Talk:Demise

Ghirahim and Demise relations
Now before I change anything, I wanted to check this first. What I purpose is that the sword that Demise uses at the end of the game IS Ghirahim. As far fetched as it may seem consider this: in Ghirahim's final fight with Link, he bears a striking resemblance to Fi in that his body his eyes are non-existant and his features are metallic. Additionally in one shot Ghirahim reveals himself to be "a weapon without mercy". In this shot he bears a striking resemblance to the sword that Demise uses. Also, note how he refers to Demise as his master, similar to the way Fi refers to Link as her master.

So before I change this, I wanted to run this by the Wiki to see if this made sense. 19:53, 18 November 2011 (EST)
 * Also I used this video for reference: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4cqQI6MZjk It shows the third fight between Link and Ghirahim. 19:54, 18 November 2011 (EST)
 * Ghirahim is certainly related to Demise's sword, if not necessarily it exactly. When Demise is revived, he pulls his sword straight out of Ghirahim's chest as Ghirahim laughs.  After that, Demise absorbs Ghirahim into the sword.  So at the very least, Ghirahim is the spirit of Demise's sword in the same way that Fi is the spirit of the Master Sword. LinkIII816 00:25, 19 November 2011 (EST)

Attack Patterns
I'm just checking all my facts before I post, has anyone else noticed he only attacks with his sword while you shield is down? If it's up he just punches until you lower your shield and get ready to attack. Foxdude54 20:01, 10 January 2012 (EST)


 * Yes, i noticed that, me too. Mabybe we should add that in the trivia or something --Niklas 17:27, 23 January 2012 (EST)

First Fatal Blow: Possible or Impossible
Demise always dodges the first fatal blow, or does he? I actually killed him with the first Fatal Blow, and all 17 hearts. (I was on Lightning Round) I beat him with an impossible time of 0:51:89 seconds, too. I only got my game on my B-Day and beat the entire thing in a total of ONE FULL DAY or 23:14:56 hrs. Smasher 17:06, 5 February 2012 (EST)Smasher
 * I don't suppose you have this on film or anything? I've heard from multiple sources that Demise is specifically coded to get up before you land the first time no matter how fast you are.


 * Also, under 52 seconds is hardly an impossible time. The current world record (and I can provide video evidence backing this up, if you're curious) is under 30 seconds. --Osteoderm Jacket 01:00, 18 March 2012 (EDT)


 * There's a way to do it. ...Kind of. If you don't even attempt the Fatal Blow the first time you knock him down, then you can land it the second time he falls, which is the first time you've attempted the Fatal Blow. The aforementioned 30 second guy did that. But on the first time he falls down, you really can't land it no matter what. Turtleman579  (talk) 03:08, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Connection to all other antagonists
I know there is a connection between Demise and Ganon, but what about the other antagonists, such as Bellum, Veran, Malladus, Onox, etc? Are they all incarnations of Demise? Rainbow Dash 21:11, 15 March 2012 (EDT)
 * Considering it was Vaati and not Ganon who was tormenting Link and Zelda after Skyward Sword (when logically the curse would take place) I'd say that is likely that all other antagonist also fall under this curse. --Heroofstuff 21:27, 15 March 2012 (EDT)
 * We all just assumed they meant Ganon; they do look kinda similar and all. But yeah, unless I'm mistaken, the nature of Demise's "incarnations" is never specified, so it is possible. Unless Hyrule Historia says something about this? 15:11, 17 March 2012 (EDT)
 * This is a good point. It's entirely possible that the other villains could be carrying out Demise's curse. Granted, the line does say "an incarnation", implying one being, but we shouldn't put too much weight on that one word, because a) that doesn't necessarily mean it's always the same one, and b) (warning: weeaboo-ish argument approaching) it could be an incidental consequence of localization. The line probably wouldn't have casually implied a single incarnation in Japanese (as opposed to directly and deliberately stating that there would only be one), as that language lacks grammatical number. --Osteoderm Jacket 00:58, 18 March 2012 (EDT)
 * Malladus cannot be an incarnation of Demise's hatred. He was alive (and sealed) before TWW Ganon was killed. Malladus was sealed a long time before Tetra established the new kingdom.
 * Regarding Vaati, since he is sealed during OoT, shouldn't this mean that had Demise's hatred corrupted him, it would be sealed along him? Then how would Demise's hatred "corrupt" Ganondorf? I don't think the idea is well supported. Zeldafan1982 01:29, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

