Talk:Golden Goddess

I propose that this article title be changed to simply "Goddesses" or "Goddesses of Hyrule," since "Golden Goddesses" seems to be rarely used...67.160.13.15 00:56, 20 April 2007 (PDT)

The term "Goddesses of Hyrule" is never used, thus "Golden Goddesses" is the proper term when referring to the three of them. The term Golden Goddesses was used in The Ocarina of Time, and A Link to The Past. September 2007

The Goddesses and their respective elements
For the purpose of enhancing this article, I think that it's best that I ask other users what they think about the Goddesses "Attributes" subsections. In-game, I've noticed that Din is often associated with fire, and the earth, Nayru is associated with water, and the aspect of time, and Farore is associated with forests, and the wind. Naturally, because I've added most of the information that is on the page at this time, the article reflects my view. Does anyone disagree with any of these assertions?--Farewell to Gibdos 17:50, 22 January 2008 (EST)
 * As noted below, I sea no evidence of a Nayru-water link besides that the sea spirit Jabun holds Nayru's Pearl in The Wind Waker, and the Farore-forest link is based on landmark-conjecture. There's stronger evidence for the Earth God (almost certainly Din), to be associated with Forests, as TWW and TMC strongly associate the element of Earth with forests or trees (the Minish Woods and the earth spirit Deku Tree). Din-Fire is the only one we can safely claim of that triad, as her spell is named after it, the Power Spirit imbues the Phantom Sword with fire, the Great Fairy resembling her in FS is the "Great Fairy of Flame", and fire is used to describe her in the creation myths.KrytenKoro 22:00, 27 January 2008 (EST)
 * I don't quite get what you mean by "other than"; if there's a connection there's a connection. Another connection, as noted below, is the pearl symbol similarity with the spiritual stone of water. Another is the landtype associations in Twilight Princess. There are still more. Din is moreso associated with Fire than with Earth. Besides, the only connection between Forest and Earth is the Great Deku Tree in WW. However, he holds Farore's pearl. The Goddesses true appearances are unknown, unless perhaps the creation cinema appearances are accurate.--Farewell to Gibdos 00:33, 28 January 2008 (EST)
 * ...If there's a connection, yes. If it's a coincidence, no. The Tune of Ages and Zora emblem are somewhat similar, but not the same. The land-type association, as I explain below, can be twisted any which way you want it too, since there are towns, mountains, rivers, fields, and chasms in every province. Forest-Earth - Again, I specifically explained that it occurs again in TP. The only time the forest is actively linked to anything, it is the Kokiri, the Earth Spirit, and the Earth Element. Not wind. The Wind Temple is a desert-like place, and while it may have had a Kokiri sage, that's about the extent of the connection - and the Earth Temple had a Zora sage, so your claims would be contradictory anyway. The very reason why these probably aren't actually connections is because there's as much or more evidence pointing in the opposite direction.
 * The "similar appearances" is between the Oracles, named after the Goddesses, and the trio of Great Fairies in the Four Sword games.KrytenKoro 13:30, 28 January 2008 (EST)

Connections
Note: moved from Farewell to Gibdos's talk page, per his request

Nayru's Pearl has the symbol of the Tune of Ages on it. This is similar to the shape of the Zora's Sapphire, but different. Jabun is the sea spirit.

Din's Pearl is held by followers of Valoo, the sky spirit. Is Din the Sky Goddess? The Rito may hold Din's Pearl, but they also have the symbol of either stylized Zora or Nayru's Pearl on their clothes. And they are not really raptors. The Owl, sometimes named Kaepora Gaebora, is commonly called "wise" in the games. Also, the Gorons are never associated with Din. They hold the goron's Ruby at one point - but this is not Din's Pearl. It is the Goron's Ruby. Din is mainly the Earth Goddess - fire is just an attribute. In any case, the Gorons are living stones, not firey, so that connection really doesn't work either.

