Talk:Dark World

The Golden Land, now the Dark World, reflects a person's self right? Link turns into a rabbit (not sure why that is) and the Link in TP turns into a wolf. Is it possible that how Link and the Dark World in this game and Link and the Twilight Realm signifies the Twilight Realm and the Dark World are the same place? Perhps Ganondorf accompanied the Twili on their assault on the Golden Land in the first place that was mentioned in TP? ZeldaGirl96 14:27, 12 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Well... it is stated in ALttP that Ganon created the Dark World as a twisted form of the Light World, located within the Sacred Realm (I don't have any exact quotes, but that's basically what was said). The Twilight Realm isn't in the Sacred Realm, nor (as far as we know) created by Ganon. It's an alternate dimension that all these Twili were banished to a while back. I could be wrong, but that's why I think it's not exactly possible. 14:44, 12 July 2008 (UTC)


 * In Oracle of Seasons, Onox mentions that he was summmoned from the Dark Realm. Just thought I should point this out.

--Felicia's Champion, 23:19, 14 July 2008 (EST)


 * Yeah, the Twilight Realm was a place the Twili were banished to, while the Dark World is a twisted Light World. Maybe the Twilight Realm was based of ideas from the Dark World? 13:54, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Dark World and Twilight Realm may be the same place.
The Dark World and the Twilight Realm might be the same place due to the fact that these are the only places where Link undergoes a change to an animal form. In "Link To The Past", Link is transformed into a rabbit in the Dark World. In "Twilight Princess" Link transforms into a Wolf in the presence of Twilight. The reason the transformations where different may be because of Links age. In a Link to the Past, Link was young (at least under 10) and in Twilight princess he was young adult (aground 17-20) Nasoka 20:25, 14 November 2008 (UTC)NasokaKewe


 * Yes according to theorists and most people they are the same place, however it isn't 100% guaranteed. People's opinions vary, and as this is an encyclopedia, I think these pages should not be merged. 03:48, 19 December 2008 (UTC)


 * The Twilight Realm is its own world, whereas from what I understand from the article, the Dark World is what became of the Sacred Realm when Ganon entered it. Besides, the Twilight Realm probably predates Ganon by hundreds of years.... Jimbo Jambo 06:25, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Evil Realm
Evil Realm redirects here, and the Sacred Realm article says that Ganon was sealed within the Sacred Realm (which itself is also this, the Dark World). However, at the end of OoT, I recall the sages using the term "Evil Realm" specifically, not Sacred Realm or Dark World, and referring to it as a "void," which describes neither. I think the Evil Realm is another place completely, and that it's essentially...nothing, a void. If that's so, then should it get its own article, separate from this and Sacred Realm? Jimbo Jambo 06:31, 27 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Potentially, yes it should have its own article. However, I'm not sure what factual information (if any) could be written in such an article, other than the quote you mentioned. Also, while Evil Realm exists as a redirect, nothing actually links to it except for the link you just added above. So I'd say that essentially it may as well either be deleted entirely, or else get a brief mention in a "Trivia" section here. 18:58, 27 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Not much can be said about a world with nothing in it, but my argument is that as it is its own world and has no more connection that we can see to the Dark World than any other world, a mention of it here isn't really appropriate. So I say either make a short article explaining that it's the void to which Ganondorf was banished and eventually escaped from, or just mention it on the Ganon article (actually, just checked and it says Sacred Realm there too, which should be fixed anyway) and like you said either delete the redirect or maybe even redirect it there. Jimbo Jambo 19:32, 27 January 2009 (UTC)


 * OK, now I'm confused. A quick search shows two prominent mentions of the Evil Realm; reference 7 in the Rauru article links "Evil Realm" straight to Dark World, and at the end of this section of the OOT article is the sentence "...the evil realm that had once been the Sacred Realm before Ganondorf's taint". This needs to be cleared up and standardised, as there are other mentions of Evil Realm that don't link here. I have to say, I'm not fully convinced by your reasoning that the Evil Realm is some completely independent place, never mentioned before or again? It sounds a lot more like a synonym for the corrupted Sacred Realm to me... 19:45, 27 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I didn't realize how widely believed it was that the Evil Realm is the Dark World. Obviously I see problems with this idea and agree it needs to be standardized.
 * Let's look at Rauru's Quote. He describes the Evil Realm as a void, or at least describes a void within the Evil Realm, whereas the Dark World is basically a dark and scary version of Hyrule, right? I also don't think it makes a ton of sense for the sages to seal Ganondorf within his own paradise; he strives his whole life to control and shape the Sacred Realm for his own desires, and as punishment gets locked inside and gets to keep it all for himself? Not likely. Assuming the Evil Realm is the Dark World and a tainted Sacred Realm, I can't imagine what the sages could possibly be thinking by locking up the Great King of Evil within their most sacred place rather than trying to claim it back; I would actually assume that they did claim it back, at least for some time, since, what, is the Golden Land spoken of in legends really supposed to remain a twisted universe of pure evil throughout the entire series? I suppose that's possible but...hard to imagine. Jimbo Jambo 20:20, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

