Talk:Termina

Fixed spelling mistakes.

oops- sorry. I didn't see you had already fixed it. 00:18, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Parallel Universe?
"He found Termina to be separate universe parallel to Hyrule." That's what the page says. There is no evidence to back this up. We do not know where Termina located. It may or may not be a parallel universe to Hyrule. It could be a different part of Hyrule (in terms of the world). I've been watching this statement change back and forth for some time. What's not fact should not be stated here- it should be moved under a "theorys" section for this page. Unless someone can quote where it says it's a parallel universe. 07:00, 10 February 2009 (UTC)


 * "When Hyrule was created by the three goddesses at the beginning of time, there were certain side effects of its creation which Din, Nayru and Farore did not anticipate. As the three holy women breathed life into the world and chased away Emptiness, their potent breath slipped through tiny cracks in the folds of space and created millions of alternate worlds in the process. One of these worlds became the land known as Termina."
 * From Zelda.com. The site isn't always 100% correct, but as far as I know it's pretty widely accepted that Termina is a parallel reality, and it would also explain the parallel characters. Jimbo Jambo 07:09, 10 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Page six of the Majora's Mask manual:
 * ''"This is kind of a parallel world that is similar to and yet different from the land of Hyrule, which was the setting for The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time. Termina is a myterious place, and the people Link meets here may look vaguely familiar at first glance.
 * Clock Town rests at the heart of this world.''"
 * Seems pretty clear cut. The manual is canon. Or at least more canon than Zelda.com. 09:45, February 10, 2009 (UTC)


 * That's fine. There have been a few manual instances, but I'll assume it speaks the truth for now. It's kinda sad how you can't trust Zelda.com, huh? Just making sure everything is straightened out. 16:32, 10 February 2009 (UTC)


 * While neither source has incredible credibility, they do both say the same thing, and I assume they aren't written by the same people (and it would explain the parallel characters), so even given its tenuous support, I think it's safe to assume that this is what Nintendo had in mind for Termina. I'd like to cite these two things, but I'm not sure how to site a manual, and the website citation thing unfortunately doesn't put the quote on the page like the normal template, which is what I'm hoping to get.... Jimbo Jambo 16:51, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Alternate Characters
"This is kind of a parallel world that is similar to and yet different from the land of Hyrule, which was the setting for The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time. Termina is a myterious place, and the people Link meets here may look vaguely familiar at first glance." Since the lesson of Majora's Mask is Freindship (you don't miss someone untill they'r gone etc.), wouldn't that mean that the Terminians don't look like the hylians & link is just making them look like that sycologicly becuase he misses them? -- կրակ (խոսել) -- 23:22, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Alternate Link
In Majora's Mask, when you play the Elegy of Emptieness, the spirits of the people eased into your masks turn into figurines used to hold switches down. However, there is a Link statue to. See the image to the right. Could this imply that, when link entered termina, he replaced an innocent Terminian? -- կրակ (խոսել) -- 22:31, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, you're actually speculating that when an outsider arrives in Termina, he replaces his terminian counterpart... I think this is a separate theory that we may or may not consider... Anyway that statue is very interesting and needs a mention somewhere on the wiki! We may say that it possibly is a Terminian Link, but that the living terminian Link is never found... Or that it may just be a joke.--Kombatgod 06:46, 14 March 2011 (EDT)
 * I like that theory, but I'm not sure how much support it has from the community. Sounds like this should go to a Mastermind forum before ending up on the page. 11:31, 14 March 2011 (EDT)
 * The Elegy of Emptiness just leaves a copy of a soulless husk behind, which is almost exactly how Igos du Ikana describes it. The transformation masks do not contain the spirits of the fallen, but rather the bodies, because you've already allowed the spirits to pass on using the song of Healing. Zora Link looks like Link, because it's a combination of Mikau's body and Link's soul. Mikau's Elegy statue doesn't look like Link, because it has no soul. This explains why it's terrifying to behold, because it's an empty husk. This is also why Link's elegy statue looks so strange; it's just his body only then without a soul. Which would make "Ben" quite literally a soulless monster, but that's neither here nor there. Dekler 14:06, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