Farore's Pearl is held by Deku Tree, the earth spirit. Is Farore the Earth Goddess? The Kokiri's Emerald is also held with the Deku Tree, and the Kokiri are forest spirits, but there is little to no evidence that the spiritual stones have any connection to the pearls besides being another triad of red/blue/green items needed to get a sword. Look at the Pure Metals in PH - same concept, completely unrelated.

The Pearls have designs from Oracle of Ages. It's mostly aesthetics - for example, what does Din have to do with Currents?

Snakes may have some connection to cunning, but wisdom, not so much. Raptors such as owls are generally associated with wisdom, instead. And herd animals like goats are hardly at all associated with courage. Monkeys, more with curiosity - you might make a connection between curiosity and courage, but it is very specious. The whole thing reads like this has been revealed in the games, by developers, or in real-world culture, but it simply hasn't been.

PS - there's not yet been a Deku Forest. Deku Woods, yes, but that's in Labrynna.

The three spirits of TWW are sea, sky, and earth - like Groudon, Kyogre, and Rayquaza. It's simply a triad, and they're not the only spirits that have held parts of a triad.

I could give you the three great fairies of FS, since they are actually designed like the three oracles - this is kind of specious, but you have the Great Butterfly Fairy (of Flames), the Great Mayfly Fairy (of Ice), and the Great Dragonfly Fairy (of Forest).

That backing might work, but the goddesses have not been confined to any races, and the Spiritual Stones are merely described as the races' treasures - they might have been found or taken by those races, instead of given. The Zora's Sapphire is treated like an engagement ring! And the Gorons see the Goron's Ruby as food!

In fact, the most damning evidence is that they were created to seal the door - meaning that they were created by the sages, long after the Goddesses stopped majorly interfering. There's no connection there. I used to agree with you, and saw the same connections, but looking at the info, there's no connection there.KrytenKoro 23:12, 22 January 2008 (EST)


 * I agree with most of what you are saying, but certain recurrent themes do connect the Goddesses to the elements. Not every element is exclusively attributed to a particular Goddess, but there are connections present.


 * The Zora's Sapphire is nearly indistinguishable from the symbol of the Tune of Ages, and on more than one occasion Nayru has been associated with both water and time.


 * The purpose for the jewels is to open the Door of Time, however it is never revealed how or by whom they were created. As you stated, there is no reason to believe that the Goddesses had anything to do with the creation of the artifacts. But, that does not mean that the Goddesses are not connected to the stones at all. Din being associated with fire inherently associates her with the Spiritual Stone of Fire.


 * Sorry, I meant the Kokiri Forest.


 * Din is associated with the Earth, primarily because she is it's creator. More importantly, Din is the Goddess of Power, the one thing that the Gorons respect in their society. And as living stones, they are associated with the element of Earth. Saying that the Gorons viewed the Ruby as food is not necessarily accurate. One Goron stated that he'd like to eat it, but clearly Darunia did not share his sentiment, and regardless of that, how highly or little the respective races value the gems isn't really important.


 * Din is never stated to be the Goddess of the Sky, however, she is associated with it by several themes in various games (The Rito having her pearl, Valoo being a fire breathing Dragon who resides within a volcano, Eldin having the appearance of a bird.) In the real world, yes, Owls are associated with wisdom, but that may or may not be the case in Hyrule, and it does not necessarily dissassociate Din from raptors altogether. But now that I think of it, you might be right about the Rito not being raptors, although they resemble birds. They don't even naturally have wings. They are, however, associated with Din.


 * Regarding the comment about snakes: in different cultures different animals have different connotations. Depending on the culture, several animals are associated with virtues that aren't necessarily synonymous with their real world counterparts.


 * None of what I've stated is explicitly revealed in game, but it is repetitively advocated in game after game.


