Iwata Asks/Transcriptions

This page contains the transcriptions of every Zelda-related interview taken place during Iwata Asks.

The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (2006)
This interview features Satoru Iwata, Yoshiyuki Oyama, Keisuke Nishimori, Koji Kitagawa, and Atsushi Miyagi.

The Indefinable Essence of Zelda
Iwata

I would like to start talking about "The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess" today. Since many developers are involved with this project, I would like to have as many of them participate in this discussion as possible. First, I will talk with six young staff members who experienced being team leaders for the first time on this project. Just so you know, I am planning to talk with more experienced developers later on, and towards the end I will talk with the director (Eiji) Aonuma-san and (Shigeru) Miyamoto-san. So, let's start by having our young developers introduce themselves.

Oyama

I'm Oyama from Entertainment Analysis and Development (EAD). I was mainly responsible for designing the enemies in Zelda. Before this project, I worked on The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask, Pokémon Stadium 2, Luigi's Mansion, The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker, Pikmin 2 and The Legend of Zelda: Four Swords Adventures.

Nishimori

My name is Nishimori, and I also work in EAD. I was mainly in charge of designing the player, in other words, Link. Before that, I worked on the animations of the non-player characters (NPCs) in Wind Waker and the characters in Mario Kart: Double Dash!!

Kitagawa

I'm Kitagawa from EAD. With this project, I started out as a chief designer for the dungeons, but part way through the project I took over the entire direction of the dungeons, creating the puzzles and and other challenges for the player. Before this project, I worked on the terrain in Luigi's Mansion, the dungeons in Wind Waker and after that on the design of the game logo and title screen for Pikmin 2.

Miyagi

My name is Miyagi and I also work in EAD. I was in charge of planning the field design and managing the field design team. The main projects I have worked on before are Super Mario Sunshine and Pikmin 2, but between those two projects I was called in to provide support for some of the terrain graphics in Wind Waker.

Tominaga

I'm Tominaga, also from EAD. Just like Kitagawa-san, I worked on the direction of puzzles and challenges, but I was in charge of designing them for the field portion of the game. As for what I have worked on previously, I was responsible for the positioning of treasure boxes and enemies in Wind Waker. After that I worked on writing the text for Mario Kart: Double Dash!! and then worked on the game localisation for its worldwide release. Most recently, I helped with the debugging of Four Swords Adventures before working on the direction for Super Mario 64 DS.

Kyogoku

My name is Kyogoku from EAD. I was in charge of the overall script for this Zelda title as well as planning some of the events that used NPCs. I worked on the script of Four Swords Adventures before joining this team.

Iwata

I would guess that for all of you here today, this is the first project of this magnitude that you have worked on. The scale of development for a single title doesn't get any bigger than it was for this project. With a project this large, there is always the monumental challenge of including everyone's various ideas in the game while at the same time maintaining its overall integrity. If I were to pinpoint what it is that binds all of these seemingly disparate elements together, I would say that it is each individual's concept of what makes Zelda unique. I would like to ask each of you how you define that for yourself. Let's start with Oyama-san.

Oyama

Let's see...we are always discussing in the development team what it means for a game to be called a Zelda game, and I really think that there's no clear definition that is shared by everyone. It isn't like there are any rules written down on a piece of paper somewhere. What we do have are the unbroken traditions from the very first "Legend of Zelda" for the Famicom Disk System1. So we know for instance that Link holds his sword with his left hand...

Iwata

But we suddenly broke with that tradition this time, didn't we! (laughs)

Oyama

We did! (laughs) Since Link is controlled by the Wii Remote, he swings his sword with his right hand in the Wii version. I think that was the best solution, but even looking at this one point, there were people who said they thought Link should still hold the sword in his left hand. That would always lead to discussions about what the essence of a Zelda game is. We faced this problem when it came to the placement of enemies, the user interface and everything else you could imagine. And we found that we couldn't properly put it into words.

Iwata

It might not be articulated, but somehow there is a very mysterious shared sense of what this is, isn't there?

Oyama

There is, and that's why it's so difficult to put it into words.

Iwata

Moving on, can you give some examples of where in each of your specialised fields you reflected your definition of Zelda in the game? How about you, Kitagawa-san?

Kitagawa

Well, I was always thinking about puzzles because I was in charge of the dungeons. I thought the only way to learn what Zelda means was to play the previous Zelda games.

Iwata

The past games in the Zelda series act as a reference, something like a textbook, don't they?

Kitagawa

That's right, because as Oyama-san mentioned, there is nothing like a textbook where these things are written down. So I did my best to find what Zelda meant for myself by playing The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time, Majora's Mask and Wind Waker. What I came away with regarding the puzzles is that each one should build on what the player has already experienced. For example, after the player solves a puzzle by destroying a rock, just when they think that the next puzzle will be the same, you put the rock up somewhere high where it can't be reached. I feel that this gradual stepping up of puzzles is the essence of a Zelda game.

Iwata

In other words, what the player has just done will be useful to them, but by itself it isn't enough to solve the next puzzle. So you feel that making the player think about that extra step is what makes a Zelda game?

Kitagawa

That's right. But it's not enough for it to simply get progressively more difficult. Once the player solves a puzzle, they should be able to move through the game smoothly for a while. In that sense, it's different from the type of games typified by the Mario series that steadily become more difficult.

Iwata

There is definitely an action-game aspect to Zelda, but it's a little different from the type of game where the player simply learns by repeating the movements over and over again.

Kitagawa

I think that's right.

Iwata

Nishimori-san, you were in charge of designing Link and his movements. What do you think is the essence of a Zelda game?

Nishimori

Up to now I have known Zelda as a player, and what I have always admired about the essence of Zelda games is that when the player wants to see what will happen when they try something, there is always an appropriate response to it in the game. For example, there might be a switch in a dungeon that looks like it should go down if something heavy is placed on it, and the game meets those expectations. Because the game lets the player experiment with so many choices, it doesn't feel like you are being forced to do things. This gives the player the sense that they are making progress in the game by virtue of their own experiences and working things out on their own. For me, the essence of a Zelda game is that feeling the player gets when they are able to solve puzzles in their own way. This is what I kept in mind when I was working on this project.

Iwata

Zelda games do meet the expectations of users in this way, don't they? And that's not only true for puzzle-solving. It also applies to situations in which the player decides to remember the result of taking a particular action because they are sure it will be useful down the road.

Nishimori

That's exactly right.

Oyama

What you just mentioned is something that we were keenly aware of during development, and it's something we struggled with, too. For example, there might be an enemy that attacks Link by throwing something at him. The easy solution is to use the shield to block it, but we also had to consider what would happen when the player hit it with the sword. These things pile up on top of each other very quickly and it becomes increasingly complicated to create these responses in the game. Taking the same example I just mentioned, if Link is wearing the Iron Boots when he is hit by that attack, should he just take damage or should he also be knocked down? It's never-ending because everything that occurs has an effect on all the subsequent responses. If you're just thinking about this on your own it's overwhelming, but it's undoubtedly an important part of the depth we have come to expect from Zelda games.

Iwata

I see. Miyagi-san, what do you think is the essence of a Zelda game?

Miyagi

This is a question that I have also struggled with. I even once asked this question to one of the most senior developers in the company who has years of experience with Zelda. You know what I got for an answer? "If the Zelda staff made it, it's Zelda!" (laughs)

Iwata

It's like a Zen riddle! (laughs)

Miyagi

I remember being very perplexed! (laughs) When I re-played all of the Zelda games starting with the first one, I realised that although what was just mentioned about meeting the expectations of the user is certainly a core part of the Zelda experience, so too is cutting out all of the unnecessary elements. Something that is all too common with games nowadays are movie scenes that the user can't interact with. In Zelda, these are removed to the greatest extent possible in order to allow the player to do what they want. In this respect, Zelda games have a very high level of quality. So when I approached the development of this title, rather than thinking about what Zelda is or means, it was more important for me to preserve the quality of the Zelda series. Rather than thinking about what Zelda is, I thought about where the real quality of Zelda games should lie. For example, the story in Ocarina of Time starts when a small fairy called Navi flies from far away to find Link, an innocent young boy. Then, rather than just watching a movie, the player learns what kind of boy Link is by actually becoming him in the game, and the player is actually introduced to the town when Navi is flying around and bouncing from place to place. These were very effective devices in the introduction to that game.

Iwata

There's nothing unnecessary in there, is there?

Miyagi

Nothing at all. There is no waste in terms of time or data. I learned a lot from that and tried very hard to reach that level of quality during development, but there were a lot of questions for which I wasn't able to find answers. For example, I wasn't able to find satisfactory answers to questions such as whether or not it's still necessary to allow the player to cut the grass in Zelda games.

Iwata

So, drawing the line between objects the player can interact with and which elicit responses, and those that don't, is very difficult. If you leave too much out the game world won't be realistic enough, but if you try to put too much in it will turn into an endless task.

Miyagi

That's right. I'm ashamed to admit it, but when I wasn't able to find the right balance I had to seek support from Miyamoto-san. This made me realise how little experience I have! (laugh)

Iwata

I will be sure to ask you about how much Miyamoto-san "upended the tea table"2 with his last-minute suggestions later in the interview! (laughs) Tominaga-san, what are your thoughts about what Zelda means?

Tominaga

Apart from what everyone else has said, but I would say that it's the realism of the game world. In other words, whether or not the player will be able to enjoy the story without feeling that it is unnatural. This is something that Miyamoto-san mentions frequently, but I don't mean the kind of realism where each individual strand of hair is accurately depicted, but rather the fact that a shop owner is not likely to give a hearty welcome to a child that comes into their shop in the middle of the night.

Iwata

Miyamoto-san is pretty strict about that sort of thing, isn't he?

Tominaga

He is! (laughs)

Nishimori

He once pointed out to me that Link shouldn't be standing upright when there is an enemy standing right next to him. And that was when the player wasn't even controlling Link!

Iwata

Even though the player's not doing anything, he said "Link would be in a fighting pose if an enemy were standing next to him!" (laughs)

Nishimori

He did! (laughs) But putting in that one little touch has a really big effect on the game.

Tominaga

That kind of attention to detail is what helps establish the realism of the game world.

Iwata

They might be small details, but by having them pointed out, they set the standard for realism in the game.

Tominaga

That's right. I think that's also an important part of what makes a Zelda game. This is similar to what Kitagawa-san said, but another important factor is how the player feels when they solve a puzzle. The great feeling that comes from hearing the classic Zelda chime is one of the best parts of any Zelda game.

Iwata

That's true, isn’t it? Whenever I solve a difficult puzzle in Zelda, it always makes me think "I might be pretty smart!" (laughs)

Tominaga

It's absolutely essential. Another thing that's important is having fun getting side-tracked from the main story. You happen to go back somewhere you have already been even though you don't have a particular reason to go there, and you find that you can use one of your new items to get to a new area and find a treasure chest. I think that having a game full of experiences like that might be what makes a Zelda game.

Iwata

I see. And what about you, Kyogoku-san?

Kyogoku

I think you can say the same thing Tominaga-san just said about what the characters in the game say. For example, hearing something unexpected when you talk to a character you haven't talked to in a while, or being surprised when a character gets angry at you for something you casually did. If you overdo it, then it will be a nuisance to players, and there's also no point in putting something in that no one will ever notice. That's why I was always trying to think of subtle things that might or might not be noticed by players. These things are silly in a good way, and I tried to put in as many of them as possible.

Iwata

Mention Zelda and people will often say that it's hard-core, a traditional gamer's game, but it's actually completely crammed with these silly things! (laughs)

Kyogoku

That's right! (laughs) But things can get out of hand if you overdo it. On the other hand, if we don't put enough of these things in the game, Miyamoto-san will always notice it and send an e-mail saying something like: "I went to all the trouble of trying this in the game and I was sad because I didn't get a new reaction from any of the characters in the game." I called these his "sob story e-mails".

Iwata

"Sob story e-mails"! (laughs)

Kyogoku

These were e-mails where he would describe what he did and what happened in the game, and why that made him sad. In the later stages of development, there was a sob story e-mail every night!

All

(laughter)

Iwata

Well, I now understand what Zelda means to each of you. As far as my own opinion is concerned, I have a strong feeling that there are as many definitions of Zelda as there are people. But these definitions are not completely different from each other. Rather they all overlap to some extent with one another. That's why I feel confident that it will come together nicely in the end. Taking it one step further, I think the fact that there isn't a perfect definition that can be expressed in words is the reason that Zelda games offer such a rich and rewarding experience.

Ideas Born Out of Functionality
Iwata

We had originally planned to release Twilight Princess at the end of 2005, but as we entered the final period before completion, we decided to postpone the release by a year. This decision had the effect of moving the finish line further away right at the end of the race, so to speak. There was also the added challenge of developing the Wii version, and I think this made things more difficult for everyone. I would like to hear how you felt about the extension of the release date and how the extra time impacted the project. Let's start with Oyama-san.

Oyama

When the extension was finalized, part of me was relieved that we would have more time to create more things in the game, but another part of me realized that this meant having to work on the same project for another year. In the end, the feeling of happiness at being able to create more things in the game was much greater. This was because I realized how big the expectations for this game were from the time the first footage was revealed at E3 in 2004.

Iwata

The whole world is expecting the greatest Zelda ever, isn’t it? I expect there was a tremendous amount of pressure on you to meet those expectations.

Oyama

In terms of the volume of development, there was even more than there was with Ocarina. I felt that rather than hurrying to implement everything by a particular deadline, I would rather have the time to do it right.

Iwata

What about you, Nishimori-san?

Nishimori

I felt glad to have more time to polish the game. Zelda is a type of game, that the only reason you end development is because the deadline is approaching, so completely finishing the game with time to spare before the deadline is nearly impossible. In other words, it's the kind of project where you can always use more time to continue polishing it. With that extra time you don't merely make minor adjustments, you continue to improve it as a game by adding as many new elements as possible. So the more time I have the happier I am. But at the time it was initially decided to postpone the release, I didn't have a clear understanding of how much time I would need to finish my work.

Iwata

With a project this large, it's difficult to know at what pace to work, isn’t it? Naturally at the beginning you didn't know how much work there was to be done. What about you, Kitagawa-san?

Kitagawa

Honestly, I was one of the people who was happy to hear about the delay. At the beginning of the project, the director (Eiji) Aonuma-san told me how many dungeons to make, and it wouldn't have been possible to make that many by the original deadline. But with the delay, it was possible to put together a realistic plan to create that many dungeons. Of course, I mean this in terms of quality as well as quantity. The dungeons in Zelda games are the biggest part of the gameplay, so it wouldn't make sense if only the outside parts of the game were complete. We constantly received feedback from people whom we have asked to test play, about how to have the player use certain items or at what angle to place the camera, and we used that feedback to improve the dungeons. With the extra year, I felt that we were able to polish the dungeons to a level that I am personally satisfied with.

Iwata

What were your impressions, Miyagi-san?

Miyagi

I had always felt that it wouldn't have been possible to finish everything by the original deadline, so I felt that the one year delay was only natural. Since the game wasn't nearly ready in terms of both quality or volume, and we were lacking a clear roadmap for how to proceed, when the decision to postpone release was made I felt that I had to reassess things. Before that, in the period when I felt that it would be impossible to complete everything with the way things were going, I was personally burned out. Readjusting myself, in all sorts of ways, was really quite a struggle. Before the decision to delay the game was taken, I was working on what had to be done every day with the deadline right in front of me. The release date being moved back felt like a chance to begin afresh, and it was of real significance that we could fundamentally reconsider our approach to completing a whole range of issues.

Iwata

When you are short of time, all your energy goes into getting those files done by the end of the day. That's why you can't really look at the bigger picture and make decisions that will be better for the project in the end.

Miyagi

That's right. That's why, to speak frankly, I thought: "If you were going to postpone it by a year, why didn't you tell us that from the start?" (laughs)

Iwata

I understand! (laughs) Tominaga-san, how about you?

Tominaga

In my case, I only joined the team right before the decision to push back the release date was made, which meant I didn't really feel too deeply affected by it. I didn't think much beyond: "that's a pain." In fact, I was more worried about the decisions to develop a Wii version or release it at nearly the same time worldwide. But seeing first-hand how Nintendo comes together and co-operates when they have a tight deadline approaching really made me take a step back and appreciate what a great company this is.

Iwata

Kyogoku-san, how about you?

Kyogoku

When the schedule was extended, sure enough I felt relieved as I would have more time to work on the game. But as I was responsible for the in-game text, localizing the game into all the languages needed for the simultaneous worldwide release was no easy task, even with the release date postponed by a year. With text, you're still making changes right up to the last possible moment. Honestly, even now I wish we could put back the release date another month...

Iwata

That might be a problem! (laughs) But you'll always find places that you could keep refining forever.

Kyogoku

That's true! (laughs)

Iwata

How about the decision to take a game which had been developed for the GameCube and making a Wii version? I'm sure it presented challenges, but tell us also about the positive side of developing the Wii version.

Oyama

To be honest, at first I wondered whether we could really pull it off. After all, it's a completely different piece of hardware. There was resistance to the idea within the team at first, as people thought that the GameCube controller they were used to would work better for the game. That's a very common feeling, isn't it? You might show something to people, and no matter how great it is they'll feel that the thing they are familiar with is better. Particularly during the period when the game was being fine-tuned, it felt like every week they would present us with new controls that felt different from before. I must say, I was a little concerned at that point. The director, Aonuma-san, settled on the current specifications after a process of trial and error at around the time of this year's E3. It was only when I got to try out this version that I realized how fun it was going to be. At this point our final adjustments proceeded at a really rapid pace.

Iwata

And how about you, Nishimori-san?

Nishimori

The fact that the final game is so solidly put together makes me feel a real sense of achievement. Often people who play the Wii version for the first time will express astonishment that the game was originally developed for the GameCube. I am truly happy that so many people feel it is so well made that it feels as if it was designed for Wii from the start. When the decision was made to develop a Wii version, I had serious doubts that a Zelda game could be played with so few buttons. But in the end, thanks to the control offered by the Wii Remote, the range of ways to enjoy the game expanded even further, which was fantastic.

Kitagawa

That's right. When you use the remote for pointing with items such as the bow and arrow and other projectile weapons, you really feel like you have become Link. Now, if I had to choose between one controller or the other, I would choose the Wii Remote every time. Swinging the sword, using the bow, doing Link's spin attack: they all become completely different. It may feel confusing at first, but I honestly feel that you won't know how good this controller really is until you get your hands on it.

Iwata

So you mean you shouldn't say you don't like a dish until you taste it, right?

Kitagawa

That's it! (laughs)

Iwata

How about you, Miyagi-san?

Miyagi

Personally, I'm not very good at games so I had the impression that playing the game with the GameCube controller might be a bit tricky. With the Wii Remote, I felt that the fact that there were less buttons was actually an improvement. At first, when the decision was made to develop a Wii version of Zelda, the overall feeling in the team was concern at having to start from scratch with the gameplay at this late stage. Speaking for myself, I felt strongly that we should get moving on the Wii version right away.

nishimori

Well, this is kind of obvious, but the hard part was making the necessary adjustments to get both versions right. As we had to be absolutely thorough in our fine-tuning of the controls to get them perfect for both the GameCube and Wii versions of Zelda, it doubled our work, to put it simply. So even though we had an extra year to do it, we didn't feel that we could afford to take our time. Quite the opposite: we were working flat out right to the end.

Iwata

I see. So it seems there were both positive and negative sides to it. Now, let's come to Miyamoto-san and his habit of "upending the tea table!" 1.(laughs) In what ways have you witnessed him doing this? If you have ever experienced this, don't hold back!

Oyama

Where I was working, there weren't any particularly serious incidents! (laughs) So I thought: "That's what everyone is talking about? Is that all...?"

Iwata

You expected something more? (laughs)

Oyama

Well, yes! (laughs) To give an example, with the strength of the enemies, he would say: "make them a bit easier" or "this one's too weak!" But even more than these pointers, what I found extremely useful were his reminders that: "Regular players will feel this way..." When you spend all day, every day dealing with nothing but the enemies in the game, you lose perspective and there's a tendency to make things so they will be fun for experts. But Miyamoto-san is always able to look at things from the viewpoint of regular players, which was exactly what I had expected from him.

Iwata

Interesting. How about you, Nishimori-san?

Nishimori

I had also heard a lot of stories about Miyamoto-san, so I worked on the final adjustments to the game while living in constant fear of him "upending the tea table."

Iwata

"Living in constant fear!" (laughs)

Nishimori

I sat near Aonuma-san, and Miyamoto-san would occasionally drop by to discuss various things. I was always anxious to hear what he would say, so I would invariably listen in on their conversation. But just like with Oyama-san, there weren't any "tables upended" regarding Link's design or movements. In fact, I would say that we received very valuable guidance from him throughout the entire process of our work. I'd say his style of advice was more like: "It would work better this way!" One thing I remember was the advice we received on the wolf's design. In this game, Link is transformed into a wolf-like beast. In other words, the character the player controls at times moves around on four legs. When we were discussing the wolf's design, Miyamoto-san said: "It's no fun to just look at the back of a four-legged animal all the time." It's true that with a four-legged animal, if you look sideways on or from an angle, you can clearly see the motion of the legs and the overall way the character moves. But if you look directly from behind, it looks really boring compared to a human character's movements. So Miyamoto-san told us to have someone riding the wolf. At the early stages, we went for a very unassuming character on the wolf's back, but by the end we had made this character occupy a central place in the game.

Iwata

Ah, I see! The really interesting thing about what you've just told us is that Miyamoto-san was "speaking from a functional point of view." It wasn't that he wanted a character riding the wolf for narrative reasons. Rather, the reason was to do with its function in the game, as "viewing an animal directly from behind all the time is boring." It's really interesting to hear that the idea of having someone riding the wolf was because of this. I really feel that this is the thinking of someone who worked in industrial design. Sidetracking just a little, when Miyamoto-san got Mario to ride Yoshi in Super Mario World, the thinking behind that idea was "functional." What I mean is that the SNES was a console which didn't allow a lot of sprites (the technical mechanism that allows graphics to be displayed on the screen) to be lined up on-screen at the same time. To explain why Yoshi ended up looking like a dinosaur, it's because that shape allows you to limit the number of sprites lined up on screen when Mario and Yoshi are overlapping. You'll understand if you take a look at the original blueprint for Yoshi, that Yoshi was designed purely from a functional point of view. So the reason Yoshi ended up being a dinosaur is not because we wanted Mario to ride a dinosaur. Rather, it was because something like a dinosaur was the shape which was allowed by the technical limitations. Sorry, I digressed slightly there! (laughs) Kitagawa-san, did you have any "tables upended?"

Kitagawa

I also honestly didn't experience anything where I could say: "This is it! This is him shaking things up!" Looking back and considering why this didn't happen, I think it is because with the one-year extension to the project, our team's planners kept coming up with so many ideas that there was no room for things to be "shaken up." I mean, once we had made something, we repeatedly examined how well it worked in the game, decided which aspects didn't work, and then revised them. For that reason, when Miyamoto-san played the dungeons later on, he wouldn't say "do this!" or "do that!" In fact, he would say "if you changed this a little it would look better" or "if you do this, the route through the dungeon will become clearer." That is, he didn't flip our ideas on their head, but rather he gave us really constructive advice.

Iwata

Interesting. I am looking forward to seeing whether you'll see things the same way as you go on to develop more games in the future. (laughs) How about you, Miyagi-san?

Miyagi

For field design, which I was responsible for, there were not that many things which he changed. But actually my opinion varies a little from everyone else here, in that I think that Miyamoto-san limited his demands on us to ensure that everything we developed had that fundamental Zelda feel. To give an example, when we showed the game at E3, the feature allowing you to fire arrows at enemies was included in the game, but I had serious doubts about the controls for this. Not to beat around the bush, I thought that it was much simpler to use the GameCube controller. It was then that Miyamoto-san introduced the slingshot, which had not featured up to then, in the early stages of the game, which acts as a tutorial. At the same time, he put in a feature where, when you go to hit something with a projectile, the action stops to give you a second to line up your pointer. That brief pause is a great feature, and renews the player's feeling of excitement and urgency. The second I experienced this, my view of the game changed right away. I have the impression that by Miyamoto-san adding those subtle refinements to the game, elements that had caused me concern were dealt with one by one. Thanks to Miyamoto-san's guidance, the introductory stages that draw new players into the game in particular, became extremely "Zelda-like". So although he didn't shake things up in a dramatic way, I would say that Miyamoto-san made a remarkable difference in changing the finished product into a Zelda game, through making numerous small changes. But rather than feeling awestruck by this, personally I felt strongly that I needed to work a little harder as a game developer! (laughs)

Iwata

Maybe you felt that you had to get things into better shape before Miyamoto-san took a look at your work?

Miyagi

Exactly. My overall impression was that Miyamoto-san was very sensitive to the amount of pressure we were under, and the level of stress that accompanies such a long-term development project. But although it looked like he was going easy on us, my opinion is that he did in fact "shake things up" a great deal.

Iwata

That's a really interesting assessment!

Miyagi

That's why I think that if the project had been extended by another six months, he would have exerted his influence more overtly.

Iwata

He would have worked you hard, like Ittetsu Hoshi!2 (laughs)

Miyagi

He would have! (laughs) To be honest, at the stage before Miyamoto-san checked it, there were a large number of things that we needed to change. But perhaps Miyamoto-san understood that if he had shaken things up too radically at that stage, the amount of things to be done would have gotten completely out of hand. That's why he began with the things which he knew we would be able to do to make the game more "Zelda-like," little by little. Then at the end, once it had become a true Zelda game, he would say: "I'm sorry to do this at such a late stage but..." Then he would go ahead and change all of the things that had been bothering him. I think he deliberately chose to do it this way.

Iwata

I see. And how about you, Tominaga-san?

Tominaga

Just like Miyagi-san, I also got the impression that we were being asked to change things one by one, beginning with those we could comfortably handle. Another way to look at it is that Miyamoto-san was clearly thinking through and methodically dealing with those issues which everyone was concerned about, but didn't know how to handle. For instance, in the version we showed at E3, you were able to play through the first village in the game. But even though that was specifically designed for E3, because it was a self-contained level the task of integrating it into the main Zelda game involved making a lot of adjustments, and we didn't quite know what to do. Miyamoto-san did that for us, which was a great help. So I think rather than upending the tea table, he was actually creating things we didn't have in the game. A change in the game which was particularly memorable was to do with a sub-event which had no connection with the main story. We made that sub-event, intending it to be completely optional, but then quite far into the latter stages of the project, Miyamoto-san proposed that this should be worked into the main body of the story. Because of the stage we were at, that sent shockwaves through the staff! (laughs) But once we'd actually made it, the item that you gain through that event linked really smoothly into the development of the main game, so the feeling was that we'd come up with something really good. So while it wasn't as if things had been totally thrown into disorder, I remember thinking that perhaps that was an example of Miyamoto-san upending the tea table.

