Talk:Sheik

Corporate form letters
I wrote a letter to Nintendo about Sheik. David Glover announced on behalf of Nintendo, that Sheik's identity is left to the imagination of the players.

"Hello and thank you for contacting Nintendo,

I'm afraid there isn't an answer to your question about Sheik, the character from The Legend of Zelda franchise. Nintendo excels at making sure our fans can get each Heart Piece, weapon, item, and--most importantly--the information required to conquer each dungeon and defeat the final boss. This happens through Nintendo's website (www.nintendo.com), the official Legend of Zelda website (www.zelda.com), as well as Player's Guides and Nintendo Power magazine.

Having said that, there are details about the games that will remain mysteries, left to the active imagination of the player.

Sincerely, David Glover Nintendo of America Inc.

Nintendo's home page: http://www.nintendo.com/ Power Line (Automated Product Info): (425) 885-7529"

- David Glover

Then again, it was sort of the same as this other letter, where I asked them about Link:

"Hello and thank you for contacting Nintendo,

I'm afraid there isn't an answer to your question about Link. Nintendo excels at making sure our fans can get each Heart Piece, weapon, item, and--most importantly--the information required to conquer each dungeon and defeat the final boss. This happens through Nintendo's website (www.nintendo.com), the official Legend of Zelda website (www.zelda.com), as well as Player's Guides and Nintendo Power magazine.

Having said that, there are details about the games that will remain mysteries, left to the active imagination of the player.

Sincerely, David Glover Nintendo of America Inc.

Nintendo's home page: http://www.nintendo.com/ Power Line (Automated Product Info): (425) 885-7529"

- David Glover

Sometimes I wonder if Nintendo cares.


 * So... basically NoA doesn't even know. In fact, probably only the core Zelda team knows, and we all know how easy THEY are to get a hold of. Man, if only my Japanese was a bit better, I'd email Nintendo of Japan. 02:17, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Smash Bros.
Anyone think they can get Sheik's Smash Bros. Melee moves up? And, if the Brawl Zelda is capable of becoming Sheik as well, we should get those moves up, too. I thought having their moves up from the Smash Bros. games was a nice touch. Dinosaur bob 21:59, 5 October 2007 (EDT)


 * Wait a minute, Sheik was originally going to appear in Twilight Princess? Is there any proof? Paper Jorge 03:44, 19 February 2008


 * No well there isn't any proof, but on the official site Sakurai stated that that how Sheik would have looked like if she was going to be in Twilight Princess.--Green 23:46, 18 February 2008 (EST)


 * Well, he simply could have been stating that, that is the appearance of Sheik if she would have been in the game. He wasn't necessary saying that she was going to be in Twilight Princess. Paper Jorge 05:49, 19 February 2008


 * Well that's what I meant. :p --Green 23:53, 18 February 2008 (EST)


 * Oh. Silly me. Paper Jorge 06:16, 19 February 2008


 * Well, what about this quote: "Sheik doesn’t appear in The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess, but we based her model on a design that was drafted up during the development of that game." found here: http://www.smashbros.com/en_us/characters/sheik.html

Yeah, but anyone can argue "Well, it doesn't explicitly state that Sheik was definitely going to be in Twilight Princess, so maybe they just made a design during the development that was completely un-related?" So while Sheik MIGHT have originally been planned to be in Twilight Princess, there's no definitive proof -- only strong evidence. 21:00, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

"He"
We have no evidence that Sheik is male; to the contrary, "he" is more often "she" (the official Zelda site, SSBM...). It would be more prudent to refer to Sheik as a "she", yes? Or else, avoid using third-person singular personal pronouns entirely. I'm going to edit this.