"Termina does not exist" theory
This theory has almost zero evidence to back it up, and seems incoherent. Is it supposed to be a part of a larger theory about the Hero's Spirit or a timeline theory? The manual says that Termina is a parallel world to Hyrule, so I think that rules out it not existing. Ganondorfdude11 06:13, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
 * There is absolutely no implication in the game or HH that the MM events were just a dream. I think it should be deleted. Zeldafan1982 22:42, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Personally, I agree with both of you-however, this theory is actually very common, and some people simply take it as fact. It has support, and seems possible-not to say that it is probable. I think that the theory should be kept, as whether it is true or not in our minds doesn't determine whether we keep it or not. 23:12, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
 * The support a theory has in the community is a factor, but I don't think it should be the only one. If it is something completely baseless (according to canonical sources of course) then it shouldn't be kept. What are the evidence of the game being a dream? A theory should be based on something and/or provide an explanation on stuff that are left unexplained, otherwise it is without merit. It may be good for a fanfic but it shouldn't be in a wiki, at least in my view. Zeldafan1982 23:46, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

The only "in-game evidence" is that:
 * Link returns to the same area that he began his adventure in the end.
 * Link fell down a "hole", so it's possible that he died or was unconscious, leading him to have a hallucation.
 * Termina could be called a "shadow" of 's Hyrule, with most characters' models and in some cases names being reused, so it could have been a dream.

The evidence against it is that:
 * No canon sources claim that it is true, or even suggest it. So, it is not (canonically) true.

Based on that, it would seem that the theory is untrue. However, ALL theories aren't completely "solid". I would keep it for now, and see if anyone else has something to say. 00:02, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
 * I will add two relevant quotes from HH: "Link borrowed Epona from Lon Lon Ranch. And after several months of wandering looking for his past friend Navi, he was lost in a mysterious forest. In the forest, there was a way to the parallel universe called Termina." [...] "After the adventure in Termina, his subsequent whereabouts are unknown."


 * If one reads those and the two pages about MM, there is no way he would think that the events could be a dream. So, the point is that if the developers describe the events as being real (or perhaps more accurately the Hyruleans since it is supposed to be a "telling of tales passed on through the ages by humans" as it says on page 68) we should take them as such, otherwise the resulting interpretation would only be suitable for a fanfic. Zeldafan1982 00:47, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

Offical Stance?
I've noticed that Terminians are not counted as a race. Is this because of a assumption that Termina was populated by Hylians or is the answer more involved than that? PureLocke 23:47, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Whereas the term "Hylian" refers to a certain race, Terminan might simply mean "inhabitant of Termina" which means that the Gorons in Snowhead would also be considered Terminans. Dekler 14:21, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

Official Site
The official Zelda Universe site has some interesting info that i think should be included

The Termina section found here explains the creation:

''When Hyrule was created by the three goddesses at the beginning of time, there were certain side effects of its creation which Din, Nayru and Farore did not anticipate. As the three holy women breathed life into the world and chased away Emptiness, their potent breath slipped through tiny cracks in the folds of space and created millions of alternate worlds in the process. One of these worlds became the land known as Termina.

It is possible that we would know nothing of Termina's existence if Link had not been led there by the mischevious ac''

Sakon's section found here confirms that Termina is real and continues to exist after Link's adventures.

