Talk:Sage

The Wind Waker Sages
There is the theory, that the mastersword should have needed three(!) sages to power up its holy magic and that three dungeons had to be found. On the one hand we know, that makar is the sage of wind, referring to the goddes farore, who is known for being compared to the elements forest and wind and has its dedicated temple of wind. Medli on the other hand is the sage of earth, which is referred to din, goddes of fire and earth and also is housed in the temple of earth. So the one sage representing nayru is missing! This sage should feature elements like water/ ice and time and a respective temple. I think, that we already have been in this time based temple and have found the sage of time! I'm talking about hyrule castle, which is under the ocean! So the respective elements of time and water are featured as the frozen time and the fact, that the castle is underwater. So hyrule castle stands for the "third time based dungeon". Then we also find here the mastersword, which may have lost its powers to repell evil, but still posseses its power of time, so a mastersword sage must be praying there for this power to be intact. I heavily assume that one, to be the king himself, later on maybe passing his status to the awakened zelda. There are many similarities in the structure of the mastersword dungeons. Both have an upper entrence and a circular basement, where a sage is resting to pray. The hyrule castle is, too, entered from the very above and zelda stays in the deepest circular shaped floor in the castle, where once the masterswor was, maybe even praying for its power? (Also, it is implied in oot, that zelda is the sage of time. She is the holder of the triforce of wisdom both in oot and ww, meaning she is the person most representing the feature of laws, such as natural laws like time!) hero of courage

Twilight Princess
"temporary destruction of the Sage of Water" - It wasn't killed? I can't remember having seen this sage after the flashback-cutscene in which it was (temporary) killed.IfIHaveTo 02:12, 12 November 2007 (EST)

It was killed. The only remaining piece of the Sage was its mask and it's symbol was destroyed in the cut scene.

The Sages in Twilight Princess sound a lot like the Twilight beings, you save from becoming Shadow Beasts in the Twilight Realm. A connecting maybe?


 * What now? I don't see where you're getting the idea that the TP sages are possibly Twilight creatures. Sources? --Ando 14:16, 31 January 2008 (EST)


 * I think he's refering to the moaning sound both make. Though I agree they might sound similar if that's what you meant, I think it's ilogical to assume a conection based on this alone, seeing how otherwise the sages are completely and utterly unrelated. Onen 18:04, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Oh this is really hard...I mean you cannot really say that the sage was killed, since it never really was "alive" from the beginning, it was sth. spirit-like. But after ganondorfs fury revenge attack it surely disappeared! It frustrates me, because this means the sage of water really is lost and will never come back in the future! Or maybe the sages can come back in an evolved way, reincarnated with another spiritual power(e.g. if you look at wind waker the zora laruto isn't a sage of water, as most would expect to fit-instead she is a sage of the earth!) And what is the most frightening: What will happen to the Zoras, Zoras Domain and the lakebed Teempel if they loose their sage? Will they eventually die out? Or does this have any other effect on the zoras?-okay- The throne room and zoras river were frozen, but it's a bit unrealistic that they remained frozen during the time ganondorf was imprisoned in the twilight and even before zant came to envade hyrule... BTW, what happened to the Kokiri in Twilight Princess? They are nowhere to be found-right?! So my theory is, that if ganondorf had killed the sage of forest instead of the water sage, it would explain much more the disappearance of them! Maybe...

I'm really tired and must sleep now... your Hero of Courage


 * If the Wind Waker has taught us anything, it's that death does not stop a sage from passing on their duties to another person. 00:13, 10 September 2010 (EDT)

Sages Alive or Dead?
I've been wondering, before Darunia becomes a sage in OoT, he fights Volvagia. So did he die? I always thought he did and that all the sages died becoming sages, and controlled things through the afterlife?