 * " Her  advice and knowledge of the world make  him  a great ally in the Link's quest, as well as the melodies  she  gives Link that allow him to teleport."
 * Can we decide a gender and stick to it please? I realise that this is a thorny subject, but it's clear that for this article to be in any way "encyclopedic" this issue must be correctly dealt with. And, IMO, despite the age of OOT, Sheik's true identity is still a spoiler to younger generations whose first introduction to the game may well be this site. —Adam (talk) 13:07, 9 March 2008 (EDT)


 * Hahaha! That's awesome. I say we stick with "He", honestly, primarily due to what Adam said. I'm cool with any paragraphs dealing with Sheik-is-actually-Zelda using "She" (as long as those paragraphs are appropriately pre-spoiler-tagged), but all others should use "He". Yup yup. --Ando (Talk) 14:25, 9 March 2008 (EDT)


 * Does ZeldaWiki.org follow the basic editing policy of Wikipedia? If it does, it's not necessary to tag anything as a spoiler: an entire article is expected to be in-depth and spoil something, so it's true policy states that it isn't practiced. (Spoiler Policy) Saibh 19:54, 10 March 2008 (EDT)


 * In short, no. Unlike Wikipedia, ZW.org has no Content Disclaimer, or any general spoiler warning, only a basic General disclaimer. As such, the Spoiler warning is used generally to warn readers of information which spoils either the game ending or major plot twist, or for example a character's true identity (e.g. Oshus, KORL, Tetra, Midna, etc). It's not generally used for minor spoilers, as that's basically what all the rest of the information here is! For a better idea of usage, check here. —Adam (talk) 02:31, 11 March 2008 (EDT)

Smash Bros Dojo refers to Sheik as "she", because Shigeru Miyamoto is running the site shouldn't it be she?--Link hero of light 11:11, 27 March 2008 (EDT)


 * Shi... Shigeru Miyamoto isn't running the site. Masahiro Sakurai is the one writing the updates, which then get translated into English by localizers. I just went through the Japanese version of today's update, and, while I'm not INCREDIBLY fluent in the language, I couldn't find a single reference to Sheik's gender at all. The Japanese don't really use pronouns unless they don't know the name of the subject, which in this case they obviously do. This means that it's most likely that any reference to gender in any other language's version is added by the translator. --Ando (T : C) 11:42, 27 March 2008 (EDT)

Ohh, I remember hearing that somewhere, but I'm not used to Japanese names so I got Shigeru Miyamoto and Masahiro Sakurai mixed up.--Link hero of light 17:22, 27 March 2008 (EDT)
 * Besides that, Brawl isn't canon, and neither is Melee. Brawl even less so, because TP Sheik doesn't even exist. Although I think we can all agree that Brawl Sheik is female, yes? Saibh 19:01, 27 March 2008 (EDT)

Just because Sheik doesn't appear in the Twilight Princess doesn't mean TP Zelda can't turn into Sheik.--Link hero of light 19:06, 27 March 2008 (EDT)
 * We have to assume it does. We can't just add things to canon because they never do it, and therefore have the possibility. On that logic, Zelda could be a fairy, or moonlight as a pirate, or actually be a man. That only applies to things like timelines and such, where the dots don't connect. Even then, nothing non-canon can't be construed as such. Or, at least, that's what I think. Saibh 19:18, 27 March 2008 (EDT)

