDT)
 * Okay I see your point now. Sorry about that. :P As long as it's just removing galleries I dont mind but I thought you meant for all the ones that weren't just galleries but had enemy info as well. Again, my bad sorry for the missunderstand @.@ ^-^ b --Shadow Reaper 07:30, 21 June 2012 (EDT)
 * No problem, sorry for the confusion! I don't know if we should include the images, if the wiki decides we should later then we'll include all three games at once. It'd be nice if there way that made clear they were like... very uncanon, but at the moment we're limited in what we can do, so for now we'll keep the images on the Zelda's Adventure enemy gallery page. Heck, I'm not entirely happy about the cartoon enemies being included but at least those were... slightly more canon. So please don't take my edits personally! 07:35, 21 June 2012 (EDT)
 * Oh dont worry once you explained it, it made more sense. Also thanks for fixing the EVIL reference tag on the Shrine of Earth page. I tried to add that but it wouldn't work. -_- I don't know if it's because it wont so up right on the Show Preview page or what but oh well. Any who I'm ramblin' so have a nice day. :) --Shadow Reaper 07:41, 21 June 2012 (EDT)
 * Actually...we have several pages, like Moblin and Stalfos, that include non-canon images (like the cartoons and Captain N) in the galleries, so I really don't see the problem with adding images of the CD-i enemies on the respective galleries. It's already stated in the article that they are non-canon, so why not? --Dany36 12:08, 21 June 2012 (EDT)
 * I think there's a difference between non-canon and non-official. My main issue is with non-official stuff. While the cartoons are not canon, they were official... the CD-i games are a gray area I'm less sure about. Also, hate to be non-objective, but they're pretty ugly, too. Perhaps we should discuss this on Hyrule Castle? There's also the Million Publishing guide artwork that's floating around a lot that I guess is worth discussing at the same time. 17:39, 21 June 2012 (EDT)

User thingamagigs
Hi Fizzle my name is Barr1213 and I want to share these User thingamagigs I made.Here they are. Code:

Code:

PNG Compression
Hey there. Thought I'd let you know about a handy PNG compression tool called PNG Monster since you've been uploading so many sprites lately. If you run them through that program it reduces the file size, and after a while that really starts to add up. Smaller files equals less server strain and faster loading times. So yeah, check it out if you're interested. It's very easy to use and worth the extra effort. 20:01, 27 July 2012 (EDT)
 * I'll give it a shot, I was starting to get a bit concerned. Most of the files I'm uploading art rather small already, but I guess lots of them do add up, sorry about that. 21:47, 27 July 2012 (EDT)

Yo
Whenever you're uploading a bunch of sprites at a time, don't bother marking all the superseded ones for deletion. As long as you replace all of them with the new ones, we'll see them in the Unused Files. Just thought I'd let you know so you don't end up making extra work for yourself. :P 13:46, 3 August 2012 (EDT)
 * Thank goddesses! I still need to replace the sprites on the individual pages with the new ones, but doing that as well gets pretty tedious, so thanks for letting me know! 14:08, 3 August 2012 (EDT)

Japanese Names
Guess what time it is? If you could find the following Japanese names in those guides for me, that would be great. If not, whatever. They might not be there at all.


 * Old Zora
 * Great Fairy
 * Fairy Queen
 * Temple Remains
 * All the Mystical Trees

Oh, and all the dungeons in LA, OOA, and OOS too if that's possible (see the "Japanese Guides" discussion above). No rush or anything. 15:01, 20 August 2012 (EDT)


 * The Old Zora is known as . Not sure why he's stray... but yeah.
 * The Great Fairy and Fairy Queen depends on what game we're talking about. I'll have to check each one, is there a particular game you were curious about? Venus is called Venus in both games, for one thing.
 * The Temple Remains are called..., so that's pretty much identical. Ato is a little vague, but that's basically what it means.
 * I'll add both those things to the pages, as for the mystical trees and the dungeons, I'll do that a bit later. The trees might be a pain! I'll add them one by one. But yeah, let me know which games you were specifically interested in for the Great Fairies, because that could get... tricky. 17:23, 20 August 2012 (EDT)


 * Thanks, you da best! You know what, I don't know why I asked about the Great Fairies. I can get those from the game. Never mind. So that leaves the trees (no pun intended) and the dungeons... 20:37, 20 August 2012 (EDT)


 * Well, the names vary across games so it might be worth checking. If only for my own reference, regular Great Fairies in ALttP are called, but for the bigger ones I'd have to check... It's the same in Link's Awakening, but the one in the Color Dungeon is called the . Is she the one you wanted the name of? She's definitely the Fairy Queen, in that case. Also, the Fairy Queen in Oracle of Ages is known by the same name in Japanese, so she's a Fairy Queen too. I hope that confirms those, at least! I'll get on the rest a bit later. 22:01, 20 August 2012 (EDT)

Promotion
Because of your quality edits and high activity level, you have officially been made our newest Patroller. Congratulations! The decision was unanimous. I've already said everything that needed to be said on Skype, but again, let us know if you need any help getting the hang of your newest duty. There's also Help:Patrolling Edits to check out as well.

