Talk:Spirit War/Archive 1

Order of events
I'm rather certain that Link and the pirates found the land after the war. An NPC in Castle Town says the tracks have been around since long before the land was colonized, and we know the tracks appeared after this conflict. Simple logic says that Tetra, Link, and the pirates had nothing to do with the event. Reign 21:29, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Quotes giving confirmation of that? I haven't gotten all the way through the game yet I'm afraid so it very well could be true, but you've not presented a specific quote or piece of evidence to help us get it right. Also, Niko states that the story comes from the "settlers", and his knowledge of the event seems to imply that he may have witnessed it, as he'd done with the previous two games. "This is a tale from long ago. It's the tale of the first settlers of this land." How do you explain that one? And if there is indeed a confirmation that the tracks existed before Niko and the others came, where's that quote for us to use? Link87 22:49, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
 * A guy standing by the station in Castle Town, the first one you see when you depart from the train. He asks about where the tracks came from, and if you know. I know for a fact he says it in the beginning of the game, I'll have to go back to see if his dialogue changes after the ceremony at the castle. If not, I'll get you thee quote. Reign 22:59, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Please do, because the two versions need to be reconciled. Niko claims that the story took place when they settled the land, and you're saying a guard claims they were around prior to that. So how are we to know which is true? I only went by Niko's version of events because he's the one that tells the story itself and was alive at that time. I want to make sure we have the full, complete story, but we've got a discontinuity here between the two. But what are we to make of Niko's assertion that it took place at the settling of the kingdom, that being his very first statement? Also, what are we to make of Hyrule's symbol appearing in the image of the period before the Demon King's rise to power? That seems to go hand-in-hand with Niko's version of events to me, saying that the land was settled and then shortly thereafter attacked by Malladus. Link87 23:06, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree that Niko's story makes sense, but I've found the man...He wasn't there on my main file, so I had to start a new one, and there he was. I guess he vanishes after the ceremnoy...Either way, the quote:
 * "By the way, do you know anything about these tracks? People say they've been around since before we came here. But how could that be?" Reign 23:18, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
 * That'd be a good piece of trivia to add, but that's not conclusive since even he asks how that could be so. Niko's been around a lot longer than he has, and his version of events seems to make the most sense. If you'd like to give me the name of the person, I can add in a trivia section noting it. But for the main events of the article, I think we're safer sticking with Niko's version of events myself. Link87 23:22, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't think the man ever actually had a name. He was just an NPC by the station, and after the ceremony I can't seem to find him in town anymore. But alright, sticking with Niko's story it is. Reign 23:30, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
 * When you say "NPC", what do you mean? I think at this point we're safer sticking with Niko's story since he'd probably know better than anyone else, and he is the one that introduces us to the story in the first place. However we can make note of the quote in question in a Trivia section, but I'm unclear on what you mean by "NPC". Link87 23:33, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Non-player character? 23:39, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

That makes sense, as the letters match. I think he was perhaps more confused about the story of the tracks than we were though, as he even questioned how that assertion could be true, as though he knew better. Link87 23:42, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, sorry, NPC is "non-player character".I thought it was a common phrase? And yes, you're probably right about the man being confused. Reign 23:44, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
 * It's all good, and I took care of it. I made note of the exchange in question and cited it properly. This is good that we have people that can point things like this out b/c it allows us to cover all the bases, so thank you nonetheless for spotting this Reign. Link87 23:53, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