Iwata

How about you, Kyogoku-san?

Kyogoku

Personally, I definitely experienced that tea table being upended! (laughs)

All

(laughter)

Kyogoku

The reason we had to change things boils down to the fact that in the first village, there were a lot of things particular to the GameCube version. This meant that there were many aspects of the Wii version that did not take into consideration the fact that players wouldn't be familiar with the game itself or the Wii Remote. Because of this, and I think this again goes back to what Iwata-san just referred to as "ideas born from functionality", there were still a huge number of things that needed to be communicated to the player at the beginning of the game so they would be able to enjoy playing it on Wii. At first, the idea was that the player would spend one day in the village, but out of the blue it was decided to make it three days. We got a sheet of paper with a specification plan written on it, a kind of "Miyamoto-san's Three-Day Plan"...

Iwata

Ah, a "specification plan?" That's always an indication that he wants to make some major changes!

All

(laughter)

Kyogoku

This really was at the latter stages of development… Well, to be precise, it was just after E3…

Iwata

(laughter)

Kyogoku

Localization had already gotten underway. To suddenly go and make a change like this, well I was speechless... The programming had to be changed, the number of items increased and of course the positioning of the characters also changed. It also required some adjustment of the field design. Naturally, all of the lines spoken by the characters were affected so I was frantically getting in touch with Europe and America. I had to tell them: "That village is going to be completely changed, so please wait a couple of weeks! Please don't translate anything yet!"

All

(laughter)

Kyogoku

So we made the changes, and just as I was thinking we were going to make it in time, the table was overturned again when it was decided to tie a sub-event into the game's main narrative, as Tominaga-san just mentioned. So I got in touch with everyone around the world and told them: "It's going to change again!" Personally speaking, I felt that the table was being constantly overturned. When we somehow managed to finish in time for the release date, I thought: so that must be the "legend" of Zelda...

All

(Roaring laughter)

Kitagawa

You were just dying to say that, weren't you?

Iwata

Trust the scriptwriter to get the best lines! (laughs) But seriously, I think that, as you said, Miyamoto-san probably viewed that first part of the game as performing an absolutely crucial function. That's why he had such a definite idea of precisely what needed to be communicated to the player at that point. This is exactly why he gave such clear directions that there was something missing, or that things needed to be introduced to the player in a specific order. As the project draws to its conclusion, and the development team are working like crazy, they will naturally become increasingly less sensitive to what kind of things might confuse a first-time player. For that reason, I think it's actually inevitable that Miyamoto-san will come in at the last moment and upend the tea table. Now that things have calmed down, when you look back at those major changes made to the first village, do you think those changes were a good thing?

Kyogoku

Yes. It's not only easier for the first-time player to become familiar with the Wii Remote, but in terms of the story the player will be drawn straight into the world of Zelda. As a result, I am really glad that we made those changes.

Iwata

Incidentally, I remember being told a long time ago that Miyamoto-san's definition of an idea is apparently: "something that solves multiple problems at the same time with just a single adjustment." What you've just told us seems to fit that definition to a tee. Now, I've got a final question I would like to ask each of you. Can I get each of you to give me one aspect of The Legend Of Zelda: Twilight Princess which you are particularly proud of, and that you want everyone to see? Let's begin with you, Oyama-san.

Oyama

There are just too many to mention! (laughs) Naturally,  as I was in charge of the enemies, I think it's the battles. The fighting techniques, the effects you see when an enemy is hit, falls to the ground and disappears, and what Link does during that time as well. I certainly want players to enjoy savoring those details. Also, several familiar enemies from previous Zelda games make an appearance, and it wasn't simply a case of giving the graphics a polish. We have also given them slightly different methods of attack, so both people playing for the first time and experienced Zelda fans will be able to enjoy a fresh challenge.

Iwata

Nishimori-san?

Nishimori

Firstly, as the Wii version is being advertised so widely, I would like to say to everyone that the GameCube version is also packed with great features, so please give it a go! Of course, it has a completely different feel from the Wii version. Something which I gave a lot of attention, and which I think is one of the game's outstanding features, are the horse-riding scenes. In particular, the parts where you are fighting enemies while on horseback is something I've been dying to do ever since Ocarina of Time. When we let people have a go at a horseback battle scene at E3, there was an incredibly positive response, but within the team there were those who felt that this part of the game needed a little more work. After Miyamoto-san suggested it, I even went horse-riding!

Iwata

You actually went horse-riding?

Nishimori

I really did. Miyamoto-san just said: "Go and ride a horse!" (laughs) I got the designer responsible for the horse and the person responsible for the animations of Link and the horse, and the three of us went to do some field work. As we were beginners, we weren't able to fully master horse-riding, but we got to appreciate that feeling of the size of the horses you get by standing beside them as well as the sensation of riding a large animal, that kind of enjoyable sense of not being fully in control. We experienced a whole range of things, including the way riding a horse affects your line of vision, and I think there were elements of the game that we couldn't have made unless we had actually ridden a horse. So that's what I really want players to notice.

Iwata

How about you, Kitagawa-san?

Kitagawa

Well, as the person in charge of the dungeons, I want players to enjoy the rich variety and the attention to detail that has gone into all the dungeons. To give a more specific recommendation, there are some unexpected old-school elements making a 3D appearance, and I am sure they will bring smiles to the faces of long-time fans. I hope players enjoy the hard work that has gone into them.

Iwata

And you, Miyagi-san?

Miyagi

If I'm asked to give a recommendation or an aspect that I am particularly proud of, I think I have to speak on behalf of all of the staff who worked on the field design, so it's very difficult to narrow it down. Firstly, of course, is the fun of galloping on your horse across the vast plains of Hyrule. I think the sense of speed is something the players will really enjoy. Another thing I secretly like is that once you have progressed to a certain point in the game, there is a place that has been designed so that the player can look out from Hyrule Plains and see exactly where the mountains, lakes, deserts and rivers you have journeyed through are located. Of course, it isn't perfect, but it has been made with the greatest effort to make it all consistent. You can enjoy that view in-between your adventures!

Iwata

Tominaga-san, please.

Tominaga

As I feel like I want to recommend everything, I would urge players to get side-tracked and explore every corner of this world. To give an aspect of the game I paid particular attention to, I would make a slightly unusual choice. I really put a lot of effort into naturally leading the player in a particular direction when we didn't want them straying too far from the main plot of the story. The fact that you can move around freely is one of Zelda's great points, but there are situations where you definitely don't want the player to wander into a particular place. So you have to make sure you guide the player along the flow of the game without them noticing they are being guided. This is extremely difficult, and as I worked hard on it, I'd like to say that everyone should pay attention to it... But this is something that players aren't supposed to become aware of so we can't have them thinking: "Wow, someone has really put a lot of effort into making this seem so natural!" So in the end I can't really recommend that players pay attention to that! (laughs)

Iwata

And finally, Kyogoku-san.

Kyogoku

The worlds in the GameCube and Wii versions are mirror images of each other, with the left and right completely reversed. Just by using a different controller and experiencing a completely reversed world you really get a completely different type of enjoyment. All of us have become familiar with seeing this world on a daily basis, but I still get lost when I have a go with left and right reversed. I really want people to experience both. And personally, the parts which I put particular effort into were all the really insignificant details! (laughs) If you're progressing in the game, and you discover something where you laugh and think "This is just ridiculous...!", I'm certain that will be a part that I really gave a lot of attention to and want people to see!

All

(laughter)

Iwata

Thank you for joining me for such an extended discussion! I hope everyone will view this as the greatest game in the Zelda series. Thank you all.

All

Thank you very much!

Like Trying to Mold Clay
Iwata

In the previous interview, I spoke with some of the younger developers that worked on the latest Zelda. This time, I have been joined by more experienced developers who over the years have become accustomed to working on Zelda titles. I'd like to ask each of you to introduce yourself. Let's start with you, Kawagoe-san.

Kawagoe

I would like to start talking about "The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess" today. Since many developers are involved with this project, I would like to have as many of them participate in this discussion as possible. First, I will talk with six young staff members who experienced being team leaders for the first time on this project. Just so you know, I am planning to talk with more experienced developers later on, and towards the end I will talk with the director (Eiji) Aonuma-san and (Shigeru) Miyamoto-san. So, let's start by having our young developers introduce themselves.

Iwata

OK, next is Asakawa-san.

Asakawa

I'm Asakawa. On this project, I was in charge of bringing together various elements related to the non-player characters (NPCs) in the game. In previous projects, I was responsible for the NPCs in Ocarina of Time, Pokémon Stadium 2, Majora's Mask and Super Mario Sunshine. I worked on the enemies and cut-scenes in Pikmin and Pikmin 2, and was in charge of the boss character animations in Wind Waker.

Miyagi

I see. Takano-san?

Takano

My name is Takano. I was basically in charge of the story scripting for Twilight Princess, but I was also involved in the development of the cut-scenes and a few of the events in the game. After 1080° Snowboarding was finished, I worked in a supporting role in the development of Ocarina of Time. I've been working on nothing but Zelda ever since! (laughs)

Iwata

You're practically living in a Zelda game, aren't you? (laughs)

Takano

Sometimes I think I might be! (laughs)

Iwata

OK, next up is Takizawa-san.

Takizawa

My name is Takizawa. I was the artwork director for Twilight Princess. I was basically in charge of organizing the work of all the artists, which entailed a large range of responsibilities. For example, I was responsible for determining the overall direction of the artistic style as well as the technology that we used. I also had to make sure the artists had everything they needed to do their work. Before this project, I got my start with Super Mario 64, which was followed by Star Fox 64. After that, I was involved with Ocarina of Time. Since then, just like Takano-san, I have been living, eating, and breathing Zelda projects! (laughs) Let's see, I was also the artwork manager for Wind Waker.

Iwata

What was different about your role this time as artwork director compared to your role as artwork manager on Wind Waker?

Takizawa

On Wind Waker, when we decided to go ahead with that graphical style, the decisions about the overarching effects were made in consultation with other staff members. With Twilight Princess, in addition to directly working on those kinds of design-related issues, I feel that I had more things to do that were required to keep the project moving forward. For example, I had to make sure that the artists in every section had all the tools they needed as well as responding to requests to hire more staff with in-demand skills.

Iwata

Do you think the fact that this kind of work was required means that more people were involved with artwork on this project than anything else we have ever done?

Takizawa

Definitely, without a doubt

Iwata

I see. Next is Miyanaga-san.

Miyanaga

My name is Miyanaga. I was the sub-director for Twilight Princess. I was mainly in charge of devising game content and positioning various characters in the field portion of the game. After working on Ocarina of Time, Twilight Princess is actually just my second time working on a Zelda project. I was the field designer for Ocarina of Time, and I was basically in charge of designing Hyrule Field in that game.

Iwata

Last but not least, we have Ikematsu-san.

Ikematsu

I'm Ikematsu. My title for this project was planning sub-director and I was primarily responsible for the dungeons, in particular the dungeon layouts and the positioning of enemies. My first experience with the Zelda series was as the dungeon designer for Ocarina of Time. After that, I worked on Majora's Mask and was in charge of the planning for Wind Waker before working on this project.

Iwata

I would like to start off by asking you what you felt was different about the development of Twilight Princess compared to previous games in the Zelda series. I thought it best to ask all of you since you have so many years of experience on Zelda projects. Takano-san, what would you say was different this time around?

Takano

Well, I would say that because there was such a huge number of people working on this project, there were also a lot of differences in each individual's perception of Zelda. On top of that, everyone was very stubborn about their opinions, too! (laughs) So of course there weren't many cases in which everyone agreed on how to proceed. It was much more common to have people voicing their disagreement and offering constructive criticism. As a result, the developers probably debated this Zelda with more fervor than any other Zelda game to date, and I think that passion is evident in the game. I'm sure that the director, Aonuma-san, had to expend a good deal of effort to bring everything together. But in the end I believe he succeeded in doing just that, and the result is the biggest Zelda to date.

Iwata

So because of the large size of this project, it was more difficult to make sure everyone was on the same page than it was with any other Zelda?

Takano

Yes, that's right.

Iwata

I see. What about you, Takizawa-san?

Takizawa

Speaking from the point of view of an artist, the sheer volume of work meant that we needed the assistance of both the company's internal artists as well as that of several temporary workers. With the increased staff size, it became even more important to properly care for everyone, effectively communicate the project's direction and manage the progress of the project. Also, the creation of some things that used to be hammered out by senior and junior artists working together closely had to be delegated to people who were not necessarily familiar with our internal processes. And not only for the artists, but for all the team leaders on this project, there was a lot of delegation and project management that couldn't be avoided because of the large scale of the project. Since no one really had a lot of experience in those areas, I think each of the team leaders had to use a process of trial and error to learn how to organize their work.

Iwata

With a project of this magnitude, I think that many of the people with experience on previous Zelda games were asked to fill a wide variety of new roles. But I imagine that it was surely difficult to fully grasp the big picture due to the enormous number of in-game names, characters and events, and that probably made giving accurate instructions difficult. That means without people who have a good grasp of the entire game constantly running about trying to keep everyone on the same page, the project would run aground. Without such people, I can imagine misunderstandings piling up on top of each other and there being countless contradictions in the game. What was it really like?

Takizawa

We definitely encountered those kinds of problems. In fact, it would be fair to say that we were constantly dealing with them! (laughs)

Asakawa

It was a very big issue during development.

Iwata

Takano-san, you worked on bringing together the outline of the story to a certain extent, so I think you were probably conscientious about understanding the bigger picture from an early stage. Wasn't that a lot of work for you this time around?

Takano

Well, the plots of Zelda games have always been broadly outlined by the director at the beginning. Then each time a new and interesting gameplay element is devised, something is later added to the story to accommodate it.

Iwata

Oh, so the emphasis isn't put on the story from the beginning?

Takano

Not at all. It's never been done like that.

Iwata

So in a nutshell, the storyline of Zelda is created to bring out the best of the fun and interesting gameplay elements in such a way that the consistency of the story is maintained. I guess your biggest task is the balancing act required to make sure this is done successfully.

Takano

Yes, and that's why I was able to do my job effectively by going around to each section and absorbing information from them. Put another way, this project came together in the end because of how well each of the section leaders incorporated interesting things into the game.

Iwata

So everyone was able to agree on a vision for the project once there was a concrete image to refer to?

Takano

That's right.

Iwata

So Takizawa-san, when you made those screens, did you feel that there was a need to bring everyone's vision of the game together?

Takizawa

Yes, I thought it would be better to show everyone something like that because the overall plan for the game wasn't quite coming together at the start. In game development, in principle I feel that the artists shouldn't just get together and make decisions on their own. I feel that artists should listen carefully to what the director, planners, and programmers say about what kind of game they want to make, and then offer suggestions.

Iwata

So the way you see it, the role of artists is not to create a certain artistic style because that's what they want to make, but rather to pursue the best possible visual representation in response to the kind of game that the developers want to create, right?

Takizawa

Exactly.

Iwata

That way of thinking is very characteristic of how things are usually done at Nintendo.

Takizawa

Well, of course I think it's acceptable for artists to make their own suggestions, but in order to make a good game it's very important to seek the most appropriate visual style for the game. That's why for a time I decided to take charge and create those images to give the project some momentum when I noticed that it had started to stall. But once the ball got rolling again, the leaders of each section resumed their central role of creating artwork that suited the content of the game.

Iwata

I see. I think the best example of something that is difficult to make without finalized plans are the movies that Kawagoe-san was in charge of. Even if you try to make them early on, it might all be for nothing if the underlying premise is pulled out from underneath you. Kawagoe-san, you've created the movies not just for Zelda games, but for several other projects as well. Was there anything unique about this project?

Kawagoe

Well, there were definitely a lot of undetermined factors in this project, but by now I've gotten used to that! (laughs) We overcame these difficulties by looking ahead and trying to make the storyboards in such a way that they could apply to various situations. We still had to make a lot of changes in the end, but we tried to foresee as many of the changes as possible.

Iwata

There was quite a buzz when the first Twilight Princess movie was shown at E3 in 2004 without prior announcement. Did your team make that movie?

Kawagoe

Um, actually no. I wasn't fully involved with the project at that time.

Takizawa

The team in America was in charge of that movie. The amazing thing is that it looks like a cut-scene movie, but in reality it was compiled entirely with camera work of actual play on the ROM. There's someone in the American localization team who is a genius when it comes to that kind of camera work. You wouldn't think it possible, but he was able to create that incredibly polished movie with normal gameplay.

Takano

He's a very enthusiastic Zelda fan. I think his passion for Zelda is what made that movie possible.

Iwata

Oh, I didn't know that. When that movie was shown at E3, there was an incredibly enthusiastic reaction to it, wasn't there? Did you see it?

Takano

I most certainly did! (laughs)

Iwata

There were even people in the crowd who were crying! (laughs) I expected the excited cheering, but I honestly didn't think anyone would be moved to tears. What were your impressions when you saw that reaction?

Takizawa

I was very pleased. Not only did I feel that way when the movie was shown, I found that it also motivated me during the development that followed. Since this was such a big project, there were times when everyone started to feel mentally drained. At those times, and even now I must admit, just thinking of that movie and the positive reaction to it is enough to keep me going! (laughs) And that's true not just for me, but for a lot of the other staff members as well. It was a great motivator.

Iwata

I see, I see.

Takano

The fact that it wasn't a movie, but footage of actual gameplay was also very motivating. We all felt that once we'd completed this project and gotten it out to everyone who was waiting for it, it would really blow them away!

Takizawa

For the artists, it was encouraging because it confirmed that we didn't choose the wrong direction in terms of the game's look. We had proof that everyone out there was impressed by the game's visual style

Asakawa

It really felt like the reaction to that movie would cement the overall direction of the game. So of course, before E3 we were all quite nervous about whether or not everyone would like it.

Iwata

The incredibly positive and enthusiastic response to that footage really reinforced the fact that we were going in the right direction. Development moved along much more smoothly after that.

Takizawa

It really did. I think that's especially true of the artwork department.

Iwata

I think that people looking in from the outside think that Nintendo's Zelda team is incredibly experienced, capable of maintaining its motivation and carrying large projects through to the finish without any external input. But as it turns out, everyone on the Zelda development team is only human after all! (laughs) You're all nervous the first time you show your work to other people and you're happy when they like what you've done.

Takizawa

I was particularly nervous about Link's design. The reason for that is, although we were continuing with the aesthetic style of Ocarina of Time, the more realistic you make characters, the more they tend to start looking a bit like plastic dolls.

Iwata

Although the visual design of Twilight Princess is indeed realistic, I think it has a unique atmosphere that conventional photo realism cannot offer. There were a lot of people, mostly from overseas, who said they really wanted to play a realistic-looking Zelda. I don't think it was easy for you to come up with a visual design that met those expectations. Could you tell me about what you struggled with in that area?

Takizawa

Well, among the artists it was clear from the start that we would not pursue photo realism in this game. We didn't see any reason to engage the competition in a struggle over who could make the most photo-realistic game, or any significance in attempting to recreate the real world for that matter. Rather, we felt that it would be more meaningful to create something we wanted to make, and then show the world what kind of game can be made when you have that kind of passion. So we decided to place our emphasis on creating the palpable atmosphere that everyone liked so much about Ocarina of Time.

Iwata

But that's much easier said than done, isn't it? Surely everyone has their own individual artistic style and there were a huge number of people working on the graphics of this game. I think that it would be no small task to come up with a consistent atmosphere if everyone just drew whatever they felt like. How did you work around this issue?

Takizawa

This is actually something that always surprises me, but there's no special effort or fantastic trick to accomplishing this. It was the same when we were working on Ocarina of Time and Wind Waker. For example, the graphical style in Wind Waker was very unique, almost to a fault, but we never actually established a standard for everyone to follow. At the beginning we had Link's design, enemy designs based on that and the overall design of the first island. Just based on these sample designs, everyone was able to faithfully recreate the same style in the rest of the world. I always worry about it when we are in the middle of the process, but in the later stages of development the graphical style and movements always come together very quickly. Even this time around with Twilight Princess, we firmly established the basic lines we would work from right at the beginning of development and almost never worked on them again after that.

Iwata

In other words, the early sample stages and the movie that was such a hit at E3 worked like "moving specification sheets," and everyone based their own work on those.

Takizawa

That's right. That's why our basic stance has always been to ask artists to come up with what they want.

Iwata

So, Asakawa-san, how did you find it once the project actually got underway?

Asakawa

Well, I think that everyone basically shared the same idea about the direction to go in. But that's not to say there were any strict rules to follow, because that would lead to a lack of originality and make the creative process uninteresting, which would be the worst possible outcome. So the basic approach was to let people create what they wanted and then slightly modify the completed designs to ensure a Zelda-like consistency throughout the game. That approach was enough to get the job done effectively. Particularly in the later stages of development, everyone really got into the swing of things.

Iwata

So that's how you do it! I had never imagined that it would be possible to create such an enormous game world without some poor person working around the clock to oversee everything and tie it all together. I don't want it to sound like I'm bragging about my own company, but listening to all of you talk reminds me how incredible the Entertainment Analysis and Development Division really is.

Miyanaga

Although the artists had a lot of freedom, Takizawa-san regularly checked everything to make sure everyone was moving in the same direction.

Iwata

So adjustments were made along the way before things got out of hand.

Miyanaga

Yes. At key points of development, Takizawa-san and the other section leaders would make sure things were ticking along nicely.

Iwata

I'd like to ask about aspects not related to artwork for a moment. Both Miyanaga-san and Ikematsu-san joined this project after it was already underway. What were your impressions when you first joined the team?

Ikematsu

At the start, I was shown the E3 demo and I was really impressed. I was excited to see that they were already that far along, but as it turns out... well, they actually weren't all that far along yet!

All

(laughter)

Iwata

What about you, Miyanaga-san?

Miyanaga

Well, I volunteered to join this team, and just like Ikematsu-san, I was astonished to find out that the overall structure of the game hadn't even been finalized yet! (laughs) All of the individual materials were there, but the foundation hadn't been laid yet. So we started by making that foundation.

Ikematsu

In the team, we used to talk about starting by "making the box." What this means is that without a "box," that is a space to play, there was no way of verifying anything in the game, and no way to know how people would enjoy it. That's why we decided to begin our work by creating that box.

Miyanaga

I think the most ideal approach is to make everything in an orderly manner after all the specifications are finalized, but Zelda has never been developed by creating things to meet specifications.

Iwata

If you start out by finalizing the specifications before creating anything, it probably wouldn't end up being Zelda.

Miyanaga

I think that's right. That's why we absolutely had to start by making that box, or foundation, and then make fine-tuned adjustments in a way that resembled the moulding of clay.

Ikematsu

Once the box is done, everyone can start putting things in it and it starts to become clear which ideas work well. Everyone shares their opinions and we gradually brush it up so that the good things stand out even more.

Iwata

The ball gets rolling once you can talk specifically about what you like, doesn't it?

Ikematsu

It does. It provides constant stimulus that allows you to gradually improve the game.

Iwata

With several teams providing this positive stimulus for each other, there is a kind of chain reaction that continually increases the quality of the game. When one team comes up with something good, it inspires other teams to come up with even better ideas.

Miyanaga

With several teams providing this positive stimulus for each other, there is a kind of chain reaction that continually increases the quality of the game. When one team comes up with something good, it inspires other teams to come up with even better ideas.

Ikematsu

There are some things which you can't clearly comprehend when they're just on paper, so you can't really discuss them until they've actually been made. Otherwise it's too hard to see the problems and find the right solutions.

Iwata

All the tweaking and fine-tuning that goes on after the game has taken shape really does provide the momentum that turns it into a finished product that feels like a Zelda game, doesn't it?

Ikematsu

I think so. That's when everything starts to get interesting

Iwata

I think what you are all doing would never be possible by simply following the instructions in some thick specification plan.

Always Striving to Stay True to the Spirit of Zelda
Iwata

We had originally planned to release Twilight Princess at the end of 2005, but as we entered the final period before completion, we decided to postpone the release by a year. This decision had the effect of moving the finish line further away right at the end of the race, so to speak. There was also the added challenge of developing the Wii version, and I think this made things more difficult for everyone. I would like to hear how you felt about the extension of the release date and how the extra time impacted the project. Let's start with Oyama-san.

Kawagoe

Well, as I was in charge of the cinematic sequences, during development I didn’t know much about how the dungeons and other parts of the game I wasn’t involved in were coming along. Due to this, as the project entered its final stages, I play-tested the game with much the same feeling of excitement as a first-time user would have! (laughs) Just the other day, there was a dungeon where, whatever I tried, I couldn't work out how to get out of it. I was playing with this really serious look on my face, but the second I worked out how to do it, I couldn’t help grinning proudly. I was actually a bit worried that the people around me would notice, but to me Zelda is all about that instant when you grin with satisfaction.

Iwata

It’s wanting to experience those feelings of satisfaction that gets you playing in the first place.

Kawagoe

Precisely. I have a strong feeling that Zelda is the game that pays the most attention to those moments.

Iwata

You have to come up with a world with that much depth and variety to get the players to enjoy those moments where they think: "I did it!"

Kawagoe

That’s right. Speaking from the point of view of the cinematic scene director, one important part of my job is to prepare players for what's ahead by conveying various pieces of information to them. I believe movie sequences are important as they act to reinforce the importance of a particular event and act to focus the player's mind.

Iwata

Was there anything different about the movie production for Zelda, compared to those for games you have worked on before?

Kawagoe

One thing which is very important in Zelda games is minimizing the amount of time where the player is simply left watching the screen, unable to press the buttons to influence the action. That is something we have consistently paid a lot of attention to ever since Ocarina.

Iwata

From the perspective of someone making movie sequences, that must be a pretty tall order!

Kawagoe

It certainly is! (laughs) But even in those scenes with long sequences of subtitles which move the story along, we tried to avoid making the player just watch, without being able to control anything. At the very least, we always ensured that the movie sequence wouldn’t carry on until the player had pressed the button to move on to the next message. The idea was that the player should feel they are controlling the game as much as possible. This means that we had to work out what would happen in the movie sequence if the player doesn't press the button, which is no easy task.

