Zelda Wiki:Discussion Center


 * Archive 1
 * Archive 2
 * Archive 3

Comment templates
So gradually we've been getting a lot of "comment" templates in articles, like "Navi's Comment" and "Tatl's Comment" etc. And I'm not here to complain about them, they're quite neat to have (and hell, I contributed most of the Fi ones). However, I notice we've now got templates for Midna, various manuals and even one for Nintendoland, so I want to propose that perhaps we form a standard for these templates. Right now, they are placed in different sections of various articles, and tend to mount up (take a look at Octorok to see what I mean).

Would it be worth having a new section devoted to these templates? Or even a new template altogether, that encompasses and displays all the current content in one? At the very least, I would think it's worth merging all the existing templates into one multi-purpose comment template (if we do it right, there would functionally be no difference, and it would allow for easy expansion in the future). --Dorsal Axe 22:22, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Merging them sounds like a potential idea, but I'm not sure the best way of doing so. There's also the figure descriptions in TWW and TMC, too. 01:46, 30 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Whether it's or , I don't really see much of a difference. Why would standardizing these templates be worth editing  the 300+ pages they're used on? Also, if I understand it correctly, editing a piece of a heavily-used template as opposed to a separate, smaller one = bigger job queue = bigger server strain (I might be talking through my hat on that one, though).


 * But I do agree the comments could use a face-lift in terms of style. If anyone had any ideas on that front they'd be greatly appreciated. This isn't the first time we've talked about needing to change the darn things, but I don't remember hearing any suggestions as to what we could actually do to them (can't really think of any myself, at the moment). :P As for their placement, I don't particularly see a problem with them being placed differently as long as it's logical and justifiable. It does look pretty bad when they pile up like that, though. Perhaps a dedicated section would indeed be order in those cases. What would we call such a section, however? Hm...  02:16, 30 January 2013 (UTC)


 * What is the policy for enemy pages at the moment when it comes to covering different games? Some pages are split by game, others try to go for a more "general" approach. Personally I think the general approach is lacking and flawed, and find it much easier to organize and follow pages that refer to the enemy and how it changes from game to game. This would solve the issue that's being brought up here, because without dedicated sections in an article for specific games the templates have nowhere to go, and end up bunched up at the top. 01:04, 31 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Reorganizing these pages by game would be a big step backward since we spent a considerable amount of time and effort (and by "we" I mean Cipriano) reorganizing them into what Cip likes to call "a superior encyclopedic format." This "general" approach emphasizes in-universe writing, which in turn makes for a more engaging read. On the other hand, organizing them by game can often cause redundancy. A subject that spans several games always carry some similarities from one title to another.


 * There are pros and cons to either approach. If you ask me, the key is finding a balance between the two. Take the Link and Zelda articles for example. (Or the Soldier article, if I may be so bold). 22:57, 31 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Yes, a balance is vital, but I'm not necessarily sure it's our job to be TOO in-universe. I think the Hyrule Historia approach is best, stay relatively in-universe but don't be afraid to mention specific games, I mean, it's impossible NOT to mention them. I don't see the big deal of having sections covering what are effectively different "events" in the universe's history. I mean, pretending that Stalfos use either swords or maces when in fact they only use maces in ONE game (which is on ONE timeline) means the "general" approach is way too vague when you have a subject as universal and yet heavily varied as the Stalfos. Hyrule Historia doesn't pretend they're the same in each era, either. I guess I'm arguing for the same thing as you, I just don't see how having different subsections hurts that "feel" at all, it just organizes things. Not the best example because I'm not thinking in terms of timeline here, just release dates, but nobody would expect a history book to cover the changing history of a nation in a non-chronological manner. 00:36, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

Just an idea...for pages with multiple templates, why not use the tab template? It makes it less cluttered and allows us to save space. 02:01, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

