Talk:Hyrule

Locations and Landmarks
Hey guys, I have a question to put to some of you: As the article enters its final stages, we are approaching some sections that could be as big or small as we choose. However, what those who are working on the article, along with myself, need to know is just what locations and landmarks would you like us to include? Do you want only the most important places and recurring locations, or would you like a section on each major section of Hyrule that is featured? What I am concerned about is that, just as Matt said yesterday, that the size of the article is going to balloon out of control without some guidelines of what you would like to see in the article. We can make it however you like, but we need to know just what locations and landmarks you'd like us to include. The games by appearances are complete, and if we can at all make them smaller we will, but we've already cut those down pretty good for size purposes. So if some of you could offer your input on what or how many locations and landmarks you'd like us to include and how in-depth you'd like us to go into descriptions of each, it'd be a great help for those of us working on the article. Thanks! Link87 15:47, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I think the descriptions of the places should be trimmed down a bit, as we have the main articles for those places. However, I think that most of the similar locations should be mentioned in the same section. e.g. Mount Crenel and Death Mountain would go in the same section, as would Desert of Mystery and Gerudo Valley.Ganondorfdude11 16:19, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Splitting the page
The page is way too long for most web browsers to handle. I get errors a lot just by trying to edit it. Maybe we can do something like make sub-pages for each major section like moving the Appearances section to its own page, and the Locations section when it's done. Ganondorfdude11 23:13, 27 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Splitting all the sections into subpages, then including the subpages back on the front page will make things a lot easier. Less errors and easier to spot mistakes. Because then you'd only be editing small pages at a time. And any changes you make to the subpages would show on the front page. Any pages included on it will be listed at the bottom of the edit view of the page. Just ask for help with this if any help is needed. We'll watch and be on standby to help either way. 23:21, August 27, 2009 (UTC)
 * Okay, what's the way to go about doing this? Ganondorfdude11 23:24, 27 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Good thinking, I'll make some cuts to the page. Mainly to appease the rest of the staff, but it has benefits to the two of you as well. It's too much info to contain all in one place, and despite the well done writing, it's likely to turn off readers. The races section can be summarized SIGNIFICANTLY and link to a page aptly titled, oh idk "Hyruleans" where the expansion can go berserk. But if the two of you are working all the way down here, I'll focus on the upper portions of the article. This will be later tonight, when I'm less distracted. 23:25, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
 * How do you create a subpage?Ganondorfdude11 23:32, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I think the main thing we should do is move the Appearances by Game section to its own page. How do you do that? Ganondorfdude11 05:14, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
 * It can be included back in the page by placing   where you want the section to be. That way you can have all the content on the page, without the editing glitches. 06:06, August 28, 2009 (UTC)
 * That's an excellent idea Matt, and I'd like to say good job Ganondorfdude11, I am very pleased with how things have been rearranged and trimmed without compromising the integrity of the article. I will will be continuing writing the sections for Locations and Landmarks, but how in depth would you like me to go with them as far as which ones to include??? For example, Death Mountain returns MANY times and is a definite yes to be included, but what about such places as the Parapa Desert that only appear once???