Iwata

It must be tough thinking of ways to delay the action when the messages aren't being advanced.

Kawagoe

But there are ways of doing it. As the series has progressed, we have built up more methods of doing that, more know-how. We want to continue to pay attention to this in the future.

Iwata

Even just looking at that one aspect of the movie sequences which you paid particular attention to, I feel it connects to the essence of Zelda. Asakawa-san, what do you think makes a Zelda game?

Asakawa

I think it's the feeling that you are actually taking part in the action, that the things in the game are really happening to you. It’s a game where, once you become absorbed in the adventure, you don’t feel like you’re merely controlling the character, but that it’s really you pushing those blocks around. You really feel like you have solved those puzzles in the dungeons. That strange feeling that it’s actually you in the game isn’t confined to puzzle-solving or battles; you get it when you meet and speak to characters in the game, or visit new places. Well, you could sum it up with the word "fantasy", but that sense of experiencing a world that doesn’t exist is different from the feeling you get watching a film. It all comes down to that feel which is totally unique to Zelda games. This is something which may not be that central to the game, but you also bump into all sorts of oddball characters, the kind that leave you thinking: "No game would normally have someone like that in it!" I think that might also be something you could call "Zelda-esque".

Iwata

Just look at Tingle. His personality is so out of the ordinary that he has even made a solo debut in his own game. For a character like that to be in a serious game like Zelda… Well, it’s not something you would find in other games…

Asakawa

When we're making Zelda games, we always end up putting a lot of effort into characters like that! (laughs) But because of that, events involving those characters end up leaving more of an impression on the player. There’s a really strong desire among us to make events and characters which get the player thinking: “Well, that was a bit weird, but it was funny! I won’t forget that!” It’s one thing to make something that gets the player saying: “What on earth was that?!” It’s another to have something happen during an event that really hooks the player’s attention and draws them in. To me, that’s “Zelda-esque”. I like those things that are slightly off the beaten track.

Iwata

Zelda is a serious game, but a lot of thought seems to have gone into those parts that lie “off the beaten track“.

Asakawa

Right. Those parts also make Zelda what it is.

Iwata

I see. What do you think, Takano-san?

Takano

Yes, it’s something that’s by turns fun then really painful, but ultimately enjoyable. When I play Zelda, that’s how I feel. There are moments which are really painful, but in the end it’s great fun. It’s much the same as making it! There are countless setbacks and challenges that need to be overcome, but when you play the finished version, you really feel a sense of elation. Also, when speaking about the essence of Zelda, I think it's very important that it's not only something the developers are aware of. We also want to get the players to develop a real sense of attachment to Zelda. Because you can say that there are as many Zeldas as there are people playing it, on the development side we often have discussions of whether something is “Zelda-esque” and what exactly that means. We are always seriously grappling with the question of what makes a Zelda game what it is.

Iwata

The essence of a Zelda game may not be easily definable in words but it seems there is a certain common understanding of what it is.

Takano

I think that's absolutely right. (laughs) During development, you would hear the phrase “that's just not Zelda-esque" all the time. On occasions, someone would lose their temper and say something like: “Well, then just what is Zelda-esque anyway?” (laughs) As you'd expect, no one could give an answer to that! But whenever someone came up with a good idea, you'd hear things like: "That's it! That's Zelda!" So even though it wasn't clearly defined, we all naturally developed a shared understanding of what makes something "Zelda-esque." It carries on in this way until we have the finished product; it really is quite a mysterious game in that sense.

Iwata

I see. I think that the only thing you can say for sure is that Zelda is not the sort of game where one person came up with everything on their own. Ideas were born after a large number of people labored over it, and the various elements which were deemed to be “Zelda-esque” acted as a spur to the development of further ideas. I think the game gradually coalesces into something “Zelda-esque” through that process, growing out of the ideas of the people working on it. What do you think, Takizawa-san?

Takizawa

Because of the nature of the work I do, I would say that it is a lot like a miniature Japanese garden. If that garden is designed well enough, then anything that fits into it will by definition be "Zelda-esque”. Taking the garden as the game world, the player's experience will build as they have more and more adventures, and the size of the area they can explore will grow at the same time. If we as developers can stay true to that goal, I think that will mean that anything that you put in that world will be “Zelda-esque”. It is therefore absolutely vital that this “garden” is solidly designed for anything else to be possible.

Iwata

I guess that if you take an overview from the design side of things, you will arrive at that kind of broad conclusion. As far as the design of the game was concerned, was there anything else you paid particular attention to?

Takizawa

For Link's design, we took a lot of care not to make him look too cool. We thought he should retain a kind of unsophisticated air, a certain lack of style. The reasoning behind that was that in Zelda games, Link has all sorts of expressions and actions which are a long way from the so-called dashing hero. His face when he catches a little fish or his expression when he is really surprised... The fact that the player can move freely throughout the “garden” which is the world of Zelda, is one of the game's major strong points. Because of this, there needs to be a rich variety of facial expressions and actions to go with the range of controls available to the player, otherwise the game won't ring true. For this reason, Link sometimes performs actions which would be considered strange if he were a “real person”. These actions are something that a dashing, stylish character really couldn't pull off. So we have designed Link to look cool, but we have done a lot of fine tuning to ensure our aim that he is just cool enough, and no more. For instance, compared to illustrations of Link, the actual character in the game has slightly shorter legs. The legs are only just long enough to give the player that sense of the feel of the ground under their feet when they control Link.

Iwata

Ah, I see! That's very interesting.

Takizawa

Another really fun “Zelda-esque” detail is the fact that as Link is placed at the heart of the game, all of the enemies and non-player characters in the game, as well as all of the action and events, even the very world around him, all communicate this subtle sense of unsophistication. To achieve that didn't entail me giving any major directions for that sort of design. When I was checking the design work, I always had a sense of what I wanted in my mind, but I didn't force that vision on other people. But in spite of this, the various people working on the game's design all made subtle adjustments to achieve that look that borders on being uncool, ensuring that the atmosphere of the game stayed consistent with the central character. After the experience this time round of developing Zelda, I have come to think that this awareness of the game-world as a whole is what makes the game “Zelda-esque”.

Iwata

So what you're saying is that it's not just limited to design? So perhaps, even though you don't know precisely what makes the game Zelda-like, the very fact that everyone is always conscious of this is what contributes the most to making the game “Zelda-esque”? Miyanaga-san, what do you think?

Miyanaga

As you said, I think the fact that the views of everyone working on the project align to a large extent is what really makes the game “Zelda-esque.” Actually, just the other day, I played the game from the start right through to the end. Coming to the end of the game, what I felt keenly was that the game is very human. I don't know if human is really the right word here, but what I'm trying to express is that the game is not in the least bit dry. For instance, you might solve a puzzle but you don't simply feel: Ah, so that item and that item used together move that stone slab... Everything in the game is more human than that. I don't think that's a feeling you can get playing other games.

Iwata

What do you think is it that makes Zelda feel so "human"?

Iwata

Hmm, I wonder. Just to pluck an example out of the air, think of when you blow up a rock with a bomb. It doesn't feel digital… Er, I'm not really expressing myself very well, but I feel that all of the developers who worked on their own individual part of the game really put their heart and soul into everything they did. Although everything has been tied together into one game so you can't see the join between the different sections, the care that has gone into each one is clear and this really adds a great deal to the game.

Iwata

Whether you are a developer or player, perhaps every individual can find themselves reflected in this game.

Miyanaga

You may be right.

Iwata

How about you, Ikematsu-san? What is it that makes a game into a Zelda game?

Ikematsu

I really don't think I'm going to be able to express it very well, so I think I'll pick out a very specific example. There's a scene in the game where Link breaks into a fortress full of enemies. When I was play-testing that part of the game, I crept into the fortress and the enemies were getting ready to eat a wild boar that they were roasting over an open fire. Just as I was about to shoot at the enemies with the bow I had, I suddenly wondered what would happen if I shot the boar. So I gave it a try, and a heart2 came out of it!

Iwata

That's certainly a very "Zelda" touch! (laughs)

Ikematsu

It is, isn't it? (laughs) When you play the game, you often wonder whether something would happen if you do this or that, and try out various things. And Zelda actually accommodates this!

Iwata

Right!

Ikematsu

Of course, the game hasn't been designed to respond to everything you might attempt to do. But there are those points where you think "I bet there's something here!" and some really nice surprise has been worked into the game. The developers always think of things from the player's viewpoint, and I think they are putting those details in the game with a real insight into what the player might do in a given situation.

Iwata

I know exactly what you mean! Perhaps that links in to what Miyanaga-san just said about the "human" feel of Zelda. Thank you all very much for sharing your views on that issue. I'd like to move on to the next question now. With regards to the game's design, this may well be the most "Zelda-esque" topic of all! (laughs) I would like to ask about Miyamoto-san and his habit of "upending the tea table."3

All

(laughter)

Iwata

Now, I wonder who the best person to start with is?

Ikematsu

It may well be Takano-san.

All

(laughter)

Iwata

In that case, let's begin with you, Takano-san!

Takano

Ok, I'll go first! (laughs) As usual with a Zelda project, the last few months entailed a feverish effort to polish the game, and we got it into really good shape. But at the same time, the contents of the game were being changed to a degree that at times was downright frightening. The story, minor features, everything. And needless to say, it was Miyamoto-san's appearance on the scene which caused all this!

Iwata

I can imagine! (laughs)

Takano

With Twilight Princess, the parts of the game that changed most dramatically were the early stages. Miyamoto-san has always put a lot of emphasis on the importance of the first section of games. Since we were all well aware of this, when we were making the early parts of the game along with Miyanaga-san and his team, we had this funny feeling that whatever we made, it would end up changing anyway! (laughs)

Miyanaga

I had the same feeling!

All

(laughter)

Takano

In the case of this game, we of course had to give the player everything they have come to expect from a Zelda game, but on top of that we also had to let them get accustomed to using the Wii Remote. In any case, all of these features were crammed into the start of the game because Miyamoto-san wanted to let the player experience everything they would need early on. Let's just say he wasn't in any mood for compromise.

Iwata

So what you're saying is that the tea table was upended in spectacular style?

Takano

Well, as things turned out, I guess you could say that… Miyamoto-san's "upending" is not simply a matter of him suddenly flipping over the table. On second thought, he does do that as well! (laughs) But usually the way he does things, and the start of the Zelda game this time is a particular case in point, is not to completely overturn the whole table. Rather, he takes it in turn to flip all of the dishes and bowls on the table one by one. (Takano gestures as if turning over plates one after the other)

All

(Roaring laughter)

Takano

(While continuing to gesture as if turning over plates) He'll start like this, flipping a cup at the edge of the table, then work his way round before starting on the plates, then the bowls. Then, if he thinks it's necessary, he'll upend the actual table itself. That's why, when you look at the way everything ends up, it looks as if he has just flipped the entire table. But that isn't the case.

Iwata

So, he doesn't do things the same way as Ittetsu Hoshi?4 (laughs)

Takano

It's not the same. He isn't kicking over the table and saying: "Start again!" (Takano repeats the gesture of turning over plates) No, he's doing this, turning over the plates and bowls saying, change this, and this, and this…

Iwata

And then before you know it, everything's been changed! (laughs)

Takano

Exactly! If you just came in at the end, you'd think he's upended the table in spectacular fashion. But actually, he has put a lot of thought and care into his upending! He really is giving his attention to every detail, from the animation to the fine points of the script. He'll keep going until he decides that there are no more changes to be made and puts the brakes on. Then two hours after he's told that it's all finished, you'll receive an email saying: "I think we should change that line of the script!" And that's in the middle of the night...

Iwata

So he decides to end it, then decides that after all he'll start it again! (laughs)

Takano

It really is incredible to witness. Everyone will be telling him that there is simply no more time left to make changes, and eventually Miyamoto-san will come round to what they're saying and say: "Okay, that's it! All done!" Then you can guarantee that in the middle of the night these e-mails will start appearing, sent to the game designers saying something along the lines of: "I want you to change this. If it's not possible, I'll understand, but..." He's asking if it's possible or not, but he's already been told that it's not possible! In any case, we'll receive any number of e-mails like that, so we'll decide that we have to do it. As this goes on, the staff develop the attitude of waiters and waitresses in a restaurant: "Yes, sir! Right away, sir!"

All

(Roaring laughter)

Takano

But there's no doubt in my mind that because of it, we end up with something that can be called a Zelda game.

Asakawa

But we always get really nervous, especially wondering what he'll spring on us in the last week! (laughs)

Takano

Whenever Miyamoto-san comes walking down the aisle, everyone pays attention to where he will turn off, because whatever team is there is about is have something changed! (laughs) The more experienced staff members are aware of this, so when they see him coming in the distance, they always grin and say: "I wonder where he's headed this time?" You see this all the time, and every time you do you think: "We're really making a Zelda game!" (laughs)

Iwata

It's also an important part of what defines Zelda! (laughs)

Takizawa

You see it all the time, don't you? (laughs)

Takano

All the time! (laughs)

Miyanaga

This time around we got a lot of instructions from him by email. After you've been away from your seat for an hour or so and you notice that Miyamoto-san sent you an email while you were away, you're never sure if you really want to open it or not! (laughs)

Takano

You get mails so late at night you wonder if he ever actually goes home!

Miyanaga

That's right! (laughs)

Takano

When the new employees are first exposed to this, it always comes as a shock to them. They come to us and timidly say: "He said that there wouldn't be any more changes, right?" But we haven't got an answer for them, either! (laughs) So we just say something like: "Well, it's difficult to know..."

Iwata

But with this project, I think that Miyanaga-san was very careful with organizing things at the beginning of the project to make sure nothing would be upended by Miyamoto-san. Did he still find something to upend?

Miyanaga

Well, let's just say that he's very good at finding the places you haven't given enough attention.

All

(laughter)

Takano

He always points out things that have obviously been overlooked.

Miyanaga

Always. You try to predict what he'll notice and take the precaution of implementing something that will pass his inspection, but even then he will spot something that you hadn't considered at all. Regarding the sound or the animation, for example, if something doesn't seem quite right to him, he'll say: "What's this? You haven't finished have you?"

Asakawa

He never misses those really small details.

Takano

And it's the small things that make a difference in the end. By just adding that one sound, the entire effect changes. Those are the kinds of results that you can only get from Miyamoto-san.

Iwata

Did he have much to say about the dungeons?

Ikematsu

Yes, quite a bit. He's very aware of what will be difficult for the player to understand or do in the game. He will always point out something along the lines of: "Do you think the player will understand this?" Often, the issues he pointed out were things I was already aware of, but I had to stop working on them because the deadline was approaching. But when Miyamoto-san points something out, it's actually a great help as I can then use that to ask the staff to change it.

All

(laughter)

Iwata

So you team leaders are both victims and accomplices at the same time! (laughs)

Ikematsu

That's right. Honestly, there are times I want him to come and point something out because then I don't have to say it myself! (laughs)

Iwata

Takizawa-san, how about the design side of things?

Takizawa

Well, he didn't have much to say at the end of the project, but he did point out one thing to me just before the deadline for the playable demo of Twilight Princess that we showed at E3 in 2005. As far as we were concerned, what he pointed out would never have been a problem in previous Zelda games. What he noticed was that even though we had gone to the trouble of making Link look realistic, we used the same animation for climbing up both ladders and ivy walls. And he was right. We thought it wouldn't be a problem because these two actions used the same animation in all previous Zelda games, but in the end that's not really a good reason to do it that way. So we reviewed the demo for about a week and identified a number of things that made us think: "He'll definitely notice this! We better change it or we're in trouble!" In the end, we cleaned it up quite a bit.

Iwata

It was that fresh perspective Miyamoto-san gave you that allowed you to notice different things, wasn't it?

Takizawa

It really was. I think you just need to look at it objectively, but when you're the one working on it you never notice those things.

Iwata

What about with the movies, Kawagoe-san? Did he point anything out to you?

Kawagoe

Well, there were a few changes that accompanied the large-scale changes to the opening of the game. For example, we altered some of the movies to subtly refer to the relationships between certain villagers and so on, but there weren't any major changes

Iwata

One thing I have always admired about Miyamoto-san is how incredible he is at coming up with ideas that make use of the existing materials when he makes his criticisms. Most people who upend tables are more likely to throw away those materials, but Miyamoto-san is very aware of how wasteful that is. Even if his suggestion means that something can't be used in the same place anymore, he makes other suggestions about where else it can be used.

Iwata

That's right. None of the movies were thrown out.

Kawagoe

It's another thing about him that doesn't really match the image that is portrayed by the phrase "upending the tea table."

Iwata

One thing I have always admired about Miyamoto-san is how incredible he is at coming up with ideas that make use of the existing materials when he makes his criticisms. Most people who upend tables are more likely to throw away those materials, but Miyamoto-san is very aware of how wasteful that is. Even if his suggestion means that something can't be used in the same place anymore, he makes other suggestions about where else it can be used.

Kawagoe

That's right. None of the movies were thrown out.

Iwata

It's another thing about him that doesn't really match the image that is portrayed by the phrase "upending the tea table."

Miyanaga

Well, I think that compared to previous Zelda titles, there weren't really any big changes.

Takano

There weren't any real fundamental changes, were there?

Miyanaga

I'm not saying that it was like the overturning of cups and plates that was mentioned a moment ago, but things were indeed sorted out one by one.

Takano

Yes, one at a time. It's like playing Othello against someone who really knows what they're doing. You think you're winning at first, but before you know what hit you, all the pieces are black.

Iwata

Before you know what's happening, you haven’t got any pieces left! (laughs)

Asakawa

That's just what it's like! It really is like Othello! (laughs)

Takano

I know! And if someone else only sees the end of the game, they think you were beaten really badly. But what your opponent really did was methodically take each corner, one by one.

Iwata

What everyone always says about Miyamoto-san is: "First he makes sure that you can't escape, and then he hits you where it really counts!"

All

(laughter)

Takizawa

When he points something out, you really can't argue as you realize he's absolutely right.

Takano

The older developers often say that they basically know what Miyamoto-san will say because they've known him for so long, but to be honest with you, I still don't have a clue!

All

(laughter)

Iwata

All right, I would like to move on to my last question. Of all the things you worked on for this project, I would like to hear what you like the most, something that you put a lot of effort into. Of course it depends on the content, but I would like to include videos for our readers if they can be shown to the public. Let's start with Kawagoe-san.

Kawagoe

Well, since I worked on the movies, I don't think there's anything that can be shown…

Iwata

Well, just tell me what you want to show and let me decide that.

Kawagoe

The part that I genuinely like the best is the movie in the latter half of the game where [............].

Iwata

There is no way we're going to reveal that now

All

(laughter)

Iwata

Well, we've got the equipment all set up here, so let's go ahead and watch the scene. (The movie is shown)

Kawagoe

The reason you can hear a horse neighing in the background is because as a developer it was actually a little embarrassing to make such an un-Zelda-like movie, and the neighing of the horse is the expression of the embarrassment we felt in making the movie.

Iwata

Ah, I see. That's a very nice touch. But…we still can't show it.

Kawagoe

I know! (laughs)

Iwata

Thank you very much. How about you, Asakawa-san?

Asakawa

Well, a lot of things come to mind! (laughs) But I put considerable effort into a particular shop in the game. When the player first goes to this shop,  it's a rather expensive shop that sells only exclusive goods. Let me start by showing you that. (The exclusive shop is shown) So that's what it's like at first. In the later stages of the game, if the player clears a certain sub-event, then it becomes like this. (What happens later is shown)

Iwata

Th-that's! (laughs) You put everything together for this?

Asakawa

That's right! (laughs)

Takizawa

I told her she was overdoing it! (laughs)

Asakawa

I worked on this with Takano-san. It's something we put a huge amount of effort into! (laughs)

Takano

Yes, well our collaboration ended up going off in a strange direction.

Iwata

So, you wanted to do this so badly that you put that much energy into making both shops? (laughs)

Takano

That's right.

Iwata

All those hours you put in must have cost a pretty penny too! (laughs)

Asakawa

Takano-san was really particular about the way this shop-keeper should move. He would actually mimic the movement, saying "Not like that, like this!" (laughs)

Iwata

What, like that? (laughs)

Takano

That's it!

Kawagoe

Takano-san also composed the music for it.

Iwata

You composed the music?

Takano

Well, not exactly…

Kawagoe

Minegishi-san in the sound section created a musical score of the tune Takano-san hummed to him! (laughs)

Iwata

That wasn't exactly cheap either, was it? (laughs)

Iwata

So, can we show the video of this one, too?

Iwata

…… I don't think so.

All

(laughter)

Asakawa

In that case, I'd like to mention something that we can show. There's a girl in this game called Agitha who loves bugs, and I really like the way she was designed. She's dressed like a little girl, but with a gothic twist, and I think female players will find her appealing. I don't think there's been a character like her in the Zelda series as of yet, and I hope everyone likes her.

Iwata

I think we can show that to the readers. What would you like to show everyone, Takano-san?

Takano

I would like to recommend a place in the game called Hidden Gulch. I really wanted to use the theme of an old Western cowboy film this time around. What's the best way to describe it? The player uses the bow and arrow to take down the enemies that are hiding in the shadows of the buildings, one after the other. Well, it's probably best if you see it for yourselves. (The Hidden Gulch event is shown)

Iwata

It's just like a Western! (laughs)

Takano

You get into it more than you would expect. When I first said I wanted to do a Western everyone just stared at me with blank faces, but once I started working on it with the intention of making it a sub-event, everyone really got on board with the idea.

Iwata

This is only a sub-event? That's a shame!

Takano

Actually, it did make its way into the main story line… This is also true of the exclusive shop we discussed a moment ago, but I tend to put my efforts into things that aren't part of the main story! (laughs) I think I have a tendency to do that because the other part of my job, which is organizing the story, is rather serious business.

Iwata

Well, I think the fact that you go the extra mile to create events such as this one is part of the essence of Zelda, too! (laughs) Takizawa-san, how about you?

Takizawa

Well, I worked on the lighting of a particular scene and it was a period where I was regularly working right through the night. When I watched the movie after I adjusted the lighting, I was actually moved to tears in spite of myself! (laughs)

Iwata

I have a feeling that we won't be able to show this scene to the readers.

Takizawa

Well, it's a scene where […………].

Iwata

There's no way we can reveal that here!

Takizawa

I thought as much! (laughs)

Iwata

We'll just have to ask our readers to look forward to knowing that there's such a heart-wrenching scene waiting for them! (laughs) What about you, Miyanaga-san?

Miyanaga

I particularly like the scene where [……] wakes up.

Iwata

[……]? Is [……] in this game?

Miyanaga

As one of the dungeon bosses.

Iwata

…… Then that's out of the question, as well.

Ikematsu

OK, I've got something to suggest that I'm sure can be shown

Iwata

By all means, go ahead! (laughs)

Ikematsu

In Twilight Princess, it was possible to put more characters on the screen at the same time than was possible in previous Zelda games. I was so happy about this that I ended up making a lot of scenes like this one. This is a place in one of the dungeons where there are a lot of enemies. (Sample gameplay is shown)

Iwata

There are a lot of them, aren’t there? Oh, wow, look at that!

Ikematsu

And here, too.

Iwata

Definitely.

Ikematsu

And not only are there a lot of enemies, but they can be taken care of all at once, like this.

Iwata

Ahh, I see. Zelda games are fun for the people who are watching, too. It's interesting just watching someone else play, isn't it?

Ikematsu

It is. Oh, this part is a little gross. An insect-like enemy is squirming around here…

Iwata

Oh! (laughs)

Ikematsu

It might not have been in the best taste! (laughs)

Iwata

No, I think those kinds of things are perfectly fine. You might say that Zelda is the type of game that allows for these things, that it caters to a wide range of tastes.

Kawagoe

Something I really like along those lines is Ooccoo.

Asakawa

Yes, Ooccoo! I just love her, too!

Iwata

Ooccoo? What's that?

Kawagoe

Put simply, she's basically just a warp item that lets you temporarily leave dungeons, but she's been made into a character who is visually...striking. (Sample gameplay is shown)

Asakawa

There she is, Ooccoo. The thing that's sticking its face out of the jar.

Iwata

Oh! (laughs)

kawagoe

I was actually a little shocked when I saw the design for this! (laughs)

Takizawa

The basis for this design was a doodle that one of the illustrators, Nakano-san, drew during a meeting.

Iwata

……a doodle?

Takizawa

Then we had this exchange where Nakano-san said to me: "Take a look at what I came up with." I had a look said: "…Let's go with it!"

Asakawa

The instant he saw it, it was a done deal! (laughs)

Iwata

… OK, thank you all very much.

Iwata

Oh, and Ooccoo has a son!

Iwata

OK! That's enough for today!

All

(laughter)

Iwata

… By the way, why is she called Ooccoo?

Ikematsu

It's kind of a mystery.

Iwata

……

All

……

Iwata

Well, I'm sure that the exchange we just had is also a part of the essence of Zelda!

All

(laughter)

Iwata

Thank you all for your time today.

All

Thank you very much!

Make it 120% Zelda
Miyamoto

So, how did the interviews with the staff go? Did they tell you all sorts of awful stories about me?

Iwata

You knew you were quite welcome to join us! But in the end you decided not to come along.

Miyamoto

I thought they’d find it easier to speak without me there. I did want to hear what they had to say though.

Iwata

You missed some really interesting stuff! There were lots of different points of view about your “upending of the tea table.”1 (laughs) Some people said that this time nothing like that happened, while others disagreed and said that one by one all the plates and bowls were overturned, and before they knew it everything had been changed! (laughs)

Miyamoto

I don’t think I did any table-upending this time around, did I Aonuma-san?

Aonuma

Hmmm… Let me see… (laughs)

Iwata

Perhaps you didn’t do it as aggressively as Ittetsu Hoshi2, but a lot of people said that in the end they realised that everything had been overturned without them realising it was happening! (laughs)

Aonuma

That’s right, this time you did your upending in a slightly more considerate manner.

Miyamoto

No, this time everyone did their jobs so well that I only had to do a bit of rearranging.

Aonuma

There you go again! (laughs)

Iwata

What you mean is that instead of upending the table, you just rearranged the plates? (laughs)

Miyamoto

That’s it! Just a bit of rearranging! You know, let’s put the rice here, and the side dishes over here…

Aonuma

Well, everyone has their own interpretation of things. People like me who are well used to Miyamoto-san didn't bother resisting.