 * Let's continue this discussion on the article's discussion page, so that we can get the input of others.--Farewell to Gibdos 18:37, 23 January 2008 (EST)
 * The Tune of Ages has the three extra circles. The Zora emblem does not. The Zora symbol may be based on the Ages symbol, but that does not mean that the Zora are her chosen people.
 * Just because two things have fire in their names does not make them related. There are countless "fire" things in the games - for example, the Temple of Fire in Phantom Hourglass is dedicated to a servant of the Ocean King, not related to Din. The Snowhead Temple and its Fire Arrows are associated with the Northern Giant, not Din.
 * And that the two temples of TWW are associated with worshipping the Triforce Gods, unlike the temples of OoT which worship the elemental spirits.
 * If Din is the patron deity of the Gorons, as you claim, and the Goron's Ruby is associated with her, as you claim, then they would not view it as food. In the way the games depict it, it is a heirloom or possession of Darunia's, and one apparently not well known of by the race as a whole. The same goes with the other stone's - a possibly more likely case is that they were made by the architects of the Temple of Time, and given for safekeeping to the leaders of the three tribes. No association of the stones with the goddesses is made in the game, and the game goes on and on about the goddesses.
 * Stone is not necessarily Earth. As TMC and TWW showed, it can more closely be associated with things that grow form the earth, like trees.
 * You're making a circular argument here - I am arguing that the Rito and Valoo are probably not actually associated with Din because they are Sky-associated, and you are saying "they are because they are."
 * Kaepora Gaebora and the other owls in the series are almost always called "the wise old owl", or something similar, and the Owl statues in Link's Awakening were specifically "to dispense wisdom". It may be that Hyrule and Earth have drastically different symbology, but you are making the light spirit animal choice associations up out of whole cloth, with no clear basis in either realm.
 * If it's not explicitly revealed, how can it be "repetitively advocated"? For the snake thing, I'm not getting how you see snakes constantly associated with wisdom - the only other snakes in the series I know of are Dodongo Snakes (which eat things that kill them, all the time), and the Desert Colossus, which is the Gerudo's "Goddess of sand", and not at all related to wisdom or the Zora. Same with the raptor, the goat, and the lemur - the lemur could possibly be the closest, since on Earth primates are "known" for curiosity - but the rest is pure fancy. The water thing has not been repeatedly advocated - the only example you can come up with is the claim that the Zora are Nayru's chosen race....but the games say over and over that the Hylia are the Goddesses [only] chosen race - even in TP, when they introduce a race "made before the Hylia", they still say that the Hylia are more favored. None of these three races are ever shown to worship the Goddesses - hell, the Kokiri don't even seem to know anything about them! It is only the spirits (Great Deku Tree) and the Hylia (Zelda) that ever speak of the Goddesses.
 * I have made the changes on the page because I have discussed it (on this talk page, though, but you were the one dissenting so it's essentially the same), and there was still no evidence provided for your assertions, and much evidence against.
 * The link to specific races would actually more likely work in the reverse, since a Zora was the sage of the Earth Temple, not a Goron. The Kokiri one appears more clear, but arguing about who held the gems and stone's doesn't help much, since we have no persuasive evidence that the stones have anything to do with anything but the door, and the pearls appear to be given to the wrong spirits, if the association holds true - after all, Komali, who holds Din's Pearl, has the Zora symbol on his clothes - that's two solid points towards Din-Zora, and the Earth spirit protects Farore's Pearl. Nayru's Pearl is held by the Sea Spirit, though, which is pretty much the only solid hit for Nayru-water - unless the blue Nayru's Love and PH wisdom barriers are assumed to be magicked water, which it really doesn't look like. The other is the FS Great Fairy of Ice-Nayru link, which is still somewhat a stretch - it would be simpler to just say "Nayru is somewhat associated with ice", and not reach to claim something we can't prove. Especially the "landmark" thing - TP was the first game that associated the goddesses with any particular area, and even given that it was still named after the light spirits, not the goddesses directly, the main features of the provinces are still field - they all have a river going through them, as well as canyons and some peaks.

This is what we know: Nayru - wisdom (via definition), time and ages (via named oracle), ice (via great fairy with same appearance as her), love? (via spell) Din - Power (via definition), seasons, nature/currents (via named oracle and symbol), fire (via GF with same appear and spell) Farore - Courage (via definition), secrets, echoes (sound, possibly? makes sense with wind and life), wind (via spell and Tingle)

There can possibly be made the further claim that the Goddesses are worshipped in the three temples dedicated to the Master Sword - the temples in which the sages pray to the goddesses to protect or boon the Master Sword's power: Wind, Earth, and Time.