Ganon
I know this is going to sound ridiculous, but do we have any concrete evidence that Ganon really is the reincarnation of Demise? I mean, there are some HEAVY hints going on, but it has never been stated outright. It's true that there's the physical resemblance and the fact that Ganondorf is constantly revived, but Vaati had been revived at one point as well, let's not forget that. Dekler 05:53, 22 June 2012 (EDT)


 * Demise's final words are that an incarnation of his hatred will follow them for eternity. Mind, who's the most common baddie?
 * When the game was about to be released, it was said that it really connects in with Ocarina of Time, but not all that much until the end. They also said that it will have to do with the creation of Ganondorf. It really isn't hard to make the connection, but, I'll go into it a little bit more...
 * Ganondorf himself was always consumed with power and greed as well as a general lack of concern for the lives of others (despite what he says in The Wind Waker). This could easily be a remnant of his past life as Demise. Ganon, moreso, has always sort of been a being of hatred and destruction, so it's much more likely that Ganon is more representative of Demise's reincarnation than Ganondorf himself. 09:34, 22 June 2012 (EDT)


 * whoa whoa whoa wait; "despite what he says in The Wind Waker? What he says is canon information. I'm really not comfortable with how you just dismissed his last shred of humanity as simply not true. Dekler 08:14, 30 August 2012 (EDT)


 * "Those like you... Those who share the blood of the goddess and the spirit of the hero... They are eternally bound to this curse. An incarnation of my hatred shall ever follow your kind, dooming them to wander a blood-soaked sea of darkness for all time!" —Demise
 * With that statement in mind, consider this: every single confrontation the Twilight Princess incarnations of Link and Zelda face are a result of Ganon's actions—Zant was only able to do what he did with Ganon's help. If Ganon has no relation to Demise whatsoever, that means the Link and Zelda from TP get off scot-free from Demise's curse. Even if every other major antagonist except Ganon is an incarnation of Demise, the above statement becomes untrue.


 * So no, it is never explicitly stated that Ganon is Demise incarnate. But look at it from this angle: Ganon not being an incarnation of Demise is inconsistent with what is explicitly stated. Logically, Ganon must be an incarnation of Demise if his threat is to be taken seriously. Whether other antagonists are too is a different story.  18:07, 30 August 2012 (EDT)


 * Just to drive the point home, Hyrule Historia states outright that his red hair was a reference to Ganondorf. I'll hunt out the quote from Glitterberri's site later, but I've added it to the trivia. Ganon is the only antagonist with red hair like that, too (Malladus not quite, because Cole is the one with red hair), plus a specific weakness to the Master Sword (though, it's interesting to note that Ganon usually requires more than just the Master Sword to be defeated, does that make him stronger than Demise? Perhaps!). 19:20, 30 August 2012 (EDT)


 * Okay, so it's pretty clear that Ganon is an incarnation of Demise. But that doesn't necessarily have to exclude other major antagonists, such as Malladus, who chooses to be incarnated as a boar just like Ganon. Not to mention Demise has been stated by Fi to be the source of all monsters. As of now, I think it's highly likely, considering their equal status as demon kings, that Malladus is an incarnation of Demise, after Ganon(dorf) was defeated in the Wind Waker.Dekler 10:30, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

Majora theory
My belief is that Majora is the Terminian counterpart of Demise. Whereas Ganon was just a corrupt ambitious man as evidenced in the Windwaker, Demise is a manifestation of hatred, a complete monster bordering on being a humanized Eldritch Abomination. It's the same with Majora; whatever is inside that mask, it is pure evil. It really did not have any other wishes than to destroy the world. Both have a way of talking with an otherworldly arrogance, fully aware of their enormous demonic power, although Majora's Mask doesn't talk all that much.