 * First of all, you only needed one copy of this section. Now you do have a point. But I don't think that we can ever be sure one way or another.--Matt 01:28, 3 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Can't be. I don't have any quotes onhand but, I remember something about all of the other Sages have been killed/destroyed by Ganondorf. And then you have the dead sages of WW.Axiomist 03:39, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I think the intended meaning was that the sages all died before they awoke. Like Darunia dies when fighting Volvagia, Saria dies in the Forest Temple, etc. There is no evidence either way.--Matt 17:46, 4 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't think they're dead, except for Rauru. In the credits you can see Saria, Ruto, Darunia, Impa, and Nabooru on death mountain. of course this could possible be that when the became sages they were revived, but then why wouldn't Rauru be there? I believe Rauru confirmed he was dead, but I'm not 100% sure... also, if they died before they could awake then why didn't Zelda die? BanaBana 18:50, 31 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Zelda wouldn't have died for multiple reasons:


 * Bad storytelling. The creators simply did not kill Zelda because she was a much more important character.
 * Zelda was never forced to actually fight a boss and thus did not have the opportunity to be killed.
 * Perhaps none of the characters died. Though I may be overthinking it a little here, it's to be noted that link dies multiple times during his adventure. Perhaps he simply gets K.O. and remains alive after being killed, and the other sages did similarly. You physically meet Darunia and Ruto outside of the Chamber of The Sages, and it's a pretty "symmetrical" storyline.
 * Any other reasons. --Stalkid 08:08, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

Sages
Sages from OoT and their possible descendants

Princess Zelda- Princess Zelda in ALttP

Rauru- Sahasrahla, The Loyal Sage

Saria- Sage in Kakariko Village

Darunia- Sage on Death Mountain

Ruto- ???

Impa- Impa, Sage in Kakariko Village, Sahasrahla

Nabooru- Aginah, Sahasrahla

Okey, I came to some other conclusions, I don't believe the Sages are immortal because if they were, the sages from OoT would still be alive in TP, though I find it hard to believe the Sage of Water was really killed by Gannondork:) in TP. How can you kill a spirit? Lets just leave that one up in the air for a moment.

Secondly, The Sages can marry as Princess Zelda in ALttP is definitely the descendant of the aforementioned Zelda in OoT.

Third, how we got to the etheral sages in TP, I have no idea. I'm just gonna go with what the wiki said on that one.

Fourth, There is so much contradiction with the sages it would be hard to tell fact from fiction. Hopefully Ando found something better:/

P.S. If anyone cares, I found this on Zelda Legends-- 22:29, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Sage Death
Well, I think that they wouldn't be immortal as well. They're powerful beings, though. No ordinary person could kill them. However, perhaps someone with, say, the Triforce of Power? That might be the edge needed to kill a sage. 21:14, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Sage Timeline Discrepancies
The (confirmed) timeline is as such: child - MM - TP OoT-< adult - TWW - PH In the child timeline, the sages were never awakened (young Link didn't awaken the sages in OoT -- adult Link did), which would be why the OoT sages did not appear in TP. Who are the TP sages then? It's a good question, one I've no answer for. In the adult timeline, however, the sages WERE awakened, hence the references to them in TWW.

Not sure about where ALttP might go... :/ 21:14, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

If the Sages of TP are spirts that weren't awakened by Adult Link in OoT why does the Sage of Light look like a spirit? Rauru was "awake" before Link awoke as an Adult. --Jzime


 * The explanation is that the Sages in Twilight Princess are ethereal spirits. When a sage awakens, the spirit is inhabits the his/her body. But there was nothing preventing the Sages in Ocarina of Time from awakening in the child line. Ganondorf messed up the temples in the adult line and that prevented the Sages from hearing the awakening call. In the child line, the Ganondorf was captured before he could screw up the temples. So they all could have awakened. but the spirits would have still been separate. If that doesn't make sense, then blame Nintendo for messing it up. 19:12, October 30, 2008 (UTC)

Sage Marriage / Reproduction
Mmm... Yeah, they'd likely have to in order to pass on the sage lineage, hence several comments made in TWW: Though some might argue that "bloodline" means "the power of the sage", but that makes no sense -- I always figured that "carrying on a bloodline" was done by an actual DNA-related descendant. 21:14, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Missing section
I kind of feel like this page is missing a section... Princess Zelda! I mean, she's the Seventh Sage/Maiden in ALttP, OoT and FSA and as such is quite a large plot element, yet she barely gets a mention in this article! I've half a mind to create a new section and stub it, thought that would temporarily disqualify this from becoming Featured (and others may think I'm over-stressing the importance of this.) I just think it's a gaping hole in the information... 19:45, 4 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Yeah, that is leaving out a rather big plot in the article :/ I guess we need to work on that. I would add some information, but I have not played the said games that she appears in. Not sure how much I could add to that. 20:19, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