Sheik is both male and female, in a way. Shiek is only a cover for Zelda. Zelda is only disguised. The voice of Sheik is clearly female attempting to sound male. Sheik also keeps the mouth covered up. Sheik wears an outfit that hides the major feminine features. The only major changes between Zelda to Sheik is the eyes, which should be quite easy for the Triforce of Wisdom to accomplish. Sheiks hands are feminine. This leads to the assumption that the Triforce of Wisdom does not transform major physical features. That function is the domain of the Triforce of Power. (Note that the Triforce of Courage does not turn Link into a wolf but rather alters the twilight's effects on him.) Therefore Sheik is most definitely a female disguised as a male.--Matt 00:21, 21 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Sheik's voice isn't "clearly" female trying to sound male... I never got that impression in Ocarina of Time. And, as I said in the Zora page discussion, the Japanese do like to give some slightly androgynous voices to guys. Why that is, I don't know.
 * Yeah, Sheik keeps his mouth covered... so do most fictional ninjas. And people wearing ski masks. Doesn't mean they're hiding their gender.
 * I'm sorry, but I've yet to see an absolutely convincing outfit that makes a girl look like a guy... and I've seen a lot of crossplays in my time. Sheik totally looks like a dude in Ocarina of Time.
 * Quite a bit changes, actually. Eyes, hair color AND hairstyle, clothes, voice, skin color, overall physique... I mean, come on, you can't look at Sheik's head and Zelda's head and tell me that they're not totally different shapes...
 * And so... I don't see why it's so easy to believe that all of the above changes can be done but Zelda turning into a guy isn't... Doesn't seem like that much of a stretch to me. --Ando (T) 00:38, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Changes or not it is still Zelda. Last time I checked Zelda is female. Sheik is meant to look and act male. But nothing will ever change the fact that Zelda is female. Zelda will still have the same mind no matter what form she is in. That means that Sheik's personallity is female. Sheik is male only in form not in mind.--Matt 03:24, 21 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Well... yeah. That's what I meant. While Sheik technically has the mind of a female, Sheik is physically male. I thought you were saying that Sheik was still physically female. Alright then. --Ando (T) 04:35, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, the Triforce of Wisdom does not alter Zelda's mind. Although, the same cannot be said about the Triforce of Power.--Matt 06:10, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

ok, in responce to the fist thing said in this area, there is proof that nintendo wanted you to think shiek was a guy, ruto said "A nice young man named Sheik saved me" or something like that.


 * That was already discussed. Ruto had no way of knowing if Sheik was male or female. So she guessed. Please don't change the article just because you think it should be a certain way. Talk about it first.--Matt 16:41, 6 June 2008 (UTC)


 * How about this. Let's change every instance of the word "he" and the word "she" in the article to "he/she", and of course anything with "him" or "her" to "him/her". This way, the article is consistent. Also, it will not appear that ZeldaWiki.org has any stance of Sheik being male or female. This should quell debates.--Matt 16:51, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

But again, what about those who DON'T know that Sheik is actually Zelda? They'd be seeing "he/she" and thinking "what the crap, Sheik's totally a dude, right? But... WHAT". This would be an issue. I'd rather not have the entire article "Spoiler'd"... --Ando 17:01, 6 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Good point. We might want to think of something. It would be better to have consistency in the article. Maybe we should have the article say male. We could only have one spot in the article be a spoiler. Since most people will instantly think "Sheik is a guy", we should go with male. Most visitors are not going to care about the little details and the inconsistencies with Nintendo. It might just be what we will have to settle with.--Matt 17:06, 6 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I think people that come to this site looking for info about LoZ will end up finding spoilers either they want it or not, so it's annoying having to care about what you write on the discussion page to avoid spoiling info. The article page already has spoiler warnings, so the discussion page should be open to spoiling info. --Fella 00:43, 8 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Now about Sheik's gender. If you stop to think more about Sheik himself/herself you'll see that, in my pont of view, he's not a "real person" but a "character" created by Zelda to fool Ganondorf. So you can say that Zelda, with the intent of meeting Link without been chased by Ganondorf, disguised herself as a male sheikah named Sheik. Sheik is a disguise and obviously resemble Zelda in some ways (like feminine hands and voice) but it's a minor detail, even though Sheik looks like a man too (male fit). --Fella 01:10, 8 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I agree with your argument there, or at least I think I do. If I portray a female character in a play, I may be a male, but the character is still female. I think female pronouns inside the spoiler tags, 'cept those for Super Smash Bros., where Shiek is intended to be female, should be changed to male. Jimbo Jambo 07:18, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Rewrite
I'm not sure I'm cool with this new gender-ambiguous re-write. I mean, we pretty much determined how we want to do it above. Plus, this method completely avoids all pronouns, which exist to make the text not sound repetitive ("Bob saw Bob's dog and picked Bob's dog up and hugged Bob's dog" - compare with "Bob saw his dog, picked her up, and hugged her". See how much easier that is to read?). I understand the idea and I appreciate it, but I'm not sure that it's what's best for the article (not to mention inconsistent with every other article's writing which DOES use pronouns; the lack thereof would certainly confuse people, especially those who don't know Sheik's true identity). Thoughts? 19:07, 13 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I think it is odd too. But I can't think of a better alternative, that would not specify gender. This solution is the best we have at the moment. The thing about using gender pronouns is, you actually have to know the gender to use them. We don't know the gender for certain, so therefore we can't use gender specific pronouns to meet this goal. 19:11, August 13, 2008 (UTC)