Iwata

Some of the staff were saying that it was more like a game of Othello, with you overturning all of the pieces one by one…

Miyamoto

Ah, Othello! Well yes, I guess it was a bit like that. But I didn’t really overturn anything. To me, “overturning” would mean coming out with something like: “Actually, Link was a woman all along!” (laughs)

Iwata

Oh, don't be ridiculous! (laughs

Miyamoto

“The best way to resolve this would be to make Link into a woman!” That kind of thing… (laughs) I didn’t do anything like that!

Aonuma

You're right, there was nothing like that. (Noticing demo screens from Twilight Princess) Did you play Zelda on Wii during the interviews?

Iwata

That’s right. I got the developers to show me their favourite scenes from the game. Unfortunately, most of them we couldn’t reveal to the public yet! (laughs)

Aonuma

This is the final version, right? Ah yes, it is. I’m glad it's the right one

Miyamoto

We were making changes right up to the end, weren’t we? (laughs)

Iwata

This is a good opportunity to discuss the start-up time for the game. From turning on the console to actually playing Zelda, how long does it take in the final version?

Miyamoto

Well, when you start Wii, a screen showing you how to hold the remote, and health and safety warning screens appear. It takes time to read those, so it’s not easy to give the precise number of seconds it takes. But I can say that it feels as if the game begins quickly. Shall we give it a go?

Iwata

If you insert the Game Disc after switching on the console, it takes a little time to recognise the disc. But if you switch off the console with the disc still inserted, it will start up faster the next time you want to play.

Miyamoto

Yes, I'd like users to notice all the efforts the staff have made, for instance in speeding up the time that the player can get back into the game, using Flash Memory.

Iwata

I really get the sense of it starting up smoothly. But ever since we settled on the development concept for Wii, the two of us have constantly stressed to the development team that we should be aiming for a three second load-up time. We haven't got there yet though, have we?

Miyamoto

Not yet. It takes longer than I thought it would to go from the Channels to the Wii Menu, or from one Channel to another. It bothers me a bit that it's slower than the time it takes to flick between channels on a TV.

Iwata

Yes, I'm particularly concerned about the time it takes to return to the Wii Menu. As Wii has a function which allows the system to be updated both through the Internet or disc media, so even the customers who buy the Wii early on will always be able to have it updated.

Miyamoto

But even with things as they are at present, there aren't many devices that can launch a web browser from the time the power is switched on as quickly as Wii does.

Iwata

How about the time it takes to read data during games?

Miyamoto

It depends on what's going on in the game at a given point, but it takes roughly between two and four seconds to go from one scene to the next. Once you've actually started the game, it's all very smooth. Wii Sports and Wii Play are both especially good on that score.

Aonuma

With Zelda, there are absolutely no scenes which need anything like a loading bar on-screen. If we had needed something like that, I would have made it but as it turned out, it wasn't necessary.

Iwata

That's good news. I think fans will be very glad to hear that. Okay, let's start the interview proper. Thank you both for joining me.

Miyamoto

It's my pleasure.

Aonuma

I'm actually a bit nervous! (laughs)

Iwata

Normally, I get everyone to introduce themselves at the start, but that is hardly necessary for the two of you! (laughs) Eiji Aonuma-san, you worked as the director on The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess and Shigeru Miyamoto-san, you were the producer. Let's begin with you, Aonuma-san. What was the starting point on Twilight Princess?

Aonuma

The initial theme I had in mind was naturally to make the first realistic Zelda since Ocarina of Time. But I didn't dive in with only that aim in mind. I wanted to shake up the Zelda concept a little. That's why early on, I brought up the suggestion that this time Link should transform into a wolf. I really felt that we needed a new twist of some sort. As for why I chose a wolf, it really was simply what occurred to me at the time. My intention was for it to just be one suggestion to get the ball rolling when we were discussing what kind of things we might do. I was curious as to how seriously everyone would take it. That's what I was thinking when I threw the idea out there: "This time, let's make him into a wolf!" Miyamoto-san really gave me a piece of his mind after that! (laughs) I remember him telling me: "It's a lot harder to make a four-legged animal than it is to make a two-legged human, you know!" (laughs)

Iwata

If you compare what you had in mind then with the final product we have today, what are the biggest differences?

Aonuma

Well, as you can imagine, I had no idea it would turn into such an enormous project.

Iwata

You mean you didn't intend it to grow to be quite this size?

Aonuma

At the very least, at the start I didn't envisage the project expanding to the scale it eventually did. But it seems that in the minds of the staff, they wanted to make a very big Zelda, and as development continued, the project grew and grew. At one point, in the middle of development, I actually thought: "This is getting a bit out of hand." I made various attempts to rein in the project, but when something has developed naturally to that size, it becomes somewhat difficult to apply the brakes. At that point, all we could do was fill in the space by cramming it full of more fun elements for the player to enjoy. We kept adding more and more to the game, but the size caused a lot of trouble, right up to the end. Of course, this is not a bad thing, and in the end it has become a Zelda game which has retained a sense of proportion. It's undeniably big, but I believe all those fun elements which make up this world justify this size. Now that we have finished, I feel that with a generation accustomed to watching epic films like Lord of the Rings, when you want to design a convincing world, that sort of vast scale becomes necessary. But it's a fact that putting it all together was a challenge, and I sensed how much I still had to learn as a director.

Iwata

But the final product has been put together successfully?

Aonuma

Absolutely. I can say that we made a Zelda that we can present to the world with real confidence. But to accomplish that, I had to get a lot of people to lend me a hand.

Iwata

So you called on the expertise of Miyamoto-san yet again?

Aonuma

I certainly did! (laughs) I tried to make sure that everything was neatly arranged on top of the tea table for him. (laughs) But as the project grew, unexpected problems started manifesting themselves in unexpected forms, and it became impossible to handle each and every one of them. When Miyamoto-san began fixing various problems, there were plenty of cases where I thought: "I wanted to fix that, but didn't have the time..." But when it came to getting the game into its final form, it is precisely because so many people lent their assistance to the project that I think we have really come up with something special. I am entirely satisfied with how that part of the process went

Iwata

The release of Twilight Princess was postponed by a year from the originally planned date, wasn't it? That was actually the very first time I have ever suggested to Miyamoto-san that we delay the release of a game by a year! (laughs) I was very aware that it would be a real challenge to complete the project on time, but most of all I knew we had to do everything to ensure that this would be our masterpiece, the greatest Zelda of all time.

Aonuma

One of your key phrases was that this should be "120% Zelda", wasn't it?

Iwata

I did say that, didn't I? (laughs) If you forced me to tell you precisely what was 100% Zelda and what was 120% Zelda, I would struggle to answer, but basically I wanted us to make the best Zelda ever. So as well as coming out with slightly unreasonable demands like "Make it 120% Zelda!", I also made the proposal to delay the release by a year. Aonuma-san, how did you react to that delay?

Aonuma

I really felt bad for all the fans who were waiting for the game, but to be completely honest I was grateful for it. At the time the decision to postpone the release date was taken, we had an abundance of really interesting material for the game but we hadn't finished tying it all together. Of course there were parts of the game that were complete but there were also lots of places which simply weren't yet playable at that time.

Iwata

When you showed that playable version at E3, I saw just how many great elements were in the game but that they were still in a state of disarray. You faced a big challenge bringing them all together, didn't you?

Aonuma

Right. For that reason, I was very grateful for the extra year. I don't know how the other staff reacted to the news though. Perhaps they felt that even though they had worked so hard, they still had another year to go. But I think that in order to fully realise everything they had come up with, that extra time was vital.

Iwata

Well, I have asked a total of twelve members of staff about this, and without exception they have said that they were glad about the postponement.

Aonuma

Is that right? That's a relief! (laughs)

Iwata

Of course, it wouldn't be true to say that everyone was looking forward to another year of such demanding work. Also, there were some who said that if the release date was going to be changed, it would've been better to inform everyone of this earlier. But even those people thought it was a good idea.

Aonuma

Ah, I see. But it was really tough, with or without the postponement of the release date. The demand to "Make it 120% Zelda!" is really not an exaggeration, if you think about the level of expectation the fans have. As we have to produce something that lives up to those expectations, simply giving ourselves longer to do it is not in itself something to be pleased about.

Iwata

Miyamoto-san, when the decision to postpone the game's release was made, how did you feel about the Zelda game as it was at that point?

Miyamoto

I thought it was enjoyable, but that it was really a long way from being ready! (laughs) When I thought about where we needed to focus our attention in the time we had left, my head started spinning.

Aonuma

(Embarrassed laugh)But that was exactly the state things were in.

Iwata

Now, a year down the line, it's actually a surprise that it's such a solidly put-together game. In fact, until I came to interview all of the developers, I had imagined that a game of the quality and size of Zelda would be produced with strict orders being handed down from above. Without that, I thought that a project of this scale wouldn't come together. But listening to everyone, it seemed that contrary to what I had thought, everyone came up with their own individual ideas for the game. It seems that somehow everyone had their own conception of what the essence of Zelda was, even if this wasn't expressed in words. Using that nebulous idea as a sort of filter, it is the final fusing together of these individual ideas that gives the game its final form. That's one thing to do with twenty or thirty people, but when you're talking about a huge project with over seventy people, it's incredible to think that this process worked. Aonuma-san, what do you think?

Aonuma

I absolutely agree with you on that. The idea of what defines the essence of Zelda becomes the most important thing. That is really the only absolutely fundamental criterion which we can then use to build on. But as you said, that isn't something which is clearly defined. Personally, I can't put into words what the essence of Zelda is, and while I know that I should be able to, I still couldn't give you a clear definition.

Iwata

Don't worry. Over the course of these interviews, I've been asking everyone what makes a game "Zelda-esque." As you can imagine, the answers have been somewhat confused, and no one has really been able to define it perfectly. But having said that, it is absolutely clear that there is something that resembles a set of values that is common to everyone who worked on the project.

Aonuma

I think that's true. After all, without that we wouldn't have been able to make the game. I'm not talking about a set formula, but I do think that if clear guidelines existed, I might be able to say "Make Zelda like this!" and the game would be developed in line with those instructions. But there is absolutely nothing like that, and Zelda games simply can't be made in that way.

Iwata

Putting together a "How to Make Zelda" guide would be inconceivable.

Aonuma

Absolutely inconceivable. All that we can say to the staff during development are things along the lines of: "Well, we've racked our brains and come up with all the Zelda games this far, so keep that in mind, and keep racking your brains!" (laughs) In that sense, it is possible to give the staff the freedom to get on with developing the game. Needless to say, that doesn't mean I simply left everything to them. Our role is to let the young staff on each of the Zelda projects come up with their own ideas, without being overly influenced by previous Zelda titles, then take those ideas and make them work successfully within the context of the game. But at the end, the more experienced developers have to tighten the screws, so to speak, so all the elements in the game fit together. Without experience, it's extremely difficult to gauge things like how far to let the staff work freely on their own ideas, or how to put the game together in a way that will appeal to the user. It's quite easy to keep coming up with ideas, and expanding the size of the game. It's another thing to decide how best to connect those ideas. As Miyamoto-san often says, that is the part you really need to develop "a feel" for.

Iwata

I see… Miyamoto-san, when you're asked what defines Zelda, how do you normally respond? Can you give a definite answer?

Miyamoto

Sure. For me, what makes a game "Zelda-esque" is actually much the same as what makes a game "Mario-esque."

Iwata

And what might that be?

The Hands-On Approach
(Continued from previous interview)

I see… Miyamoto-san, when you're asked what defines Zelda, how do you normally respond? Can you give a definite answer?

Miyamoto

Sure. For me, what makes a game "Zelda-esque" is actually much the same as what makes a game "Mario-esque."

Iwata

And what might that be?

Miyamoto

Basically, I think it's the way these games respect our customers' intelligence. When our customers play our games, they will do all the logical things they would do as if they were doing something in real life, and if there's something that does not seem to be working the way they should be, they'll get upset. So, the fundamental principle of Zelda is that these logical elements must be neatly integrated into the game. When they're not, it no longer becomes Zelda. That's when I say "Wrong! This isn't Zelda!" So when I'm upset, it's on behalf of the players who would think "This is unbelievable! What's the matter with this game?" (laughs) I have always made games on the basis that my voice is the voice of the player. And if we released it without making adjustments, the situation would ultimately be a lot more serious if we angered our customers. To me this point is absolutely fundamental, and it’s the same whether it’s Zelda or Mario. While both games have that attitude as their foundation, I would say that Mario is fun in a very accessible, immediate way while Zelda really gives you that expansive feeling that you are developing along with the game. Those are really the only differences between the two; fundamentally they are actually the same.

Iwata

Ah, I see.

Miyamoto

It’s fine if someone really likes Zelda’s story: in fact it’s great. But if a person like that starts to work on developing a Zelda game, they won’t necessarily be an ideal match for the project. Something else that is vital to Zelda is that everything fits together seamlessly. This isn’t easy to explain, but what I mean is that with all of the ideas in the game tightly woven together, the various elements of the game will perfectly complement the terrain and scenery. The balance of "sparsity" and "density" in the game works really well. This is something that's important in Zelda. A real challenge with Twilight Princess was that as development moved from the earlier stages into the latter half, that balance was lost. The 3D Modeling Team was steadily expanding the size of the game, but the actual content of the game was not keeping pace. The longer the 3D modeling and the content remain out of step, the more sparse the game becomes. Or, game content starts interfering with other content and spoiling it. Trying to get that under control is a real challenge. Putting it another way, perhaps it's controlling the balance of "sparsity" and "density" that actually makes a Zelda game. Maybe this isn't limited to Zelda... Maybe it's the "Nintendo method" of making games...

Iwata

What you mean is that it's the "Miyamoto method" of making games!

All

(laughter)

Miyamoto

Even if we gathered all the developers together to discuss it, we couldn't get everyone to fully understand what that method actually is. Nor can I adequately communicate it from a position giving instructions from outside the main development process. From the outside, I can see various things on a surface level and could make comments about them, but the person who created those things might feel: "That wasn't what I was trying to do!" We'd always be on different wavelengths. But when I take a more hands-on approach and we all start working together to get the game into its final form, things start to click. When I'm looking at the development process from the outside, even if I were to give them a list of elements in the game which were lacking that Zelda essence, I don't think it would get across what was required. But once I have actually got the team working on implementing these changes to the game, if the developers were to look at that list of parts lacking the essence of Zelda, I think they would understand what had been necessary

Iwata

As they see the changes being made to the game, they come to understand. The fact that our core developers have all been through that experience really makes a difference when it comes to making Zelda.

Aonuma

I think that's true. So, for instance early on in the development process, when young developers encounter Miyamoto-san's input from the outside, a lot of them probably think things like: "Do we really have to pay attention to such tiny details?" or "Surely we don't have to worry that much about something like that?" However, when everything starts fitting together into its final form, they understand what he was doing and they'll say: "Ah, I get it! It turns out this way, so we really did need to do that from the start!" When they were working on making the game, they couldn't see this. Miyamoto-san spoke about respecting our customers' intelligence, but of course, those who were developing the game have never meant to belittle our customers in any way. They just can't help losing sight of how players are going to react to certain things in the game.

Iwata

As development progresses, game developers steadily lose the ability to judge how someone coming fresh to the game, with absolutely no previous knowledge, will feel when they play. That's why I think that Miyamoto-san joining the project towards the end is, in a sense, a very rational way of doing things. If Miyamoto-san was involved from the start, I think he would find it more difficult to see clearly how people will respond to a game the first time they play it.

Aonuma

Right. I developed a set rule when Miyamoto-san pointed things out about a game: "If Miyamoto-san says the same thing three times, we're definitely going to have to make a change!"

All

(laughs)

Aonuma

If he pointed something out once, I wouldn't rush to fix things. I would decide that for the time being, I'd rely on my own interpretation of the issue and make a judgment accordingly. But while I was thinking about it, he'd then point the issue out for a second time. Now that it had been mentioned twice, I'd be thinking that he really wanted to make that change, but I'd still be formulating a plan. Then, as there were other pressing issues requiring attention, I'd set the issue to one side for the time being. At that moment, Miyamoto-san would ask: "Why haven't you done it yet?" That was the third warning! (laughs) From then on, that issue would take top priority. That has been how things have worked up to now, but this time I didn't really have that luxury. The first time something was pointed out, I felt that we had no choice but to change it.

Iwata

So you did it without waiting to be told three times? (laughs)

Aonuma

That's right.

Miyamoto

You're finally seeing things my way, right? (laughs)

Iwata

Did you keep getting "sob story e-mails" from Miyamoto-san?1

Aonuma

Ah, the "sob story e-mails"! Did the young developers mention those when you interviewed them? (laughs)

Iwata

They did! (laughs)

Aonuma

But in my case, I wasn't just getting "sob story e-mails," I was also getting messages sent to my mobile phone with instructions as to what should be changed! I'd be on the train to work in the morning, when my mobile would beep and there'd be a message from Miyamoto-san: "About that feature we were discussing...!" (laughs)

Iwata

(laughs)

Iwata

And it wouldn't just be one; I was getting four, one right after the other! I actually started running on the train in the direction it was headed, thinking: "I've got work to do!" (laughs) What I heard later was that somehow when Miyamoto-san had been sending those messages, he'd actually been in an important meeting!

Iwata

He was sending messages on his mobile phone about changing features while he was in a meeting? (laughs)

Miyamoto

Well, um...you know, there was no time to be lost! The seconds were ticking away… (laughs)

Aonuma

I suppose that's true. In any case, it's a fact that if Miyamoto-san thinks of something, he wants to tell you straight away; he can't wait to tell you in person. So a lot of his instructions this time came in the form of e-mail.

Miyamoto

Right, it was the first time I have done it through e-mail.

Aonuma

When we were working on Wind Waker, he would simply hand me two-page documents with all his comments gathered together, saying: "There you go!"

Miyamoto

In the past I would often gather my comments in one document and hand them to the people in charge. I also used to make a point of avoiding going directly to the development area and to only deal with team leaders. That's because the management of the development team had been entrusted to them. This time round however, there were of course a huge number of people involved as well as a lot of young developers. That's why I thought that rather than all these instructions appearing out of nowhere, it was better if the developers could actually see the process behind these decisions.

Iwata

I see.

Aonuma

This time there were a large number of staff, so if all your instructions were given to me alone, for instance, even making all the necessary arrangements and laying down preliminary plans would have entailed a lot of work. In that sense the system this time, where your instructions were communicated directly to all the people involved, was a good idea. All the people in charge of a particular task would see your e-mails and were able to give feedback based on their individual take on things. As a result of this, I think we were able to decide quite efficiently what we should do next.

Miyamoto

An ulterior motive I had when I chose that way of doing things was that all the staff, not just the people in charge, would understand the criteria we use when assessing a problem. This meant that the criteria the developers applied to situations became standardised. Subsequent problems that came up were then dealt with much more swiftly. Naturally, as the number of people on a project increases, it becomes more difficult to have clear discussions of these issues.

Iwata

But with dozens of people, even when you allow everyone to keep up with what's going on, it's still very difficult to standardise that criteria.

Aonuma

It is.

Miyamoto

That's why I was adamant that people be made aware of the entire background and decision-making process, not simply the final conclusion or instructions that come out of it. But even so...

Aonuma

Even so, there were lots of e-mails which someone involved with Zelda for the first time wouldn't be able to make head nor tail of.

Miyamoto

Right. If they hadn't been following the discussions closely, they would have been totally lost! (laughs)

Aonuma

But as everyone already knows they won't be able to make sense of the e-mails, lots of the staff would come and ask for clarification: "What on earth is Miyamoto-san trying to say with this?"

Iwata

Well, the important thing is that they came and asked for clarification. At least then you can give them an explanation.

Aonuma

Right. Even if they don't fully grasp the meaning of the instructions, everyone will have some idea of what it's about. They can then come to have it clarified, saying something like: "I think it's saying something like this…" In this way, everyone became steadily more proactive in their attitudes so I think the way he did things this time was really positive for all the staff, as well as being a great help for me.

Miyamoto

Was it really?

Aonuma

Yes, it helped a great deal.

Miyamoto

That's good to hear! (laughs)

Focusing on the Player's Perspective
Iwata

Miyamoto-san, how did you feel when you became fully involved in the development process?

Miyamoto

That's a difficult one. I hope it's okay to speak frankly?

Iwata

By all means.

Miyamoto

Well, I've been involved in developing several prototypes throughout the course of the project, so there weren't any serious problems, but... Firstly, the leaders hadn't been checking the progress of the staff. Many staff members weren't able to properly execute the most fundamental parts of their assignments. They weren't able to play catch yet; in fact, they hadn't even got the gist, such as catching the ball in the middle of the glove... Sloppy work, you might say. That's why I've mostly been helping by explaining to them clearly so they could better understand what they are supposed to do in order to correctly execute their assignments. There's one thing I've been grateful for, and that is the level of motivation these people have. The cause of the sloppiness wasn't due to people's lack of motivation, but more that they were stuck in a rut due to the huge amount of work they had.

Iwata

I see. You could say they didn't know where to direct their focus?

Miyamoto

Yes, that's it. Because they were already highly motivated, simply by pointing out what task they should be doing, they were able to make significant progress. And so we've managed to finish in around four months what would have taken around half a year. I was a little concerned at first, but the level of motivation within the development team has really helped.

Aonuma

When you have a lot of individual issues to deal with, it becomes difficult to visualise the whole picture. That's when Miyamoto-san comes in with a clear idea of how things should be, and points us in a certain direction. Then, whether we fully understand what he's doing or not, we become able to move forward. When we do this, we catch a glimpse of the bigger picture. We feel a very real sense that if we are just able to continue like this, we'll get to the end of the project. The problem is that before we reach that point, there are far too many choices to be made, and things become easily confused while we are trying out various ideas.

Miyamoto

Everyone was feeling rather anxious and knew this situation wasn't good, so the main staff members got together to try to sort it out. Although there were some good results, there were some negative ones too. For instance, people lost their sense of individual responsibility. There were a huge amount of decisions which they said had "been made by all of them" and that therefore shouldn't be changed. My answer to this was: "You couldn't all have decided, somebody must've made the decision! Who was it?" When I asked why something wasn't completed, I was often told that it was being adjusted. I would say "the adjustments should've been done by now. Shouldn't you start by saying sorry?" (laughs) I suppose in that sense, I have been a little on the strict side. You have to start by getting people to take responsibility and be able to say: "It isn't done yet, I'm sorry. I take the responsibility." I just think that if we could all understand this, we could work together on solving the problems. Once we fix them, it's finished. It's as simple as that and then we can all relax. Then when we give it to focus testing groups we get a more positive response.

Iwata

They have said that the changes you instigated really improved the game.

Miyamoto

Once we've got all of that straightened out, the rest of the project becomes a process of simply making one small change after the other, carefully editing sound effects or fine-tuning things.

Iwata

Some refer to it as "Miyamoto Magic", but as far as you're concerned, you're just carefully working through everything that obviously needs to be done.

Miyamoto

Exactly, there is no other way. One other thing that I've noticed is that the younger members of staff, who've yet to work on that many projects, don't have a very clear idea of what it takes to bring a project to completion. With video games, the people who truly bring a project to completion are the senior staff such as the director, not the entire team. Those people involved in the project just seem to rush towards the end and cross the finish line without having a clear idea of what's happening. With time, those people develop a clearer idea of what is required to finish off a game properly. I think the company has gained a significant amount through the development of Zelda, as the number of staff we have with these skills has grown.

Aonuma

Yes, we've learned a great deal about the process of completing a project.

Miyamoto

I believe there is a certain way to finish a project, just like there's a way to win in sport.

Iwata

Like getting used to completing them?

Miyamoto

Bringing something to completion becomes really fun. Before you reach the final stage, you can get obsessive and feel like you've got to add more and more. This desire to expand the game is overwhelming, so you find yourself unable to grasp that sense of achievement that you get from completing a project.

Aonuma

It's just that, until you've reached that point it's vital that you are being pointed in the right direction for making the transition from a state of disorder to being able to experience that thrill of completing something. This is what sets the quality of the work apart, and where Miyamoto-san shows such focus. Quite frankly, I still can't see things that clearly. He'll say to me: "How many times have we been through this? And you still get confused?!" But, yes, I still lack that certain clarity. And because I still suffer with this, so in turn do my staff. That's one of the major reasons why we couldn't see the final destination clearly.

Miyamoto

Well, actually, I lose focus too you know. But when it happens, I just try to tell myself to get back on track and move forward. It still happens though.

Iwata

Sometimes thinking about something too deeply can cause you to lose focus. Which is not to say it's a bad thing to think deeply...

Miyamoto

That's right. It's okay to be uncertain from time to time. But by making a decision and sticking to it, you can keep moving forward

Aonuma

But worrying about something so much that you end up waving the white flag is never good!

Miyamoto

It certainly isn't! (laughs)

Iwata

Absolutely not! (laughs)

Aonuma

If you get to the stage where you're pulling your hair out and feeling "that's it, I can't think anymore", you know the result isn't going to be good. That's a really difficult state to be in. In a manner of speaking, it's a mental battle. With this particular project's development, both physical and mental power have been a necessity. Once you're over forty, you really feel that keenly. There were moments when I felt it was taking its toll on me! (laughs)

Iwata

Miyamoto-san, how do you feel about this?

Miyamoto

I've really enjoyed this project. I'm not saying I've been able to focus on it without sleep, or that I've got limitless supplies of stamina, but it was a lot of fun!

Iwata

(laughs)

Aonuma

I still can't believe that someone over fifty was staying at work later than me! (laughs)

Miyamoto

I was going through the project saying: "This is the most fun I've had in ages!" (laughs)

Aonuma

Don't rub it in, by the end I was almost at the stage where I wanted to pull my hair out!

Iwata

It was that bad? (laughs)

Aonuma

When it got to around eleven or twelve, and I was getting tired and thought Miyamoto-san must've already gone home, I'd hear the sound of an e-mail coming in: "He's still here?" The effect of that single e-mail would have me wide awake in no time! (laughs)

Miyamoto

Yes, towards the end I was firing out e-mails in a pretty rough state. When I can spend more time on them, I'll present everything neatly on a flow chart and explain clearly the best approach to implement new features. But towards the end my e-mails got a bit more rough. It got to the stage where everything was being written in list form. People seeing these e-mails for the first time may well have thought they were just thrown together. (laughs) Sometimes my instructions would become so blunt that members of staff would reply saying that they had put together a skit to show me what they thought I wanted them to do. At times I'd think: "They've missed the point here!" Then I'd just send an e-mail straight back telling them not to waste their time on things like that! (laughs)

Iwata

That's pretty harsh! (laughs)

Miyamoto

When I really couldn't get my point across, I'd send e-mails explaining precisely what the game characters should be saying to each other. To which the person in charge of creating the game dialogue would sarcastically reply: "Okay then, we'll use that in the game just as it is. I guess I'm out of a job!" (laughs) Of course, I only used this approach with the staff I've known for a long time and who can fully appreciate where I'm coming from.