The Dividing Line of Cheats and Glitches
A recent edit has come to my attention that claims that cheats/hacks and glitches are independent of one another, and thus anything involving cheating devices should not constitute as being a glitch. I disagree with this, though, and I think that even though it's initiated by a cheating device, you still can encounter glitches that would only be available under the influence of said devices; thus, it's only an issue of discerning what a glitch is (a malfunction), and even though it's by external means, the glitches likely aren't the intended result of the codes within the cheats as the latter are only meant to unlock certain abilities. These abilities simply open the range for which glitches may occur. I'd really like to hear what other people have to say about this, though. 07:49, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
 * I think a gltich is really defined as a game not behaving as intended. Using hacking or a cheat cartridge to cause strange things to occur isn't really glitching the game at all, because it's impossible on normal hardware. Numerous games are designed so that once you break the "laws" of the game you are suddenly able to witness a ton of things simply not working as intended. These are never fixed because no player would normally have access to them. For example, you can use cheat codes to access Master Hand in the original Smash Bros., but playing as Master Hand frequently causes errors. But these aren't really glitches because there's no way anyone would normally access this.
 * Think of it like breaking the fourth wall. A standard glitch breaks this fourth wall in normal game play, suddenly allowing you to see behind the "set" of the game. With a cheat device, you can just run around behind the set and look around and mess with things, but that isn't a glitch, that's just messing with the innards of a game and seeing what happens.
 * Stuff like the crooked cartridge is similar, but at least you don't have to have a cheat device to perform those glitches. I would still call those cheats rather than glitches, however, because it's not massively different, you have to go about it with a real aim to effectively break the game.
 * As for the glitch in question in the edit, that's definitely not a glitch. If you break the sequence of any game you can cause very similar things to occur. There would be like a billion examples. It's all to do with the way games are programmed. If you don't trigger certain "flags" or events, things won't activate, characters won't appear, etc., it's very normal behavior and often very intentional. 14:31, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm inclined to agree. In fact, the other day I almost removed the very section in question myself. Using external tools to push a game beyond the limits of its intended design is not a true glitch by any definition. My understanding is that the purpose of these pages is to highlight exploits caused by flaws and oversights in the game's coding (like using the hookshot through other objects, missing collision, reusing consumable items etc.) It's definitely not a cheat, and I think Darkness simply said that for want of a better word. This is more like... breaking the game through hacking?
 * And I'd also agree that the Crooked Cartridge trick isn't really a glitch either, since that's not strictly an issue with the software. Let's face it: If you mess with the hardware, bad things are gonna happen. But it's an interesting sequence breaking trick nonetheless, I suppose. As for this one, it's neither a trick of any use, nor something anyone is going to ever come across without deliberately going out of their way to mess with the game. --Dorsal Axe 16:40, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Finding Uncategorized Files
Hey all,

As you know, the FileInfo template can be used to categorize image files by game, among other things. This is great, because when you're looking for images from a certain game, there's a whole category devoted to them. But there are a LOT of files on this wiki that were uploaded before this template existed (or were not uploaded with it correctly implemented). These should be categorized by game for ease of access by the editors. Most of these files, however, still do not appear under the Special:UncategorizedFiles, because they're equipped with the (now obsolete) Copyright template, and are thus categorized under Copyright images, which is an extremely unhelpful category with over 14,000 entries.

So my question is this: Is there a way to disable the categorization of files with the Copyright template into the Copyright images category, at least temporarily, so that these files will show up in the Uncategorized Files? Or are there better options to find these images, so we can get to sorting? 00:21, 20 March 2013 (UTC)


 * I've actually brought this up before in the chat so I'm totally with you on this one. Right now Template:Copyright has two formats, the standalone format and the one used with FileInfo. It's as easy as splitting the two into separate templates and not having the FileInfo one add the "Copyrighted images" category (which we could probably do away with, it's not particularly useful as you said). 00:32, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Maybe just make "Copyrighted images" a hidden category? I believe that if pages are only in a hidden category they show up on UncategorizedFiles. Not completely sure though as I have limited experience with them. -- Snorlax Monster  04:46, 23 March 2013 (UTC)

Massive Zelda Powerpoint
Hey there, I have been working on a extremely large power point over the past few weeks as a project of mine, however, with it reaching its finish, I will have to do something with it soon. And that is where Zelda Wiki comes in. I was wondering if I could have my power point uploaded to the wiki as a General Knowledge source for any Zelda fan who wants to learn more. The power point contains information on characters, items and much more.Once finished, it will need to be removed from my computer so I would like it to go on the Wiki. I would really like other people to have as much fun viewing it as i had making it. I would really appreciate it if you took the time to have a look, and maybe put it on the site and reply as soon as possible.