''Sakon is the name of a common thief who plagued the merchants of Clock Town. He would likely have long ago been forgotten, but Link foiled his plans on one occasion and the story has been a favorite tale in Termina ever since.''--Fierce diety 22:29, 13 March 2011 (EDT)

Giants
Anju's Grandmother says the giants created Termina, not the goddesses. Is there any kind of canon contradictory evidence, because if not, we should assume the giants created Termina instead of the goddesses by accident. Nare 02:11, 26 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Anju's Grandmother merely states that the Giants are Guardian Deities who at one point lived together with all of the tribes in the center of Termina, before the Imp caused the people to spread in four directions together with the Giants. She specifically said that the Four Giants made the four worlds, which is a reference to the Zora, Goron, Deku and Ikana tribes that have established themselves in each of the four wind directions after the Four Giants have each walked a hundred steps. There is no canonical proof for who was directly responsible for the creation of Termina, although the Triforce does show up at places in the Ikana region. Dekler 13:56, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

One universe?
I know this idea is probably held by so few as to be almost obscure, but might it be worth mentioning the idea that Termina may not, in fact, be in another universe? Hyrule Historia does not actually state flat-out that it is one, and in both HH and the game's manual, Termina is simply called a "parallel world", which could admittedly refer to another universe, but is not definitively the same thing. The resemblances between the Terminans and Hyruleans could also simply be explained as a quirk of development (which it really was anyway- Nintendo simply re-used OoT's engine and character skins for most of the game's content), rather than a "parallel counterpart" scenario. Plus, the "alternate universe" scenario generates a few plot holes, such as how Link supposedly fell into a portal to reach Termina, but just rode Epona back into the Lost Woods; how the Skull Kid could supposedly move between the worlds even before acquiring Majora's Mask; and why the Triforce symbol would appear in the Ikana area (as, even taking into account the mysteries and theories about Stone Tower, there shouldn't have been any kind of way for information about the Triforce to reach Termina from another universe). Thoughts? Setras (talk) 00:39, 16 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Termina has always been another world. Because of its uncanny resemblance to Hyrule, it's called a "parallel world". But that resemblance was actually canny for say, it shares many elements from Hyrule, the legends and myths. They even know what the Triforce is. Link fell into a whole that lead him to another world, like it lead him to an alternate dimension. It may be one of the reasons why we also called it a "parallel universe" or "parallel dimension". It's never been another universe because it actually exists in the Zelda universe. Imagine what would happened to Hyrule if the Moon fell. My guess is that Termina is located somewhere on the planet, below the continent of Hyrule, because Link fell into a whole that lead him to Termina.

Anyway, Termina is another world, like Labrynna and Holodrum. The world of Mario, the Mushroom World is another universe. Worlds like the Dark World, Twilight Realm, the Sacred Realm are dimensions. I could go on but, I think I made my point. ^_^; --Prince Ludwig (talk) 02:16, 17 September 2013 (UTC)


 * And made it well, at that. :) But what I mean is, Hyrule and Termina are in the same dimension (or whatever term you'd prefer to substitute), existing on a supercontinent connected by a land bridge in the Lost Woods. The term "world" can be used to refer to a different universe/dimension, but it can also simply be an illustrative term (like how the "Old World" and "New World" both exist on Earth, but are regarded as different regions altogether). And yes, the Moon falling would likely take out Hyrule and the rest of the world, too, and probably do- we never see the rest of the world's destruction, but this doesn't mean it doesn't take place when the Moon falls. Setras (talk) 02:51, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Plus, the "alternate universe" scenario generates a few plot holes, such as how Link supposedly fell into a portal to reach Termina, but just rode Epona back into the Lost Woods; how the Skull Kid could supposedly move between the worlds even before acquiring Majora's Mask; and why the Triforce symbol would appear in the Ikana area (as, even taking into account the mysteries and theories about Stone Tower, there shouldn't have been any kind of way for information about the Triforce to reach Termina from another universe).
 * Regarding the first two points, we don't know how exactly Link returned to Hyrule. He could have used the portal that brought him to Termina. As for the Triforce symbol, I guess one can take it as a true reference to the Triforce, but it could also be a cameo. Anyway, it is possible that since the two worlds are connected with at least one "wormhole", that other people have entered Termina in the past. The two worlds don't have to exist in isolation in this scenario. Zeldafan1982 (talk) 21:30, 30 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Well, I suppose Link could have used the same portal, but I'm dubious about that, as the "portal" existed within the Catacombs, which in turn could only be accessed via the sealed door in the Clock Tower. The door was sealed all throughout the game, so I'm not sure if it would suddenly open at that point; and even if it did, the scene after the final battle seems to show Link riding directly into the woods, rather than going back through the tower.