 * I also have another question: the pictures of Hyrule. I know we still have them in the subpage of the article for the Appearances by Game section, but should we include those pictures on the main page of the article as well in the gallery?? I don't care one way or the other, but seeing that we have the leftover pictures down in the gallery, I didn't know if some of you wanted to include those pictures on the main article page in the gallery or not. What are some of your feelings in regards to this?? Link87 16:02, 28 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Galleries are usually very integral, I would think either removing from the sections, or preferably another page for it. (like the Link and Zelda articles) 16:34, 28 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Ok, can you clarify a bit for me? So you would like to remove the pictures from the sections and the gallery and make a different subpage for it?? I just want to be sure I understand correctly. Link87 18:17, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I could see making a subpage for it. Link and Ganon have them. This article needs one, too. I say keep the maps on the Appearances page, they go well with the description of how the geography changes from game to game. Ganondorfdude11 20:03, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Protected Page
I have protected the page because there has been too much drama involving it. The time has been set as indefinite, so who knows when it will be unprotected? However, for now, it stays protected. Go work on something else. --Xizor 05:01, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I beg your pardon Xizor, but we're nearly done with the page, and we've come to agreement on what we are to do with it. Once it's completed, we planned to submit it to the council of admins for their critique and for them to let us know what they would like to keep or not keep. I think it would be most wise for you to reconsider your decision and unlock the page so we can finish it. We're very close to it now as it is. I don't see your reasoning for locking it, it's only keeping us from finishing the project. And since we're this close, I think you'd like the end result far better if you would let us finish the last section on races and let us get the references into the page. That's really all we have left to do. Link87 14:28, 17 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Christopher, without wishing to sound patronising, I'd like to thank you for responding so calmly and reasonably. I must say though, that I can understand Xizor's frustration with the upheaval and stress that this project has resulted in. Apart from the many lengthy discussions and disagreements surrounding this, I see that there have been 364 individual edits to this page over the course of the past six weeks; excessive by anyone's standards. I think I speak for everyone when I say I'm sick of the sight of it in the Recent Changes, and just want this interminable project to be finally over! My suggestion to you would be this; we'll leave the page protected for now. You should copy the current contents into a text document on your computer, and make all of the changes you propose for the "final" version. Then let us know here on the talk page, and it can be unprotected again so you can finish the work. I hope that's a compromise that works for everyone, and allows us to reach a conclusion. 17:52, 17 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I agree completely, Adam. This project has been excessive. Not to mention all the disagreements/edit wars involved regarding it. 18:16, 17 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Glad that's settled. Also, I am going to leave the talk page unaltered, because apparently the back up caught this thing up and now this page has two sections about the page being protected. Oh well! We'll see if we can come back to this page sometime in the future. For now, the decision stands, because as I said, myself, and many other Bureaucrats and Admins made this decision. --Xizor 20:57, 18 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Actually, I know of some admins that don't agree with the decision to lock the page, especially after we've just completed the final stages of the locations and landmarks page. That's not to sound impolite at all, just a stated fact. Anyway, I am requesting that the page be unlocked so we can finish the final section on races, which should only take a few edits at most, and so we can put references in. Then we are done with the entire project. So, if there is no further reason to keep it locked, it would be helpful if one of you could unlock it so we can put the final touches on it. Btw, Adam I thank you for your calm and polite manner of explaining things, and I can understand what you are saying. However, this is coming a little late to be much of any use, b/c the project is pretty much complete, save for the races section. Also, this was the wrong page to protect, as the one that's required so much work in reality has been the locations and landmarks page. I am writing Dany to ask her to do her work with the references for that page and the appearances by game page. I will try to type out a rough blueprint of what we can have for the races section, but I will certainly need it unprotected to put that final piece in to complete the entire project. WOO HOO!!! ;) Anyway, I thank you Adam and greatly respect you for being civil and explaining to me your point of view, and I can certainly understand what you are saying, as this has been a mammoth project due to the topic at hand. Mandi, this is not to mean any disrespect at all, but with a topic this big, one could only expect there to be A LOT of edits to this page, especially when we had to start from scratch basically. However, I am happy to report to all of you that the bulk of the project is now complete, with only the races section and the references remaining. Then we shall at last be done. Link87 21:21, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