Aonuma

But when you sent those kinds of messages, you must have known that some of the younger, less experienced staff members would read them too! (laughs)

Miyamoto

Well yes, if someone who didn't understand our relationship read those e-mails, they might think: "Is it okay to say that?". Or they might think: "Shigeru Miyamoto should be careful or someone will slip something into his drink..." (laughs) People such as Aonuma-san who've known me for years have more or less learnt what I'm like, but newcomers might read these messages, misinterpret the meaning, and think: "Uh-oh. We're really in trouble!" (laughs)

Iwata

I'm sure they would! (laughs) But I've heard that when this happens, the core staff have realised what's going on and let the newcomers know what to expect.

Aonuma

Now, I'm not saying this to flatter my staff, but even though they were getting these harsh e-mails, we certainly didn't have anyone on the verge of giving up completely. Everybody worked hard right until the end.

Miyamoto

They certainly did, and that's what really helped us through.

Aonuma

That's true. When Miyamoto-san said something harsh, we'd all try our best to respond with something that he wouldn't be able to complain about. We did this right to the end of the project.

Miyamoto

I know it's not pleasant for people to face criticism. We become light-headed, weak-kneed and often get angry. It's a normal response to rejection. Whether we're able to fend off this attack depends entirely on our training. But I think that young people nowadays have never really had to face this before. They are all very high-achievers here. They're the best of the best, graduating from universities and being able to enter Nintendo, they've never really faced this kind of harsh criticism before. But making products to sell to people is harsh. If we rush out something that's very rough around the edges, the complaints will soon come rolling in. So you could say that the criticism I give helps to prepare people for this, like a kind of warm-up before the main event. Even us older members can feel somewhat confused when we're suddenly told something we don't want to hear, as if our senses have been dulled.

Iwata

And when that happens, what do you do?

Miyamoto

It's all about how you fend off the attack. It's like getting rid of stress using Tanden1 breathing techniques... (laughs) Take three deep breaths, meditate on what you must do... Wow, I'm beginning to sound more and more like an old man! (laughs)

All

(laughter)

Miyamoto

I think it's also a kind of training. If you can't enjoy what you're doing, you may as well give up. Anyway, what was it we were talking about again? Let me see, I was…..?

Iwata

About getting involved in the Zelda project…

Miyamoto

Getting involved… Yes, it was fun! (laughs)

Iwata

(laughs)

Iwata

Ah yes, we were discussing what I did after joining the project. Well, to put it in a nutshell, I felt that for the first time in a long while I was close to the position of the player. From this perspective I focused on putting all the disjointed components back in order. I jotted down the sections which didn't fit the overall story, or elements I thought were completely out of place. One of the aspects I concentrated on was checking things that shattered the sense of reality within the game.

Aonuma

That's completely true. I could clearly see that he was working with us, while also deliberately assuming the role of the player. (laughs) Even while I admired him, I was thinking how nasty he was being! (laughs)

Iwata

Is there any particularly memorable guidance Miyamoto-san gave you?

Aonuma

Let me think. In one of his e-mails, Miyamoto-san wrote: "We're supposed to be creating something for people's entertainment. This part won't do at all." That has really stuck in my mind. He went on to say: "We want people to enjoy the game, but how on earth are they going to enjoy what you've done here?" The fact that we're making something to entertain people is completely obvious when you stop to think about it, but what he said made me realise it afresh. But the more the project deadlines started to close in, the easier it was for the development team to lose sight of that fact.

Iwata

And so, things that weren't going according to plan began to pile up?

Aonuma

Exactly. If we just rushed something out without making it absolutely perfect, it would be convenient for us, but this idea of convenience doesn't really concern the customer. Their only concern is how it will entertain them, which I can appreciate. This time in particular, due to the lengthy development time of this project, we haven't always had the time to give this our undivided attention. At these times, Miyamoto-san has taken charge and looked at things purely from the perspective of how to produce high-quality entertainment. In my case, I've often felt that while I know what he's saying, it just wasn't always possible! (laughs) I felt like that a lot of the time, but whatever the situation when something important has to be done, even with strict time constraints, you just have to hold on tight and get the job done.

Iwata

There are always any number of things in the development area that you know could be improved, but that aren't easy to change right away. The staff have brought this up in previous interviews but when Miyamoto-san suggests a change to something they felt was already too late to change, they would realise that something had to be fixed and would find themselves able to get it done. There's that kind of gratitude towards Miyamoto-san.

Aonuma

Ah, yes. (laughs) It happened a lot in the past with things that I thought I couldn't be changed, but when I said that Miyamoto-san wants it done, they seemed to get done. (laughs) But it wasn't like that this time, because Miyamoto-san gave us his suggestions in person

Miyamoto

I was often asked: "Are you really going to go ahead with this?" and I'd immediately reply with "yes, I really am!" (laughs)

Aonuma

And for those that didn't quite get it, old hands like us would explain in a rather cryptic way that: "These changes will definitely improve the game, just like they always have in the past!"

Miyamoto

I think I do explain things clearly though. And I always try to be honest right from the word go.

Iwata

No, what I mean is that it's one thing to get someone to understand the reasons for something, but it's a totally different thing to get them to understand those reasons well enough to be able to explain them to somebody else.

Miyamoto

As we were reaching the end of the development cycle, I'd often suggest something and get an answer like "we already tried that and it didn't work". I'd then reply with: "Well, that was then and this is now. So let's try again!" This happened on many occasions.

Aonuma

Yes, that kind of exchange was quite common.

Miyamoto

But hey, it's been a long project, initial builds differed quite considerably from the more up-to-date versions.

Iwata

The thing about Miyamoto-san is that when someone comes to him with a reason why something can't be done, he'll get that person to spit out what would need to be done to get the changes made! (laughs)

All

(laughter)

Aonuma

He won't quit till he gets an answer!

Iwata

People say that you make it so a person can't escape, and then hit them where it really counts!

Miyamoto

They say that?

Iwata

They do! (laughs)

Iwata

Ouch...!

Iwata

But it's not just on this particular project. I've heard many employees make the same kind of comments before! (laughs)

Aonuma

You like delivering that killer blow, don't you?

Miyamoto

I suppose I do, yes!

Iwata

You see, he does! (laughs)

Aonuma

Well, while we're on the subject, that swordsman who appears towards the beginning of the game and teaches Link how to wield his weapon properly, actually teaches him how to pull off that deadly strike later on. You suggested that he should teach the attack straight away! (laugh)

Miyamoto

I asked him why is it that my favorite technique isn't there right from the start! (laughs)

Aonuma

Once he'd made his decision that this attack should be available right at the beginning, I had to relent! (laughs)

Miyamoto

Well, the game needed it, don't you think? The first thing the swordsman taught you was how to knock someone down with your shield, I mean, who's going to use a boring move like that? (laughs)

Aonuma

He was saying: "We don't need it! Just finish them off with one mighty thrust!"

Miyamoto

That's it! One mighty thrust! The scenario had to be altered a lot to accommodate this! (laughs)

Aonuma

It threw the developers in charge into a real panic. They was saying things like: "Putting this move in the game right from the start means we've got a lot of work to do!"

Miyamoto

At times like that, I help out with all the things that have to be reworked to minimize the damage, don't I? I work really hard, you know! I suggest that if we change certain things, it will cause less damage.

Aonuma

That's true. When this man wants to incorporate a change in something, he really does his homework and steels himself for battle! (laughs)

Miyamoto

I only propose something once I have planned how it would actually be done.

Aonuma

And once you've come up with your proposal, there's nothing we can say, right? (laughs) We no longer have a choice!

Iwata

He's got you right where he wants you, ready for the killer blow! (laughs)

Miyamoto

It's a great job, isn't it

All

(laughter)

A First-rate Link, Even by Nintendo Standards
Iwata

Initially, Zelda: Twilight Princess was being developed solely for the GameCube, but you then adapted it for Wii. I’m sure there were many vexing problems along the way, but could you tell me how you found your way through the various complications?

Miyamoto

Well, I felt confident that applying Wii’s unique control system to Zelda would heighten the game’s charm, and the pointer function makes the use of in-game items in the first-person mode both easier and more intuitive. I told Aonuma-san that for the Wii version we would just have to change the controls without having to change the game's content, but there were some concerns about this.

Aonuma

At first, the staff and I were at a total loss as to what to do. We’d been shown a new device, but weren’t happy to just brush it off with: “We don’t have enough time for that!” (laughs) So we started trying out various ideas. One of which was dropping the 3D stick altogether and instead just using the Wii Remote only for it's pointer function in a similar way to the Nintendo DS stylus.

Iwata

You mean, you wanted to control Link by using the Remote to point to a certain destination?

Aonuma

Right. In the end it didn't really work. But even though we felt that it probably wouldn't suit a Zelda game, it was worth giving it a try. We played around with a lot of ideas for the controls and camera work, including those that we thought may have been a little too revolutionary. Then, when we exhibited the game at this year’s E3, we had a version that we felt was just about in a finished state. But there were still things I wasn’t completely satisfied with, and I was concerned about what kind of reception it would receive from the crowds there. As I feared, we received some negative feedback

Iwata

Oh, really? I was under the impression that the people who were able to try it out at the show weren’t that critical

Aonuma

Well, the ones who only played it for a while seemed to enjoy themselves, but the hardcore fans who had gotten used to the GameCube’s control method, and those people who were having a quiet word in Miyamoto-san's ear (laughs) seemed to be less than impressed.

Miyamoto

I did tell him, with perhaps the hint of a threat, that people thought it was terrible! (laughs)

Iwata

(Wry smile)

Aonuma

Getting this kind of chance to sound out people's reactions before a piece of software is released is actually something I welcome. But personally the thing which most affected me was hearing how smooth the controls on Mario Galaxy were! (laughs)

All

(laughter)

Aonuma

Well, you know, I did tell myself at the time that Mario Galaxy was developed for Wii from the start, but I knew the customers wouldn't have any sympathy for that kind of excuse. In any case, it was clear that some serious changes had to be made. Actually, it was the time after E3 that gave us the most headaches with the controls for the Wii version.

Iwata

So, which parts did you begin by changing?

Aonuma

Firstly, we tried to take out all the aspects that had a negative reception during the showing at E3. Then from there, we took things back to the drawing board, going back to the original concept: “What are the best things about using the Wii Remote in this version?” We heard a lot of things like: “We want to use the controller like a sword” at E3. Of course we had already done some experiments involving swinging the Remote like a sword and seeing Link’s action mimic this on-screen. During these early experiments however, we were faced with the fact that players doing this repeatedly would become tired, and so in the end we chose to remove it. Especially at the beginning, we made the game respond to various movements of the Remote. For example, if you swung the Remote vertically, Link would swing his sword vertically. But we felt this would actually become restricting to the player, and would tire the player out if they kept playing this way.

Iwata

But the crowds at E3 seemed intent on being able to wield the Remote like a sword. And so you found yourselves in a tough situation.

Aonuma

Perhaps the most persuasive point for us was that the players who tried the game at E3 instinctively swung the Wii Remote around like a sword. It wasn’t just the sword either, we also noticed that during the fishing sections, players were manipulating the Remote like a fishing rod and reel, even though it was controlled by the buttons. Seeing this, we realised that this must be an intuitive movement. We knew we had to make some kind of adjustments to the game to incorporate this. When people first pick up the Wii Remote, they are expecting the game to respond if they swing it. That's why we knew we had to integrate this functionality into the game. We worried a lot about the actual implementation of these features, but decided to simplify the system so that swinging the Remote did in fact create a sword-swinging motion in the game, but didn’t cause people any stress when trying to do so. Luckily, Zelda isn’t just about slashing away at enemies from start to finish, and I was glad when we were able to recreate a spinning attack with a simple flick of the wrist, which is a lot easier than trying to do it with button commands. Getting to that stage though was very time-consuming, and full of adjustments.

Iwata

It certainly seemed that once E3 had ended, there were a lot of issues concerning the Wii control method for Zelda, but that you really knocked it into shape. In retrospect, even though it was a struggle, are you glad you had a playable version of the game in time for E3?

Aonuma

In the end, I'm glad we managed it.

Miyamoto

I was rather surprised by the reception the game got at E3 as well. I’d expected it to fare a lot better and, in all honesty, I wasn’t prepared for the number of people that found it difficult to use the directional pad while gripping the Wii Remote. Since we’re all very used to using the Remote and very dexterous when it comes to using all the buttons while holding it, seeing the way first-time players gripped the Remote really tightly was surprising! (laughs) It made me realise that it's not easy for most people to move their fingers, as if to utilise a directional pad, when holding something rod-shaped.

Aonuma

One thing we know for certain is that we didn’t perfect the control system with a single idea: making the Remote work by swinging it, or by minimizing the need to use the directional pad, for instance. Even once we’d decided to proceed in a certain way, we still conducted countless tests in an attempt to iron out the small imperfections and give the system a complete overhaul. It was Miyamoto-san and I, through plenty of tweaking and endless discussions of: “You mean like this?” “Yes, like that”, that got it done.

Miyamoto

Yes, and the development process really starts from there. For software in the development cycle, it’s relatively easy to assign functions to a certain button, but the problem was how to make the players really feel they have total control over Link’s movements. If we didn’t go through all the possible control functions thoroughly, and make sure that things were absolutely perfect to prevent minor control errors, we couldn’t really say we’d “tested it”, could we? We honestly did a huge amount of fine-tuning!

Aonumas

We certainly did!

Miyamoto

Even though we managed to find our way through that particularly grueling stage, probably the biggest obstacle we had to face on the long journey to completion was at the beginning when the team leaders were under the impression that, even though the game was going to be released on Wii, they didn’t think they’d have anything to do with the development of that version.

Iwata

I see. Back when you first decided to produce it for Wii?

Miyamoto

Precisely. The staff only thought they were to be involved in the GameCube version, which would be compatible with Wii. They believed that the Wii version wasn’t for them to worry about. So it was only myself, Aonuma-san and the lead programmer who had fully devoted ourselves to doing this version! Once the revelation that “we’re making a Wii version of Zelda!" had sunk in, everybody began putting their all into the project.

Iwata

Ah...

Aonuma

And so at the very end, when we entered the debugging phase and I announced to the staff that they were to begin debugging the Wii version. I was worried that everyone would say: "But we did the most fine-tuning on the GameCube version!" But luckily it didn’t take long before everyone adapted to the Wii version, and subsequently found it tough going back to the GameCube one! (laughs)

Iwata

In interviews with the other developers, the general feeling is that they feel confident about both versions.

Aonuma

I’m glad to hear it! (laughs) A lot of the staff became really passionate about the GameCube version, but they found that because of the differences in the aspect ratio on the Wii version, the player's field of vision is bigger than on the GameCube version. For that reason, a lot of them felt that the Wii version was easier to play. I think that in the end, everything worked out just fine.

Miyamoto

The fact that on the GameCube version left and right are reversed also adds a new enjoyable dimension to the game.

Iwata

I see. Next, I'd like to talk about graphics. In Twilight Princess, the style of the graphics is more real, but your aim wasn't to make them photo-realistic, was it? Aonuma-san, you originally come from a design background, so I'd like to know how you came to settle on the final style?

Aonuma

When I first found out that this Zelda was going to feature more realistic graphics, my initial concern was that we'd just be making a lot of extra work for ourselves. For example, when a realistically proportioned Link jumped in the game, it wasn't a good representation of how someone would jump in real life. If I tried to make it too realistic, the game would suffer as a result. And so, even though there are parts that lacked total realism, I focused on the adjustments needed to make Link move smoothly. This was very difficult, but we didn't have to make it ultra-realistic. To quote Miyamoto-san: "What's happening in the game world should feel true to life." And so our ultimate goal was to ensure that the character's design and movements weren't labored and were at least close to reality, without us expending too much time and energy on it. We didn't have to do this for everything of course, just those certain aspects that required it. Finding those aspects however, was the most challenging part.

Miyamoto

In other words, it's like setting the scene for a play rather than recreating the world as it is. If you don't tell people they should be making a stage, they go ahead and try to make an entire world. There is an art to how you properly set a stage and that's what I had to carefully explain.

Iwata

Is there anything you could tell us specifically?

Miyamoto

Well for example, imagine a scene with lots of small stones. On the one hand, you could make it so that the player can move every single one. But if you can successfully communicate the premise that there are also stones that don't move, they will accept this. So, it is far more important to make the stones that can be moved, to move naturally from the player's perspective, rather than making every single stone movable. When and where to do this while constructing the game's world is something that clearly wasn't going well when I stepped into the development of this project, and I found myself having to drill the details into the staff.

Iwata

Did those problems have anything to do with the sheer size of the project?

Miyamoto

Yes, I think they did. These days development is much more fragmented with separate people working on tasks such as graphics, movements and item placement. When creating realistic movement within the game's environment everything is essentially connected; whether it's the way the graphics are drawn, how the program is written or even where the objects are placed, even the designs have an impact on this. And when one aspect is out of place in the game world, it loses its seamless connection to the other parts. When I find one of these problems and attempt to locate the cause, people tend to point the finger at someone else and have me going round in circles! (laughs) And just like I've mentioned before, I'll then get angry: "Who put this stone here?" Somebody must've put it there! When I try to track the culprit down, it always comes back to the director. "The designers and programmers didn't do it, so it must've been the director! Who's in charge here!" This happened quite a lot.

Aonuma

But there really are times when a stone is placed somewhere for absolutely no reason whatsoever!

Miyamoto

And when I find one of them, I'll always ask: "Why was it put here?"

Iwata

And the answer is usually: "I just felt like it." (laughs)

Aonuma

I know, or "I just thought I'd put it there" is another one. (laughs)

Miyamoto

I'd actually be happier if someone said: "It looks good, don't you think?" (laughs)

Iwata

"I just felt like it" really is the worst possible answer you could get!

Miyamoto

I mean, everyone's so busy every day dealing with other problems that I they rarely have time to give the stones a lot of thought. They often just stay exactly where they're put.

Iwata

I see. Now, let's turn again to the game's graphics. When we see a picture of Link, we don't merely see a CG model, or a comic book character, we see a fully-developed character who feels realistic when he moves and has a really unique sense of balance. I personally felt that this style was unique, but how do you feel Aonuma-san, speaking as the person who realised this style?

Aonuma

But it's not just the individual pictures, I believe the amalgamation of everything produces a real power which makes Link unique. There are so many people working on the various designs that there is inevitably a degree of inconsistency. This is where the senior directorial staff, beginning with Takizawa-san, have to step in, and as we were saying just now, decide the points that are essential, focus on retaining them and thereby maintain the game's coherence. But this time round, this was especially challenging due to the sheer amount of these tasks. But thanks to a lot of trial and error they conducted right down to the lighting and the very atmosphere of the game so that you can feel the air around you, the whole world really came together well. And the result of all these elements coming together is that Link now moves exceptionally well. The atmosphere in this game reminds me a lot of Ocarina of Time. That game's atmosphere really was in a class of its own and I'm sure fans of the series will agree. The staff here held that as one of their aims and believe that, by using Ocarina as a basis, they've been able to revive that atmosphere in a new form.

Iwata

The game certainly does have that feeling about it. What do you think of the new Link, Miyamoto-san?

Miyamoto

The new Link is truly wonderful, isn't he? It won't be easy to make something as good as this again. Even by Nintendo standards, this is first-rate.

Iwata

Wow! (laughs)

Miyamoto

No really, I think this is something we should all be proud of. The person in charge, Nishimori-san, may be one of our younger members of staff but he's been working closely with an experienced programmer. Aonuma-san and myself have been discussing things with him since the planning stage and have checked everything exhaustively. We would discuss the best methods of programming right down to the nearest millisecond.

Iwata

So, Miyamoto-san, you've no more complaints about Link?

Miyamoto

None at all. But there's plenty I'd like to say about the movement of the animals! I'd be saying: "You call that an animal?" (laughs) "You call that a horse? Go and see what a horse really looks like!"

Iwata

Yes, that has come up in the interviews before! (laughs)

Miyamoto

Ah, they told you about that? (laughs) But back to Link, I really think that for a player character the quality of his movement is unsurpassed. Even right near the end when I spotted something and said that it would be a shame if it wasn't perfect and that we should fix it, everybody was happy to put the work in and get the job done. I said a bit hesitantly: "At least let's fix this", but the team responded with: "If we're going to fix it, let's fix it properly!"

Aonuma

You were hesitant? (laughs)

All

(laughter)

Iwata

Also, this Link not only moves very well, but he also has real charm.

Aonuma

Even though he's the player's character, he comes with his own personality, which sounds a bit strange, but I think that his uniqueness probably became apparent right after Miyamoto-san had him throw that goat! (laughs)

Miyamoto

This was one time I just had to speak out. With this project I was supervising, and entrusted the planning side of things to other people. But in exchange I said: "Let me throw that goat!" (laughs)

Iwata

Another act of violence! (laughs)

Aonuma

Well, that was one big goat! Up to that point Link looked a bit doll-like, but once he threw the goat we started to think: "Maybe he could do this" or "Maybe he could throw that!" The things Link could do grew and grew…

Miyamoto

Throwing the goat, throwing the mid-level boss

Aonuma

Let's try not to give too much away! (laughs)

Miyamoto

Oh, yes... (laughs)

Iwata

Whatever the case, this Link feels very responsive.

Aonuma

Yes, and there were plenty of other things I wanted to add! But if I mentioned this you'd probably say: "What? You want even more time!" (laughs)

Iwata

I probably would! (laughs)

Aonuma

But even so, in all honesty there were other things I wanted to do.

Miyamoto

I think what we did was enough, but even that didn't satisfy my desire to do more. If only I could change it just a little bit more... (laughs

Iwata

I suppose that's what makes it Zelda.

Each Philosophy Benefits from the Existence of the Other
Iwata

The image of Wii in the lead-up to its launch has been shaped by the fact that most of the attention is being given to games that can also be easily enjoyed by non-gamers, typified by the Wii Sports package. That's partly due to the fact that Nintendo's primary goal is the expansion of the gamer population. However, that doesn't mean in the least that Nintendo feels the games most enjoyed by our core fans like Zelda aren't important anymore. Quite the contrary - our ambitious plan was to create and launch the ultimate traditional gamer's game at the same time as Wii, a console designed to expand the gamer population. Did the co-existence of these seemingly disparate goals in the company ever make it hard for you to continue with the lengthy development of Zelda, or make you question the value of your work to the company? This is actually a question that I didn't ask the other developers.

Aonuma

You didn't? I would've liked to hear their comments. Well, hmm…let's see. This might not be the best way to put it, but at the beginning of development, we started work on Twilight Princess with the intention of helping the GameCube go out in style. Put another way, we wanted to proceed straight ahead within the framework of traditional gaming and make a game that would really blow people away. Our focus was clearly different from that of Wii, which was designed to be easy to play and to be something everyone can enjoy. However, I think the fact that this Zelda can be played on Wii helps build a number of bridges. It will provide a chance for people who bought Wii for the simple and intuitive controls to see how much fun traditional games can be. At the same time, for people who like traditional games and are harboring some doubts about Wii games, or who have already decided that Wii is not for them, Zelda might become a gateway for them to see how much fun Wii is.

Iwata

I see.

Miyamoto

But what about the state of mind of the internal staff members? A few years ago, for example, the Zelda team was considered to be the top development team within Nintendo. Of course the various development teams in the company weren't ranked, but it would be fair to say that the Zelda team represented the whole company. But then the Nintendo DS came along and its simple and fun games were huge hits. We became able to keep putting out great games without investing a lot of people or time in development.

Aonuma

Hmm, well yes, that's true.

Miyamoto

In the context of this new climate, when Zelda became the biggest project in the company, some people started to say half-jokingly: "We could probably make five other new games if we didn't have Zelda." It would be going too far to say that making this kind of huge game is somehow obsolete, but there are trends even within parts of Nintendo to move away from this approach. During development, wasn't there any sense of melancholy in the team, a feeling that the days of enormous projects like this were numbered?

Aonuma

Let me think about it for a moment…… No, I don't think there was anything like that. The feeling in the team was more like: the DS is the DS, Wii is Wii, and more importantly for us, Zelda is Zelda

Miyamoto

So no one was worried about being left behind?

Aonuma

Well, I'm sure some people felt that way. We were continuing to do what we've always done in the midst of a change of direction within Nintendo, so I would be lying if I said that no one was worried about being left behind. When we missed our window of opportunity to help the GameCube go out in style and it was decided to also make a Wii version, things got a little chaotic. But despite that, no one ever said anything like: "We shouldn't be spending time on making Zelda anymore." No matter how much trends in the industry were changing, we had absolute and unwavering confidence in what we were making.

Iwata

I'm sure that you wouldn't have been able to create a Zelda like this if you'd felt that this kind of big project was becoming a thing of the past. So as you said, I don't think people in the development team were concerned by this. Or if they were, it was in the sense that the company's new direction acted to motivate them.

Aonuma

Yes, I think it probably helped motivate the team.

Iwata

I think there is value in the mentality that was brought about by the success of the Nintendo DS, namely that it is possible to create a good product without investing a huge amount of time or resources. On the other hand, making games like Twilight Princess is also important because it gives us a chance to impress players with what we can do when we devote a talented team of people to making a single game over a long period of time. I also think each philosophy benefits from the existence of the other. I think that without either one of them, the resulting lack of variety would be unhealthy.

Miyamoto

I think that's true.

Aonuma

As do I. Since I've only worked on large, epic games before, I realise that I'll need to start thinking about things from a slightly different point of view from now on. I think that all of the other staff are becoming aware of the need to do this, too. While we don't have any regrets whatsoever about how this Zelda has turned out, the next time we are deciding what kind of game to make, I think the differences between these two philosophies will become a constructive topic for debate.