The Dark World page should definitely NOT be merged with the Sacred Realm page in my opinion. In the Japanese, "Dark World", "Evil Realm", "Dark Realm", "Underworld" [in Adventure of Link] and other places are all the word "Makai". This word literally means Demon World, and means any territory under the controll of a Maou [Demon King]. Ganon is called a Maou in every single Zelda game [and no one else is], and thus, the "Dark World" is just ANY territory Ganon controlls. In A Link to the Past and Ocarina of Time, it's the Sacred Realm, but that by no means proves that all Dark Worlds/Makais are the Sacred Realm. Erimgard 20:31, 5 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I never supported this merge either. Since you have resources for, state the differences on the page and remove the merge tag. 02:15, 6 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I think the general consensus here is not to merge, so I'm going ahead and removing the template. 08:17, 6 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I beg to differ. There are only three games in which there actually is a Dark World. And in two of them it is stated specifically that it was the Sacred Realm. That is two out of three. And in Four Sword Adventures the terrain is very similar to that in A Link to the Past and the Dark World functions in a nearly identical way. So it is the same Dark World. Meaning that it most likely is the same place and they should be merged. 18:25, March 10, 2009 (UTC)


 * Though it is mentioned to be the Sacred Realm, I think it shouldn't be merged. I think they deserve separate articles. I can't remember timing of when people are told in game that it is the Sacred Realm, but could merging these articles act as a spoiler to some people (Similarly to if we had merged Sheik and Zelda)? I think they are broad enough to have there own pages, stating they are one and the same with the Sacred Realm in OoT and aLttP on those pages. I'm with Erimgard on this. 19:47, 10 March 2009 (UTC)


 * A spoiler is a good enough reason not to merge I guess. However, Erimgard's reasoning is not correct and is itself a spoiler. That should be removed from the page. Not only that, it is only a theory. Stating a theory to be fact right at the top of the page is not acceptable. 20:03, March 10, 2009 (UTC)


 * Spoiler victory. This article is in need of work though, which we'll have to discuss further. 05:04, 11 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Upon refreshing my memory with said games, I have come to the conclusion that it is not a spoiler to merge them. The fact that the Dark World and the Sacred Realm are both the same place is never hidden from the player. It is mentioned almost immediately in A Link to the Past. The player is barely is even aware of the Dark World before being told it was a resting place of the Triforce.
 * "Link, it is I, Sahasrahla. I am communicating with you across the void through telepathy... The place where you now stand was the Golden Land, but evil power turned it into the Dark World."

- Sahasrahla


 * It isn't a spoiler. 20:06, June 11, 2009 (UTC)

Disambiguation page proposal
I think it would be better if "Dark World" linked to a Disambiguation page. The page could contain links to new pages for the Dark World in FSA, ALttP and OoT (and perhaps ST). The theory about TR being SR can be moved to the TR page. Some other bits of info can be moved to the trivia sections of the respective games. What do you think? Zeldafan1982 12:09, 5 July 2011 (EDT)

Reorganization and Update Info
Honestly, this page has been needing improvements for a long time. One thing thing that will definitely be changed about it is the use of "Yami no Sekai", "Maou", and whatever Japanese terms do not apply to the English translation of the games. That sort of thing can go into the trivia section. There should be a section for each the game the "Dark World" actually appears in. Having a section for a game that merely mentions it creates unnecessary clutter. There will be as history section for each of the games (which I am limiting to ALttP and FSA) and a section for mentions of the Dark World or Realm or the like in other games so not to leave anything out. If anyone has any suggestions, let me know. Noble Wrot 13:50, 19 January 2012 (EST)
 * I agree with your suggestion. I'd just like to say that OoT should be included in the "main" section since the OoT Dark World is the one shown in ALttP. Zeldafan1982 14:37, 19 January 2012 (EST)


 * It's not very good if you simply remove information and fail to add a trivia section that would otherwise contain that information. The page is now lacking mention of Ocarina of Time (where it is called the Evil Realm) and ANY mention of it's Japanese names, which are important to understanding the Dark World, as it has actually been mentioned as far back as Zelda II, I think. The realm is also mentioned in the Oracle games too. I personally preferred the old article, even if it was a bit of a mess, it at least offered more information rather than mostly retelling the events of ALttP.
 * I think this is one page that should probably be arranged by timeline, because it's a pretty major area and key to the history of Ganon. I fail to understand the logic of removing games that mention it from the history, as that's fairly key to the history of it, after all. There is absolutely NO NEED to censor information from the article.
 * Aside from that, the page is also lacking information on the geography and the mirror nature of the world. It's now pretty much just a retelling of the events of A Link to the Past. It's all nicely cited and everything, but I do not feel particularly informed about the Dark World by reading this article, just informed about ALttP. 15:44, 27 July 2012 (EDT)
 * I also think that the Oracles and the AoL should have a mention (in the "other appearances" section.) A trivia section about the Japanese terms would be nice too. The OoT Dark World is mentioned indirectly in the history section.
 * Another thing is the nature of the Dark World. The one in the Oracles and in AoL is probably the same. I haven't played FSA but from what I have read I'm not sure if it's the same or not :/ Zeldafan1982 13:48, 28 July 2012 (EDT)
 * The first thing that needs to be done is that the Dark World stage needs to have it's own page. The stage is very different from the Dark World proper, because they both exist independently. As for the ones in Oracles and Zelda II... given Hyrule Historia, both games occur after ALttP, so it is likely they are referring to the same one, and it's possible that it can return or that it simply did not disappear overnight. The Dark World appears in the possibly-not-canon Inishie no Sekiban because Ganon comes back briefly, so that needs a mention too... I'll have to find some time to add all this stuff soon. 18:50, 28 July 2012 (EDT)
 * it's possible that it can return or that it simply did not disappear overnight. Both of them are valid theoretical possibilities I guess. I'd just like to point out that page 97 of HH has "the end of the dark world" as its title. It would be nice if HH elaborated a bit more on the issue.. Zeldafan1982 10:43, 29 July 2012 (EDT)
 * I will have to check HH translations more carefully before going into that. I do think maybe there is a distinction between "makai" and "World of Darkness", in that it's possible to have other makai that are not necessarily the Dark World. Either way, there's room for a theory section to contain all that. 13:36, 29 July 2012 (EDT)
 * If you guys think it's missing information, feel free to add it in! That's one of the wonders of a wiki. :) --Dany36 17:14, 28 July 2012 (EDT)