Cheers! 17:16, 12 September 2012 (EDT)
 * Seems simple enough! I'll do what I can. I appreciate that you guys trust me enough to promote me! Even though... it means more work for me. Oh no! 07:56, 14 September 2012 (EDT)

Manually moved pages
Hey,

As you may have noticed, I've tried to undo one of your recent manual moves (as I believe I've mentioned before, we're really not fond of those because they don't carry over the page histories). Problem is, instead of doing that, I should be resting because I'm running a high fever. It's rendered me incapable of thinking straight, and as such I fear I may have botched the job. Before I screw it up even further, could you please clarify which pages were moved where, so these moves can be done properly (by another admin or a healthier version of myself sometime in the near future)? Thanks. 23:41, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry about that. I did it because I don't think the pages have much in the way of histories. And they were REALLY messed up. For reference, I moved "Death Bug" to "Insect Head", I moved "Ultra Lord Death Bug" to "Death Bug" and "Beetle King" to "Ultra Death Bug". I also added some extra detail and fixed some things, and copied the Talk over from Ultra Lord Death Bug to the Death Bug page. I guess I screwed up, but I didn't want to bother you or the admins with fairly obscure pages. I was trying to avoid causing more work for anyone else, I guess it had the opposite effect. These pages needed to be moved though, the names were all totally wrong.
 * Rest up, you shouldn't even be on here when you have a fever. Cut that out and take a hiatus. You can fix my mess later. Very sorry, seriously, feel better soon. 01:52, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Just so you know my recent edits were an attempt to move the Beetle King page over to the Ultra Death Bug page but it seems I wasn't able to rollback to the state when the page was deleted entirely, so I gave up that attempt. Just trying to help fix things, I feel like I'm making stuff worse so I'm going to like... not touch the pages for a bit. 11:15, 17 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your concern. I'm feeling a little better this morning, though. And, well, it's really me who made the mess, but anyway, let's just put this behind us, shall we? I believe everything is as it should be now. Let me know if not.


 * And I totally understand. I remember it used to bother me a little when I had to ask admins to do things for me... But just so you know, it really doesn't bother us to move pages for others and stuff like that. If it's gotta happen, it's gotta happen, no matter how obscure the page is. :P If you mark the page for the move and leave us a little note in the summary (or just let us know through Skype) we should be able to take care of it promptly. 12:44, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

Japanese translations
Hey Fizzle,

I'll take care not to replace that much stuff anymore, although everyone seems to say something else on that matter. Last time, like 6 month ago, when I tried to make some japanese edits I was adding Kanji and people didn't seem to like that either because that was not what was seen in-game. I was just trying to be more accurate this time. I really think we need some guidelines regarding that stuff. As it seems now, I'm planning to take care of japanese and german translations for a while so I will have to do alot of edits and it would be annoying if people start to revert like crazy.

Anyways, some notes and questions on the changes you've made...

ハイラル城|Hairaru Shiro - When you write it like that then the kana reads as follows: Hairarujou. There's a suffix for 城 used in place names and even if there weren't it is considered as a compound which requires you to use the On'Yomi reading in most cases.

魔法のカ|Mahō no Ka - I don't know why you changed that back because Mahou no Chikara is 100% correct. 'no Ka' makes absolutely no sense. 'カ' doesn't even have a 'ka' reading. Whoever translated that probably confused the katakana カ　with the Kanji カ and I don't know why, because like I said it doesn't make sense so people shouldn't confuse it in the first place.

I'm willing to change that back on my own so you don't have to do it. I just wanted to talk about this with you first in case you want to explain the changes.

Anyways, sorry for the inconveniences Bakeneko 05:34, 19 November 2012 (UTC)
 * I have to admit my Japanese knowledge is a little limited, so I tend to have to work things out on a case by case basis. So when there are non-standard readings they tend to slip me by. On the issue of the Magical Force one, that's clearly my mistake, the fact that there was a kanji that was the same completely slipped my mind. Google Translate only gave me the katakana reading. Shouldn't of trusted it, sorry. I'll take your word for that.