Zelda's tutors?
The Japanese version of Twilight Princess does not mention that the Sages were Zelda's tutors. That was an invention of the translation team. In the Japanese version, Auru was her tutor. Should this be marked as a version discrepancy?Ganondorfdude11 07:48, 4 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm going to have to refer you to the Zelda Wiki Quality Standards Page. Note the fifth point in the Language and Localization section. This is something that you need to bare in mind throughout all of your edits across Zelda Wiki. Also, this is not a matter that pertains to individual views of canon, but rather to Zelda Wiki policy. 09:34, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

First, Second, etc
The use of 'First" when referring to the Sages is somewhat ambiguous. It could be the LttP sages, OoT's awakened sages, or the ancient sages referred to by Rauru and that pesky Gossip Stone on Kaepora Gaebora. The page has gone from being a great work to an incredible one, by the way. 17:57, 25 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Point, I'll change it later to something less ambiguous (been gone all day and have to sleep now). Thanks for the support.IfIHaveTo 20:58, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Ancient Sages
Is there a reason why the Ancient Sages don't have their own section (or article)? I only ask because I was going to add that Zelda says the Ancient Sages crafted the Master Sword: "There you will find the blade of evil's bane that was crafted by the wisdom of the ancient sages...the Master Sword." But I can't find a nice place to put that, really. SO, the reason I'm thinking about all this is: The Ancient Sages made the Master Sword, which we now know was originally the Skyward Sword, apparently, so this new game is going to shed a lot of light on them, I hope.

WHOA... THAT MEANS Kaepora Gaebora helped make the Master--err, Skyward Sword! How crazy is that. O_O

Anyway. Yeah. Should they get their own article, or will they be slapped into this one? I mean "Ancient Sages" redirects here, but there's nothing on them really... They're often refered to as an independent group, so I'd lean towards their own article, especially given that this one is pretty long already... on the other hand, their appearance (or lack of appearance) in Skyward Sword will probably help make the decision apparent, but I don't want to wait til 2011 to work on it. =P What are everyone's thoughts? 21:04, 16 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Hmmm...well, the Sage article is sort of interesting in the way that it's organized. Like, the Seven Maidens from ALttP don't have their own section, and same thing with the Seven Sages from OoT. So perhaps you could put the Ancient sages before the introduction to ALttP since the Ancient Sages are talked about in the manual and not in the actual introduction. Dany36 15:43, 17 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I guess the reason I'm confused about how to write this is the Ancient Sages are mentioned in several games, but (unless they debut in Skyward Sword) they haven't made an actual appearance anywhere. I don't really understand what you mean by the OOT Sages not having their own section, cuz they sort of do... under the "Ocarina of Time" heading. Know what I mean? That group of seven Sages is discussed based on their in-game appearance.
 * There are a lot of things said about the Ancient Sages (what I understood to be the original group of Sages), but there's not really a place to organize the information about them. Like, "As revealed by Rauru, the original Sages were the ones who built the Temple of Time to protect the Triforce against those who would use it for evil", and Princess Zelda saying they crafted the Master Sword, but there's no little area dedicated to talking about just them. All the information is spread out over the whole article, so if you're just interested in looking at information about the Ancient Sages in particular, there's no way to do that the way things stand now. I'm mostly worried about the presentation. Am I talking in circles or is what I'm saying valid at all? 16:01, 17 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Hahaha nah, I know what you mean. Well, how about this: make the Ancient Sages its own section above the ALttP section and dump all the Ancient Sages information there. I don't know about making it its own page since all sage-related stuff is on this page, which is kind of nice instead of having a page for the Seven Maidens, one for the ALttP Wise Men, one for the Six Sages, one for the Shrine Maidens, and one for the Earth and Wind Sages...you know? Well, that's my take on it, I don't know if other folks will agree or disagree. :P Dany36 16:12, 17 June 2010 (UTC)
 * No I think you're right, they're Sages too - the first Sages - so it makes perfect sense to keep them on this page. Well I guess I'll start collection information and just give them a heading? =) 16:19, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