 * They may be dimensional counterparts, but with the section above, I believe I've completely established that Demise is Ganon. They have similarities, but that doesn't mean they're the same entity. We're bordering conjecture at this point, but Majora's Mask was initially created by a dark tribe for torturing people.
 * The people of the tribe eventually sealed away the mask, fearing the power inside. However, who can say that the evil inside the mask isn't derived from the hatred and despair caused by the tribe's dark rituals, an imprint of sorts? Revenge sought by the restless souls?
 * Also, always remember to sign your posts with four tildes ( ~ )! :) 09:34, 22 June 2012 (EDT)


 * I can understand how Ganon and Demise are much more related, but I think it was somewhere said that Demise was the source of all evil, so I'm still a bit torn seeing as Majora's Mask is definitely an incarnation of nothing but evil. Dekler 08:17, 30 August 2012 (EDT)


 * "Counterpart" and "incarnation" are two different things. In either case, there is no conclusive evidence that ties Demise to Majora specifically. However, I think it should be noted in this article that it is possible for other antagonists of the series to also be incarnations of Demise. We can't afford to be any more specific than that with the information we have at the moment. 18:22, 30 August 2012 (EDT)

Gender
I don't agree with labelling Demise as male. Fi uses the pronoun "it," and I would be more inclined to take what she says as true over what the other characters say, considering that she was around when Demise first came. 21:13, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
 * On top of that (while perhaps less important), his title is that of a king, inherently masculine. I would consider the word of Zelda/Hylia and Ghirahim above Fi's, as it seems more likely that the former two have actually been in his presence. Fi was created for the sole purpose of guiding the chosen hero, so it's possible that it hasn't even met Demise in person. 22:30, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
 * On top of that (while perhaps less important), his title is that of a king, inherently masculine. I would consider the word of Zelda/Hylia and Ghirahim above Fi's, as it seems more likely that the former two have actually been in his presence. Fi was created for the sole purpose of guiding the chosen hero, so it's possible that it hasn't even met Demise in person. 22:30, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
 * On top of that (while perhaps less important), his title is that of a king, inherently masculine. I would consider the word of Zelda/Hylia and Ghirahim above Fi's, as it seems more likely that the former two have actually been in his presence. Fi was created for the sole purpose of guiding the chosen hero, so it's possible that it hasn't even met Demise in person. 22:30, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
 * On top of that (while perhaps less important), his title is that of a king, inherently masculine. I would consider the word of Zelda/Hylia and Ghirahim above Fi's, as it seems more likely that the former two have actually been in his presence. Fi was created for the sole purpose of guiding the chosen hero, so it's possible that it hasn't even met Demise in person. 22:30, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

Demise's "curse"
I think it makes more sense if Demise doesn't literally put a curse on Zelda and Link, but rather simply tells them that their successors will encounter an incarnation of his hatred again and again. If you agree with this non-literal interpretation of the curse then we can change the relevant part. Zeldafan1982 02:04, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I actually agree, he never mentions anything about a curse... I don't think. It's definitely not that literal. But does Hyrule Historia mention anything about it? 18:36, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, I found this on page 76: "However, the destruction of Demise was not the end of the battle. It was the beginning of a curse: a never-ending cycle of the reincarnation of the Demon King, whose hatred for those with the blood of the Goddess and the Spirit of the Hero is everlasting." And I also found this: "Impa returns to the past and continues to look after the Master Sword and protect it from the curse." While the first quote doesn't really help much, the second one does make the "curse" appear quite a bit more literal. 19:30, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Oh, well fair enough, haha. I wonder what the Japanese text says, but I suppose the curse is fairly literal after all. 22:55, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
 * It seems that the second quote has been mistranslated. Impa stayed in the past, and two fan translations don't mention the curse:


 * 1st) From GlitterBerri's site (link): "Fi also fulfilled her role and her contract with Link was dissolved. The Master Sword was returned to its pedestal, and enters a long slumber along with Fi. Impa stays in the Past in order to watch over the sword, ensuring the complete eradication of Demise’s residual consciousness."