All my thanks
 * I think it would be better if you compared the information you collected with what is already in the wiki and change or add to the respective articles if they lack info :) Zeldafan1982 22:34, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
 * What Zeldafan said. Sadly, we cannot host a powerpoint with the MediaWiki software, and we already have pages for all the characters and whatnot. We'd be glad to have you share anything relevant that's not already on the pages, though! 16:54, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

Licensing overhaul
Alright, so lately we've been making a big effort to properly categorize our files, thanks to Template:FileInfo. To that end, I have a few proposals for our image licensing policies, which doesn't really cover all the bases at the moment. Here they are:


 * Get rid of AV-Copyright: The same copyright laws and "fair use" doctrine apply to audio and images (to my knowledge), and since we have the type field now to distinguish sounds from images, there's no reason we can't just merge this into Template:Copyright.


 * Get rid of Category:Copyrighted images: A category that lumps together over 90% of the wiki's files is of no particular use to anyone. At the very least, it should only be for miscellanious copyrighted files that aren't already categorized by game.


 * Get rid of WikimediaImage. This template's outdated since we have the "source" field to tell us where the file came from. I also think we should be properly licensing or images here, instead of just being lazy and sending readers to the source to find the image's status. This template would be superseded by the Public Domain template and a new copyleft/GDFL template (see below).


 * Fan Art = Derivative Work ≠ Every user-made work. It's getting to the point where almost any user-made work is getting categorized as fan art, when a lot of it isn't fan art at all. We need to establish that fan art =, that is, a piece of art depicting something copyrighted, like for exampe, a fan-made image of Link. Heavily edited images from any of the games (example) and images from fan games (example) would also count as fan art. Photographs most personal images are original works, not derivative works and therefore NOT fan art. Those works should be put under a copyleft license. Otherwise I think our fan art policies are fine, although we should probably mention that Nintendo holds some copyright as well as the author. Copyrights can be a little tricky for derivative works so I guess it's good to play it safe and always assume the author claims copyrights, and therefore require permission before use (with the exception of fan games, which I guess could be seen as fair use).


 * Have a (more specifically a GFDL) licensing template, like : For any image released under the GFDL (as many Wikimedia Foundation images are). This license also applies to personal works that are neither copyrighted nor public domain (with the exception of derivative works as mentioned above). Images that would apply to this license, which are currently getting lumped in with fan art as I said, would be photographs, signatures, and other such personal images,


 * Have a "not sure" option. Got this idea from Mario Wiki, pretty self-explanatory. This would be the default if no license was selected during the upload. If we're not going to force people to select a license, we need to have something that lets us know what files haven't been properly licensed.

So there you have it, guys. I don't know how many of you care for policy-writing, but since it's an essential part of the wiki it's only right that I brought it up here first. I have some stuff already written up here if we go through with it. Any thoughts on this are welcome. 20:47, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

PS: Maybe we should start categorizing fan art by game as well.


 * Everything you said sounds good with me, so I support.  01:10, 25 March 2013 (UTC)


 * The image you used as an example for "photographs" would be fan art, as costumes are technically a form of art, and therefore a fan costume would be fan art. Also, the problem with the "fan art" category could also be addressed by changing the name of the category/changing what the template says to allow for more files to be covered by that category. I brought up the problem here. Everything else looks fine, however, so I support. 01:28, 25 March 2013 (UTC)


 * This is the part of the reason why I brought this all up in the first place. And yes, it depends on how you interpret the word "Fan art", but in this context I'm saying Template:Fan art should only be for derivative works because the legality of them is a little different than flat-out copyrighted, public domain, and copyleft works, and that's really the only reason to have a separate license for them in the first place. It's not even a proper license, which is why we should be tagging images with a clearer license (either copyright, public domain, or copyleft) whenever possible. That's why I'm proposing we change the Fan Art license to include less images as opposed to more.