 * There's more evidence for the Spirit Tracks being older, you know. It's stated that Anjean and the Spirit Tower were there before Tetra arrived.  And since the Spirit Tower's entire purpose is to imprison Malladus, well...you do the math.LinkIII816 03:21, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Niko is also telling about the "First settlers of this land," which would be the Lokomos, since the Hylians didn't arrive until much later. Niko also tells it like it's an ancient legend, not something he experienced firsthand. Zelda also says "It's said that our kingdom was established about a hundred years ago...But I hear that the Spirit Tracks are even older than the kingdom." Most evidence points to the war happening in the distant past, something that Niko was not directly involved in.Ganondorfdude11 03:28, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Niko would not be so knowledgeable about it if that were the case, and the drawings he showed did not show Lokomos, they showed human-like beings. He also states that the land was given over to them entirely at the end of the war, so what you just said doesn't seem in line with that. That statement alone seems to confirm that they were indeed present at the end of the war. Link87 03:45, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Lokomos are human-like beings. The ones we see in the game are old an need wheelchairs. Byrne is a Lokomo and he looks almost indistinguishable from a Hylian. Point being, we have two references to the Spirit Tracks being older than the kingdom of Hyrule, and none to Tetra and Link being involved in the battle. Niko also does not claim first-hand experience with the war, he is retelling an old legend. If he was involved, wouldn't he put pictures of himself and his friends in his slideshow, as he did in the prologue of ? He says the land was given over to the "settlers," which could not be the Hylians, because the Hylians had only been in the land a hundred years while the Lokomos were there much longer than that. Additionally, "the land was entrusted to us" could mean "the people," since Niko is not an immediate participant in the story. Ganondorfdude11 03:50, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
 * You're not going to controvert Niko's words GD11 "...this land was given over to us." Unless that quote is wrong, the burden of proof is on you to prove Niko wrong. Link87 03:57, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
 * The quote is not wrong, but we have two quotes contradicting your interpretation of it. Niko does not describe himself as a participant in the story. From the point of view of the story and storyteller, "us" could mean "the people," "the settlers," or many other things. We have two quotes stating that the Tower of Spirits was around long before the Hylians got there. Are we just going to ignore them? We can't argue that Zelda is "simply confused" and explain that one away now. Ganondorfdude11 04:00, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Neither one of the quotes you're suggesting is even sure of itself, they are questions of themselves. They "hear" something but aren't "sure" of it. Niko gives us the full history of the conflict and specifically states that it was given over to "us" at the end of the war. That's just how it is, and unless you have a more concrete quote that gurantees otherwise, Niko's version is more prevalent considering he was there. Link87 04:02, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
 * "He was there" is your assumption. Nowhere does he say that. Zelda is not unsure of herself when she says that the Spirit Tower has been around longer than the kingdom. Point being, we have two quotes that say the war happened before the Hylians got there. We also have evidence that Anjean knew Tetra when she came to settle the land. Anjean is the guardian of the Tower of Spirits, and yet she speaks of the legend as if it were an ancient folk tale. Someone who was there at the time the Hylians arrived speaks of this war as a "folk tale." This implies that it happened a long time before even Anjean was born. Ganondorfdude11 04:13, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Let's think: Niko was with Tetra and Link at the time, and he said the land was given over to "us", now what's that mean? It means the land was given over to the first settlers of Hyrule, which were them. Sorry bud but this is one instance where I'm afraid Niko's version is more concrete and makes more sense. Link87 04:16, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Anjean was there and she says it was a folk tale. Anjean met Tetra and Niko, and yet she refers to the story of this war as a "folk tale." The indication is solid that it happened long, long ago and that Niko wasn't involved. Again, "Us" could just mean "The human race," "the people," or any of these. It doesn't imply direct personal involvement in the affair. Again, someone as ancient and wise an Anjean speaks of this conflict, which according to your timescale she should have witnesses, as a folk tale. Ganondorfdude11 04:20, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
 * You have no solid proof to prove what you are saying, merely two quotes that come from people that weren't even there and that question themselves as though they aren't even really sure. We have someone that's over a century old that was one of the first settlers and founders telling us that he and they were there. As I said, you need more than just questionable statements to overturn Niko's version of events. Niko says the land was given over to "us" at the end of the war, that indicates that they were there. Nothing you've said or presented disproves that I'm afraid. The war occurred aroun the time they arrived there, that much is clear. Link87 04:22, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Ignoring evidence won't solve anything. We know that Anjean knew Tetra, yet she describes the story like this: "Only what the folktales say...Long ago, the spirits of good and the Demon King were embroiled in a never-ending war. In the end, the spirits could not defeat him. But they did manage to imprison him in this tower." Here we have someone older than Niko, who met Niko and was there when Tetra founded the kingdom, describe it as a "folk tale." Why would she do that if she was there? Simple. She wasn't there. This is not a "questionable" statement. Ganondorfdude11 04:27, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Lol, everyone considers it a "folktale" by the time of the game GD11, that's no real evidence at all. It occurred a century before, so that's to be expected. And once again, nothing she says proves what you're saying, you're trying to draw evidence from something that's not really evidence. Niko directly addresses the story saying "us", and he was one of the first settlers. Therefore, his word carries more weight, especially when he's the one that tells us the story in the first place. As far as I'm concerned, this debate is closed unless a piece of "direct" evidence referring to the story of the war itself (not vague references or statements) manifests itself. If there is something that directly proves that the war took place long before its founding by Link and Tetra, I'm all for changing it. In the absence of that however, I go with the person that told us the story in the first place. Link87 04:30, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
 * It already has manifested itself, and you are simply choosing to look the other way and ignore the evidence. Why would someone who was there call it a folktale? It's also your assumption that Niko was there. Nowhere in the game does it indicate that Niko was there when Malladus was bound. We have three quotes disproving this, why should your interpreation of one word in Niko's intro be given more weight than this evidence that contradicts it. The principle should be, if one's interpretation cannot stand up to contradicting evidence, then it is simply incorrect. Why would these references to the Spirit Tower being older than Hyrule be in the game if they weren't true? Would the game designers deliberately lie to us? We have no indication that these statements are supposed to be false, mistaken or otherwise erroneous. They do not contradict anything as said in the game, they only contradict your theories.Ganondorfdude11 04:37, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Idea! Just give it a rest as it is, bc neither of you are expected to come to terms with any disputes. I'll get the game on 12-25, and will eventually be able to see what the deal is. Few other staff members have played through either, and there's plenty of other articles to work on. 04:38, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree, GD11 should not be tampering with it unless he has direct evidence to prove what he's saying and until everyone has a clear idea of their opinion on the subject. He needs to let it be, and we do have other work to do. Link87 04:42, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Of course you agree, you're the one opposing him in the first place -_-. There's another pretty huge piece of evidence that no one has brought up yet: Byrne.  Anjean says that he has had over a century to train since he left her.  Link and Tetra arrived in the new Hyrule about a century ago, as we've already established; this means that Byrne would have left Anjean before they even arrived.  Even if the statement "over a hundred years" is interpreted to mean only just over a hundred years, coinciding with the arrival of Link and Zelda...think about it.  The Lokomo would have only JUST arrived at that point; Byrne would need time being Anjean's apprentice before becoming dissatisfied, and the timeframes given in the game just don't match up if Malladus is imprisoned after Link and Zelda's arrival. LinkIII816 00:15, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

Well he's not arguing with himself here, so if changes are made just let it be until others had a chance to play, the game has only been out for a week now. And Christmas time for me meant not making a sacrifice-not buying something I really want-to instead buy things for other people. 05:11, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Mind if I may make a suggestion? Whatever the case, I think the page be locked until at least Christmas, to give some time for more people to play the game and form what they think happend based on the contrasting lines (Niko's and Anjean's, respectively), then unlock it amd resume this discussion a few days after Christmas? Reign 06:35, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't see a need to lock a page unless edits are being detrimental to the overall function of the wiki, though your goals are in the right place. We don't want to set the precedent of locking a page merely b/c of different viewpoints. Right now, only what is known at present is stated. Niko gave us the full story of the war, and his viewpoint reflected in the description of the war in the main part of the article. The secondary statements that only question the time the war took place but give no true confirmation of anything have been listed in trivia until further notice, or until more direct evidence arises to confirm their value. If such evidence does exist, I'd be more than happy to change the article, but until that time, I do not support changing the main series of events stated by Niko based upon a couple of non-confirming statements that don't sound sure of themselves. "How could that be?" That does not instill much confidence and instead sounds more like confusion. The main events detailed by Niko should not be altered if such statements do not have direct confirmation to back them up. As I said though, if such evidence arises, of course then I would certainly support changing it. Link87 07:04, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Chris has got the idea, so everyone! Find evidence of your claims! BREAK! 02:02, 24 December 2009 (UTC)