I Simply Want Everyone to Enjoy this World
Iwata

Every time I helped with testing in Zelda: Twilight Princess, I find myself taken aback, thinking: "I can't believe you even included this!" And since you've put so much effort into refining the game to that point, in this final interview I think it's only fitting for us to introduce these touches to all the fans who've been patiently waiting for the game's release. Some examples include the changes throughout the four seasons and the weather at the fishing pond, when the water becomes muddy after it rains. Another one is when you drink from one of the jars, the surface of the liquid remains level even when you tilt it. Why has so much time and effort been invested in making these minor details? (laughs) I was really left shaking my head in disbelief when I saw the sheer number of these touches throughout the game. But even though I'm still wondering why would you go to all that trouble, I still really want people to know about these details. I want them to appreciate the lengths you have gone to in order to create such a foolishly detailed world! (laughs)

Miyamoto

Well, on this subject, I've often said half-jokingly: "In this game, even the sides of the ladders have patterns on them!" (laughs) But whenever you climb a ladder, the camera moves so it's directly behind you meaning you can't actually see the sides of the ladder!

Aonuma

Miyamoto-san, are you implying that there was some bad management in the development team? (laughs)

Miyamoto

How much time did you spend on that part? (laughs)

Iwata

Well, let's forget that particular point for now! (laughs)

Aonuma

Agreed! (laughs)

Miyamoto

It's a well-known fact that Zelda games always have signposts that can be sliced apart by the player. The village at the beginning of this game is no exception. However in this game, finally, the pieces you cut off can be picked up!

All

(roaring laughter)

Aonuma

And of course, if you throw them into the river they float

All

(laughter)

Miyamoto

They really do float. The reason we enabled the player to pick up the pieces and carry them was because there were no signposts right by the river.

Aonuma

Exactly! (laughs) If you don't take them and throw them into the river, they're not going to float.

Miyamoto

And because we've made it so the pieces float, it'd be a real waste if the player didn't get to see this. That's why we let them pick them up, carry them to the river and throw them in! Setting up this feature took us about the same time as it did to work on one of the horses! (laughs)

Iwata

A fine example of putting the cart before the horse! (laughs)

Miyamoto

It really was! (laughs)

Aonuma

We often couldn't be sure which was the horse and which was the cart! (laughs)

Miyamoto

There are plenty of these touches in this Zelda for the player to enjoy. And why did this happen, you might ask. Well, in the early stages of development neither the overall direction of the story, nor its finer details had been settled on. For that reason, the development team concentrated on creating things that could be used however the story turned out. The enemies were designed so that they could appear at any location throughout the game and the items were made so they could be used just about anywhere. Normally, when the framework for a game is decided you basically try to put all of the things you have made already into the game, making adjustments to them to ensure the minimum amount of waste. However, this time round with Zelda the trial-and-error process was so long that a large number of things made with great attention to detail remain in the game without having been through that adjustment process.

Aonuma

The perfect example are the characters who duck when you swing your sword at them! (laughs)

Miyamoto

Ah yes! (laughs) There are some children who duck out of the way when you swing your sword at them!

All

(laughs)

Aonuma

In previous Zelda adventures, the non-player characters show little or no reaction if you swing at them. We had this feature left over from something made as an experiment quite some time ago, and for some reason we made it so only the children dodge Link's sword.

Miyamoto

Well, speaking to those children isn't particularly interesting, but when you swing that sword they all duck! People say things like: "That's the funniest part!" (laughs) Actually, one of them dodges the strike by bending backwards.

Aonuma

The shortest one, right?

Iwata

Well, seeing as this rather silly part of the game doesn't ruin the storyline, it'd be nice if we could show a video clip if at all possible...

Aonuma

There are many of these kinds of moments in the early stages of the game. We were making them right from the initial development stages.

Miyamoto

What else was there… Ah yes, we already talked a little about the goat-throwing section, but to continue from that, there are a pre-determined number of goats that appear in the game. When I found out the reason for this, I was quite speechless! (laughs) The way it works is, there's an event where Link has to round up a certain number of goats. The number of goats isn't determined by the event's difficulty, but instead by the number that can fit into the pens in the barn!

All

(laughter)

Aonuma

The number of places in the barn was set and that dictated the total number of goats we could have…

Miyamoto

I spoke to the director about why we couldn't have a larger number, but he told me that it wouldn't be possible because there were only twenty-four spaces in the barn! (laughs) Also, in early versions of the game, Link couldn't even enter the barn.

Iwata

So, you couldn't even see the number of pens?

Miyamoto

Precisely! (laughs) What were you thinking, limiting the number of pens! But in the end, Link became able to enter the barn.

Aonuma

And from time to time when the goats escape, you can now go into the barn and check to see how many of the pens are empty. That's the kind of detail the team spent their time implementing! (laughs)

Miyamoto

Nobody's going to check anyway! (laughs) There were many points like this throughout the game.

Aonuma

That's true. Before we knew it, all these details were already in the game!

Iwata

Really? (laughs) So many nice touches have been put in the game, I think the most fun thing will be laughing out loud as you find them one by one. Since you're paying for the game anyway, you may as well get the most out of the experience!

Aonuma

Of course! (laughs)

Miyamoto

For those who play the game, try moving the camera around from time to time and you'll find all kinds of wonderful things hidden away outside the main gameplay area if you take the time to look. (laughs)

Iwata

We couldn't claim this to be a major selling point for the game though! (laughs)

Miyamoto

There is a wealth of detail in the graphics so that when you pull the camera away it looks really impressive. This is in spite of the fact that you can't see these things when just playing through the game normally! (laughs) By changing the camera view occasionally, you'll suddenly catch a glimpse of some truly wonderful views.

Aonuma

That's absolutely right. Taking the time to have a look around can really pay off. There really are points that will make you think: "This is a breathtaking world." But that doesn't necessarily make the game good... (laughs)

Miyamoto

I think it's a good thing. Even the enemy characters are wearing great-looking armor and equipment decorated with finely detailed textures. Our developers made it this way without considering how much you'd be able to see it when playing the game! (laughs) But they did think that you'd be able to get a better look once the enemies had been knocked down.

Aonuma

In this sense, we haven't made any compromises in bringing this world to life, and it's clear to see that the staff haven't cut any corners either.

Iwata

It certainly gives that impression.

Miyamoto

I once had a discussion with Hayao Miyazaki1 when he was making Porco Rosso2 and he asked me if I knew the way to make a landscape look authentic from a bird's-eye view. I wasn't sure and when I asked him what it was, he said: "Just keep drawing!" (laughs) It seems it's all about putting your nose to the grindstone and adding more and more detail. With this Zelda there were times when that was just what we did, and it was precisely because we put so much into the graphic detail that the game looks really good when the camera pulls away to take in the surrounding view.

Iwata

Yes, I'd have to agree with you.

Miyamoto

Those aspects might not always be seen when playing the game, but nonetheless I'd like to praise the staff on all the work they put into making those fine details! (laughs)

Iwata

Everything you see in the game world is fully-formed, not made in the same way as the set of a TV show which, if you view it from a certain angle, hasn't been fully built. Realising a vision like this may have been hugely expensive but you've really come up with a world you rarely see in video games. A lot of time and effort has gone into crafting all the details in this game, so I'd really like the players to thoroughly enjoy this rich gaming experience.

Miyamoto

Even things such as the doors have been lovingly put together.

Aonuma

It's just another indication of the quality that's found in Zelda games. If we were making a game that only used a fixed camera angle for example, there would be no need to make things that appear on the sides or behind the player as they wouldn't be seen. But that's not the kind of approach we like to use for a Zelda game. We were also keen to make the locations on the landscape interconnect and make them accessible from any direction where possible, that's why we really feel that no corners have been cut. The reason we made such an effort to include as many features as possible is because our aim is to make people feel that the vast land of Hyrule is a true living and breathing environment.

Iwata

Okay, finally I'd like to ask you both to give a message to the many fans who've been waiting for Zelda: Twilight Princess. Aonuma-san, would you like to start?

Aonuma

Well, to put it simply, I just want the fans to really embrace the wonderful world we've created. We worked ourselves to the bone making this and feel we've accomplished our goal and produced a truly great piece of work. I really hope you take the time to play this game as a new type of Zelda experience awaits you.

Iwata

Miyamoto-san, what would you like to say?

Miyamoto

I doubt there are many teams out there that could make something of this caliber. It's completely faithful to the spirit of Zelda, I mean, this game sticks to that clear path that a Zelda game must stick to. I know I can't predict how the world will react to this game, but I think I can safely say that there's nothing else like this available. The staff remained positive, and even when they were exhausted they worked hard right until the last moment putting everything together. Because this game contains so much energy, I'd really like people to pick it up and give it a try. As for my role this time, I feel I've helped more in putting everything together into its final form, rather than assisting with the creative side. Now it's finished, I can look back and feel that it's been a very enjoyable experience. What do you think, Iwata-san?

Iwata

Firstly, I think the final product really benefited from the decision to extend the development time by an extra year. The sheer scale of this project meant that there wasn't a clear plan from the start, but in spite of this I feel that the Zelda development team achieved their true potential and demonstrated their astonishing ability by bringing all the elements of this game neatly together in one well-rounded package. I haven't had the chance to play the game through in its entirety yet, but I have been able to check all the individual pieces and can confidently say that the wealth of ideas and energy that has been put into this game really shines through. Even with all the resources we have here at Nintendo, we could only make something like this once every few years. In fact, it might not be easy to do something like this again, so I really want everyone to have a wonderful time playing this game.

Aonuma

Indeed, and with this version of Zelda, you should really get your money's worth with over a hundred hours of gameplay.

Iwata

And none of that time feels in the slightest like a chore, which is really an achievement.

Miyamoto

When we say it will take a hundred hours, we don't mean you will spend half the time just building up your strength and supplies... Well, perhaps there is the odd time you have to collect rupees, but that's it! (laughs) Even then, we have made it so that the player will have fun coming up with ideas to get those rupees. This is a game you won't tire of!

Aonuma

Another thing is that this project has seen a mixture of creators, both old-timers and newcomers alike who've worked together to produce ideas that manage to combine a fresh approach with oddly nostalgic gameplay.

Iwata

And because of that, I think we've made a game that has a very broad appeal.

Aonuma

That's right, and even people of Miyamoto-san's generation will be playing this one! (laughs) Three generations of people will be able to enjoy this gaming experience.

Iwata

By "three generations", you mean like Touch Generations, right? (laughs)

Aonuma

Right. Which is a good thing! (laughs)

Miyamoto

I also wanted to mention the sound and programming teams as well as the people who made the videos and demos. They didn't take part in these interviews, but worked just as hard as the rest.

Aonuma

That's right.

Iwata

To tell the truth, I still have lots of questions I wanted to ask the developers in these interviews…

Miyamoto

Speaking of which, these discussions are being translated and put on the international Nintendo sites as well, aren't they? I just wanted to add to the many fans of Zelda around the world that members of the foreign localization teams came over and worked with us during the development. And to these teams, I wanted to say that they really are very dedicated to what they do.

Aonuma

They certainly did work hard. This is actually the first time a Zelda game is being released simultaneously worldwide too. Various localization teams from around the world came to Japan and worked together with us on making this possible.

Miyamoto

They even worked alongside us until late at night.

Aonuma

They did. Generally speaking, I heard that most people in other countries tend not to work that late, but these guys sometimes worked until 1am!

Miyamoto

I said to one of the European team members: "You're working late!" and they replied: "Yes, because the Japanese staff haven't gone home yet!"

Iwata

(laughs)

Aonuma

There was a good sense of unity among us. When they went to the local convenience store to buy a late-night bento box to eat, we thought: "That's just what we do!" (laughs)

Iwata

To the localization teams that worked together on this project, you certainly know your Japanese culture!

Aonuma

I agree.

Miyamoto

Another thing, there are more people translating the game's text into English than there were making the original Japanese! (laughs)

Aonumas

There were, weren't there? (laughs) There were people to pick out the intricacies of the original Japanese, others to convert the language into English and then even more people in charge of perfecting it and making it sound natural!

Miyamoto

Not forgetting the people who iron out the parts of the story they think are weird! (laughs)

All

(laughter)

Iwata

I'd just like to say thank you to everyone for spending such a long time today answering my questions.

Aonuma

Thank you.

Miyamoto

Thank you very much.

Volume 1: The Legend of Zelda: Spirit Tracks (2009)
This 2009 interview goes over the creation of and features Satoru Iwata, Eiji Aonuma, and Iwamoto.

The Previous Game Felt As Though We'd Given Our All
Iwata

All right, to start off, please introduce yourselves.

Aonuma

I'm Aonuma, from Entertainment Analysis & Development. I produced this game, The Legend of Zelda: Spirit Tracks, and I also produced the previous game,  The Legend of Zelda: Phantom Hourglass.1

Iwamoto

I'm Iwamoto, of the same department. I acted as director for this game, as with the previous game.

Iwata

Aonuma-san, you're involved with both the Wii and Nintendo DS editions of The Legend of Zelda. Are there any differences in how you work on the two?

Aonuma

When I work on the Wii edition, I'm right on-site, and I often do my job from a director's perspective. On the Nintendo DS version, I do proper producer's work. ...That said, when I worked on the previous game, The Legend of Zelda:Phantom Hourglass, I was simultaneously making  Twilight Princess, so I couldn't keep a very close eye on things right from the beginning. Then, when The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess was finished and I went to the Nintendo DS version's office, the development was already pretty far along. From my point of view, it was at a stage where I could really make myself useful.

Iwata

So you're saying that you left the site for a while, and that let you see the Nintendo DS version with a new set of eyes. As a result, you were able to spot the places where you could put in a little more work and really improve things.

Aonuma

That's exactly it. So then - and I did feel bad to do so - I asked that development be extended three more months, and I worked on it during that extra period. Then, the more I worked, the better it got.

Iwata

Yes, I'd heard something about that, too. I heard that the quality of the previous game improved tremendously during the final stages of development.

Aonuma

And then we had Iwamoto direct this time just as he did with the last game. About half of the staff had been involved in The Legend of Zelda: Phantom Hourglass as well, so I left matters in their hands to a certain extent. And, again, for about the final two months of development...

Iwamoto

It was closer to three.

Aonuma

As you'd expect, I went back in right in the final stages of development, as I had with the previous game. I'd lobbed out several proposals, and when I came back, the results I've gotten were far better than I'd hoped for. I think I must have played the game through about ten times from there on. (laughs) I was making the final balance adjustments.

Iwata

The producer says it was far better than he'd hoped for. Director Iwamoto, how did this project begin?

Iwamoto

To start with, in the previous work, we'd included a lot of different features. Personally, I felt as though we'd really done our best. We built in all sorts of ways to play, using the Nintendo DS handheld's functions. But then Producer Aonuma said, "There's still quite a lot left to do here, isn't there?"

Iwata

Even though you've done all you could (laughs).

Aonuma

You see, though, I did feel the same way. In the previous game, there was a tremendous amount of ideas, and even I felt very strongly that we'd done absolutely everything.

Iwata

Since you both felt that you'd done everything there was to do, what made you decide to make another The Legend of Zelda for Nintendo DS?

Aonuma

Well, there are some definite similarities between that sequence of events and the way  The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask came from  The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time.

Iwata

That's right, the situation now is similar to the way things were with the N64.

Aonuma

Very similar. If I start telling that story, though, we could be here for a while. Is that all right?

Iwata

Of course, please, go on. I doubt it's even possible to talk about "The Legend of Zelda theory without mentioning that story.

Aonuma

All right. Our first 3D The Legend of Zelda game for the N64 turned out to be The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time. I did some direction on that one, although it was only partial: I was in charge of dungeon design.

Iwata

Somehow, I had the impression that you'd been overseeing everything since Ocarina of Time, Aonuma-san. Now that I think about it, I guess that wasn't the case.

Aonuma

Absolutely not. I managed to stay out of the line of fire most of the time back then. (laughs)

Iwata

(laughs)

Aonuma

Well, and they pretty much let me do whatever I pleased. So when we made The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time, I felt very strongly that we'd given it our best.

Iwata

When The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time came out, people said it was far above the average level of games at the time, so I'm sure you did feel you'd done your best.

Aonuma

That's right. It made us very, very happy (laughs). Even after its release, I felt that we'd really done something special; I felt very fulfilled. At the time, I think (Shigeru) Miyamoto-san had that same feeling, but apparently he also felt as though there was still quite a lot left to do.

Iwata

Yes, Miyamoto-san really is greedy about things like that, isn't he. (laughs)

Aonuma

And so he said: we'd already made 3D models for The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time. By changing the situation, couldn't we make new ways to play, a new story?

Iwata

So you made The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask.

Aonuma

No, we didn't just start making The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask, not right away. There was actually a flip-side, and in the beginning, the idea was to make a "Ura (Flip-Side) Zelda".

Iwata

That "Ura Zelda" (The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time: Master Quest) was developed for the 64DD. Ultimately, we recorded it on a limited edition disc that went to people who reserved The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker.

Aonuma

Ultimately, other staff members handled The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time: Master Quest. Still, as someone who has been in charge of the dungeons, I just couldn't get that excited over making a flip-side for them. I couldn't see it turning into a new The Legend of Zelda, either. But we'd been told to make The Legend of Zelda. It isn't as though we could just say, "I don't want to", and end it there. At that point, Miyamoto-san gave us a tradeoff: he said, if we could make a new The Legend of Zelda game in one year, then it wouldn't have to be a "flip-side".

Iwata

Well! So you're saying The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask was the result of your team picking up the gauntlet he'd thrown down? (laughs)

Aonuma

Yes. That was the deal. But The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time did take three years to make, you know!?

Iwata

That it did (laughs).

Aonuma

And we were supposed to make its sequel in a year... At first, we had absolutely no idea what sort of thing we were supposed to make, and we just kept expanding our plans... At that point, the "Three-Day System", the idea of a compact world to be played over and over again, came down from Miyamoto-san and one other director, (Yoshiaki) Koizumi-san. We added that to the mix, and then, finally, we saw the full substance of a The Legend of Zelda game we could make in one year.

Iwata

Actually, I feel as though, back then, we were given a glimpse of the concept that "Deep, compact play is one form of the games of the future". I think in that sense, as a product, The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask was a big turning point for Nintendo. That said, I had no idea it was the result of an argument. (laughs)

Aonuma

That's correct. (laughs) Still, in the beginning, it was all trial and error. Ultimately, we adopted the "three-day system", and made it so that, if you couldn't clear the game inside of three days, the world was destroyed.

Iwata

It turned out to be a very tense game, didn't it.

Aonuma

Then, in The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask, you had to remember all sorts of things so that the world wouldn't be destroyed: "Oh, there was something here, and something else over there", things like that. That's another thing it shares with The Legend of Zelda: Spirit Tracks.

Iwamoto

You're traveling by train, and if you're careful to remember where things are, they come in handy later.

Aonuma

And this time, since it's on the Nintendo DS system, you can take notes.

Iwata

It's very odd that something you worked so hard to think up should come in handy again now, almost ten years later. (laughs)

Aonuma

It is. (laughs)

Why Tetra Makes No Appearance
Iwata

So, even though you felt you'd done everything you could with The Legend of Zelda: The Ocarina of Time, The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask came out of it. Now, in the same way, you progressed from The Legend of Zelda: Phantom Hourglass into making The Legend of Zelda: Spirit Tracks.

Aonuma

That's right. After we made Ocarina of Time, and Miyamoto-san said, "There are still things you can do, aren't there"... I think those words came back again, inside me.

Iwata

It's just like the way an apprentice thinks, "How cruel", but then ends up doing the same thing to his apprentices. (laughs)

Aonuma

It really is. (laughs) Now that I think about it, it's a rather inhumane story.

Iwamoto

(Laughs)

Aonuma

But we did manage it with The Legend of Zelda:Majora's Mask. So I said, "You people can do it too!" Also, "This is a sequel, so you'll be able to make it fast, won't you."

Iwamoto

He did say that (laughs).

Iwata

Iwamoto-san, do you mean your producer urged you, "We got The Legend of Zelda:Majora's mask finished in a year, so come on, let's do this in a short time frame, too"?

Iwamoto

No, he didn't go that far. (laughs)

Aonuma

I didn't. (laughs)

Iwamoto

He didn't say it, but... He might as well have. (laughs)

Aonuma

Besides, this game had a two-year development period.

Iwamoto

Two years... isn't really all that much. (laughs)

All

(laugh)

Aonuma

To begin with, Director Iwamoto was on the The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time staff as well.

Iwata

That's true.

Iwamoto

I've been involved in the The Legend of Zelda series since The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time, but I wasn't in charge of The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask. So I didn't know how rough The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask really was, and when Aonuma-san said, "There are still things to do here, aren't there", it didn't really throw me for a loop.

Iwata

Since you felt you'd really done your best, then, you also felt that you could keep going.

Iwamoto

Right. We thought, "What if we go at this using a different approach from the previous game?" And what we came up with was the use of  Phantom.

Iwata

A strong, invincible enemy.

Iwamoto

Yes. In the last game, there was a type of play where you could switch to playing as a Goron; we decided to build things around  controlling the Phantom at a relatively early stage. We'd been trying to think of a method for intuitively and easily controlling a subplayer for a while at that point.

Iwata

In other words, even before you were told, "There are still things to do here, aren't there", you'd had an idea that you really wanted to try.

Aonuma

That's why, when I said, "Let's do another one!", I got such a good response. Something in each of us sort of resonated with the other.

Iwamoto

No, well.... Was there something? (staring at each other)

Aonuma

You seem annoyed. (laughs)

All

(laugh)

Iwata

By the way - and I'm asking this because history does tend to repeat itself - was there an argument before this game, as there was with The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask?

Aonuma

I don't think either of us really tried to pick a fight... Did we?

Iwamoto

No. (laughs)

Aonuma

Only, Iwamoto-san directed The Legend of Zelda: Phantom Hourglass, but it wasn't a completely original work as far as he was concerned.

Iwamoto

That's true. We had The  Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker9 to start from, and we also did things like bringing the boat play over to Nintendo DS.

Iwata

I see. The Legend of Zelda: Phantom Hourglass felt quite original to me, but the boat parts are similar at their base levels, and they were expressed through the application of a method you created for The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker.

9. The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker" is an action-adventure game for GameCube, originally released in December of 2002.

Aonuma

Even as he applied it, he searched like mad for things he wanted to tinker with and improve from The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker.

Iwata

I see.

Aonuma

And the results really paid off for The Legend of Zelda: Phantom Hourglass. So for Spirit Tracks, I think he wanted to be free to make things he'd thought of on his own... Is that about right?

Iwamoto

Yes (laughs).

Aonuma

Then, among the characters who appear this time, we really focus on  Princess Zelda.

Iwata

Tetra showed up in the last game, didn't she.

Aonuma

Yes, but she doesn't in this one. Back when I heard the story's rough outline, I asked, "What? Why isn't Tetra making an appearance?" And he said, "Well... I don't like Tetra all that much."

All

(explosive laughter)

Aonuma

"What do you mean, you don't like her!?" "Don't cause me trouble, now. You mustn't say things like that..." That's about how the exchange went. (laughs)

Iwamoto

(laughs) But it wasn't that I didn't like her so much as that I was enthusiastic about characters in my own way. I was searching for something that hadn't been portrayed much, and there was Princess Zelda. At first, we hadn't settled on the subcharacter, and I discussed several things with the staff. Then we thought that, since they're adventuring together, it would be better to have it be a girl. But, you know, we couldn't have it be Tetra every time, so we started to consider introducing a new character. The thing is, though, it's "The Legend of Zelda". I thought it wouldn't be much fun if Princess Zelda didn't show up and if we brought in some unrelated princess instead, so, in the end, I asked for permission to use Princess Zelda.

Iwata

And what was Aonuma-san's answer?

Iwamoto

Um... "Whatever. Just do what you want."

Aonuma

What!? I didn't say it like that!

All

(explosive laughter)

Iwata

There, you see? There was an argument! (laughs)

Aonuma

I said, "Why don't you try it?" Politely. Didn't I?

Iwamoto

Did you?

Aonuma

Oh, quit making trouble for me... (laughs).

Play That's Only Possible on a Train
Iwata

...About  the train.

Aonuma

I knew that was coming. (laughs)

Iwamoto

We were sure you were going to ask that. (laughs)

Iwata

Does somebody like trains? Before I discovered video games, back when I was in middle school, I was absolutely crazy about trains. There were steam locomotives which ran in Hokkaido and were about to be decommissioned, and I went up there and tracked it down so I could get photos, and I collected model trains.... Things like that. Was there a railroad fan on the development staff?

Aonuma

No railroad fans.

Iwamoto

There weren't any at first.

Iwata

What do you mean, "at first"?

Iwamoto

Well, of course, while we were researching trains, some of the staff members got interested in them.

Aonuma

But at first, we didn't have a single railroad fan. At the beginning, since we were making a new The Legend of Zelda, I put out a proposal. I said, "This time, why don't we do away with the ship? Instead, let's have a big, "The Legend of Zelda -like" development, where you rush across the land of the wide world, headed to some place you've never been."

Iwata

So boats were out completely.

Aonuma

Right. No boats allowed (laughs). I think it's fun to have a new land becoming clearer and clearer right before your eyes, and have all sorts of different developments open up. It piques your sense of adventure, too. But then we had to think about what to use as a mode of transportation, in place of a boat, and at that point, I remembered a certain picture book.

Iwata

A picture book?

Aonuma

...Which I brought with me today...

Iwata

This book? "The Tracks Go On"?10

10. "The Tracks Go On" - A picture book published by Kin-no-hoshi sha Co., Ltd. in 2003. Story by Fumiko Takeshita, art by Mamoru Suzuki.

Aonuma

My son loved this book. When he was four or five, this was the book he'd bring me every night before bed. "Read it, Daddy, read it." In the book, the children keep on...

Iwata

(flipping through the book) ...Laying the tracks.

Aonuma

They come across all sorts of things, and, for example, when they find a mountain...

Iwata

...they dig a tunnel. When they come to a river, they build a bridge...

Aonuma

When they come to a road...

Iwata

They build a railroad crossing.

Aonuma

Up until there, it's an ordinary story.

Iwata

Yes.

Aonuma

But this is where it gets interesting. They come across a great big pond. And there are animals there, so they start wondering what to do. And what they do is...

Iwata

Oh, they go around it. To protect the animals.

Aonuma

I love that. (laughs) At that point - and since I read it to him every night, I'm sure my son knew the answer too, but I asked anyway - I always asked, "What do you think they'll do?"

Iwata

You like the way they detour around the pond instead of filling it in and going over it.

Aonuma

We'd get to that part, the "punch line", and then I'd put him to bed. That was the routine. Then, at the very end...

Iwata

They make a station.

Aonuma

Yes. And then a train comes. And everybody gets on it and goes home. That's the story. It's a very simple one, but the pioneering spirit, the kids building the railroad... Something about it seemed as though it would fit with The Legend of Zelda But I didn't tell the staff about this book.