 * I am planning to, of course! I'm just a bit concerned because I'm sure some of that information was removed needlessly. It did need a reorganization, but it has had a bit more than that done. 18:50, 28 July 2012 (EDT)


 * Allow me to disagree with the recent adjustments made to this page. The additions can be very misleading. The only events surrounding the Dark World in OoT are what is mentioned about Ganondorf corrupting the Sacred Realm. A lot of what is mentioned about the Dark World in the Hyrule Historia does not happen in the course of OoT's plot; it is only covered in the book. Also, the Imprisoning War does not happen until generations after OoT's story, so it should not be covered under an OoT section. In other words, a lot of the events surrounding the Dark World of ALttP's are all connected to its plot, so it should be covered in ALttP's section. The connection to OoT should definitely be mentioned, but we should really leave timeline discussions out of this; I just wanted to covered a single Dark World as it in exists in a certain Zelda game because it is the same Dark World. When this same Dark World becomes prominent other future Zelda games, we can change things up a bit, but this is all about A Link to the Past, and it is relevant to its appearance in that game. That why I include "History" in the ALttP section, and it is complete separate from the Four Swords Adventures' Dark World.


 * Now, not all of your additions were disagreeable. There were some nice changes to wording, and I definitely agree that trivia should be included. I was going to get to that, as I made set aside all the trivia in the same spreadsheet in which I rewrote the Dark World article. It was a lot of trivia, and it was really repetitive, so it was a lot to work through. Trivia is not my favorite subject on ZW because some of it is questionable without confirmation, so I admittedly avoided it in favor of what I thought was more important and practical as content of the page. I honestly just never got to it. As Dany said, you are free to add trivia on your own, and you can always check the page history should you want to grab something from there. All-in-all, the page is incomplete and in need of images and perhaps some templates. The infobox could be filled out, with the inclusion of the Dark World theme. There are some things to be desired yet, but I will stand by why I said. The format of the page was fine as it was, and the OoT section was excluded for good reasons. Noble Wrot 23:07, 27 August 2012 (EDT)


 * I haven't made any adjustments myself yet, but the fact that the Sacred Realm (Golden Land) because the Evil Realm (Dark World) is enough of a reason in my opinion that it should be mentioned on this page. It obviously doesn't require a lot of detail, but it does require mentioning. It's where the Dark World began, timeline-wise. It seems you agree somewhat, but yeah, I think THAT counts as a historical relevance to the Dark World seen in ALttP. While I agree that the one in FSA is not exactly the same, their similarities and differences need to be pointed out, also. I think the article could focus on geography and nature of the world more than simply reciting the events of ALttP, however. 09:23, 28 August 2012 (EDT)

If you guys must know, the Sacred Realm was corrupted when Zelda with her Hylian people she recruited sealed Ganon with the Triforce within it, turning it into the Dark World, directly after the defeat of the Hero of Time in the Downfall Timeline ending of Ocarina of Time. Then some short period of time, the Imprisoning War began, which would lead to A Link to the Past. However, in the Adult Timeline, the Sacred Realm was already corrupted because Ganondorf entered the Door of Time after the Master Sword was taken, then Hyrule itself was the Dark World as confirmed in Ocarina of Time and The Wind Waker. Ganon was already an Evil King unlike in the Downfall Timeline when he was king after winning the Triforce. The Hero of Time got lots of time to be stronger and he was able to defeat Ganondorf and save Zelda. The six sages sealed Ganon in the Sacred Realm, which was already corrupted once Link turned eighteen.--Prince Ludwig 00:44, 28 August 2012 (EDT)


 * Whoa, hold up. According to OoT itself, the Sacred Realm had already become the Evil Realm well before the end of Ocarina of Time. Given that the events only split once Link loses against Ganondorf (before he turns into Ganon), we can assume this has already happened also. Perhaps not the Dark World we see in ALttP, more a "void" as mentioned in Ocarina, but it had definitely started. Almost all the events of Ocarina of Time had already occurred by the time Link is defeated in the third timeline. Note that Ganondorf is already described as a "Demon King" (King of Evil) in Ocarina in the first fight with him, too, so he had that title as well. I think you're getting the placement of Link's defeat confused: he loses against Ganondorf as an adult in Ganon's Tower. It's a bit more obvious if you can see the page itself rather than just the text, as it has an image of Link fighting Ganondorf. As for Hyrule itself being the Dark World, I don't know where you are getting that from. Yes, Hyrule becomes his realm, but it is not described as a Dark World (or "makai") as far as I am aware. I will have to check the Hyrule Historia translations again, though. 09:23, 28 August 2012 (EDT)