Split Maidens
This page is big. Like the lokomo, the Maidens from A Link to the Past and Four Swords Adventures should have their own page, but still with mention here. Jeangabin 09:48, 10 August 2010 (EDT)
 * Hmm...I'm not sure about this one. Maidens have a lot in common with Sages, and I hate to think that this information should be scattered in two pages. :/ Dany36 19:07, 10 August 2010 (EDT)
 * They're two separate entities though, with only a few similarities. They also appear in their own respective games, and it is just too cluttered including both on a single page, so I vote split. 19:11, 10 August 2010 (EDT)
 * I think this is a case of something which, while it originally had far too little information to warrant its own article (see this previous version ), has now been expanded enough for that to no longer be the case. So yeah, I'd say they're probably distinct enough and with enough content to warrant a split. 07:17, 11 August 2010 (EDT)

The Imprisoning War Sages
When OoT was released (and since it was meant to represent the IW) the sages in the game were those mentioned in the ALttP BS. Hyrule Historia says though, that the IW occurred many years after the DT ending and OoT no longer represents the IW. Therefore, most likely the IW sages are now a different set from those in OoT. Zeldafan1982 11:30, 23 April 2012 (EDT)
 * If the 3 timelines theory is correct then OoT is the ALttP BS so IS the IW. Anyway, we can't trust much in HH because it say that Rauru is actually Kaepora Gaebora, which is impossible since the owl is surprised to see adult Link in the Spirit Temple, and is never implied a connection between the two anywhere in the whole game.SilverArcher 15:04, 24 April 2012 (EDT)
 * Kaepora Gaebora isn't surprised, he just notes on how Link has matured, and that never strictly means physically. He very well could just be talking about how he's changed since receiving the body of an adult, literally having grown into his body. 15:22, 24 April 2012 (EDT)
 * "We can't trust Hyrule Historia"? Really, you're saying that? Aonuma oversaw everything in it, it is 100% canon. Reign - Our journey has only just begun. 16:29, 24 April 2012 (EDT)
 * What I mean is that in the original game they weren't supposed to be the same character, because if they were, Rauru would have said `` Do you recognize me? I'm Kaepora Gaebora´´ or something like that. Actually there is not any connecction between them, just a Gossip Stone that says that Kaepora Gaebora is the reincarnation of an ancient sage, and now we know he was probably Gaepora. To me, this is just another theory of some random guy on the Internet.SilverArcher 08:51, 25 April 2012 (EDT)
 * What I mean is that in the original game they weren't supposed to be the same character, because if they were, Rauru would have said `` Do you recognize me? I'm Kaepora Gaebora´´ or something like that. Actually there is not any connecction between them, just a Gossip Stone that says that Kaepora Gaebora is the reincarnation of an ancient sage, and now we know he was probably Gaepora. To me, this is just another theory of some random guy on the Internet.SilverArcher 08:51, 25 April 2012 (EDT)

In the Japanese version of the SNES game they were called Seven Sages. Therefore, I don't think it is certain that their name was changed to Seven Sages in the GBA version in order to be in accordance with newer titles. Maybe they just wanted to be consistent with the Japanese text. There was a discussion here about the same topic. Zeldafan1982 14:33, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
 * It is a bit of an assumption. I suppose we're better off sticking to the facts and let the readers draw their own conclusions. 15:13, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Rearranging according to the timeline
I think the page should be arranged according to the timeline. What do you think? Zeldafan1982 15:40, 15 September 2012 (EDT)
 * To be honest, I think the page needs splitting. It's HUGE. It's covering at least four different sets of Sages, some of which have little relation with each other. Pretty over the top. Sure, we should have a "Sage" page, but some of the groups of sages need their own individual pages. Page is WAY too big. 16:34, 15 September 2012 (EDT)