A loud minority will not overrule any majority, loud or otherwise. Your request is denied at this time, and the page will remain locked until the ENTIRE staff agrees that it is in the best interest of this Wiki to do so. If you think your edits are so important, you can ask an admin to do them for you. However, one admin does not have the authority to simply overrule another Admin, or Bureaucrat especially, just because they don't like a decision. We have methods, and they all involve discussion and vote. However, the issue will be brought up again to the staff as a whole, and a collective decision will be made. And, no matter how much you kiss up to Adam, he will not simply unlock this page against the will of many other Staff members. If the page is to be unlocked, we will all decide it. I locked it for a reason, and that reason will be respected until we find that it is no longer valid. I must say, though, you're reacting exactly as we all anticipated, and it certainly isn't speeding along the process. My advice is thus: find something else to work on, because I promise that this issue will be discussed heavily, and whatever the outcome is, you will respect it. Also, I would appreciate it if this was not met with some lengthy reply, because I honestly don't care. Just let us do our jobs. Thanks. --Xizor 00:12, 19 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Xizor, please do not take what I'm about to say the wrong way, you do have some degree of respect from me to be sure. However, in reality it is you that is reacting exactly as some others including myself predicted, combative and unwilling to compromise. Matt was kind enough to compromise when we brought all the details to light before, but I have yet to see that same good faith from you. You will get no true respect if you treat others in a poor manner, namely me. And if you would like to earn respect from some, you really need to get over the whole "I'm a bureaucrat so I'm above the law" thing, b/c nobody is above the law, as some of you so ably put it. You will show respect if you want it. I will respect you, but I don't have to like you or your attitude if it is not a polite manner. And please forgive me any of you that take this as being disrespectful, b/c I do not intend it to be so, but I will stand up to those who try to bully. So please be aware that I am not being disrespectful when I respond to things like this, but I am giving a calm response of what my opinion on the matter is. So please Xizor, understand that I think highly of you for what you do for the wiki, but you won't get much respect if you don't try to show it in return. This is just to help you, not in any way meant to disrespect you. And to be honest, I see no reason for the page to be locked, and didn't see one to begin with to be honest. I encourage all of you to come together as Xizor has said and hopefully come to a decision to drop this unnecessary lock b/c we are only two steps away from completing the article. If I'm not mistaken, the law clearly states that admins or bureaucrats may only lock a page in the event of vandalism or an edit war, neither of which has taken place. I am just being honest when I say that I have always been under the idea that a page may not be locked by any one member merely because they feel like it. I could be wrong in believing that, but if I remember correctly, that's how even wikipedia operates. Again, this is not to sound disrespectful, but I am one that believes that just rules are made for a reason. And as some put it so well, this wiki does not belong to a single person Xizor, even you, so before saying anything is "denied", I think the other leaders of the wiki deserve some say in all decisions, not merely one person. And I have yet to see where it takes unanimous approval by all admins to drop a lock on a page made by one person, though once again I could be wrong. If that were the case, there'd be a lot of gridlock, and I have never heard of anything of the sort even on wikipedia. This is not meant to be disrespectful, but these are just my experiences in researching rules for wikis, especially wikipedia itself. I don't want anyone to think I'm sneering at them b/c I'm not at all, but it just seems to me that there really isn't and to my knowledge wasn't a reason to lock the page. If the reason was for number of edits as I said before, that would be understandable completely, but it's too late to be of any use in that regard, since we're basically done save for one small section. I could have that last section done in an hour if the page were unlocked, then Dany could do the references. The choice is yours, but I strongly encourage and hope all of you will be willing to see reason and reopen the page so we can complete it. It's just a few paragraphs from being done, so there's no real legitimate reason to keep it locked, that's just being honest. Once again, it's not meant to be disrespectful, but it's the truth. I look forward to conversing with all of you again soon, perhaps on Skype. ;) Link87 01:03, 19 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Do you just not read or do you not care? I told you that 1.) This was a collective decision made by many of us, I just was the one who suggested it and then carried it out, and 2.) I don't want a lengthy reply. We are ALLOWED to lock pages for any reason we see fit - there are no "laws" we have to follow, and any policies we have in place are explanations for each other and users, not binding rules for us. We have nothing to do with Wikipedia, and I don't care what they do. I also anticipate, in light of some recent discussion, the page staying very locked. Expect some other Admins to post in here with their viewpoints. --Xizor 07:45, 19 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Xizor is correct when he says that it was a majority decision to lock this page. The decision was not made lightly, and was heavily discussed amongst the staff before the page was locked (I'm not going to repeat the reasons why, as they have already been listed). Likewise, the page will be unlocked when the majority of staff agree that it is time to do so. In the meantime, I hope you are still willing to go along with Adam's suggestion to work on the final edit externally (i.e. in a Word Processor or similar) and then either post it here on the talk page or send to an admin, so that the page can be updated. I think it's the best solution for this article. Lysia 08:34, 19 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I still fail to see any REAL reason for the page to be locked. Drama is not a legitimate reason to lock a page. And yes Xizor, there are limits to an admin's or bureaucrat's power. They are to use them only where necessary, and that is a sacred trust they are sworn to. I'm not saying you don't abide by that, but your attitude does not help matters at times, it only makes them worse. You must realize that people will be willing to work with you far better if you would approach them in a different manner than lashing out, threatening and trying to puff yourself up more than what you should. Again, please don't take this as disrespect, b/c I am trying to help you there.


 * Lysia, not many of the admins I spoke to last night seemed to want to keep this page locked indefinitely, and many seemed willing to reopen it since it's basically done. All that needs doing is one last small section, so again there is no real reason to keep it locked. There are only small edits left for that last section, and it's complete at last. And as I said, of course I am willing to draw up the text for that final section, but it would be in faster and we could get the references in faster if it were unlocked. And again not to be disrespectful at all, but you locked the wrong page if you were trying to avoid a lot of edits, b/c this wasn't the page that was getting all of them, it was the L&L page. I shall however work on the text as you asked and submit it here so we can satisfy everybody. Link87 14:13, 19 September 2009 (UTC)


 * What "law" is there that Xizor, Lysia, and myself are not above? We're talking about the wiki, not the US government. The administrators and bureaucrats are the law. And I don't believe this page was protected because of "drama." However, I think it should be made very clear that "drama" is a perfectly legit reason for locking a page if we decide it is. The real reason is excessive edits. This page has received constant edits flooding the recent changes for over a month. I was ready to lock this page after 2 days of it.