 * I guess a photograph of someone dressed up as Hylia might be considered a derivative work, and some signatures too, if they have copyrighted material in them. Images such as these, however, are certainly not fan art nor derivative works. 01:58, 25 March 2013 (UTC)


 * I'm for all these changes. Especially the one about getting rid of the massive and unhelpful Category:Copyrighted images. :P 05:13, 25 March 2013 (UTC)


 * I agree, these suggestions are all great and we should work to getting them done sooner, rather than later. --Xizor 11:18, 27 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree with most of what you said: there is no need to give sound files different licenses, being from Wikipedia is not a license, Fan Art is not a license, there are several copyleft images hosted on ZW that should be correctly tagged, and an unknown license option would be good so that staff can figure out how the image should be licensed to ensure correct licensing.
 * I'd also like to see the abolition of Template:Website; it is just as unclear as Template:Fan Art. For example, File:Bulbapedia.png was classified as fan art when it is actually copyrighted to Bulbagarden. Likewise, another license I think that should be added would be one indicating it is property of Zelda Wiki (e.g. for File:3dlogo.png) - perhaps ? Also, whether fan art is copyrighted or fair use is complex, but is discussed in detail here; cosplay is discussed here.
 * Also, I think it would be best to specify the specific license rather than just "Copyleft" (and this could be particularly problematic if Creative Commons images are permitted, and I think they should be). Also, I think it would be best to specify the version number of the license too, but I understand if you want to keep it simple.
 * In regards to using images from Wikipedia, apparently dual licensing means that when re-using it you get to chose which one you want to use. So currently that would be GFDL, when applicable.
 * Also, I suggest adding the file type of "photograph". While game content is unlikely to considered this, merchandise and the games themselves, as well as cosplays, will fall into this category.
 * Also, I really think the link at the bottom of every page should be to Zelda Wiki:GNU Free Documentation License not the Wikipedia page. -- Snorlax Monster  02:21, 3 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Yeah, Template:Website could be replaced with Copyright, and in some cases copyleft. Having a template for ZW copyrights might be a good idea, though I can't imagine it would be used for more than a handful of images. We should probably leave it off the upload form for that reason. A Creative Commons license sounds fine, although I think we should only use it when we need to and leave the GFDL as our principal copyleft license. We also may or may not want to put that one on the upload form for the sake of keeping it simple, since very few of our images seem to require a CC license at the moment.


 * A "photographs" type might be useful. For those who aren't on the Skype chat, a "personal image" type has also been suggested for the various user images that don't have any use in the mainspace. This would solve the problem of having to sort out these miscellaneous images. "Printed Media" has also been suggested as a replacement for "Scans". This type would cover scans of all manga, comics, manuals, and other books, as well as cover art (including box art).


 * Well, I think we've covered just about everything we need to for now. Time to move forward with this, I think, unless anyone has something else to add. 21:44, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

New Page Suggestion: Enemy HP
Considering that there is already a page based around Weapon Strength, I'd like to propose another page similar that depicts the various number of 'Hit Points' required to defeat the multitude of enemies in Zelda. The health is simply calculated by the amount of hits the enemy takes and the strength of the weapon used i.e. it takes 10 hits from the Biggoron's Sword, 20 hits from the Master Sword (40 hits from the Kokiri Sword) equalling 40 hit points. Completing an article with all the enemies of Zelda's HP would result in quite a large page, however another suggestion brought by Hylian King is to add an extra section within the Enemy infobox that incorporates the HP in the existing enemy pages. Thoughts? --Smighty 07:42, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I must say that I quite like the sound of the second suggestion. Having a large page showing the HP of every single enemy in the entire series would be excessive if we're simply able to place the information on their individual pages. I feel that having the values within the individual infoboxes would be far more useful and practical. However, how would go about defining "1 hit." Looking at the Weapon Strength page, and using as an example, I believe that it would make the most sense if we were to either base it around the weakest sword (i.e. the Recruit's Sword) or the weakest weapon (i.e. the Whip). By this I mean that 1 hit point would be equal to one hit from the Recruit's Sword and two from the Whip, or one from the Whip and a half from the Recruit's Sword. Personally, I prefer the latter method: whatever the weakest object, item or weapon in the game is, (even if it isn't a sword) one hit from it would be equal to one hit point. So long as we can agree on the definition of a "hit," I don't see why we can't do this.  10:09, 10 April 2013 (UTC)