 * We may just have to use all male pronouns, like I said above. No instant spoilers. That is better. 19:18, August 13, 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, I thought that the solution we had before worked fairly well. Using "he" except in specific spoiler-tagged sections specifically dealing with the true identity. 19:35, 13 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Maybe use he, yet announce around the top of the article that it's unknown? 20:04, 13 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Hey, Sea, no offense, but... did you even read the above discussion (the "He" section) at all? If we were to state that his gender is unknown, that would confuse and spoil the plot for anyone who doesn't know that Sheik is actually Zelda. This would be bad, which is why it should be confined to a specific, spoiler-tagged section as it was before the re-write. 20:50, 13 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I agree in identifying her as a "he" until her true identity is revealed. (the specific spoiler-tagged sections) Onyx 21:25, 13 August 2008 (UTC)


 * "Hey, Sea, no offense, but... did you even read the above discussion (the "He" section) at all?" - No.


 * "If we were to state that his gender is unknown, that would confuse and spoil the plot for anyone who doesn't know that Sheik is actually Zelda. This would be bad, which is why it should be confined to a specific, spoiler-tagged section as it was before the re-write." - Good idea. 00:40, 14 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Do keep in mind that the "Bob saw Bob's dog, picked Bob's dog up, and hugged Bob's dog" example isn't really all that valid when the name "Sheik" is used sparingly enough that it doesn't sound awkward to use it more than just once in a sentence. In this case, I believe it's alright to always refer to Sheik as "Sheik" instead of "him" or "her." Besides, if you want to use gender-ambiguous pronouns, you'd have to refer to Sheik as "it," and that would seem strange and almost make Sheik sound nonsentient to some, if not only me. I think that the gender-ambiguous rewrite is the best way to keep arguments from being stirred up over Sheik's gender. Personally, I myself believe that Sheik is a girl, but since I want this Wiki to be able to respect both sides of the argument and everyone's opinion, as it should, I say we leave it the way it is. Teamrocketspy621 03:09, 26 August 2008 (UTC)


 * The Wiki was "respecting both sides of the argument" already, by writing in such a way that it uses the information that the player would have up to that point in the game (e.g. believing that Sheik is just a stand-alone guy) until the parts of the article that actually deal with the alternate identity, at which point the gender pronoun switches to "she". You also say that this re-write helps to prevent arguments regarding Sheik's gender, and yet since we implemented the idea detailed above, we haven't had any complaints or arguments about it, except from you.
 * While you may not think so, I believe that the original version was fine and that the current re-write sounds awkward; based on the above posts, others agree with me, and you're outnumbered here by 4 to 1. So while it may be what you want, it's clearly not what the Wiki wants. I'm sorry, but I'm reverting the edits. 04:22, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

gender
your forgeting the magic element. if zelda was from termina then this debate will go on forever but hes/shes not. Dragonstetraforce 23:27, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Sprucing Up for Featured article
This article, is in a little need of work. Being Sheik it is an important article, and I think we should all work on bettering it, to a featured article quality.