 * No one wants to lock it "indefinitely." We want to lock it until you have a clear idea of what the the complete page is. We have decided this is the best action for this situation - we're not going to lock every big article and ask the contributors to write everything up outside the wiki (this is a very special case). Once you submit your work, it will be looked over and slimmed down (if necessary) and then published. Perhaps then we can talk about unlocking the page. I don't want to have it unlocked and then see you, or anyone else, just start up the constant edits again despite the fact that "version 1" is "done." --Yumil 15:31, 19 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, Yumil pretty much just said what I wanted to :P I agree completely.
 * "Lysia, not many of the admins I spoke to last night seemed to want to keep this page locked indefinitely"
 * That was a minority. This is a majority that has agreed to keep the page locked. Like it or not. Too bad. 15:58, 19 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Mandi, please do not take this the wrong way, but your sarcastic tone doesn't help matters either at times. I've been able to talk to you before calmly and like a couple of friends, I would prefer to keep that tone between us and refrain from this kind of behavior that only encourages friction. Adam was kind enough to keep a calm and civil tone above, and I greatly appreciate and respect him for that consideration on his part. And he also explained his position rationally, and I could understand where he was coming from without anyone having to get sarcastic or nasty. But rather than just being a yes-person for whatever side seems strongest, I think you would be so much better served to be open about what you really want and feel. And as for the "minority", that minority represents the very best of your ranks that genuinely cares about this wiki and building good relationships with its users. To refer to them in a demeaning way is not constructive either, so I would prefer we maintain civility in our conversations and refrain from referring to people in any ways that can be interpreted the wrong way. Again, none of this is to be disrespectful at all, but also as just a few words of friendly advice in good faith.


 * As for you Yumil, I'm going to save a copy of this page, and next time anyone dares to accuse me of "owning the wiki" or acting like I'm "above the rules", I'm going to pull this page up and prove otherwise. Yes, admins and bureaucrats are executors and enforcers of the rules, but not the sole "kings" of the wiki. They too have rules that they must abide by, as that's what gives them any kind of legitimacy or credibility. By not abiding by them, they not only set a bad example for regular users like me, but they also forfeit that legitimacy and credibility. This is not meant to be disrespectful at all, but just being honest, so please don't take it the wrong way. Also, just in case you haven't read all that's been said on the page here, the page IS complete, save for one last small section, so the complete page is basically already here, as I've been saying.


 * Those replies aside, I will work on the text for the final section and submit it here, even though I still don't see the need for a lock when all the work's already done. I will work on the pictures and text and submit them here for your viewing, just to appease those who are adamant to see it first. But Mandi, as I said, you locked the wrong page if you were worried about edits, b/c the L&L page was the one getting all of that, and none of you have explained why that page was not locked and this one, which was basically already done for the most part, was locked. I could understand your reasoning had it been that page, but not this one. And please don't take this as a sign of disrespect at all, but if you're worried about a lot of edits, you may want to be prepared for this kind of thing in the future, b/c although I'm going to work my best to avoid making more work for you than is absolutely necessary, there will no doubt be others down the road that will probably. What were you expecting also, with an article of this magnitude and having to start from scratch with no set blueprint for its makeup from anyone, not even the admin council, though we did ask for their input on it more than once? Multiple edits were almost unavoidable in that respect, but had you let us know from the beginning of the project that you cared so much about having more edits to deal with, we could have taken other measures to work around that. Again, not meant as a diss or a sign of disrespect at all, but just a word of advice from a friend.


 * I shall report back to all of you when I have the text completed for the races section. Link87 05:32, 20 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Christopher, while I like you trying to keeep this civilized, please try to understand. Edit fights go no where, so the only way to stop it without deleting the page is to lock it.  Yes, higher ups have rules, but locking a page is in their power, and the action is not without reason.  If it was to be unlocked, hell would break loose, I can assure you that.  Therefore, the page will stay locked until further notice.  05:54, 20 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Austin, I understand what you are saying, but please try to understand what I'm saying too: the page is already complete. You're going to have to unlock it sooner or later, and edits will undoubtedly continue regardless of whether you have it locked for a week or ten years. But the article is mainly complete, with only that last section to put in, and I'm telling you that the chances of edit fights over it now are slim to none b/c it's already done with. Had this been done back when we were only like halfway done and there were edit conflicts going on over it, I could wholeheartedly understand your decision and would have even supported it b/c edit wars do nothing of benefit for the wiki and we could have worked out the details aside then. However, don't you think this is a little late to be of much use honestly? I can understand your wish to prevent edit fights, but without evidence of one, how can you predict that there will be, especially when it's already complete? It's not like this page is halfway done, you know what I'm saying?? Link87 06:00, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