 * 2nd) Baton of the Wind's (link): "Fai had finished her mission as well, whose contract with Link was finished. He returned the Master Sword to its pedestal, where Fai would go into slumber. Impa, having made sure of the extinction of the Man of the End, stayed in the era of the past to watch over the sword."


 * Also here's another translation of Demise's final words, I had saved the thread from ZU which seems to have been lost after the crash: "Human! Having been able to overcome me... You are a strong human!! Splendid. But, remember... This is not over... My hatred... The curse of the Demon Tribe... They shall continuously go on reincarnating until the end of all times. Do not forget it! I shall repeat it!! You people shall... You people who possess the blood of the Goddess and the soul of hero shall... forever be unable to escape from this curse! This hatred and grudge... Its evolution shall forever painfully wander across this blood-stained "Dark Sea" along with you lowlifes forever!!"


 * At some point, I interpreted the curse literally and tried to reconcile the fact that when e.g. Vaati appears, a Link appears as well, although Vaati is not an incarnation of Demise's hatred. The result was a rather awkward theory. Demise binding SS Link's and Zelda's souls to his hatred seems a bit too much. I just can't think of what exactly the curse might be if it is taken literally.. The curse seems to me to be a "cursed" fate for the various Links and Zeldas that encounter an incarnation of his hatred (Ganon basically) in the future. Zeldafan1982 23:57, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

Interloper King?
In TP, Midna mentions the fact that the Interlopers "lost [their] king to... greed", but the nature of this king is not delved into. Meanwhile, Demise (or at least the Imprisoned) was shown to break apart and coalesce into his seal in almost exactly the same manner as the Fused Shadow fragments, and his hair in both forms resembles fragmenting shards of Twilight. It may also be worth mentioning that, before the final battle, Ghirahim erected a barrier around the Sealed Grounds, and the pegs studding that barrier looked very similar to the spears of light Midna wielded in her Fused Shadow form. Based on all this, is it possible, and so worth mentioning, that Demise may have been the "lost" Interloper king, and gave the Interlopers their power? Setras 04:07, 20 March 2013 (UTC)


 * It's an interesting theory. The only problem is Hyrule Historia seems to say on page 113 that the Interlopers only came around long after the events of Skyward Sword:

"Long, long ago, the people of the world were filled with piety, and the land knew many years of peace. Before long, however, conflict began to arise in the sacred realm called Hyrule. People began to appear who were proficient with magic, and they attempted to control this sacred realm with their powers. The gods dispatched four Light Spirits, who sealed the usurpers' magic into Fused Shadows. . ."


 * For that reason, I don't think this theory can be added to any mainspace wiki article. 12:31, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

Well, the wording there actually seems to leave the timeframe ambiguous. The time period of "long, long ago" could refer to the period just before the Era of Chaos, while the Era of Chaos occured "before long". During the Era of Chaos, the Interlopers could have just been one of the many invading forces trying to seize the Triforce, although they had more success and left a more lasting impression. And even if the Interloper War did occur much later than Skyward Sword, this still doesn't preclude the Interlopers from perhaps being descended from Demise's servants. Setras 13:16, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
 * There are many quotes from TP that, unfortunately, were not translated properly. Here's a re-translation of this quote (link):
 * "教えてやるよ・・・オマエが長として 認められなかったのは、その目だ！ 瞳の奥に潜む欲望が、古代の一族のように 力に支配されると　王は危懼したからさ！
 * jacensolo06: I’ll tell you why you weren’t recognized as leader…It was those eyes! It was because desire lurks in the depths of your eyes and the king feared one who would be ruled by power like the ancient clan was.