 * First things first. We need to add references. 15:53, October 30, 2008 (UTC)

Theme Song Section
Without being able to link to the songs anymore, the Theme song section seems quite short and pointless, especially seen as no other page I've seen has the appropriate theme songs listed as this page does. It just seems like a pointless little entry. Maybe adding it into the other text is better than having a heading of its own. Thoughts. 08:46, 19 November 2008 (UTC)


 * I've always questioned that section to begin with. I don't really see much need for it, so I'd say toss it. I don't see any need to mention any portion of it anywhere. 20:07, 19 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, I've gotten rid of it! 20:42, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Merging
No reasons were given by the person who suggested it, but I definately think that Sheik needs to remain completely separate to Zelda, and shouldn't be merged. Also someone searching the wiki for Sheik who doesn't yet know he's Zelda finds it on the Zelda page would... well that's too massive of a spoiler. So no merge. I'm taking that off the pages too because of spoiler! and yes, I know dedicated Zelda fans who haven't quite reached that in OoT! 03:44, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

A Definitive Gender
While I can understand the reasoning behind not discussing Sheik's true gender until after a spoiler warning I don't know that it's necessary anymore. Ocarina of Time is getting up in years and I'm pretty sure that there isn't anyone left who doesn't know Sheik is Zelda. She does, after all, change from one form to another right in front of the player in both Melee and Brawl. In light of this I think the article should be revised to include the correct pronouns throughout, as well as some type of opening describing Sheik's true nature as a persona of Zelda's. In addition to this, I think the actual Gender section of the article is incorrect. It says that there are no official announcements on the gender of Sheik but in reality both the Melee and Brawl trophies explicitly state her gender as female in both English and Japanese. The trophies don't describe SSB Sheik, who I know is a different character, but instead they directly describe OoT Sheik. Funkenstein23 19:02, 10 June 2009


 * Since most fans don't consider the Smash Bros. series as cannon, saying Sheik is a female just because the trophy descriptions say so is not really an adequate source. We can't really say neither pronouns are correct because that depends on what people think, so labeling Sheik as a "she" is far from being 100% right. Ruto herself calls Sheik a "he," which comes straight from the text dump of Ocarina of Time, and I would consider that to be far more reliable than a trophy description of a non-cannon series. But that's just me. :P Dany36 17:07, 11 June 2009 (UTC)


 * But whether or not the Smash series is canon is irrelevant. The sole purpose of trophy information is to describe established canon about previous titles. The Sheik described in the Melee and Brawl trophies is not the Melee and Brawl Sheik. It's the original one from OoT, being described in what is essentially a virtual museum. This is, in effect, a final word on Nintendo's part on their characters gender and because the character is theirs it is up to them what gender she is, it isn't, as you say, a matter of opinion on the player's part. Also, Ruto calling Sheik a man was accurately explained in the article. She had no way of knowing what gender Sheik was, and simply took a guess and came up with man. Considering that Zelda was essentially cross-dressing I'd say that is a reasonable mistake. Funkenstein23


 * The article does need to establish consistency as to whether or not Sheik is female or male. Ruto did not know that Sheik was Zelda, so her word on the matter cannot be considered definitive. It's like in Star Wars when Obi-Wan lied to Luke about Darth Vader killing his father when Darth Vader was his father. Since the spoilers for OoT are largely obsolete, the game being over ten years old now, I say that all of the pronouns in the article should be switched to the female form, except for the manga since he's male in that one. Nintendo exclusively refers to Sheik as female now, since they know that everybody knows the ending of OoT. Ganondorfdude11 21:07, 30 August 2009 (UTC)


 * At this point, I agree. Is anyone ever surprised anymore that Bruce Willis is a ghost? I have a real shocker for you: Tyler Durden isn't real! Snape kills Dumbledore! The mother is the son! Soylent Green is made of people! :D The general argument of this article isn't whether Sheik is male or female, but whether we should "spoil" it. There's nothing left to spoil. Twilight Princess can be spoiled, not Ocarina of Time. I think the article should refer to Sheik as she, unless someone can come up with a non-silly reason for Zelda to remove her ovaries, vagina, fallopian tubes, uterus, breasts, change the production of estrogen and testosterone in her brain, and give herself a penis and testicles. Among other things. Really, now, a jockstrap and some bandages would do the same trick. Saibh 19:35, 22 September 2009 (UTC)