 * The Triforce, meanwhile, was probably admittedly supposed to be a cameo, but by now it has spawned so many widely-accepted theories that this would really be moot anyway. This brings us right back to the question of how information about the Triforce could reach Termina, and really, this wouldn't prove one way or another if Termina was another universe or another country- either way, outsiders entered and colonized it. Setras (talk) 03:54, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

Somewhat confirmed entry point into Termina?
I do not know if it is worth noting or not, but I remember when I played Majora's Mask that Link did not appear on the map until after going through the twisted hallway (hallway right after the Deku Butler's son). Since this is the case, is it safe to say that until that point you were still in Hyrule and that that hallway is the "gateway" between the 2 universes?

Creation of Termina
According to Anju's grandmother the world existed long ago. The mask on the other hand is implied to have been stolen relatively recently. So, the world was not created by the Skull Kid. It got transformed. Zeldafan1982 (talk) 18:21, 8 May 2019 (UTC)


 * Anju's Grandmother is a product of that transformation and the world that she knows is informed entirely by what the Skull Kid and Majora's Mask created. We cannot take her testimony as impartial fact. TriforceTony (talk) 19:39, 8 May 2019 (UTC)

The Termina Retcon
I would ask that the recent additions to the Termina page be removed, specifically the snippet that states that the land of Termina is a creation of the Skull Kid's imagination and the power of Majora's Mask. This is nothing but conjecture on the part of the Encyclopedia's writers, and outright contradicts the game itself. How could the world be a fabrication of the Skull Kid's, when there is a cutscene of him 'in' Termina along with Tatl and Tail long before he first obtains the mask?. This is shoddy work done by Zelda Wiki, and should be rebuffed.
 * Encyclopedia is an official book both licensed and promoted by Nintendo itself. And not only that, they consider it canon as proven by the retcon in the timeline which fixes the placement of Link's Awakening and the Oracle games and is reflected in the official website for the series, in both Japanese and English. Also, please don't forget to sign your posts with four tildes ( ~ ). 01:01, 29 January 2020 (UTC)
 * It doesn't necessarily contradict the game. MM3D: is still a parallel world in 's narrative, just one that was altered by the power of MM3D:. The cutscene in question is also MM3D:'s retelling of events, which can be reasoned as hearsay or flawed from a developmental standpoint (which is to say they didn't develop the assets to frame the cutscene in for it to not include things created after the MM3D: changed the terrain). If we really want to get down to it, we know that the inhabitants of MM3D: are fabrications and we don't know for certain that MM3D: and MM3D: are exempt from that. What we know from that cutscene may very well be fabricated memories from when the MM3D: created new "friends".
 * And as Chuck already said, even if it were a retcon, it is now officially sanctioned as canon by Nintendo. It wouldn't matter if it contradicted the game anyway as it's clearly not an error so much as an alternate telling of events at worst. TriforceTony (talk) 01:32, 29 January 2020 (UTC)
 * That still doesn't explain the fact that Termina clearly doesn't "vanish" as soon as the spirit within Majora's Mask is defeated by Link. Or the fact that the Deku Butler is explicitly shown to be right in front of his son's corpse, which is in the portal between Hyrule and Termina, grieving for him. If the notion about what Hyrule Encyclopedia says about Termina's inhabitants is true, and that they are indeed fabrications (which, personally, I don't think there's any evidence for, outside of Hyrule Encyclopedia), this grieving the Deku Butler is doing shouldn't be even happening. So forgive me if I seem to be in full agreement with the original complaint. Just call me Al (talk) 15:02, 9 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Could you point out where it's stated that Termina vanishes or that it must vanish after the MM3D:'s defeat? That they are fabrications doesn't mean they aren't real and don't have feelings, emotions, or memories, just that they didn't exist until a certain point. TriforceTony (talk) 00:37, 10 February 2020 (UTC)
 * In response to your question, TriforceTony: 'Termina's existence was tied to that of Majora's Mask. When the evil in the Mask was defeated by Link, Termina disappeared soon after he left.' This sentence in the article is based upon the following."While the hero's pure heart allows the world of Termina to momentarily revel in its salvation, as soon as he departs, that world ceases to exist."  ('Encyclopedia' (Dark Horse Books) pg. 37)


