Community talk:The Midna Art Debate

I think making a whole article for this debate was kinda over-doing it but, I'm happy with the way things turned out. Yeah sure, I made myself rather unpopular but, I'm happy.--Toon Link 20:07, 31 May 2008 (UTC)


 * 1) This what what was decided on, b/c it will serve as an example later.


 * 1) Don't worry about making yourself unpopualr. I made it clear that i didn't give a damn about the voting in the article. I am probably unpopular too ;) --Seablue254 21:36, 31 May 2008 (UTC)


 * This should be more open next time around. I was gone for three days and I completely miss the entire discussion. This is a bigger topic that goes far beyond just this one picture. At ZeldaWiki.org we are always looking for the most official 'canon' material. I believe that if an image is 'cleaned or cleared' for better display, than that is perfectly fine as being 'official' BUT Credit MUST be given to the person who did end up doing the editing. In this case, the image was NOT altered for simple clarification of a blurry screenshot. It was a fan made picture based on a character from the game in the style of Official Artwork. It is completely irrelevant how 'good' of an image it is or not. We need to credit more than just Deviant Art. That is like making a credit to the New York Times for a specific article... It needs to credit the author or illustrator more specifically. In addition to that, like it was decided, it needs to be separate from all official artwork. I also think that this artwork should NEVER be on the actual page, but just on the characters gallery, like it was chosen. Mases 23:30, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Image credited as requested. Also, please pay attention to the notices at the tops of articles from now on.--Mjr162006 23:49, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't think that this image should be on the main character page either, but for a different, and much less opinionated, reason. It is a HUGE SPOILER, much more so than any of the images currently on the page.--Mjr162006 23:56, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm not worried about being disliked, I have plenty of freinds off the internet. I'm not here to be liked, I'm here to improve this wiki.--Toon Link 23:59, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

As far as being open, we have Seablue254 and Jason to thank for ending it.--Mjr162006 00:11, 1 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Yeah. Thanks for putting blame on me. Don't forget you could have kept it going at anytime. :eyeroll: --Seablue254 00:18, 1 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I could have gone on for quite awhile. It had to be ended. The opposing arguments were the same every time. They were mostly opinion-based while mine were mostly fact-based. Sorry, but I have a habit of being brutally honest.--Mjr162006 00:21, 1 June 2008 (UTC)


 * ...so did i do good or bad? --Seablue254 00:42, 1 June 2008 (UTC)


 * In my book, good. Mases might be a little irritated though.--Mjr162006 00:44, 1 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm not irritated, but this is something that is very important to me. Before Zelda Dungeon joined the Wiki, a bunch of sites were thinking about creating our own Wiki for reasons like this. Wiki's are meant to be factual, they are encyclopedias and need to be based on official information. There is no place for fan made rumors, fan theories, or fan artwork on official wiki pages (like the Midna page). The arguments FOR using this artwork were that it was so well done that it almost looked official, to the point where it looked like a manipulated version of the real Midna. What does this say... If you make fan artwork that LOOKS real, then it can be used? So if the Midna artwork was just not that good, but still based off the real Midna, why not include that as well? Why not just a fan art section for EVERY character. That is laughable and just plain wrong for a Wiki. Also, you have to remember this is a Wiki. No single person's opinion is worth more than another's. Just because Jason, Seablue254, Mjr162006, Myself, or anybody else puts forth their opinion, doesn't mean anything. No single person opinion is final or should force other peoples to change their opinions. Let's take an image like... http://www.zeldadungeon.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/MeloraMap%7E0.jpg . The image is pretty darn amazing, based on the real overworld map, but still, its not official and shouldn't be on a FACTUAL page. Mases 03:24, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