The Third Sage
This doesn't have much to do with anything, but I thought of a theory about the third Wind Waker sage. We know there's evidence that there may have been a dungeon on Greatfish Isle, and knowing Nintendo, it was probably a Water dungeon. Greatfish Isle probably had a race living on it in early development, like the Rito and Koroks. The new sages came from those races, so the third would have probably come from the race on Greatfish. The Earth Sage came from Dragon Roost Island which had a Fire dungeon, and Earth is usually related to Fire. The Wind Sage came from Forest Haven, with had a Forest type dungeon, and Wind is usually related to forest. Then the only unused element we have is Ice and Electric, the latter not really existing at that time. So the third sage was probably Ice which is related to Water, which is a common theory. All the races are also descended from a race from Ocarina of Time, the unused one being the Gorons. The race on Greatfish was probably descended from the Gorons. This is supported because one of the Traveling Merchants is on Greatfish. Also, since The Earth Sage had The Earth Temple, and The Wind Sage had The Wind Temple, the Ice Sage probably owned The Ice Temple.

So to sum it all up; the third sage was most likely an Ice Sage, from a tribe descended from the Gorons, the former living on Greatfish Isle. The sages temple surely would have been The Ice Temple. --Person777 19:55, 24 February 2013 (UTC)


 * Interesting theory, but unfortunately we don't really allow many theories in our articles. And talk pages are mostly for discussion of the article itself. If you'd like to discuss different theories though, I'd definitely recommend checking out Zelda Universe and discuss your theories there =)  21:27, 24 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Alternatively, it would just be the Temple of Time, especially due to the "river of time" metaphors used with the Master Sword.KrytenKoro 20:56, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Link Between Worlds (SEMI-SPOILERS)
Okay, so a few things about LBW totally mess up the Sage thing.

For one, the story about the sages at the beginning is in direct contradiction to the hystoria, as it claims that the royal family summoned the seven sages to seal away the Triforce, before Ganon ever found it.

For two, the portrait clearly depicts seven sages, not including Zelda (although when you see it later on, one of the Sages has been replaced by Ravio, possibly as graffiti). The game follows with this. It's possible to resolve this by claiming that the oral/written history is just mistaken, and that at some point Zelda's bloodline split into Sage powers and Hylia powers (meaning one of the LBW sages is a close relative of the game's princess), but it's not at all indicated by the game and would only be an inter-game continuity thing. Whatever.

For three, the term "Sevensage" is introduced: one of the sages claims that they are a "Sevensage", the term is highlighted, etc. Probably just a poor kludge to resolve some Japanese quote along the lines of "I am (one of the) Seven Sages", but it is what is is.

BIGGER SPOILERS HERE

For four, the sages in this game, as with the maidens in the past LttP games, are very much alive, and there is no indication whatsoever that they have passed on; in fact, while they are stuck in the Chamber of Sages for the duration of the conflict, they plan to come home.


 * Not sure the spoiler tag is really necessary, and you didn't sign your post.


 * Regarding Princess Zelda as a sage
 * I also just noticed that Princess Zelda is not included as one of the Seven Sages. The Seven Sages in A Link Between Worlds are all clearly named "descendants," so there should be a royal family connection somewhere (my speculation would be that Osfala is the royal connection). It really only means that the information on the page needs to change to be more game specific. The definition of what a sage is seems to change over time, and apparently Princess Zelda is not always the leader of the sages.


 * Regarding the A Link to the Past backstory
 * The story in Hyrule Castle has a lot of odd information. It's possible that this is just a simplified, distorted history - a "legend." Or it could be a case of a really poor translation. I'm curious to know what the story says in the Japanese release. The other possibility is that this backstory is not intended to be specifically for A Link to the Past (though that seems odd since A Link Between Worlds is a sequel).


 * The story does says that a great war was fought to keep the Triforce away from evil people - what war is this? Then it says the Triforce is sealed away by the Seven Sages and that Ganondorf breaks into the Sacred Realm and stole the Triforce....this sounds more like Ocarina of Time. Then a Hero appears and saves the day and the Triforce is split into 3 parts. It's clear that the story in A Link Between Worlds is going to be a point of debate.


 * Regarding Ravio in the painting
 * Honestly, I think Ravio's appearance is irrelevant.