Iwata

Even though you'd gotten the idea from it, you kept it secret.

Aonuma

That's right (laughs). I didn't tell them about the book, I only said, "Let's make it a train." And then, "Let's make it so that you can lay the tracks yourself." I brought it up, and we started from that experiment.

Iwata

I see.

Aonuma

But, at first, when I thought it up, I was very casual about the whole thing. I'd say "It would be fun if we could lay the tracks, wouldn't it!", things like that.

Iwamoto

We all said that, didn't we? Cheerfully. (laughs)

Aonuma

But that turned into a bit of a nightmare. Because, you know, the actual laying of the tracks is a real pain. In the book, it's over in a few pages, but as you'd expect, trying to do it in a game is tough. And I just casually tossed the proposal out there. It was pretty unwise of me...

Iwamoto

Well, but when the rest of us heard your idea, we thought it would be a lot of fun to lay the tracks any way you liked, to be able to travel anywhere at will.

Iwata

So at first, the staff members thought laying the tracks would be fun as well.

Iwamoto

Right. But the problem is that, even if people can lay the tracks anywhere they like, they won't know where to lay them. Then, to make the story work, there are places where you absolutely mustn't go, and other places where you really can't be at certain points in time. So we examined all sorts of different ways of playing. That went on for about a year.

Iwata

A whole year? But your development period was two years...

Iwamoto

We spent half of those two years on the railroad. And then, one day, Aonuma-san said, "Why don't we just drop the idea of laying the tracks?"

Iwata

At first, you started development from the angle of making it possible for players to lay the tracks anywhere they wanted, and then, one year later, Aonuma-san said, "Let's not"... How did the team handle that?

Iwamoto

Well...

Iwata

Did it feel as though a small tea table had been upended?

Iwamoto

Not... a small one. A pretty giant one (laughs).

Iwata

Well, you'd spent a year making it, and then it just went south on you. How did you fix it?

Aonuma

In this world, the tracks were there to begin with, but for some reason they've been erased. The player has to put them back to the way they were.

Iwamoto

In other words, somebody's erased these tracks, and Link brings them back together, little by little.

Aonuma

Then, we remade it that way, and when we took it to the monitor, lots of people said, "It's easy to understand and easy to play".

Iwata

If you're completely free, you don't know quite what to do. If your goal is clear, I'd guess that makes it a lot easier to play.

Aonuma

Yes. With the railroad tracks, there's a clear route, and people said it was really fun to work on steadily expanding them. So I thought, "Well, I had that part right." (laughs) But on the other hand, some people in-house felt that the freedom may be lost. But even if the destination is set, there's a freedom in the expansion.

Iwata

So there's an increase in a different sort of freedom.

Aonuma

That's right. Not only that, we stumbled on a new way to play. What if you're racing down the tracks, and something comes barreling towards you from the front?

Iwata

You've got to avoid it somehow.

Aonuma

Right. But all the railroad tracks are single lines. So you can't avoid it, you'll have to crash into it. And there are some trains that will definitely defeat you, if you run into them.

Iwata

So there's no way to run (laughs).

Aonuma

We made it possible to brake and back up, and to switch to another track when you come to a fork. You get through spots like that by using your head.

Iwata

I see. You can try backing up first, then switching to another track, and going on again once the enemy train's passed you.

Iwamoto

That's right. The tracks the other trains will be traveling on are marked on your map, so you can think, "If I wait here patiently, he'll go that way", and time your advances.

Aonuma

Play like that wouldn't be possible without a train.

Iwamoto

We felt a real pull from that sort of play, so we were very thorough when we made those areas of the game.

Customizing the Train
Iwata

Why did you subtitle it Daichi no Kiteki (Japanese meaning Train Whistle of the Wide World)"?

Aonuma

That comes from Director Iwamoto's name. Abbreviate "Daichi no Kiteki", and you get "Daiki".

Iwamoto

No, don't listen to him. That wasn't the reason. (laughs)

Iwata

(laughs)

Aonuma

We settled on the "Train Whistle" part very quickly. Of course it refers to the train's whistle, and then this game has one of The Legend of Zelda characteristic sound items in it, too.

Iwamoto

Players  can use a pan flute 11 this time.

11. Pan flute - Also called "pan pipes", they are said to be the world's oldest instrument. Made of grasses, bamboo or wood, they are found all over the world. However, at present, the ones from Romania and the Andes are particularly famous.

Aonuma

Since that's the case, we considered using "Pan Flute of the (something)" as a subtitle, but it would have been a bit long. Besides, you can use the pan flute, but it isn't a main item. Then, if you say "train", "train whistle" follows automatically, and a pan flute is also a "whistle", so we thought it might work for both.

Iwamoto

That's why we decided to use "Train Whistle", but we weren't sure what to do about the "something" in "Train Whistle of the (something)". That one gave us quite a headache.

Aonuma

Then, The Legend of Zelda: Spirit Tracks was decided as the subtitle for the North American edition, before we'd found ours. "Spirit" means "soul", so we took that and tried "Train Whistle of the Soul". But that made it sound kind of creepy, possibly haunted (laughs). We were making a pleasant game about running a train across wide-open spaces, and we just didn't think it fit.

Iwamoto

Finally, we asked for suggestions from the staff and wrote them all on a white board, and from those suggestions, we narrowed it down to "Train Whistle of the Wide World".

Aonuma

What finally decided it was the sound. When I said, "Train Whistle of the Wide World", it just rolled off the tongue.

Iwamoto

And it was easy.

Aonuma

Then, after we'd decided on "Train Whistle of the Wide World" amongst ourselves, we sent an e-mail to Miyamoto-san, asking him what he thought of it. And he just answered, "I think it's good".

Iwata

"I think it's good" is a pretty short answer. What did you think when you got that back?

Aonuma

It really did feel like he was brushing us off. So we asked him again, "Are you sure you're taking this seriously?", and he said, "Of course I am. My first impression was that it was good, so I said 'I think it's good'!" (laughs).

Iwata

And if something's bad, he does say it's bad (laughs).

Aonuma

Absolutely. When something's bad, he really lets you know about it (laughs).

Iwata

When something's no good, there are always lots of reasons why it's no good, but when it is good, you don't really need reasons, you know. Still, not having him say anything must have made you a bit nervous.

Aonuma

It did that (laughs). Miyamoto-san was probably busy with the New Super Mario Bros. Wii12.

12. New Super Mario Bros. Wii - An action game for Wii released on November, 2009.

Iwata

And you think he might have been distracted? (laughs)

Aonuma

But anyway, that's how we decided on "Train Whistle of the Wide World", and we took to it very quickly. It never felt strange to us.

Iwamoto

We got used to it, yes. And that's not all; the pan flute is called "Whistle of the Wide World", too (Spirit Flute in the US version.)

Iwata

I see. "Whistle of the Wide World".

Aonuma

Not only that, the areas where action takes place are all called "Wide World of the Something", too, so the place where the ocean is is called "Wide World of the Ocean".

Iwata

"Wide World of the Ocean"...?

Aonuma

"Wide World", even though it's ocean (laughs).

Iwamoto

They told us that "Wide World of the Ocean" was weird, no matter how you look at it, but we wanted all the names to match.

(Editor's note: In the North American version the Wide Worlds are called 'Realms' as in 'Ocean Realm')

Iwata

By the way, about the "Whistle of the Wide World" pan flute... Why is it that every The Legend of Zelda game has some sort of sound item in it? I've wondered about it for years. Is it because the sound staff is in on making the puzzles, too?

Iwamoto

There isn't a sound item in every game. There wasn't one in the last one.

Iwata

Oh, that's right. There was one in The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina and in The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker, but I suppose there isn't always something.

Aonuma

As you'd expect, when the sound team takes a firm line and tells us, "We want to try doing this this time", we often do use that as our jumping-off point. So I think that they do feel as though, since it's The Legend of Zelda", we should use some sort of sound item. In this case, the pan flute was brought up fairly early in the game. Then, too, the mike input capabilities are featured pretty prominently in this game, so the two concepts meshed together neatly.

Iwata

There are a lot of places that use the mic, aren't there.

Aonuma

Yes. But if we worked the players too hard, they'd run out of breath.

Iwamoto

Right, please blow gently. (laughs)

Iwata

You don't need to blow hard at all, do you.

Aonuma

No. Then, the sound team worked very hard this time, and there are all sorts of whistle sounds for them to enjoy.

Iwata

What do you mean, all sorts of whistle sounds?

Aonuma

This game also supports tag mode, too. It's made so that you can collect parts for the train.

Iwamoto

In the previous game, we had players collect parts for the ship. You'd wind up with parts you didn't need, and you could exchange those for parts that you hadn't managed to get.

Aonuma

It's a little different this time, though. There are "treasures", and you can collect many different types. Once you've accumulated a set number of a certain sort of treasure, you can exchange those for your train part. Not only that, the things you collect vary from player to player.

Iwamoto

The treasures show up randomly. It's different for every person.

Aonuma

They'll collect most of the things which it's easy for them to collect, but...

Iwata

By using the tag mode of Nintendo DS, or "passing transmissions", they can collect more effectively.

Aonuma

That's it. This train is split into four sections: the train itself, the gun battery, and then the passenger cars and freight cars. You can customize all of them. There are all sorts of different variations to play around with, and one of them is pretty incredible.

Iwamoto

Yeah, that one really is something else. (laughs)

Aonuma

It's really startling. You can customize it into something which makes you think "...This is a train!? No way..." (laughs)

Iwata

And so, the sound of the whistle changes too. (laughs)

Aonuma

Yes it does. The normal train whistle is the usual, low-pitched one, but they'll get to hear some very interesting whistles, too.

Iwamoto

...Some of which will make them think, "This is a whistle? No way..." (laughs)

Aonuma

Well, you can't really call it a train any more, so it doesn't matter if it doesn't sound like a whistle. (laughs) Anyway, that's how much fun you can have with it, so we definitely want them to use tag mode.

When You Hear 'That Legend of Zelda Sound'
Iwata

By the way, in  The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess interview on the "Iwata Asks - Wii Project", the words "essence of The Legend of Zelda" came up quite a lot. How much did the Nintendo DS The Legend of Zelda team talk about The Legend of Zelda theory?

Iwamoto

Well, frankly, not much.

Iwata

But this is very The Legend of Zelda-like. It has that feel to it. Why do you suppose it is that a team can talk about that a lot when they make it, or not talk about it much at all when they make it, and both products turn out to be The Legend of Zelda-like?

Aonuma

It is odd, isn't it.

Iwamoto

But I did think that I didn't want to get too caught up in making it "The Legend of Zelda-like". There was even an argument about how a train didn't really seem to fit with "The Legend of Zelda".

Iwata

Ah, yes, I did hear a little about that. You mean that debate, the one about whether or not it was really all right to have a train in The Legend of Zelda.

Iwamoto

Then people were wondering whether we shouldn't change the train to something else. Still, we talked to the designer, and to all sorts of people, and we ultimately decided to stick with the train. In the first place, everybody has their own idea of what The Legend of Zelda is supposed to be like.

Iwata

Iwamoto-san, if you absolutely had to say what The Legend of Zelda is like, what would you say?

Iwamoto

I wonder...

Aonuma

That's a hard one.

Iwamoto

It really is.

Iwata

Well, I suppose if one could put it into words that easily, there'd be no need for everyone to argue on and on about what's "The Legend of Zelda-like" and what isn't.

Iwamoto

True. Besides, there are some things we've managed to avoid, in a good way, that we might not be able to avoid any more if we normalized it too much.

Aonuma

Is it all right if the Producer takes a stab at it, then? (laughs)

Iwata

Of course. Mr. Producer, take the floor. (laughs)

Aonuma

Although this isn't an original comment...

Iwata

Not original? Well, at least you're honest (laughs).

Aonuma

Ten years or so ago, the "Hobo Nikkan Itoi Shinbun (Almost Daily Itoi Newspaper)" ran an interview with Miyamoto-san, after he'd made "Ocarina of Time". In that interview, there was a bit that made me think, "Oh, so that's what it was".

Iwata

And you didn't know about the article back when it first came out?

Aonuma

I'd probably read it, but at the time I just thought, "Huh..." (laughs) It's probably because I wasn't directly involved. I read it just after finishing the The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time job, and at the time, I had no idea I'd keep making The Legend of Zelda. Only, I was asked in an interview about the period when I was working on The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time; it had been a while, and I'd forgotten quite a bit, so I reread the article as a sort of review. And then, among the things Miyamoto-san had said, there was something that really made an impression on me.

Iwata

What was that?

Aonuma

He said, " I want people to see that there are no games that compare to this one" (interview in Japanese). The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time was a game where we did things that others would never think to try.

Iwata

That's true. Hearing that they tried to make The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time a game with such an overwhelming presence that no other game could compare, and that they gave it their very best, is incredibly convincing.

Aonuma

That's why we made it so detailed. If we didn't do that much, I thought, the end product wouldn't be really overwhelming, something other people wouldn't do. This already came up earlier, but even with the railroad, we experimented with a lot of things at first. Honestly, if somebody had said, at the beginning, "That's just a pain; let's not bother with it", I wouldn't have been surprised. But doing things simply because you don't know whether or not they'll work until you try them... I think that in itself is...

Iwata

'A thoroughness that others don't even think to attempt', you mean.

Aonuma

Yes, that's it. This time, we were trying for a game that used trains in a way no other game had used them before. So, as Iwamoto-san said before, we had some people asking 'A train in The Legend of Zelda? Are you sure?' But, as far as I'm concerned, trains are just fine. I felt as though, if the train became something that couldn't be portrayed by anything else, then that would be The Legend of Zelda.

Iwata

I see.

Aonuma

By the way, Iwata-san, what do you think The Legend of Zelda is?

Iwata

Well, to me... When I'm playing, and I think "Is it even possible to solve this puzzle?", and it's really giving me trouble, but then something gives me a brainstorm and I solve it, and " that The Legend of Zelda sound" plays... (laughs) When I hear that "You've solved the puzzle" sound, even though I had to work so hard on it, it makes me want to work on the next one right away. To me, that's the essence of The Legend of Zelda.

Aonuma

I think it's the same for us, too.

Iwamoto

Yes, it is.

Iwata

I see. (laughs) When you're developing it, and you're working so hard on it, and worrying over it, and you finally find the perfect way to do something, you hear that sound in your head.

Aonuma

Oh, we do. (laughs)

Iwamoto

It does. (laughs)

Aonuma

When things are really tough, and we come up with an answer right at the last minute, and we decide, "Hey, this is pretty good!", then we all...

Iwata

...hear that sound in our heads. (laughs)

All

(laugh)

Iwata

You know, that "The Legend of Zelda sound" might have left its mark in gaming history.

Aonuma

It sticks in your head.

Iwata

It really does.

Aonuma

We're actually changing it, little by little, but we can't change it too much. If we changed it drastically, it would turn into something completely different, so...

Iwata

No, you absolutely mustn't change that. (laughs) Not that sound, and not the one that plays  when you've opened a treasure chest and gotten something good.

Aonuma

You're right, we really can't change those. They're like a venerable restaurant's secret sauce (laugh). ...And we've inherited them.

Iwamoto

We're all careful to protect traditions like those. Nobody's ever suggested trying to change them. I think everybody understands that those are The Legend of Zelda.

Iwata

You know, though, it's funny that the action of making The Legend of Zelda itself is a lot like solving the puzzles in The Legend of Zelda.

Aonuma

I thought it was pretty good, if I do say so myself. (laughs)

Iwamoto

Did you hear that sound inside your head?

Aonuma

Yes. (laughs)

New Puzzles and Drama
Aonuma

In Spirit Tracks, I think the staff properly absorbed their own definitions of what The Legend of Zelda is, and created new ways of playing while protecting past traditions.

Iwamoto

It's the same with the subplayer's puzzles.

Aonuma

The person who thought up the subplayer puzzles was another former programmer, like Director Iwamoto. The puzzles that planner thought up are games that make you use different parts of your brain than usual.

Iwata

At EAD, there are lots of planners who came from Design - such as Miyamoto-san, Tezuka-san, and you, Aonuma-san - and relatively few people from Programming, aren't there. Do you think the puzzles are different from the usual ones precisely because someone from Programming thought them up?

Aonuma

I do. They're clearly different. And, when I tried them, I felt, "Oh, I see! I never would have thought of this!" many, many times.

Iwata

And I think, once the people playing the game have solved those, they'll be able to think, "Hey, check it out! How smart am I, huh!?" That's one of the best parts about the puzzles in The Legend of Zelda.

Aonuma

But there was one place that I just could not manage to solve. We were still in development, so I thought, "It's probably a bug", and I went to the planner and said, "This isn't solvable, is it." And he said, coolly, "No, it is." (laughs)

Iwata

I bet that was pretty mortifying. (laughs)

Aonuma

So, during the final half, things sort of turned into a battle of wits between the planner and myself. (laughs) I said, "I am absolutely going to solve this!"

Iwata

That's probably exactly what he wanted. (laughs)

Aonuma

But they really do make you use your head in different ways. I was a Liberal Arts man, so maybe I feel it more strongly because of that. In any case, I think you can look forward to puzzles the likes of which you've never seen.

Iwata

This time, they've added Science puzzles, you mean.

Aonuma

Right. (laughs)

Iwata

Well now, is there anything you feel you just have to tell the players about The Legend of Zelda: Spirit Tracks?

Aonuma

Quite a lot of women played the previous game, The Legend of Zelda: Phantom Hourglass...

Iwata

And actually, if you look at the registration on Club Nintendo, although The Legend of Zelda series has traditionally had more of a male audience, on the Nintendo DS, it seems as though lots of women are also enjoying it.

Aonuma

In fact, my wife's played it all the way through to the end. She doesn't play video games very much, but even so, she plugged away at it all by herself, all the way through. So I'd really like it if women would play this game too. When I took the game to have it play tested, I asked for "people who really weren't acquainted with The Legend of Zelda", and they had a female staff member from the same department play it. And she wrote in her report, "I didn't know that playing The Legend of Zelda could give you such a sense of achievement. There were times when it made me want to say ‘All right! I did it!'." Of course, she might have been saying some of it out of consideration for the staff, but still.

Iwata

One of The Legend of Zelda software's biggest features is that great sense of achievement, and she had actually played the game when she said that; I really don't think she was just being nice.

Aonuma

That's true. She also said that, although the puzzles were a bit hard, even when she couldn't solve one on the first try, she didn't feel averse to taking another shot at it. She wrote that in her report as well. Since that's exactly what The Legend of Zelda is trying for, I thought I'd really like women to try playing this game as well. Although I guess trains do have a bit of a little-boy feel about them...

Iwamoto

But I hear there are a lot of female railroad fans out there.

Aonuma

Are there? Well, that's all right, then. (laughs)

All

(laugh)

Iwata

What about you, Iwamoto-san?

Iwamoto

I mentioned this a little while ago, too, but I think there are some people who may feel that trains and The Legend of Zelda don't really mix. If you try it, though, you'll see that it really is The Legend of Zelda-like.

Iwata

It has the essence of The Legend of Zelda.

Iwamoto

Yes. I think, at this point, the game couldn't exist without that train. Also, when playing The Legend of Zelda, people tend to clear one dungeon and rush straight on to the next one, playing as though speed were the important thing. I'd like them to slow down a bit; don't rush straight through it. Take detours and side roads while you play.

Iwata

By taking detours, they'll actually be able to enjoy a denser, richer The Legend of Zelda.

Iwamoto

That's right. By using the train to move around, the world just keeps expanding; they can enjoy all sorts of events in all sorts of places, and get to know more and more about that world.

Aonuma

Actually, they'll get to see various dramatic developments at those events. We've also put in a lot of elements for grownups, so I think women will be able to enjoy the game for that reason, too. Can I say one more thing?

Iwata

Sure, go ahead.

Aonuma

In the last game, we used Nintendo Wi-Fi Connection and made a complete strategy game which you played one-on-one. But then lots of players told us, "It's too hard". I actually battled everybody else, too, and I didn't win much either.

Iwata

Even the producer couldn't win? (laughs)

Aonuma

The mechanics of the game were incredibly fun, but it really was too hard. So this time, we made things a bit more action-oriented and created something people can really get excited about playing.

Iwata

This time they'll be able to play with the people around them, right?

Aonuma

That's right. It uses local wireless, and up to four people can play.

Iwamoto

If one person has the game card, the other players can play via download.

Aonuma

So, whenever people get together, like at New Year's, they can download it and just have fun.

Iwamoto

Basically, it's a game where everybody tries to get the Force to win, but with this particular concept, as with "Mario Kart", they can get all hyper and excited as a group. So we put in lot of things where you can make a comeback with one shot, or get an item and turn the tables completely.

Aonuma

For example, the strongest Phantom shows up, and even as you're running around trying to get away from him, you can actually lure him towards you, and send him at one of your friends...

Iwata

So you send him at each other and intercept each other to get the Force.

Aonuma

That's it. (laughs) We've let them have their heads a bit more this time, and they can get all hyper and really have fun when they play, so I'd like them to play it with their friends.

Iwata

In other words, when a few people with Nintendo DS system's get together, they've now got one more way to have fun. By the way, Aonuma-san, doesn't this game have a really great feel to it, too?

Aonuma

Yes. It feels as though we did the absolute best we could possibly do in that short production period. Even though we used up the first year on the railroad issue... I feel as though people are going to talk about how, for a producer, I've got no talent for planning...

Iwata

But it's because you worked so hard during that year that it took the shape it has now.

Aonuma

I do think so. But this experience showed me very, very clearly that once you start a train to move, it's incredibly hard to stop it. (laugh)

All

(laugh)

Wii Motion Plus Inspires New Controls: [[SS -]] (2010)
This 2010 Interview on the topic of SS - features Satoru Iwata, Eiji Aonuma, Hidemaro Fujibayashi, Ryuji Kobayashi, and Ryo Tanaka.

Starting with a Detour
Iwata

Everyone, thank you for gathering today.

Everyone

It's a pleasure.

Iwata

So you're finally…

Aonuma

Yes. (laughs)

Iwata

You're reaching the end?

Aonuma

Yes. We truly are nearing the end now.

Iwata

Are you a little sad?

Aonuma

(laughs) Yes. When it is completely finished, I suppose I really will be sad. But it won't be long before I feel like making something again. (laughs)

Iwata

(laughs) We're here to talk about The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword.

Aonuma

Yes.

Iwata

First, we made the Wii MotionPlus1 accessory, then we built it in to the Wii Remote controller in the form of the Wii Remote Plus2 controller, so one challenge this time was seeing how using that would change a Zelda game.

Aonuma

Yes, that's right.1. Wii MotionPlus: An accessory with a motion sensor for connection to the Wii Remote controller.

2. Wii Remote Plus: An enhanced version of the Wii Remote controller with the Wii MotionPlus accessory built in. Released October 2010.

Iwata

I mainly want to ask about that today, but first, I would like each of you to introduce yourself, including what you worked on with regard to this game. Aonuma-san, would you start?

Aonuma

I'm Aonuma, the producer. There have been all kinds of twists and turns since development began almost five years ago. Until completion of The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword, I talked with Director Fujibayashi about how we could take the project in a good direction, backed up the staff, and consulted with Miyamoto-san.

Iwata

You say that there were twists and turns, but I heard there were few detours this time compared to the last game The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess3.3. The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess: An action adventure game released for the Nintendo GameCube and Wii on November 2006.

Aonuma

Well…

Iwata

You can't say there weren't any? (laughs)

Aonuma

Yes. (laughs) I can't say there weren't any at all. I thought I would talk about that today.

Iwata

My impression is that you were able to articulately pack in a lot of elements the team had worked on in the game, that it has turned out to have an incredibly high concentration of ideas compared to other The Legend of Zelda games.

Aonuma

That's true. We took a detour along the way, but compared to previous Zelda games, we were able to pack in so many kinds of play that it practically bears no comparison.

Fujibayashi

I'm Fujibayashi, the director. I was in charge of overall aspects of the game, from the barebones of gameplay to the script. Every time we made something using Wii MotionPlus, I showed it to Miyamoto-san, Tezuka-san, or Aonuma-san and heard their opinions, remaking it until they said it was good.

Iwata

Before this, you worked on The Legend of Zelda: Phantom Hourglass4, right?

Fujibayashi

Yes, I participated as the Assistant Director.4. The Legend of Zelda: Phantom Hourglass: A pen action-adventure game released in June 2007 as the first game in The Legend of Zelda series for the Nintendo DS system.

Iwata

Now that you've experienced making The Legend of Zelda for both a handheld and a home console, what was different?

Fujibayashi

The amount of work involved. With a home console, making corrections is difficult.

Iwata

So many people work on a home console game that once instructions go out, it's hard to make changes later on.

Fujibayashi

That's right. That was the biggest thing. But before we began this game for the Wii console, since it was my first time working on a home console game, I was under a lot of pressure. But once we made it, I realized it didn't change much.

Iwata

You mean that it felt like a Zelda game?

Fujibayashi

Correct, in the way that I was making a Zelda game as the director.

Kobayashi

I'm Kobayashi, the design director. All kinds of enemies and residents appear this time. Each section had a leader for coordinating those, and I oversaw them.

Iwata

Have you worked on The Legend of Zelda for a long time?

Kobayashi

About my fifth year at Nintendo, I worked on the series for the first time as a designer in charge of enemies for The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker5 on the Nintendo GameCube system. This was my second Legend of Zelda game.

Iwata

So it had been awhile.

Kobayashi

Yes, that's right.5. The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker: An action-adventure game released for the Nintendo GameCube system in March 2003.

Tanaka

I'm Tanaka. I was in charge of coordinating the UI (user interface) section. Kobayashi-san mentioned how there were various leaders, and I was one of them.

Iwata

It is unusual for someone from the UI section, such as you, to appear here the first round of interviews. I think you are here because The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword uses Wii MotionPlus.

Tanaka

I think so. We gave a lot of consideration to how we should reflect the new Wii MotionPlus controls on the screen and to how we could make them easy for the players to understand.

Iwata

Aonuma-san, how did development of The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword begin?

Aonuma

After we finished The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess, we began work on the new game in the series. After awhile Fujibayashi-san had finished making The Legend of Zelda: Phantom Hourglass, and he showed us a planning document saying he wanted to make it. We had him be director and discussed something that would use Wii MotionPlus, which was developed right around that time, so players could freely operate the game. For about half a year after that, I have to say the mood was very nasty! (laughs)

Iwata

I heard. (laughs)

Fujibayashi

We tried a bunch of things for Wii MotionPlus, but it was really quirky.