Even if it's a few days late, I'm trying to say that the Downfall Timeline has a sightly different story from the Adult Timeline. Yet, it cannot be denied the Child Timeline has the same story. In the Downfall Timeline, Twinrova returned, even Volvagia renamed as Barba, meaning they weren't faced hundreds of years earlier. It can be said that the Dark World (despite being the Sacred Realm) could be the same Hyrule from the Downfall Timeline where the Hero of Time existed which was turned into the Dark World by Ganon turning the Sacred Realm into a world of evil. There was an icy temple at the dark counterpart of Lake Hylia, which I imply to be where Link did not clear the temple and let the Zoras freezing to death. There is also a forest that would probably turned dark probably by Phantom Ganon being remained over there for a long time. But that's just me. About the hero's adventure in the Downfall Timeline being different would make sense on how the timeline's future turned out and how it really follows the events of Ocarina of Time. It was said the Seven Sages Zelda was with, after her Triforce of Wisdom was taken from her and the Triforce of Courage was taken from Link, were her people she recruited.

They would be the same Hylian Seven Sages who return to make another seal during the Imprisoning War a few years after the defeat of the hero. And a few characters, even the relatives of the Royal Family of Hyrule were related to the Seven Sages in A Link to the Past. Now then, after A Link to the Past, it was time to check out other countries where the Hero of Time's distant relative met the people from Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask in the Oracle series.

The fate of Hyrule's downfall was to be avoided. In Ocarina of Time, Link leanred about his true destiny in the Adult Timeline probably because a few characters are aware of the same danger that occured in the Downfall Timeline which would definetely happen in the Adult Tineline. But Link prevailed: he defeated Ganondorf and saved Zelda, even awakened the other five Sages from different tribes and defeated most bosses who won't return back in centuries later unlike A Link to the Past and its follow-ups where he failed to protect Hyrule.

It's a theory I made, also because I looked at the Zelda Timeline's picture, and it seems that most events of Ocarina of Time's Adult Timeline was longer than it was in the Downfall Timeline. It would mean that the final battle in the Downfall Timeline occured directly after Link turns 18 years old.--Prince Ludwig 13:06, 14 September 2012 (EDT)
 * There is no implication though in HH that the sages in the DT version of the final battle in OoT are different from those that we see in the game. Based on what page 90 says the branching occurs right before or at most during the battle, certainly not earlier. Also, the diagram should not be read very literally because then the CT branch would have to contain the final battle! Zeldafan1982 18:05, 14 September 2012 (EDT)


 * Volvagia was not "renamed" Barba, that's a translation issue, nothing else. In Japan it's always been Volvagia. And he was revived once, he could be revived again, that's not really an issue. Twinrova presumably got revived as well. Reincarnations or being revived from death occur fairly commonly throughout the series, after all. And I own HH and I can confirm what Zeldafan says; the split occurs at the final battle between Ganondorf and Link in Ganon's Tower. Nothing else prior to that is any different, and the events afterwards are not hugely different, except that Ganon obtains all three pieces before being sealed. You're adding your own spin on things that is simply not mentioned. I can only recommend you go read the translations found on Glitterberri's website, or wait to obtain the English translation of the book early next year. This isn't the place for theory anymore, given that we actually have it spelled out to us now. 19:09, 14 September 2012 (EDT)

Perhaps the Goddess of Time was responsible for Link's second chance...

Just to say it should be avoided to write that the split occured during the battle against Link and Ganondorf just to avoid confusion. Seriously, think about it. How would it turn out if the Downfall Timeline was everything like the Adult Timeline before Link's defeat? I read everything, and what about you fellas? It was said the Seven Sages of Hyrule sealed Ganon in the Sacred Realm. They were seven instead of six (Saria, Darunia, Ruto, Impa, Nabooru, Rauru) lead by Zelda. They can't be the same sages from Ocarina of Time but the people she led herself. The Imprisoning War did not occured a century or plus. It occured a short period of time after Ganon's seal within the Sacred Realm, so they can be the same Hylian sages. If you look in Hyrule Historia, the Imprisoning War occured during the Era of the Hero of Time's adult era, where the Seven Sages are old.

And one more thing, a few of our theories we had on the Wiki, even Mario's, were read by Nintendo's developers. Especially, there had been many interviews asking the questions based on our theories and they were answered. Let's use this as an opportunity to find an answer to the question.

Ending this conversation of theories, seriously, think about that the Downfall Timeline is litterally an alternate history from the Adult Timeline, even if it is or not.

On-topic: I think the article is okay. Except that in the History section, the two game's titles should be replaced with the eras' name instead.
 * Since the branching occurs right before or during the battle, the OoT sages were also available (since they had been awakened) in the DT version of the battle. Perhaps the wording is not very correct, maybe it should say "the sages led by Princess Zelda". Zeldafan1982 06:28, 15 September 2012 (EDT)

In my theory, the OOT sages weren't awakened (except for two), but... meh. Still the same, but Seven Sages is the most specific one. Yeah, you can write "the sages led by Princess Zelda".--Prince Ludwig 06:10, 16 September 2012 (EDT)


 * Ludwig, I mean no offense, but as I said this isn't really the place for theory, we have what Hyrule Historia said and we go with that now. As for the OoT Sages, I'm not entirely sure what your point is, but Zelda is considered the seventh Sage. Also, can you please keep your comments threaded to the comment you are replying to using the commas like we are? It makes it awkward to read when you don't. 08:05, 16 September 2012 (EDT)

Uh-huh... Yeah, Zelda in OOT is the seventh sage implied to be the Sage of Time. The point is, I just looked at the article, and I believe the article's section is okay the way it is now. If Hyrule Historia said it was the "Seven Sages led by Zelda", I think that's better. All that's left can be upgraded.--Prince Ludwig 22:45, 16 September 2012 (EDT)

The whole 魔界　and 闇の世界　business
Sorry we have to go through this again but the wording for the OoT section of this page needs to be changed. Here's the sentence I'm talking about...