 * I agree in part with Heronexus12 that, even though this explanation is currently "canon" as a result of the 'Encyclopedia', it seems to create more problems than it solves when taking into account the canon as presented in 'Majora's Mask':


 * (1) The idea that Termina ceases to exist at the end of the game runs counter to the themes of the game, which are about "friendship" and "moving forward". All those credits' scenes of the characters moving forward with their lives become pointless, not to mention the theme of the inexorable march of time which is itself a major theme of the game. Majora's Mask is very powerful, but not so powerful as to be able to influence time itself [edit: by binding Termina's time to itself]; if it were, then Link's victory by abusing the power of time would never have been possible: that the "Song of Time" works at all in Termina demonstrates that it is under the Goddess of Time's protection and is subject to her laws, and by extension the Goddesses', rather than Majora's.


 * (2) Why would either Skull Kid or Majora create an entire reality purely to destroy it when it lacks serious real-world consequences? Skull kid wants his revenge against the real people who banished him, so that isn't satisfied if the consequences are almost entirely fictitious [edit: at least as far as reality is concerned], and in Majora's case if it were made clear in-game that Majora's destruction would extend to Hyrule, for example, then maybe, but that isn't clear, and anyway Majora is very invested in the destruction being caused after countless years of languishing prior to being found by the Happy Mask Salesman. Otherwise, Majora would not have been so desperate to defeat Link, let alone make the moon declare "I will consume everything!" (which again implies that Majora cares about destroying more than Link, Skull Kid, the Happy Mask Salesman, and the fairies).


 * (3) The fact that the giants remember and are willing to forgive Skull Kid, contrary to what he himself believes about them, also demonstrates that they have a reality beyond Skull Kid's imagination. In fact this may be the most d*mning piece of evidence against the explanation put forward by the Encyclopedia. Their existence, not to mention the aforementioned motif of time, imply that there are greater forces at work in Termina that are outside of Majora's influence or control.


 * (4) The explanation put forward by the Encyclopedia is almost exactly the plot of The Legend of Zelda: Link's Awakening. From a purely authorial standpoint, it seems silly on its face to reduce the plot of The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask to a copy-paste of the plot of 'Link's Awakening'. This isn't to say the plot of 'Link's Awakening' is bad, far from it, it's just been done already (and I doubt it is Nintendo's intention to make them analogous adventures when Nintendo has made remakes of both games). Regardless of how or when Termina came into being (any possible explanation seems as good as another), it's very obvious even in the game itself that the world of Termina continues on after Link leaves it and it isn't "just" a dream in the way the world of the Wind Fish is.


 * Overall this explanation is lacking and, akin to how The Legend of Zelda: Encyclopedia overturned the one put forward by Hyrule Historia, likely to be overturned itself (at most as soon as Nintendo decides to reference Termina again in future games on account of its popularity). As a compromise, I suggest the article include both the explanations by Hyrule Historia and The Legend of Zelda: Encyclopedia as co-equal possibilities, list which volume gives which explanation, and leave it to the readers to decide if either or neither is plausible. After all, it allows the article to be more complete by including both possible explanations. - Webspidrman (talk) 22:20, 6 December 2021 (UTC)