 * I like the notion, but this is something that's going to be much easier said than done.


 * The information that is of use to readers is how much hits it takes to kill an enemy with any given weapon. To make them understand that from a single HP value based on, say, the number of hits from the first sword, they need to understand the Weapon Strength. As such, we have to make the Weapon Strength stats readily available with every mention of HP. I can only vaguely think of how we're going to do that. Ideas, anyone?


 * Another issue is getting readers to understand our point of reference in the first place. A number in an infobox is not going to mean anything to anyone. We have to somehow make it plain to see that the stat equals the number of hits it takes to kill the enemy with the most basic sword (or however we decide to define a "hit", though I would recommend the weakest sword because that's how the Weapon Strength page is organized for the most part).


 * Thirdly, we need to figure out how to deal with enemies that appear in several games. I would suggest that for pages such as Moblin we have an entire section dedicated to HP, and provide a link to that section in the infobox, so as to not overload the latter.


 * So there's a few issues we need to address if this is going to work. 12:04, 10 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Here's my take. If we add the HP to the infobox, we need to add a link which takes the user to the weapon strength page. Perhaps we do an asterisk (*) and then at the bottom of the infobox provide a link saying "See how HP is calculated: Weapon Strength." My point is that if we just flat out list an HP value, people are going to go "Wait, where did they get that?" There has to be some form of clarification. Don't get me wrong, though, I still think it's a good idea. We just need to be very clear with it. 12:38, 10 April 2013 (UTC)


 * I think we should continue in the same scheme as the Weapon Strength page and follow with the weakest sword’s rating as a “Hit” Point. It would be most understandable for the readers if we went with what Justin said and linked the Weapon Strength page to the stat. However it is not required to use the weakest weapon to determine the Hit Points of an enemy as the weapon strength has already been well established on this Wiki, for example:

2 hits from Kokiri = 1 Master, 2 hits from Master = 1 Biggoron/Giant’s So, if you kill something with 4 hits from the Biggoron then that’s 8 from Master and 16 from Kokiti = 16 Hit points altogether. Divide Biggoron's by 4. OoT is my example because it is what I'm MOST familiar with, I understand there will be complications for other weaponry within various Zelda titles such as Spirit Tracks.


 * Some enemies may propose a strategical combat issue if the HP is to be included into the Enemies’ existing Info box. Then, some enemies of the same kind might require two separate HP stats by the method of killing, for example:

The Deku Baba can be cut down with one swing of the Kokiri Sword (The weakest sword of OoT) while in stalk stance (creating Deku Stick), however to attack while it is lunging requires two swings (creating Deku Nut). Does this suggest the Small Deku Baba has 2 HP, and the stalk is merely a weak point?
 * Perhaps the Strategy Section or the Overview should contain the details of their variations and the Enemy Infobox should contain their direct suspected HP. Obviously, what we're trying to establish as HP is simply what the programmers had hidden in the coding: How many hits to defeat, and by extension, with what? Zelda isn't some math driven RPG, but to give any kind realistic combat system there must have been enemy HP for all expected opponents.
 * Another, easier solution is to merely have a HP stat for Bosses. Only issue is with some like Gohma who are all in the one page and the best way to not clutter said page is using what HK said and create another page containing their HP. --Smighty 23:21, 12 April 2013 (UTC)