"During the events of Ocarina of Time, the Hero of Time unintentionally allowed Ganondorf to enter the Sacred Realm and obtain the Triforce of Power from the Temple of Light, resulting in the realm's transformation into the Dark World as a reflection of the greed and evil in his heart."

This implies that the Dark World came into existence once Link pulled the Master Sword and Ganon obtained the Triforce of Power, turning him into the Demon King. The Japanese text in OoT does not state that. The problem for the confusion are the English terms for and  which have a similar meaning. The term 闇の世界 is literally the Dark World from ALttP and has been translated as the "Evil Realm" in OoT. It's the place Ganondorf is sealed to when Link defeats him and it is only mentioned once. The term 魔界 is the place where Ganons monster come from and has been translated as the "Underworld" in AoL. In OoT this term has no clear translation per se. It is mentioned 2 or 3 times and translated as "World of Evil" and the likes. Zelda said, that once Ganon obtained the Triforce, the Sacred Realm turned into the Makai and not into Dark World. Yes, it can be assumed that the Dark World and the Makai are something similar but it isn't a fact. So combined with what HH said it looks like this...

Downfall branch -> The Sacred Realm turns into the Dark World, according to HH. It's the Dark World we know from A Link to the Past. Adult branch -> Ganon defeated, sealed into the Dark World, according to OoT. A place we haven't seen and the place where Ganon rises from prior or during The Wind Waker. Child branch -> Ganon executed, no mentioning of the Dark World whatsoever. However, Twilight Princess with the Twilight Realm is in this branch and it can be debated whether the Twilight Realm is the Dark World. 闇の世界 is mentioned in TP.

Interestingly, this would give us a Dark World in every Timeline branch which does make sense. Bakeneko 06:26, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
 * That's a whole lotta text, so let me try to get this straight. You're saying that the page implies that the Dark World was created in OoT, and that this is not true. Because of this you want to change the wording to correct it. Have I got that right? 16:37, 19 January 2013 (UTC)