 * Jumbie: I'll have you know... The reason why you were not accepted in the position of the leader is your eyes! Because the king feared that desire lying hidden in your pupils, due to which the clan of ancient times got controlled by power!


 * NOA: Traitors, ha! You want to know why none would call you king? It was your eyes, Zant. All saw it, a lust for power burning in your pupils... Did you think we'd forget our ancestors lost their king to such greed?" Zeldafan1982 22:06, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

Ah. Well that's unfortunate. Thanks for setting the record straight, though! Setras 22:59, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

Closely Resembles...
I've been thinking this since I first faced Demise. He looks a lot like Berserker from Fate/stay night! Seriously, look at this:

They're even standing in a similar position! Anyone else notice this? Turtleman579 (talk) 03:08, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Yamikawa's retranslation with japanese script..
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-eu9o8-MRUnV6Rpuzu6YSuM0Ue3CrYiKwRzISRVvFHQ/edit

In addition, here is an explanation about Demise's name. There is a Japanese pun involved in his name which was lost in translation:

Yamikawa said:

"Shueen" normally means "end" or "apocalypse", so it should be the "Apocalyptic One". Yet when Zelda speaks of him during your reunion in the past (Hylia's Temple), she mentions his name in the context of "The Shuuen no Mono which desired to rule the world". There, according to my Japanese teacher (a Japanese from Oosaka himself) told me that there was a trick: given how this guy wanted to "rule" then the meaning changed to that of "ruler" or "tyrant", so "Tyrannical Being" is a   correct translation. In short: in Japan he's know as either "Demon King" or "Tyrannical Being" yet he doesn't have a "name" per se.

Thanatos-Zero (talk) 14:30, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Arg, stupid browser lost my edit comment: anyway, it's way too much to include every version of that quote at the beginning; I'll try to reintroduce the material you added sometime today, but in the meantime, would you mind providing the Japanese quote (kana only) for the "Demon Tribe's World" and Fi's quote about Demise being the father of all demons?KrytenKoro (talk) 16:47, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Anyway, as far as what Yamikawa said, WWWJDIC does not list any homophones of Shuuen that mean anything other than "Demise" or "end"; the kanji specifically used in the game are specific to "Demise", and would be translated to something like "The Demise", "The One of Demise", "The One Who Brings Demise", or slightly less literally, "The Demise-bringer". Personally, I'm going with "The Demise" as the best fit for the grammar and context (i.e., using "Demise" as a name which implies he'll bring it to you). "Tyrant" would be Boukun or Senshu, so I'm a bit wary of accepting this claim. I'm going to revise Yamikawa's translation of the quote as well, as it has some clunky bits. Do we have a template for displaying the localization, literal translation, romaji, and kana for a quote? We really should.KrytenKoro (talk) 16:57, 10 January 2014 (UTC)


 * 終焉(P); 終えん 【しゅうえん】 (n) demise; (P) [Edit][L][G][GI][S][A][W] [JW] [L][G][GI][S][A][JW]
 * 周縁 【しゅうえん】 (n,adj-no) fringe; rim [Edit][L][G][GI][S][A][JW]
 * 終演 【しゅうえん】 (n,vs) end of a performance [Edit] [V][Ex][L][G][GI][S][A]
 * 終園式 【しゅうえんしき】 (n) kindergarten closing ceremony (at end of school year in March, before spring break) [Edit][G][GI][S][A]
 * 周縁部 【しゅうえんぶ】 (n) periphery; margin; rim; penumbra [Edit][G][GI][S][A]

Unfortunatly, I have no access to the Zelda Universe's forum now, but I have found another site which has Yamikawa's translation. http://forums.zeldainformer.com/threads/skyward-sword-text-retranslations-demise-ghirahim.9647/

Reading the comments I can comfirm that your doubts are justified. The retranslation is apparently flawed. As for the Demon Tribe's world, it is mentioned by Demise himself, but the context makes it more appear like the world is already his own. However for Fi's comment, I still need access for the forum, so I can look for what she says about the place in which the final battle takes place.