You can post the whole finished draft in the Sandbox. In order to do your part on maintaining good workable relations with all of the staff, I'd recommend only one post there. So sleep on it, reread it, tweak as needed, etc then submit it to the Sandbox. Normally when I lock a page I try to resolve the conflict and mediate disputes, with the goal in mind to have the lock in place for only a very short time. While it's good practice as a Zelda Wiki.org Admin, I don't think it's a written rule. In best interests 06:04, 20 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I suppose I know where you are comming from, but a page truly never is "complete." There will always be people wanting to edit it, so there will always be edit wars that follow.  (Not right away, of course.)  In all respect, how can you predict when or when not a page is complete when such a thing is impossible?  If new information comes out, it's up to the higher ups to decide what to do.   06:08, 20 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Aye, but you can't keep a page locked forever simply on the "fear" that there will be an edit war. That serves no purpose really, do you know what I mean? We can go around all day saying "if we do this, then that will happen" but until you take the plunge, you never really know. And while you're right no page is truly ever "complete", the basic blueprint for it is indeed complete is what I'm saying. The meat of the article is complete. Therefore, as work is nearing completion, there really isn't much use for a lock on the page now, whereas there would have been 3 or 4 weeks ago. You know what I mean? Link87 06:13, 20 September 2009 (UTC)i

The page was locked because of, yes, the drama and strife surrounding it, as well as the massive amounts of edits. Let's hope that the talk page doesn't mimic the actual page. When I said "indefinite" I didn't mean "forever"; I meant indefinite, which means undefined, not definite. It could be unlocked tomorrow, or in November. We have no deadline. The page probably will not be locked forever, though that's certainly not impossible to conceive of. This lock is unique for many reasons, and some of them are reasons that are only shared amongst staff. ;-) Anyhow, unless you're posting the rest of the page changes, or something new/relevant needs to be seed, let's stop cluttering the Recent Changes page with edits to the Talk page, eh? Thank ye.

And by the way, I lived up to my word and brought up the issue again to the staff, and the lock remains, as it stands. That could change tomorrow or the next day, but don't count on it. And, in case you were curious, I read everything everyone has said here. --Xizor 07:26, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Cutting Down?
After looking at this page's fully complete state, and then examining its size, I'm not entirely sure what can/should be cut out. The only sections I think that may need to be trimmed are the Races sections, because we have articles about each of those races, and some of those articles are nearly as long as the sections on this page. Other than that, it looks pretty good. --Xizor 06:28, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Each paragraph in the races section covers stuff already in the main articles. I say trim them to a few sentences each. Ganondorfdude11 23:22, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I concur with Xizor and Ganondorfdude11. I do agree they have a lot of information and we can trim them down. Can you tell us what essential information you would like us to keep in the sections for races Xizor? Then I or someone can trim them to specifications. Link87 02:37, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
 * As for final edits or what not, if we're done, are we about ready to un-protect this page? I have a picture for the Zuna but I can't put it in until the page is unlocked. If any edits to the text for the races section are desired, we're going to need that access to be able to do that too. Link87 20:49, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

Saria Picture
Would someone mind swapping the picture of Saria with this transparent one? File:OoT Saria.png Thanks. 05:13, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

Alphabetization or Order of Appearance
Hey guys, I have a question to ask all of you, and I'd like your input on this if you have a little time: For the subsections like this one for the article, would you like us to alphabetize each section on this page? For instance, would you like us to alphabetize all the topics under "Forests" by name? Or would you like us to put them in order of appearance in the series? Either way is fine, but I'd like to do it the way that the majority would like to see it. I know most encyclopedias go by rules of alphabetization, so I wasn't sure if that's what you'd like us to do, or if you'd prefer we keep them in order of appearance as some other sources do. Link87 14:58, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Generalize
The only way I can see this going back into the article is to have the sections generalize itself :P Just the geographical nature of the area. Few other points need to be here, as we have articles on each section. From there we can decide if we ought to generalize to Deserts, Bodies of Water, etc, which I think we'll need to but, if it looks fine at that point then it can stay that way. Remember that the series isn't over so this will be an article expanded upon after most releases. (/cry-for-help) 05:07, 10 October 2009 (UTC)