 * For Hyrule Castle, my issue is that you added the "no" (ハイラルの城) when I can confirm that it is never spelt that way in ALttP (certainly not in the manual and guides, anyway, been awhile since I checked the game text). It's always Hairaru Shiro. You're probably right about Hairarujou, but my issue is that you changed it to Hairaru no Jou I believe? Or no Shiro. Either way, there's no "no" in there, so I just reverted it back. Later games use it, I think? Feel free to correct it otherwise though, I was mainly correcting the spelling rather than the reading of it.


 * As for the issue of kanji... I can only speak for the older games, but many old games simply were not able to display kanji, but manuals, guides and other material use it. Therefore in these instances, I think it's preferable to use the kanji. I think from OoT onwards this is mostly not an issue, but for games prior to that, the NES games only used katakana I believe and the SNES and GB games did not use kanji much at all. I don't think the GB games use it and I think the SNES game might just use it very rarely. Kanji is definitely preferable in my mind if an official source used it, as it is way more specific, hiragana and katakana can be interpreted in multiple ways, kanji less so. Of course, if it's not used in an official context, leave it as it is, that's my logic.


 * Thanks for messaging me before rushing ahead with anything, I guess I'm kind of protective of that page since I put a lot of time into it, haha. I really appreciate the help though. I have some more things to add to it myself in fact... I'm drowning in Japanese guides here. 13:58, 20 November 2012 (UTC)
 * I agree on prefering Kanji since they are indeed more specific. However, I can understand that using them is inconvenient when the in-game text does not use them. Especially when it's text from the older games which use katakana for most of the time. Would be nice to have some priorities. With in-game text having the highest priority and if that is not available we could turn to official guides and then to unofficial guides or something like that. We could also try and list all of the names but that could look messy. I might write a little section on the Hyrule Castle community page and suggest some ideas some time later...


 * Regarding the in-game name of Hyrule Castle in ALttP: I added . Im currently playing the game and the text is seen like that on the sign east of the castle when heading to the first temple. I can show you a screenshot if you want. It doesn't really matter that much if we use ハイラル城, ハイラルのお城 or even both, but the romaji should be correct.


 * As for the guides, I can help you out, whenever I can spare the time, if you want. Bakeneko 23:22, 20 November 2012 (UTC)

Kamonano Duck and Shiyou Rat
Hey, sorry for the lateness of this reply! So according to my native non-gamer, the "ナノ"　is functioning much the same way as "デヤンス" did: ナノ is an informal variant of "です"　(or "ですか," depending on vocal intonation), so it's sort of like the "I'm a duck" duck. Again, weird, and hard to translate. He has no idea what shiyou might mean, though he didn't exactly pull out a dictionary over it lol. 16:41, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Haha, don't worry about it. Hm, the rat one still confuses me, perhaps I misread the katakana, I'll check my translation. Thanks though, I think for those hard to translate ones it's best to just leave them like that. I'm sure if they had been officially translated they'd have suitably amusing or weird puntastic names, but it's not really up to any of us what those should be. Thanks for your help, if I get stumped by some other ones I may have to ask but I think I have most of them down pretty well... 16:59, 25 November 2012 (UTC)

Re. Thieves' Town
You don't consider Thieves' Town to be something of a Shadow Dungeon on its own merits? I'm not sure if I agree with you there; thematically, it does seem to be quite a bit darker than other Dark World dungeons (on par with the Palace of Darkness, Skull Woods, and Ganon's Tower). The definition this site has given the term "Shadow Dungeon" is pretty broad:

"Shadow dungeons often have "scary" or "creepy" enemies, and are usually very dark in atmosphere. They are commonly located in graveyards or very dark places. True to their theme, shadow dungeons are usually populated by demonic or undead enemies, such as Poes, Redeads, and Stalfos, and often contain copious numbers of pits and deadly traps. Puzzle-wise, these dungeons frequently defy the human eyes, often featuring invisible elements or illusions; light may also be required to open new paths, as seen in The Wind Waker with the Earth Temple."

- From the Shadow Dungeon article

I listed Thieves' Town for several reasons:
 * 1) Its enemies and entrance are very Gargoyle-esque, which I consider "demonic"
 * 2) There are numerous deadly traps and chasms scattered about, much more than the average ALttP dungeon
 * 3) "Puzzle-wise, these dungeons frequently defy the human eyes, often featuring invisible elements or illusions" &mdash; I believe Blind the Thief falls within this category
 * 4) It is necessary to manipulate light in order to expose the boss
 * 5) Since it is located in a village run by thieves and miscreants, it fulfills the "commonly located in graveyards or very dark places" threshold (albeit marginally)
 * 6) It has a very dark atmosphere in its own right