 * The text implies that the Dark World was created, when Link pulled the Master Sword in OoT and that's not true or at least it is not a fact. So we can keep the sentence like it is, but we should choose another word for "the Dark World". You can just replace it with what Glitterberri translated from HH, which would be "demonic world" or we can use the term that the English version of OoT uses. This would be "a world of evil". According to HH and OoT's text there are only two ocassions where a Dark World is created. Either Link dies in the final battle and Ganon turns the Sacred Realm into the Dark World or Link defeats Ganon and the Sages seal him into the Dark World. Bakeneko 06:21, 20 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Zelda may have said "makai" instead of "yami no sekai" when she was explaining the legend of the Triforce (link), but as you said "yami no sekai" is the place Ganondorf was sealed according to Zelda's speech before she sends Link back (link). HH says that: The Sacred Realm is a mirror of one’s heart. If someone with an evil heart steps into it, it turns into a demonic world. But if someone with a pure heart enters it, it turns into a paradise. Ganondorf became the Demon King thanks to the triforce of power. With the exception of a few places, the Sacred Realm turned into a demonic world where monsters ran amok. The term used above is "makai" which in this case is the former Sacred Realm. In ALttP, "yami no sekai" was formerly the Sacred Realm. It seems to me that "makai" and "yami no sekai" have both been used to refer to the ALttP Dark World although the meaning is not the same. A "makai" can be a "yami no sekai" right? Zeldafan1982 23:52, 19 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Yes, like I said, the Makai can be the same as the Dark World but here's the point where we start to assume things. In ALttP, the term Makai is never used, neither in-game nor in the manual, so you can't say say for sure that both terms refer to the Dark World. We can only assume that Zelda meant "the Dark World", when she said in OoT that the Sacred Realm turned into a Makai after Link pulled the Master Sword, but it is never clearly stated. Bakeneko 06:21, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
 * If the Dark World wasn't created after Ganondorf obtained the ToP, then when did that happen? Either Link dies in the final battle and Ganon turns the Sacred Realm into the Dark World or Link defeats Ganon and the Sages seal him into the Dark World. If the Dark World already existed at the moment of Ganondorf's sealing in OoT, then this means it also existed before Ganondorf obtained the remaining pieces. The only difference is that when he was sealed, he now had the complete Triforce. Zeldafan1982 19:32, 20 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Listen, neither am I a Legend of Zelda story writer nor am I fond of the Zelda series getting an official Timeline, but Nintendo did go for it and we have to live with that. It's obvious that Nintendo didn't plan for a timeline from the beginning and right now I'm just stating what the official sources say. What exactly the Dark World is, when it came into existence and if there exists more than just one Dark World, isn't necessarily part of this debate. I mentioned it to explain, when the game uses the term and to explain my thoughts behind the concept. What matters right now, is that the sentence I quoted earlier needs some change because the text mentions "Makai" and not "the Dark World".
 * If you want my opinion on it, then yeah, in order for Ganon to be sealed in a Dark World there has to exist one in the first place. I can only make guesses myself regarding this matter and I explained it in my first comment. My theory is, that every Timeline branch has it's own Dark World making it a standard in the Zelda universe. The Dark World may represent some kind of Afterlife like the characters in Twilight Princess think of it. In the Downfall branch Ganon turns the Sacred Realm into the Dark World. If Ganon creates the Dark World at this very moment or just expands it to encompass the Sacred Realm is unknown but it is the Dark World from A Link to the Past according to HH. In the Adult branch he is just sealed into the Dark World which already exists in this very Timeline branch. The Dark World of the Child Timeline may be entered in Twilight Princess for the first time. Ocarina of Time splits everything - the Master Sword, the Triforce, so it would make sense that the there are three Dark Worlds. Bakeneko 06:00, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
 * The thing is that the Sacred Realm is said to act as a mirror of one's heart. Given that Ganondorf is evil, it follows that the SR will turn into a "corrupt", dark place. So although for the majority of the game the SR is referred to as a makai it is definitely a "yami no sekai". Conversely, ALttP doesn't use the term makai, but since Ganon is a maou and has control over the realm, the ALttP Dark World is also a makai.
 * The Twilight Realm becomes a dark realm only when the Sols are removed from their pedestals. Before that it is just a realm under perpetual twilight. HH (and Midna iirc) describes it as a "beautiful world". Zeldafan1982 18:56, 21 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Sorry, I have nothing more interesting to add to this conversation, I'm afraid. I understand, that you think that the Makai and the Dark World can be the same location and I agree with that, but just because we both think that, doesn't mean that this is a fact. The text uses Makai in OoT and HH. In my opinion, the story writers would have been more clear on this matter if they wanted to say the the Sacred Realm is a Makai and a Dark World at the same time. Furthermore, if the Sacred Realm in OoT really is the Dark World once Ganon turns into a Daimaou, where is he sealed to then? Zelda clearly said that the Sages sealed him into the Dark World. What would be the point of that if he already is within this Dark World? Link defeats him and they still surrender the Sacred Realm to Ganon? If this is true, then the aftermath would be the same as in the Downfall branch except that Ganon doesn't have the full power of the Triforce. Doesn't proof that the Dark World was already created at that point tho'.
 * Whether the Twilight Realm is the Dark World or not, was just speculation on my end and there's no real proof to back it up. Just as a side note - beauty lies within the viewers eye(Not sure if that's the correct English expression for what I'm trying to say...). So someone can think of the Dark World as beautiful because it's a rather subjective matter.The thing with the Sols doesn't contradict my theory and you can't proof that either because we don't have sufficient information on that, so discussing if this is true is kinda pointless anyway. Bakeneko 19:59, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Zelda clearly said that the Sages sealed him into the Dark World. What would be the point of that if he already is within this Dark World? Link defeats him and they still surrender the Sacred Realm to Ganon? This way, they managed to restrain him to the Dark World. You can say that they "surrendered" this realm to him, but they protected the Light World.
 * Edit: Something I forgot. On page 91 it says that At the end of the intense battle, Princess Zelda held Ganon back with a wave of light while Link finished him off. Then, Ganon was successfully locked up in the sealing void the six sages opened in the Sacred Realm. It seems that Ganondorf was confined in a region of the Sacred Realm. Because it's a little late here, I'll just point to a previous edit I made: http://www.zeldawiki.org/Talk:Hyrule.
 * If this is true, then the aftermath would be the same as in the Downfall branch except that Ganon doesn't have the full power of the Triforce. Exactly. If we compare the DT and the AT at the point of Ganondorf's sealing, the two branches are almost identical due to the fact that the divergence is minimal at that point. In the AT, Ganondorf is sealed in the Dark World. It doesn't make sense for the Dark World to have been created at that instant. So, since the Dark World already existed, if we go a bit earlier in time, say right before the battle began, the Dark World still exists, which means that when the DT is formed, the Dark World exists there as well (it is duplicated when the split occurs). According to ALttP, the Dark World was created when Ganon had the complete Triforce but OoT changed that. It's a retcon basically.
 * About the Twilight Realm, here's a relevant quote from HH: Zant slowly built up his powers until he could cover the Twilight Realm in darkness and turn his tribesmen into mindless monsters.  It wasn't a dark realm before Zant came into power. The sols are the source of "light" of the realm. They play a similar role to the Light Spirits. Zeldafan1982 01:24, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

Seems like we had the same idea. I intended to take a look at the text, when Zelda locks down Ganon to seal him later before writing my next comment. Interestingly, the text in OoT says something different, provided that the HH text has been translated correctly. Here's what the game says, I'll roughly translate that on the fly:

Interesting is, which would support the Twilight Princess concept of a "Dark World-like" afterlife, provided that the Twilight Realm really is the Dark World. The Japanese text also makes it very clear, that the Sacred Realm and the place where Ganon is sealed to can't be the same places. A Door is opened and the sages intend to send him into the Realm of the Dead which is later called the Dark World by Zelda, when she thanks Link for his help. The text would have been different if the Sacred Realm would have already turned into the Dark World at this point. NoA translated again with "the Evil Realm", which makes it clear where all the confusion comes from combined with how they transated Makai on some occassions. Regarding the Twilight Realm, I won't say any more about that, because all of it is pure speculation. I can easily incorporate the Sols into my theory because everything is so loosely tied together and it would be hard for you to dismiss my claims. Besides you can't even say for sure, if the Sols are a standard concept of the Twilight Realm or if they just exclusively exist in the Shadow Palace. Maybe every Dark World was once a Twilight Realm and it only turns into the Dark World, when someone(Ganon, Zant...) spreads darkness. Maybe this is how Ganon ultimately turns the Sacred Realm into the Dark World in ALttP, by spreading darkness in the Dark World until it spills over into other worlds. You see, a discussion purely based on facts to support my theory is impossible and so we would just keep banging heads for nothing. Bakeneko 06:18, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
 * The line about the realm of the dead is bizarre, given that they intended OoT to be the Imprisoning War (it no longer is of course). Anyway, going by what HH says, Ganondorf was sealed in the Sacred Realm in both branches. I don't know if Patas' translation is completely accurate, so I'm not sure about the "sealing void" thing. I'll have to insist though that since the SR acts as a mirror, it will turn into a dark place, reflecting the evil in Ganondorf's heart. I think it's possible that this doesn't happen instantly, but takes some time. Zeldafan1982 21:34, 22 January 2013 (UTC)


 * You know, I have been thinking and I probably picked the worst time to mention this problem anyways. Once HH has been translated to English, we will most likely take that as Canon no matter what I or the Japanese game text says. I don't have a Japanese copy of HH so I can't check what exactly it says on this matter, so I can only rely on the translations from others. It's true that the SR acts as a mirror and a person with a dark heart turns it in a dark place but this place isn't necessarily the Dark World. In any case, it is probably best to wait until HH is released in America before making any changes. Still good that we have this problem written down and debated and we should keep this problem in mind, in case that the English version of HH doesn't mention anything about this. Bakeneko 05:00, 23 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Wow, I missed a lot here. I kind of think this argument is a bit moot... I'm fairly sure the Dark World gets referred to as a "makai" at least once in ALttP (although I'd have to check). While makai is a more descriptive term and the term Dark World is not used in Ocarina of Time... it's still the Sacred Realm turned into a world of evil, which is what the Dark World is. Seems like a semantics argument to me. It's almost exactly the same thing, it just doesn't have a title. The game was originally meant to run straight into ALttP judging by developer quotes so this was clearly their intention.
 * The more interesting question is whether the makai in Zelda II is the Dark World or not. 14:03, 25 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Makai is not mentioned in ALttP. Here's a text dump and I don't remember it being mentioned while playing it. Here's the manual text. The Dark World is mentioned once in OoT. It is the place where Ganon is sealed to. The question is, whether the Makai and the Dark World really are the same thing or something different. In Japanese 魔界 and 闇の世界 are two different terms. We already agreed that it is possible for the Makai and the Dark World to be the exact same places but it is never cleary said to be the case and so this would be an assumption. I already pointed out that the text in OoT does not refer to the Sacred Realm, when Ganon is sealed into the Dark World. The story would still be able to run into ALttP. Ganon can still escape the Dark World some time later, conquer the Sacred Realm and turn it into the Dark World by expanding it. Let's just wait for English HH and see if it mentions something about this. After that, it won't matter what Japanese text says anyway. Bakeneko 23:55, 25 January 2013 (UTC)


 * From Ocarina of Time... "Your spirit remained in the Sacred Realm...and then the Triforce fell into Ganondorf's hands. He went on to invade the Sacred Realm... Ganondorf had become the Evil King, and the Sacred Realm became a world of evil.". Japanese version... あなたの魂は　聖地に封印され…　　　トライフォースは、　まんまと　ガノンドロフの手に…　　ガノンドロフは　魔王となり、　　　聖地は　魔界と化した.
 * "The six Sages will open the sealed door and lure Ganondorf back into the Sacred Realm. I will then seal the door to the Sacred Realm from this world. Thus, Ganondorf the Evil King will vanish from Hyrule."
 * "Ancient Creators of Hyrule! Now, open the sealed door and send the Evil Incarnation of Darkness into the void of the Evil Realm!!"
 * Now, it's clear that the Sacred Realm and the "makai" (Evil Realm) are one and the same thing. Therefore the point is moot, because the Dark World is also the Sacred Realm. While it may not have been THE Dark World as seen in ALttP (a mirror of Hyrule), it is the same location, being that of the Golden Land in a corrupted form that Ganon rules. It's true that Ocarina of Time uses makai, and A Link to the Past uses the actual name of "Yami no Sekai", but it's clear they are intended to be the same thing but at an earlier (unnamed) state.
 * Perhaps that is your point? Your argument is that the "makai" is not the Dark World yet, meaning that it isn't the Dark World in The Wind Waker. That's a fair point, I don't think The Wind Waker uses the term Dark World. However, at the same time, the Dark World IS the makai (Evil Realm), even though it's never called that, simply because it's the same location but at a future point in time.
 * It's clear that he is sealed in the Sacred Realm however, and the makai in this instance is the Sacred Realm, not somewhere else. 00:49, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

You can't quote some Japanese mixed with English text and come up with an argument. Well, I suppose you can, but it isn't factual. Either we take the English as Canon or the Japanese. When you take the English as Canon, then the Dark World is never mentioned during OoT. Just because of the Japanese translated text, we actually know that the "Evil Realm" was supposed to be the Dark World and we already discussed that in the English version the terms used for Makai and the Dark World are interchangeable, which is what caused the confusion in the first place. Also, one time, the Japanese uses the word as a second name for the Dark World which too has been translated as the "Evil Realm" in the English version. I never said, that The Wind Waker story has a Dark World or that it is mentioned. That was just part of my theory that every timeline branch could have a Dark World, which would mean that Ganon rises from it prior to the events of The Wind Waker, but we never see this place. And yes, my point is that the SR in OoT may turn into the Dark World but during the events of OoT it isn't, however, this isn't what this page currently says. The page says that the SR becomes the Dark World once Link pulls the Master Sword.