On the Tingle Tuner, Tingle refers to Farore as the God/dess of Wind - it's somewhere in the southern quadrant, if I can get time out of classes I'll provide the exact quote. That indicates that the Wind Triforce temple is probably her's. This is backed up somewhat in PH, when Link can use courage gems to perform a wind-like attack.

That leaves Earth and Time, and Nayru is already associated with Time via her oracle and her creation story. That leaves Earth and Din, and the same relationship is clear. I believe we agree on this part anyway, though.KrytenKoro 21:56, 27 January 2008 (EST)
 * You didn't have to move the whole thing. We could have discussed it in the above section. But anyway...


 * Once again I agree with some of what you've said, but there are a few problems.


 * I think you've misunderstood me. For the record, I've never suggested that any of the Goddesses had a "chosen people", or that they were the matron deities of any race. I merely stated that there are peoples who reflect the goddesses respective virtues, such as power (Din-Gorons). The Goddesses are only mentioned on two occasions in OOT.


 * Kaepora is never refered to in game by anyone/thing other than a few Gossip Stones. Owls may represent wisdom, however, both TP and TWW associate Din with birds.


 * In the said context, "advocated" is synonymous with "suggested." Dodongos aren't snakes. The Baby Dodongo may slightly resemble a snake, but other than that, well, there aren't any species of snake with legs. Besides, most enemies are monsters, not normal animals.


 * Clearly, the remarkable similarity between the Spritiual Stone of Water and the Symbol of the Tune of Ages is not coincidental. They're virtually identicle. Jabun holding the Nayru's pearl is yet another example of the water connection. Lanayru's role as a rainbringer is another connection. These are three connections. Nayru's Love need not have anything to do with water, and that seems to be the only venue you're truly concerned with. Once again, I've never said that Nayru has a chosen race. Even if you choose to ignore the similarities between the symbols, the connection is there. What is there to be debated?


 * No circular argument, I'm saying that Din is associated with Valoo and the Rito because A: They have Din's pearl, B: In both WW and TP, Din is associated with birds, and the Rito are birdlike people, and C: Valoo is a firebreathing Dragon. To be honest, in game, Din is more closely associated with fire than anything else.


 * The Goddesses have little involvement in any of the events of Majora's Mask.


 * The Goddesses appearances are not exactly known; aside from their appearances in the creation story, the only representations of them are statues, which may vastly differ in appearence. What's the difference between ages and time?


 * The Rito aren't the Zora, they descended from them, which is probably the reason why they wear the symbol of the Zora. Laruto being the Earth Sage does not mean that Zoras aren't associated with Nayru. For example, Ciela is the spirit of Courage, and Time. Does this dissociate Nayru from Time, simply because Courage is a virtue of Farore, or vice versa? Certainly not. It is merely an overlap.--Farewell to Gibdos 00:03, 28 January 2008 (EST)