Iwata

Wii MotionPlus is an incredibly sharp device, but a little distinctive. It's like an unruly horse.

Aonuma

Yes, exactly. No matter what we did, we couldn't tame it. Then Wii Sports Resort6 came out as the first game for Wii MotionPlus.

Iwata

That's right.6. Wii Sports Resort: A sports game released in July 2009. It was the first game for Wii MotionPlus. It features 12 leisure sports.

Aonuma

We played that and realized all you could do with it. Wii Sports Resort has all kinds of games like Swordplay and Frisbee® and you can play each one as its own separate game, but in The Legend of Zelda, you play everything on the same field.

Fujibayashi

That's right. You may be fighting with your sword and the next instant use the Clawshot or shoot an arrow or throw a bomb, so it was really difficult to make the game so you could use Wii MotionPlus to do those things smoothly all on the same field.

Aonuma

So I proposed to the staff to not use Wii Motion Plus afterall.

Iwata

You gave up once.

Aonuma

Yes. Then we started making a Legend of Zelda game that you would play using the original Wii Remote and Nunchuk. But then I fell under intense pressure from some other producers, who said, "Aonuma-san, why aren't you using Wii MotionPlus?!" (laughs)

Iwata

They were like, "Don't run away from it!" (laughs)

Aonuma

Exactly. (laughs) So I was like, "We got to do it!" I gathered the staff and we puzzled over how we could make it work. As a result, Kobayashi-san and those guys had a hard time. (laughs)

Kobayashi

Yes. (laughs)

Iwata

In what way?

Kobayashi

As Aonuma-san just mentioned, we had proceeded with a plan that didn't involve using Wii MotionPlus. We had already made something basic using button controls to fight, and we had taken development to where we were going to start cranking out a bunch of variations. But then Aonuma-san suddenly called us in.

Aonuma

I'm SO sorry about that. (laughs)

Kobayashi

We were like, "Aw, here it comes…" (laughs) We didn't have any existing knowledge of how it worked, so we weren't even at the starting point because we had to learn how it worked!

Iwata

So the detour started right at the beginning of development! (laughs)

Aonuma

Yes. And it was a huge one!

"Have it Stop."
Iwata

What obstacles appeared in making a game for Wii MotionPlus?

Kobayashi

In Wii Sports Resort, we use Mii characters, so making them is simple, but Link has a realistic figure.

Iwata

And he's equipped with items like a shield.

Kobayashi

That's right. And Swordplay in Wii Sports Resort uses sticks, so whichever way you swing, as long as the trajectory is right, no problem. But Link is holding a sword. You can't have him flap an enemy with the flat of his blade.

Iwata

Oh, I see. If the edge isn't facing the direction you swing, handsome Link would look rather foolish.

Aonuma

Exactly. He has to look cool when he swings his sword. He can't just have a sword stuck to his hand and simply move it. So we tried all kinds of things for that at first.

Kobayashi

Yes, we tried many things many times.

Fujibayashi

We really studied the skeletal structure of a person's skeletal structure.

Aonuma

At first we were too serious about faithfully representing human movement. Link still didn't look that cool, so we decided it was necessary to fake some parts.

Iwata

In other words, even if his movement isn't perfectly realistic in some ways, your brain smoothes over it.

Aonuma

That's right. Then Link's movement seemed more natural that way and we knew swordplay would work out. What's more, we were able to swing the sword in the direction we wanted and got to where we could think, "Which direction shall I swing from?" when fighting an enemy. But there's a really tough boss named Ghirahim who can read your movements.

Iwata

What he actually does is determine which direction he can be hit from.

Aonuma

Yes. Ghirahim fights barehanded. You'll think, "All right, I'll strike at him from this angle," but he expects that and  stops Link's sword with his hands.

Iwata

At Nintendo 3DS Conference 20117, Miyamoto-san said he struggled with that.7. Nintendo 3DS Conference 2011: A Nintendo 3DS presentation held in Japan on September 13, 2011.

Aonuma

That's right. Miyamoto-san kept saying, "You can't beat this guy!" (laughs)

Iwata

As a player, he was steamed. (laughs)

Aonuma

Yes. Well, he complained more than getting mad! (laughs) But he didn't tell us to scrap it, so I think he liked something about it. He said that he wanted us to make the way to win more instinctive, though.

Iwata

You can beat him by tricking him.

Aonuma

Right, you can. Ghirahim moves his hands wherever Link's sword is, so you trick him. I can't go in to it in detail, but I would like for people to fight him thinking how you can trick him with your attacks.

Speaking of sword movements, before all this there was an idea about being able to stop the sword mid-air

Iwata

You mean the sword is something you use to swing to defeat enemies, but now you're able to hold it still mid-air, and use it for other things. Who's idea was it that you could be able to hold the sword still?

Aonuma

Miyamoto-san, right?

Fujibayashi

I remember it clearly. All of a sudden, in the middle of the night, Miyamoto-san called us in and said, "Have it stop." I was like, "Have what stop?" and he said, "The sword." When I first heard "stop," I didn't think it was possible, but a moment later, I understood and was like, "Stop…? Oh, stop… I get it!"

And there was more to that late-night conversation. After he suggested stopping the sword, he said, "Then you raise up the Wii Remote and while you're in that pose, energy builds up, and then you release a sword beam."

Iwata

Stopping the sword led to the sword beam?

Fujibayashi

Yes. At first, the two ideas were separate in Miyamoto-san's head, but I could tell as I listened that when he suggested stopping the sword, then he hit on the sword beam, and the two joined together at that moment.

Iwata

The ideas combined right then and there.

Aonuma

And his face lit up, right? (laughs)

Fujibayashi

He made a face like, "Pretty good, huh?" (laughs)

Everyone

(laughs)

Iwata

It's a perfect example of one idea solving multiple problems.

Aonuma

Yes. And once we adopted the sword beam, something like a ring would shoot out, making clearly visible which direction you had swung.

Iwata

Ah, I see.

Aonuma

And once we could hold the sword up high, we hit on the title of The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword.

Iwata

"Skyward" because you hold it up toward the sky, but I hear that there is a deeper meaning to it as well.

Aonuma

That's right. From what I heard from the NOA (Nintendo of America) localization team, the word "ward" also means to protect and guard something, so "skyward" can also mean "protector of the sky", and "one who is protected by the sky".

Iwata

That's very interesting. Using Wii MotionPlus, a device that can detect rapid movements to use it for fast-moving gameplay is one thing. I thought the person who thought up of stopping the sword as a form of play was incredible, and it was Miyamoto-san who suggested it.

Fujibayashi

Yes.

Iwata

That's a bit galling, I suppose. (laughs)

Fujibayashi, Kobayashi and Tanaka

Oh, yes.

Aonuma

Argh… I wish I thought of it!

Everyone

(laughs)

Iwata

Stopping the sword was revolutionary this time, but also important was freeing up the A Button.

Aonuma

Yes, that's right. (laughs)

Iwata

Up till now in the series, swinging the sword with the A Button was a matter of course, but using Wii MotionPlus frees up the A Button—an important point this time.

Aonuma

Yes, you can swing the sword without pressing the A Button.

Iwata

How did you decide to make use of the A Button then?

Fujibayashi

Every time we make a new Zelda game, Miyamoto-san assigns certain tasks, like "Add a new action." I wasn't involved with development, but for example, in The Legend of Zelda: Link's Awakening8, you jump with a feather.

Iwata

Yes.

Fujibayashi

In The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past9, you can pick up grass. So adding a new action was a theme whenever we made a new Zelda game. This time, we wanted to put in something before Miyamoto-san said anything and put in the dash action.8. The Legend of Zelda: Link's Awakening: The first game in The Legend of Zelda series for the Game Boy system released in August 1993. In December 1998, the remake The Legend of Zelda: Link's Awakening DX was released for the Game Boy Color system.

9. The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past: An action-adventure game released for the Super Famicom system in April 1992.

Iwata

You assigned that to the A Button.

Fujibayashi

That's right. Link could dash before, but if he ran into a wall or other obstacle, he would stop on a dime.

Iwata

In The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past, if you rammed into a tree or house, it would knock you down.

Fujibayashi

Yes, and that interrupts the flow of the game. For that reason, I had a strong desire to put in some kind of action so that whatever you hit, it reacts and won't kill your speed. Thus, we made an Link able to  dash up.

Aonuma

As a result, since you're not using the A Button as you usually would for your sword, after you select an item with the B Button, you can smoothly perform the action of using the A Button to dash up.

Iwata

When you see videos of Link  dashing up and over an enemy to move behind him, it feels great.

Aonuma

And you can scurry up a small cliff or steep slope.

Fujibayashi

But once your energy runs out, Link runs out of breath. His shoulders heave and he wheezes. (laughs)

Iwata

(laughs)

Selecting Items Without Looking at the Screen
Iwata

Wii MotionPlus allows you complete control over Link's sword, and you can stop that sword in mid-swing, fire a sword beam, and dash up using the A Button, but another big point is the big change from previous games in the UI for choosing an item.

Aonuma

That's right. As alluded to earlier, in The Legend of Zelda games you have to be able to switch items in a flash.

Iwata

Yes.

Aonuma

Until now, you had to open the item screen and choose the Bow or a bomb, disrupting the flow of the game. And that didn't seem right even to me. But the director Fujibayashi-san and Tanaka-san in charge of UI totally resolved that big problem.

Iwata

Fujibayashi-san, how did you do that?

Fujibayashi

We were using Wii MotionPlus, so I wanted to do something revolutionary even for switching items, and what I came up with was quickly switching items without having to look at an item screen.

Iwata

Item selection without looking at the screen. That truly is revolutionary.

Fujibayashi

Yes. I thought it might be possible with Wii MotionPlus, so after I had a rough idea of it, I talked to Tanaka-san and asked for the impossible. I explained it using gestures, like, "If you do this, then this happens." (laughs)

Iwata

After he laid that on you, Tanaka-san, how did you approach it?

Tanaka

When using the Wii Remote, the most common solution is to choose items with the pointer. But this time, we wanted to select items without using the pointer.

Iwata

That way you make use of Wii MotionPlus's features.

Tanaka

That's right. We tested arranging the items on the screen in a circle, and you twist the Wii Remote Plus like a rotary switch to select an item.

Iwata

You thought of selecting items the way you used to turn a dial to select television channels.

Tanaka

Exactly. But when we tried it out, you can only turn your wrist about 120 degrees, so when choosing one item from about eight, you end up selecting the wrong one a lot. Then we realized that turning your wrist wasn't the right way to go and tried tilting the Wii Remote Plus with your arm.

Fujibayashi

That way, even if you don't look at the screen,  the items are at certain angles and you can select them by tilting the Wii Remote Plus. As you play, you remember that, for example, the bow is at the top and your bombs are on the right.

Tanaka

For example, you remember with your body that if you tilt down, you switch to the Slingshot.

Iwata

So you can do it without looking at the screen. I think it was around the time you had just made that system, I remember very well that Miyamoto-san really bragged about it. He said, "Once you get used to it, you can select items with unprecedented speed and without interrupting the flow of the game. It's quite unique."

Fujibayashi

That was the first time Miyamoto-san ever praised me. (laughs)

Aonuma

Huh? The very first time? (laughs)

Fujibayashi

I'd never had that experience before, so I was overjoyed.

Tanaka

Yes. We were giving each other high-fives.

Iwata

(laughs)

Tanaka

That's how happy we were. We were like, "We finally did it!"

Iwata

He even mentioned it to me before it was even finished, so it must have really struck a chord with him.

Aonuma

I suppose so.

Iwata

Tanaka-san, looking back at it now, what struck you the most?

Tanaka

Hmm, it's difficult to pinpoint one thing, but what made me think it went well in the end was something I noticed when we were having game testers look at it. Many playing for the first time thought the remote was for pointing at the screen.

Iwata

They didn't notice that you controlled it by tilting the Wii Remote Plus.

Tanaka

That's right. Using it like a pointer is second nature for the Wii console, so everyone has that preconceived notion. But even if you try to point, you can select items. When that went well, I thought, "Oh, this is good!"

Iwata

The pointing movement syncs with the Wii Remote Plus controller's tilt. So once you get used to it, you realize that it doesn't have to be pointed at the screen all the time, which makes it much easier to play.

Aonuma

Exactly. Another important point is how when the finger icon appears on the item selection screen, there's a string attached to it.

Fujibayashi

That was quite an invention, if I do say so myself. (laughs)

Aonuma

Yes. There's a string attached to the icon, so even if you make a big movement with the Wii Remote Plus, it moves in a circle, but no further.

Fujibayashi

In other words, even if you the Wii Remote Plus is swung all the way out, the finger icon never leaves the screen.

Iwata

Oh, I see.

Aonuma

The first time I saw that, I thought, "What's with this unsightly string!" (laughs) But when I actually tried it out, it felt comfortable. When first seeing screenshots of that string, many people may feel like something is off, but once they play it, I hope they'll realize how comfortable it feels.

Iwata

The items are much more comfortable to choose. You can use familiar items from the series as well as new ones.

Fujibayashi

Take the good old Slingshot and Bow. Until now the sights jumped around and you had to point the Wii Remote to the screen all the time, but not this time.

Aonuma

That's right. You don't use the pointer. You hold the Wii Remote Plus like a bow and use the sites to take aim, so it doesn't waver. That way, when you accurately aim at something far away, it feels incredibly comfortable.

Tanaka

When it comes to the bombs,  if you swing the Wii Remote Plus from above, you throw one, but if you swing it from below, you roll it. And you can put a spin on them.

Iwata

You can spin the bombs?

Tanaka

Yes.

Aonuma

But getting it in the UI was pretty hard, because the arrow needs to bend so sharply on the screen.

Tanaka

That's true. The bomb will curve in the direction you twist the Wii Remote, so there's an arrow on the ground showing that direction.

Aonuma

Originally, you bought bombs at shops or picked them from Bomb Flowers growing from the ground, and then you used them,  but this time, you can pick them from a Bomb Flower and put them in a bag.

Iwata

You can gather bombs?

Aonuma

Yes. (laughs) At first, I thought, "Huh?! Is that all right?!" but when I actually did it, it felt incredibly natural. I've been involved with The Legend of Zelda games for a long time, so again I'm frustrated that I never hit on that idea before.

Iwata

(laughs)

Fujibayashi

When you store them, they're shooting off sparks. (laughs)

Iwata

They don't explode in your bag? (laughs)

Kobayashi

No. The fire goes out once they're in your bag.

Everyone

(laughs)

Rocket Fists Give Birth to an Ancient Civilization
Iwata

Could you introduce us to some of the new items that appear this time?

Aonuma

One is the flying  Hook Beetle in the form of the insect it's named after.

Iwata

Could we say it's a bug robot?

Aonuma

Yes, we call it that. At first, it was a boomerang.

Iwata

Huh? A boomerang turned into a beetle?

Aonuma

Yes. (laughs)

Fujibayashi

At first, a boomerang would spin through the air, and they fly out.

Aonuma

We thought it might fun if you could tilt the Wii Remote Plus so it flew however you wanted and tried out some things, but then we started talking about how that simply wasn't much like a boomerang. (laughs)

Iwata

I'd say not. (laughs)

Aonuma

And it had a camera. We wanted to think of an item that would fit better with that feature and came up with rocket fists. (laughs)(Editor's note: a rocket fist was something commonly seen in giant robot cartoons in the 1970's. Literally the fist with rockets attached would fly off of the hero robot's arm to punch and destroy distant evil enemies.)

Iwata

The boomerang suddenly became a rocket fist? (laughs)

Kobayashi

Yes. (laughs) At that time, it could also grab things, so we thought it would be cool if something like a hand were flying around.

Fujibayashi

In the end, it turned into a beetle. The way it looks like it flies out from your arm is leftover from the rocket fist.

Iwata

Got it. (laughs)

Fujibayashi

Beetle can fly quite some distance from Link, and we thought that might cause some trouble.

Iwata

It could have a markedly negative effect on gameplay.

Fujibayashi

Exactly. Players would be able to go to places and see things that they shouldn't yet. We realized that right away.

Kobayashi

The landform staff wouldn't stop complaining about it. (laughs)

Fujibayashi

They were livid, but we squeezed it in, and it turned into a very user-friendly item.

Iwata

But it makes one wonder how a mechanical marvel like a flying beetle would exist in the world of The Legend of Zelda.

Aonuma

But thanks to this mechanical item, we decided to expand on that theme, which gave birth to the ancient civilization that is part of the backdrop this time.

Kobayashi

That's right.

Aonuma

At first, we weren't thinking about having an advanced ancient civilization be part of the milieu. As you can tell from a rocket fist. (laughs)

Iwata

(laughs) So if you hadn't thought of rocket fists, the game wouldn't have involved an ancient civilization?

Aonuma

It may have been quite different.

Iwata

Ah…I think we'll make this section's title "Rocket Fists Give Birth to an Ancient Civilization." (laughs)

Everyone

(laughs)

Fujibayashi

But that's really how the ancient civilization came about, and then we could play it out, saying, "Let's make this person a robot," and "Let's make this place ancient ruins."

Iwata

It is true that we don't make The Legend of Zelda games based on a story. The process is the exact opposite of thinking up a story at the start, coming up with various settings, and writing a proposal. Of course, both ways are valid.

Fujibayashi

That's right. The way we make The Legend of Zelda games is like solving a puzzle, so it's really enjoyable.

Tanaka

That's right.

Iwata

You all like that. Wriggling around and landing. (laughs)

Aonuma

Oh, I see. You struggle and squirm, but pull off a solid landing, which feels really good. (laughs)

Fujibayashi

That's true. And the  Gust Bellows is a new item making its first appearance in a 3D Legend of Zelda game.

Iwata

That magic jar you use to blow stuff around, right? How did you come up with that?

Aonuma

That item first appeared a long time ago in The Legend of Zelda: The Minish Cap10, which Fujibayashi-san worked on.10. The Legend of Zelda: The Minish Cap: An action-adventure game released for the Game Boy Advance system in January 2005.

Fujibayashi

It can do anything. I love it! (laughs)

Iwata

Yes, the Gust Bellow is one of those things you whip out whenever you're in trouble.

Fujibayashi

You say, "It can even do this! After all, it's the Gust Bellow!"

Iwata

(laughs)

Fujibayashi

A game is fun when it has profoundly mysterious things, so we figure its best to prepare items for doing all kinds of things from the very start.

Aonuma

The Gust Bellow can blow around all sorts of things, but at first it could also suck things up.

Kobayashi

Oh, we did experiment with that.

Fujibayashi

It was a magic jar that could suck in and blow out.

Kobayashi

And you could narrow down the mouth like you might to adjust the flow of water from a hose. And if you twisted the end you could blow things further.

Tanaka

From behind Link's back, you couldn't see the mouth, so you were like, "What's going on?!" (laughs)

Aonuma

You couldn't see at all. (laughs) So we made it to only blow and realized that was enough to allow players to do all sorts of things. Then we decided to refine the satisfaction of blowing things around and it turned into a great item.

Fujibayashi

The  Whip is a new item, too.

Aonuma

Oh right, the Whip. Around the time of the E3 201011, Iwata-san said the Whip was cool.

Fujibayashi

And that decided it.

Aonuma

Yes. That statement alone set us to polishing it up.

Iwata

Huh? What I said did that?11. E3 (Electronic Entertainment Expo) 2010: A video game trade show usually held once a year in Los Angeles. Attendees of E3 in 2010 were able to experience The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword for the first time.

Fujibayashi

Yes. We were making a whip before that, but we weren't sure if we should actually use it. Then, before E3, we had a chance to have you look at a version still under development. The conversation turned to using this opportunity to put in a whip, and your response was amazingly positive.

Iwata

Well, I was really happy! (laughs)

Tanaka

Until E3, we hadn't done much with the Whip.

Kobayashi

It was a brand spanking new item.

Iwata

And I snapped at it. (laughs)

Aonuma

You sure did! (laughs) We thought, "Well, now we got to use it!"

Fujibayashi

We thought, "This'll work," and started seriously developing it.

Tanaka

If you swing the Wii Remote Plus, you can use it to haul in items.

Aonuma

And you can do things like snatch keys away from enemies.

Kobayashi

Uh, yes, but…

Aonuma

Yes?

Kobayashi

Is it all right to reveal that?

Aonuma

Oh, sure. Like Iwata-san said at the beginning, there's so much packed into this game that it won't matter.

Kobayashi

That certainly is true! (laughs)

"I'll Never Be Able to Play the Old Way Again!"
Iwata

I think being able to switch the items you're carrying with ease was one key to being good at playing The Legend of Zelda games so far.

Aonuma

I agree with that.

Iwata

But this time, that element of game operation has suddenly changed and the flow of gameplay has become incredibly natural.

Aonuma

That's true. The actions from choosing an item with the Wii Remote Plus to using that item connect smoothly, so gameplay has become seamless.

Kobayashi

You can select items this time while moving Link.

Aonuma

And  you can drink potion while running.

Iwata

Huh?

Aonuma

When an enemy is about to beat Link, you drink potion from a bottle in order to restore his hearts.

Iwata

Yes.

Aonuma

That scene was portrayed via cinematics-like moment while we stop gameplay through the previous title, but this time it fits in seamlessly, so, for example, if a boss is about to finish you off, you can run for your life and gulp down some potion to restore your health.

Fujibayashi

It isn't very seemly behavior, though. (laughs)

Aonuma

I guess not. (laughs)

Iwata

The other day, Miyamoto-san said, "I'll never be able to play the old way again!"

Aonuma

Yes, he's been saying that.

Iwata

But I would imagine that Wii MotionPlus presents a new challenge to the overwhelming majority of players out there. They must feel uneasy about the controls changing so dramatically.

Aonuma

I suppose so.

Iwata

Tanaka-san, as a developer of the game, what would you say to people like that?

Tanaka

I'd like people who feel they aren't very good at button controls to feel more confident about this game. I think some people have felt that with controllers until now there was a distance between themselves and the gameworld, but this time, when you want to do something, it is directly reflected in Link's movement via Wii MotionPlus, so the gameworld feels much closer. I would recommend they give it a try.

Iwata

How about you, Kobayashi-san?

Kobayashi

I was involved in development of Wii Sports Resort. I wasn't in charge of Tennis, but that game distinguished between forehand and backhand shots.

Iwata

You can swing the racket whichever way you want, from the right or the left.

Kobayashi

After growing accustomed to those controls, I played another tennis game and was like, "Oh…the racket's a button." (laughs)

Iwata

Using buttons as controls felt strange.

Kobayashi

That's right. When making this game, to confirm specifications, I played The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker and tried to swing the sword in whatever direction I wanted and couldn't do it. I then thought, "I can't go back."

Fujibayashi

I feel the same way. But the controls are new, so some people will feel something is a little off for the first 10 or 15 minutes.

Iwata

Because the manner of playing is so different than before.

Fujibayashi

But they'll gradually get used to it and the next thing they know, they'll feel like something is off about games you control by punching buttons.

Iwata

And you, Aonuma-san?

Aonuma

I feel as if Wii MotionPlus, and the Wii Remote Plus, have completely become tools. With a conventional controller, there are all these things you have to remember, being presented the controller and pressing these buttons—like remembering the right sequences in fighting games. To tell the truth, I'm not a big fan of games like that.

Iwata

You're not good at them? (laughs)

Aonuma

That's right, I'm not! (laughs) I can't remember the commands. But the compatibility between The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword and Wii MotionPlus are outstanding. Just by swinging the remote, or tilting it, or twisting it, you can perform all kinds of actions, so there's no need to remember anything. I hope people will feel as if they have a new tool and try swinging it around.

Iwata

I suppose it's like gradually becoming able to use a brush better, or a chisel.

Aonuma

Yes, it is. Or maybe a musical instrument. As you're using it, your body grows familiar with it and you gradually master the use of it.

Fujibayashi

Like Miyamoto-san said, it's part of your muscle-memory.

Aonuma

Yes, your body remembers it. So whatever you do, you can't go back to the way controls used to be. When I watch people play at game shows, I think it's interesting how everyone plays a different way.

Iwata

You can handle this tool any way you want, so each user's personality comes out.

Aonuma

That's right. It's interesting how some people move their body a lot and swing around the Wii Remote Plus, while some people make little discrete movements around their waist to move it.

Iwata

You can use the Wii Remote Plus without moving it a whole lot.

Aonuma

Yes. When you get tired, you can use less strength and play using less taxing movements.

Iwata

Development took five years. How were you able to keep going for so long?

Fujibayashi

As mentioned earlier, Miyamoto-san really praised us when we came up with the method of item selection. At that time, we felt a great sense of accomplishment as if we had climbed a big mountain, so we just kept saying, "All right, on to the next mountain."

Tanaka

We got really pumped up then and were like, "We can do this!"

Iwata

You were giving each other high-fives! (laughs)

Aonuma

Yes. (laughs) When we made that item selection system, everyone knew which direction to go. Not that many new items appear this time, but we wanted make each item or function as good as it could be. Everyone on the staff felt like if they really polished it up, it would turn out good.

Fujibayashi, Kobayashi, and Tanaka

(nodding)

Iwata

And that's what turned it into a Zelda game with a dense concentration of content.

Aonuma

I believe so.

Fujibayashi

We really enjoyed making it.

Kobayashi

We worked every day in hopes that players will enjoy it.

Tanaka

It became a habit to say, "That's one more thing that's cool now."

Kobayashi

And "That's one more thing that the players can enjoy."

Iwata

I see. You built up hundreds of individually interesting elements, like stacking up hundreds of thin pieces of paper until there's a thick pile.

Aonuma

That's right. Well, we did get a long time for development. (laughs)

Fujibayashi

Not just to make new things, but we also had plenty of time to make adjustments.

Aonuma

I don't think we wasted any time.

Iwata

But at first, you said, "We'll be done by spring." (laughs)

Aonuma

Uh…yes. (laughs)

Fujibayashi

You plan to hold a number of "Iwata Asks" sessions over The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword, don't you?

Iwata

Yes.

Fujibayashi

Do you plan to have one just focusing on the trouble we had with the development schedule?

Iwata

Like "Iwata Asks: The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword: Development Schedule Difficulties"? (laughs)

Fujibayashi

Yes, yes, like that! (laughs)

Aonuma

Huh? No thanks. I'll sit that one out! (laughs)

Everyone

(laughs)

Iwata

Good work, everyone.

Everyone

Thank you!