So here I go again quoting all the important text passages, although nobody will care once English HH is released...

NoA.:"the heart of one who enters it... If an evil heart, the Realm will become full of evil; if pure, the Realm will become a paradise." Jap.: Note: Sacred Realm turns into a Makai if you are evil-hearted

NoA.:"Your spirit remained in the Sacred Realm...and then the Triforce fell into Ganondorf's hands. He went on to invade the Sacred Realm... Ganondorf had become the Evil King, and the Sacred Realm became a world of evil." Jap.: Note: Sacred Realm is referred to as Makai

NoA.:"The six Sages will open the sealed door and lure Ganondorf back into the Sacred Realm. I will then seal the door to the Sacred Realm from this world." Jap.: ''Note: Zelda never mentions the Sacred Realm. The text implies that she wants Ganondorf sealed from this world, which can mean the Sacred Realm, the Light World, the Realm of the Living or the physical World in general.''

NoA.: "Ancient Creators of Hyrule! Now, open the sealed door and send the Evil Incarnation of Darkness into the void of the Evil Realm!!" Jap.: ''Note: Interesting is. The text can't refer to the Sacred Realm as it would sound different. It supports the fact that the Sages and Zelda want Ganondorf sealed from this world in general, meaning to the World of the Dead. Would support Twilight Princess concept of the Twilight Realm(possible Dark World) being the Afterlife, as it is believed by the people.

NoA.: "Thank you, Link... Thanks to you, Ganondorf has been sealed inside the Evil Realm!" Jap.: ''Note: The only time the Dark World is mentioned in Japanese OoT. It is the place which was named a few seconds ago.

And just for the heck of it, I'll copy what I already mentioned earlier, to show how this would affect the Timeline, although all of it is just theory anyway and not part of this debate. Just to show you that it has some foundation...

Ocarina of Time splits everything - the Master Sword, the Triforce, so it would make sense that the there are three Dark Worlds.

Downfall branch -> The Sacred Realm turns into the Dark World, according to HH. It's the Dark World we know from A Link to the Past. Adult branch -> Ganon defeated, sealed into the Dark World, according to OoT. A place we haven't seen and the place where Ganon rises from prior or during The Wind Waker. Child branch -> Ganon executed, no mentioning of the Dark World whatsoever. However, Twilight Princess with the Twilight Realm is in this branch and it can be debated whether the Twilight Realm is the Dark World. 闇の世界 is mentioned in TP.

Now that's some wall of text... Bakeneko 02:37, 26 January 2013 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure if this was brought up, but I'l give my two cents anyways. 魔界/Makai litarally translates to *Demon World*, so the term would really actually refer to a world invested by evil spirits or demonic monsters.  闇の世界/Yami no Sekai would literally translate to, you guess'd it, *World of Darkness* or *Dark World*.  冥府/Meifu translates to *Realm of the Departed* or *Departed Realm*.  --Vaati The Wind Demon 02:55, 26 January 2013 (UTC)


 * What? I didn't quote the Japanese for all of it because it's irrelevant. If you want to compare it, that's fine, but the text is pretty much the same anyway. The POINT I was trying to make is that the Sacred Realm and the place Ganon gets sealed into at the end of the game, the Evil Realm/makai is the same location. It's directly stated in the text by Zelda's quote in both versions. That's all there is to it, I was refuting your earlier argument that he was somehow sealed into a completely different makai at the end. He wasn't. He's sealed in the Sacred Realm, now known as the Evil Realm, presumably becoming the Dark World later in the timeline where Link is defeated.
 * The fact that she refers to "meifu" is irrelevant, think of that as her saying "send him to hell" albeit less... rude sounding. She still refers to the place he's sealed as makai right afterwards, and she still makes reference to the "sealed door". Makai and meifu are not names, they are descriptions, and are therefore somewhat interchangeable. A makai is often also a meifu. 03:10, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Makes sense, though they where referred to as different names, they all had one thing in common, all of them where once known as the Sacred Realm and/or the Golden Land! --Vaati The Wind Demon 03:18, 26 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Seems people just don't want to see it this way. I can't believe, that people still want to tell me that the Dark World and the Sacred Realm are one and the same thing and Ganon got sealed in the SR during the events of OoT. In ALttP, the Dark World and the SR are one the same. I'm wondering if you guys just don't want to understand or I just don't understand what you are trying to say. I think, it's because we may have a different understanding of what the Sacred Realm actually is. Meifu vs. Makai. They are words like in any other language. Don't see how they relate to eachother... . Won't matter once HH is translated... Bakeneko 03:41, 26 January 2013 (UTC)