 * "both TP and TWW associate Din with birds." - again, you're using a circular argument and assuming you're right to prove what you're assuming. While I agree that Eldin is associated with Din, there's no good evidence that it's anything beside coincidence, and the Rito have much more connection to the Zora - unless the Zora are also a race representing Din; still, the Rito worship Wind and Sky spirits, and their whole persona is developed around being free of the Earth. There may be some coincidences going both ways - but its overall safer to just not try to claim something with such little proof.
 * I withdraw my claim about owls being called "wise" - while I'm only able to find quotes with "wise", "owl", or "wisdom" in them, and not actually quotes from the owl itself, I can't see anything supporting my claim.
 * However, the Owl character almost always is used to give advice, and the OoX games feature many "wise Know-It-All Birds."
 * "remarkable similarity between the Spritiual Stone of Water and the Symbol of the Tune of Ages is not coincidental" - and many would argue that the similarity between Majora's Mask and the Fused Shadows is not a coincidence; even I have tried to show how the symbol on the Rito Chieftain's robes are a stylized Zora emblem. The problem is that they are not the same, and repetitive claims will not prove us right. For the record, the Zora emblem, as shown in The Wind Waker multiple times, does not have the three circles, while the Tune of Ages does.
 * "Jabun holding the Nayru's pearl" - is one example, and it appears to be based on a landtype triad, rather than an elemental - exactly like Rayquaza, Kyogre, and Groudon.
 * "Lanayru's role" - all we know is that she was praying to Lanayru to solve the problem faced by the province he protects. There is nothing to indicate that the other light spirits could not also bring rain, or that Lanayru could himself.
 * ":No circular argument, I'm saying that Din is associated with Valoo and the Rito because A: They have Din's pearl, B: In both WW and TP, Din is associated with birds, and the Rito are birdlike people, and C: Valoo is a firebreathing Dragon. To be honest, in game, Din is more closely associated with fire than anything else."
 * It's exactly a circular argument, because your claim that Din is associated with birds is due to you assuming she is associated with the Rito! And again, the Rito worship sky and wind spirits - claiming that Valoo is fire-elemental just because he breathes fire would make half the enemies in the game, even those that appear in Shadow, Wind, Spirit, or other temples as associated with Din.
 * "what's the difference between ages and time"-...seriously? one is the dimension/element controlled, one is how the land is unique due to that control. The same as Seasons and Nature.
 * "The Rito aren't the Zora, they descended from them, which is probably the reason why they wear the symbol of the Zora. Laruto being the Earth Sage does not mean that Zoras aren't associated with Nayru. For example, Ciela is the spirit of Courage, and Time. Does this dissociate Nayru from Time, simply because Courage is a virtue of Farore, or vice versa? Certainly not. It is merely an overlap."
 * The evolution theory is on very awkward ground, as I have been forced to discover. "Laruto/Earth Sage" - but it is a strong hit against it, as the Nayru connection is based on the very weak assumption that the Zora's Sapphire is associated with Nayru, while the Laruto-Earth connection is explicitly made in the game. This is why it's not smart to outright claim a connection with so many contradictions.
 * As for Ciela - it seemed more to be a connection to the seeming connect between life and time - then again, since she was using Phantom Spheres, associated with life force and thus Oshus, it is perfectly possible that all three spirits could do this.
 * I don't understand why you reverted most of my changes - the "Goddess of Time" bit, as you have written it, indicates that the characters believe this, and you removed the explicit references to the Ganondorf-Triforce deal in TP. Especially since the burden of proof is on you to prove these connections, and you additionally removed the helpful edits discussed above, I'm going to have to re-revert and ask that you make your case on the discussion page before restoring the old version. If we're going to claim something on the article, it has to be something with solid, almost explicit backing, and with few if any contradictions. In fact, we should provide a reference for it if it's not explicitly shown in the games. For example, the landmark thing - Zora commonly live high in the mountains, which you associate with Din, and forests are only ever associated with "Earth".
 * Here's a possible solution - if you admit on the article how the connection is assumed and what evidence is against it, it might be okay. But outright claiming something with so many contradictions is not right.KrytenKoro 14:04, 28 January 2008 (EST)
 * I've found something else - the Great Fairy of Forest, resembling Farore, holds the Earth-element inspired Key, the Great Fairy of Ice, resembling Nayru, holds the Water-element inspired Key, and the Great Fairy of Flame holds the Fire-element inspired Key. If we explain in the article that this is how we get these connections, we might be okay. But the race, landmark, and animal things have no good backing.
 * Hell, about races - it would be closer to say Power-Gerudo, Wisdom-Sheikah, Courage-Hylian - as Power is always with a Gerudo, Courage with a Hylian, and Zelda is commonly associated with the Sheikah and Sheikah symbols - also, the Sheikah artifacts the "Lens of Truth" and the "Mask of Truth" are said to allow Link to recieve "the wisdom of animals and inanimate objects". It's still pretty specious though.KrytenKoro 14:04, 28 January 2008 (EST)