"だが魔族の世に抗う意があると言うなら... 我の後を追って来い.少しであれば 待っていてやろう. Daga mazoku no yo ni aragau i ga aru to iunonara... Ware no ato wo ottekoi. Sukoshi deareba matteiyarou...

I do not care if you value your life and run away. Go ahead and weep like a human during the little time left before I rule the world... But if you claim of having the courage to step into the Demon Tribe's world, then... Come after me. I shall wait for a little while."

- Demise NoJ version with Yamikawa translation

"If you fear for your life, do not follow me. You can spend what little time your world has left cowering and crying, as befits your kind. But if you truly desire to raise your blade against the world I would build, come for me. I've waited eons to return. I can spare a few more moments to let you decide."

- Demise NoA version

Thanatos-Zero (talk) 19:34, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Okay, in that case -- Ma-zoku is kind of weird to translate, because although the -zoku literally means "tribe", it's...well, it's similar to the suffix used for French-language and French-nationality. In Japanese, you'd literally translate them as above, but in English, you'd say "French" and "the French". Ma-zoku no Sekai would more naturally be translated as "World of Demons" or "Demon(s') World".
 * Thanks for your help with this. I'll try to have a draft up by the end of the day, but if I don't, go ahead and revert my reversion and I'll do my new version when I get time. Sound good?KrytenKoro (talk) 20:06, 10 January 2014 (UTC)


 * If I'm reading this right, the final battle actually takes place in the Demon Tribe's world? That's pretty interesting.
 * By the way KrytenKoro, mazoku is pretty common in anime and games. It's often translated as monster but demon is a much better translation. The demon race in Slayers is called mazoku and they too have a Demon King. Agahnim referred to mazoku all the way back in A Link to the Past. This was translated as "tribe of evil".


 * しょせん伝説の『勇者』も『黄金の力』を持つ、われらが魔族には、かないませんか. (Original)
 * So, in the end, is even the legendary "Hero" is no match for we demons who hold the "Golden Power". (Literal translation)
 * After all, the legendary Hero cannot defeat us, the tribe of evil, when we are armed with the Power of Gold. (SNES translation)


 * Sahasrahla also uses this term to refer to who the Knights of Hyrule fought during the Imprisoning War. I suspect it is used in many other games in the series too.


 * Also, I have to add that it is interesting that Demise has no real name in the Japanese version, and that he is described as looking different in different eras. The fact that he is nameless only strengthens his connection to Ganon. It could be argued that in the Japanese version, he IS Ganon, just without yet having a human name. 00:43, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
 * I think you're responding to my edit on the Demon page, and yeah, that's definitely something we should cover on that page as a past name. We should check the Japanese terms for the Interlopers, Dark Tribe, and others to see if we've been needlessly disambiguating them as well, because this means the "Demon" page is missing a ton of relevant info.
 * If you're responding to my comment on this page, I'm not disagreeing with the existence of the Ma-zoku, only saying that the term would be more fluidly translated as "the Demons" rather than "the Demon Tribe", just as we call the Gorons, the Gorons, rather than "the Goron Tribe".
 * Ain't it lovely when the fandom invests so much time in theories that had simple answers if people just dug harder? Arg.KrytenKoro (talk) 03:25, 11 January 2014 (UTC)


 * I haven't actually visited the Demon page recently, I was simply offering my knowledge on mazoku since it was brought up, haha. And you're right, "demon tribe" is probably only good to use only if we did the same for the others. I don't think the games ever call them demon tribe anyway, though it does call them demons here and there I think. The problem is that it's a collective term for ALL monsters and doesn't really apply to a specific race, as such. It has a little bit of a complicated usage. You wouldn't call a Moblin a demon, but a Moblin serving Ganon in ALttP is definitely part of the demon tribe. 03:56, 11 January 2014 (UTC)