 * Regarding the term "Sevensage"
 * "Sevensage" is not an official term for a sage. The term is used by one character: Gulley. Gulley is extremely young. He's younger than Link, and Link is very young in this game. When he first uses the term, it's clear that he doesn't really understand what it means. In other words, it's just a play on the words made up by a little boy. It's put in the text to give him personality. --Joshua (Yumil) (talk) 06:08, 28 November 2013 (UTC)


 * I think the legend was intentionally delivered somewhat out-of-order because the actual events involve two different sets of sages (probably, anyway) and two different sealing events involving Ganon. It's confusing for us knowing the games, imagine how confusing it would be for anyone else. As a legend, it can get away with simplifying events, which is now sort of a common theme in these legends at the start of each game to miss things out almost on purpose.


 * Also, I believe a certain line by Sahasrahla is important. He notes that the descendants Yuga are after is the descendants of the ORIGINAL Seven Sages. The fact that he describes them this way (if I remember correctly) implies that they are not actually related to the Seven Sages from the Imprisoning War (the Seven Wise Men) but are instead the descendants of the Sages from Ocarina of Time (Hyrule Historia implies that these are not the same Sages). This would explain why one of them is a Zora queen, for example, while the Maidens were all Hylian. Of course, if Princess Zelda was one of the Maidens and thus was related to the Seven Wise Men, and Zelda was also one of the Seven Sages, that doesn't remove the royal connection at all. However, there were likely to be numerous descendants, and while there are seven of them, they may of only been related to six of the Sages, while Zelda's line remained separate. So there's no requirement that one of them has a royal connection, necessarily, although that sort of fudges the idea of them being true descendants I suppose... Perhaps Impa is actually related to Zelda?


 * Also, while the legend does depict Seven Sages alongside Link and Zelda while there were only six Maidens and six Sages aside from her, it's possible that those are the Seven Sages of the Imprisoning War and are just put there for effect. They look identical to the ones previously depicted, rather than appearing as six maidens. That or Zelda is just depicted twice on the same mural. Or maybe it's a little intentionally annoying in-joke for the fans because Ravio is drawn over it in the end as if to imply that these murals are actually just depictions of events rather than what actually happened, so don't take them too seriously. 22:09, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

A split is desperately needed...
At this point in the series we basically have THREE different Seven Sages, one set of Six Sages, two other Sages, Seven Maidens who are descendants of the Sages, and the ancient sages that Rauru was a part of. This article really needs to be split into different sections.


 * Seven Sages (A Link to the Past (aka the Seven Wise Men))
 * Seven Sages (A Link Between Worlds)
 * Sages (Ocarina of Time (was the term Seven Sages used in this game? Can't remember, I'd need to check))
 * Sages (Twilight Princess)
 * Sages (The Wind Waker)

And that's just for starters. These are distinct groups of people, and just because they often share a common name doesn't mean they're the same, and it'd be much easier to distinguish between which sages did what if they were on their own pages, in my opinion.

As for the page itself, a disambiguation page would work I suspect, but not sure. Any thoughts? 22:31, 3 December 2013 (UTC)


 * I'm in favor of splitting this article. I'm less sure if we need to keep the actual "sage" article (with a basic description of what a sage is/does with "full article" links for the different groups) or if a disambiguation page would work better. However, I'm leaning towards keeping the "sage" article with the basics. A disambiguation page seems like it may leave out too much information. There are some key similarities between all of the sages, and I think it should be noted.


 * Either way, I think the Maidens and Lokomo should be included. Anjean is specifically called a "sage" by Zelda early in the game. The Maidens and Lokomo serve a very similar purpose to the actual "sages."


 * So, I recommend the following list:
 * Seven Sages (A Link to the Past): Seven Wise Men
 * Seven Sages (A Link Between Worlds)
 * Seven Sages (Ocarina of Time): I'm not certain if the term is used in-game, but it's definitely used in Hyrule Historia (pg 93).
 * Sages (Twilight Princess)
 * Sages (The Wind Waker)
 * Maidens (A Link to the Past)
 * Maidens (Four Swords Adventures)
 * Lokomo
 * --Joshua (Yumil) (talk) 01:33, 4 December 2013 (UTC)