But on reflection, I do think the inclusion of Thieves' Town is probably much more debateable than other dungeons listed there (especially compared to locations such as the Shadow Temple, the Oceanside Spider House, or the Palace of Twilight, which are pretty clear cut examples of this element), so I will let your edit stand. Kurtis C. 08:21, 5 December 2012 (UTC)


 * I think the issue is that the definitions are very vague and subjective. The only "archetype" Shadow dungeons are the Palace of Darkness, Temple of Darkness and the Shadow Temple. I would suppose the Earth Temple covers it as well if only because it is pretty much Shadow Temple 2. Personally I am against using ANY of these definitions when it is not actively specified by the game, or made horrendously obvious. As for Thieves' Town, there is very little in the way of an "undead" motif aside from a few Stalfos, which is what I would consider a key element of a "shadow" dungeon based on the Shadow Temple, nor would I consider the gargoyle to be anything aside from a gargoyle. All of the Dark World dungeons have a pretty creepy entrances.
 * The enemies in the dungeon are actually Zazakku, not Daira, by the way. They're basically the same deal though, but they're not demonic, they are more like Lizalfos, they are just evil crocodile beast men. I think they are basically intended to be thieves and followers of Ganon, but it's never really specified what they are. They're reptile soldiers, but "demonic" is a stretch. I also don't think the dungeon has more traps than any other ALttP dungeon either. Compare it to the Misery Mire, for example, and it has a rather minimal amount of traps. I don't think the number of traps defines the dungeon as a shadow dungeon, either, otherwise the Temple of Time in Twilight Princess would be a shadow dungeon.
 * I think the use of light might apply, however the only shadow dungeon that actually does this is the Earth Temple, correct? You could argue as since the highest floor actually takes place in direct sunlight, it's actually brighter than most dungeons in the game. Illusions are also just as prominent in many non-Shadow dungeons, so I'm not sure about the definition there, either.
 * The Village of Outcasts is also one of the "lighter" areas in the Dark World, given that it is actually inhabited, albeit inhabited mostly by thieves.


 * I think the main issue is that the "element" system this wiki is using is based pretty much solely on Ocarina of Time and has very little relevance to the rest of the series. The Palace of Darkness and the Shadow Temple, despite having the same name in Japan, are almost entirely different. Undead enemies are scarce in the Palace of Darkness, illusions are nonexistent, demonic imagery is actually fairly minimal. The problem is, the temples are named after what they were created to worship, not necessarily representative of their interior. The Palace of Darkness and the Temple of Darkness are temples created to worship darkness itself, and so was the Shadow Temple. I would try to judge the dungeons upon what they are, rather than what trope they vaguely match. Thieves' Town is a hideout for Blind, basically, it doesn't really represent anything else further than that.


 * Don't get me wrong, it's a pretty "dark" dungeon. But again, all of the Dark World dungeons are like that. While the 3D games often use a theme for dungeon, sometimes a dungeon is just a dungeon.
 * I think the element system needs a revamp anyway, I might bring it up with the staff sometime soon. 15:43, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
 * You took the words right out of my mouth. The "element" system is kinda overused. Yes, some dungeons have direct themes (Temple of Ice, Fire Sanctuary, Wind Temple to name a few), but the idea of just arbirtrarily naming dungeons without an obvious theme to be "shadow themed" is getting too common. Where is the line drawn? I believe that if the game doesn't throw it in your face then it has no business being labeled as such. Earth Temple I DO believe is shadow themed, given the abundance of undead, curses, etc. It could also be argued that it's called the Earth Temple because it's BURIED in the earth. But I would definitely support some sort of conventions being placed on the system. There at least needs to be a way to say "this dungeon does not have an elemental theme." 17:15, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I think that either we should limit the element system to dungeons that are specifically based on those "elements" introduced in certain games like Ocarina, or we just replace it with a "theme" tag and let people write whatever instead of using symbols. Or just ditch it entirely. I'm not even sure the "element" pages deserve to be so extensive at the moment. You don't get that sort of thing on any other wiki I've seen, for example. Within the Zelda series, the elements only apply to the Sages, and that's kind of it. 17:35, 5 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Oh, the Earth Temple in TWW is definitely a Shadow dungeon. Otherwise, I'm actually in agreement with you guys. The definition is pretty vague and could stand to be revised. I was not arbitrarily adding the element to any old article &mdash; I just felt that the Thieves' Town dungeon qualified. It is clear that I am the only one, so I'll leave it as is. Kurtis (talk) 23:12, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, I doubt you're the ONLY one, and it's not like your reasonings are completely off-base, but it just seems a bit too subjective for an already vague element, and it's more to do with the system we're using in dire need of a bit of a revamp. Don't worry about it. 23:46, 5 December 2012 (UTC)