That's one of the reasons why we are not going to put the image on the main article. It's too close to being fan-art. But we can't get lazy and have a one-size-fits-all policy. Each image should be decided individually. As many people have clearly said, this particular image is no more fan-art than a screenshot is. The decision on this image is final. I have a lot of trust in Jason. If he says it is not fan-art, then it is not fan-art. But you are quite right in that we can't have a fan-art section for every character. It would grow to much and over-shadow the official images. Our two active sysops have been keeping a close eye on the uploaded images. I trust them to recognize normal fan-art and to take the proper action. They have gotten rid of a few of them since I joined.--Mjr162006 03:48, 1 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I really hope that the debate doesn't spawn a debate.--Mjr162006 03:51, 1 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Hey, just woke up. now, Mases. According to what you're saying, we can only/should only use official art. I'm afraid that we would have to get rid of many pictures, such as screenshots, because those are not official. Alas, that is not going to happen, and therefore, fan art should still be allowed. Now Matt, i'm pretty sure that we can allow fan art up to a point, considering that it would over shadow the official images. --Seablue254 12:55, 1 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Uh, what? Screenshots are directly from the game with no modification to them; that counts as official. The piece in question is modified, though, and that's the issue. --Ando 13:00, 1 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Screenshots are ripped straight from the game and can be used because they are not fan created pieces of work. People should be credited for taking the screenshots, for the labor involved, but not for the actual creation of the picture. Screenshots are not artwork. They represent the game, not the person that is taking the screenshot. Not sure how you came up with the idea that I was inferring that screenshots are no good. Screenshots are fine and should be allowed. Mjr162006, lets please be a bit more reasonable. I know you put a lot of trust in Jason, but the way the Wiki is structured he has no more authority than any of the other 7 websites that are a part of the wiki. The discussion here is not what should be considered fan artwork, but rather, what should we do with fan artwork. Like I said before, it is a poor policy to accept fan artwork just because it is really good and closely resembles the game. The use of fan artwork should not be judged based on how good or accurate it is, that is not the point of fan artwork. If for some reason I am part of the minority and people want fan artwork on the Wiki, then there should not be limitations on how good or accurate artwork is. Mases 04:14, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

As an artist myself, I feel the need to butt in. Now I realize the picture was found on DeviantArt. And the artist placed it online for anyone to view it. But ripping it and using it other places takes it out of the artist's control. Not all artists would appreciate that, tho some would. Remember that Wikis are supposed to be completely open, which means that content found here can be used at your discretion. And thusly the artist becomes a nobody. Basically it's bad form to assume the artist wants his/her work on such an open site as wiki.

My art for example is LoZ related puzzles. Yes, I post them on forums and it doesn't cost anything to see them or try to solve them. But I draw the line at it ever turning up on a page here. The reason is bc I'd lose control over what happens to my work.Axiomist 05:40, 2 June 2008 (UTC)


 * A couple things. Mases, hold off on your comments please. You have made your opinion abundantly clear. We don't need it repeated another three times. Second, has anyone thought of actually contacting the author? Too late. I just did. I have a DeviantArt account. It won't be long now.--Mjr162006 08:25, 2 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I have a policy that I am going to adhere to from now on. There is no changing my mind here. First, a little background info: My dad is a teacher at the local school. He is the FFA teacher (if you don't know what that is just look here). He orders shirts for the class every year. A year ago, we had some with my new policy.
 * "We don't follow the standards. We SET the standards!"

- My new policy


 * It is time for us to be leaders, not followers. We need to be progressive. If we tighten our grip, we will only strangle ourselves. No more petty arguments over fan-art. Times change. Accept it. PS: Our FFA chapter is one of the best in the nation. We have more proficiency finalists than any other chapter in the United States. So yes, we DO set the standards. A proficiency (or SAE) is a three to four year project where we aim to better ourselves. I was state winner in Aquaculture. With all of this, I am not afraid to take on set standards. I welcome the challenge. Don't believe that I was a state winner? Then see this. I'm at the top. See what school had a lot of winners that year?--Mjr162006 09:25, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

That's a really good philosophy, I think I'm gonna have to adopt that one as well. Anyhow, that's cool that you contacted the artist/author of the picture. I think it would be a good protocol to attach "Used with permission from _____......" to the information page of the image. And that when someone uses fan art in the future, they should follow your example and contact the artist for permission. I think fan art should be avoided when possible. But Nintendo really doesn't release as much official art as we'd like. It was Midna today, but I'm sure something else will come along with the next 3D LoZ title.Axiomist 15:16, 2 June 2008 (UTC)