Iwata Asks/Transcriptions

This page contains the transcriptions of every Zelda-related interview taken place during Iwata Asks.

The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess (2006)
This interview features Satoru Iwata, Yoshiyuki Oyama, Keisuke Nishimori, Koji Kitagawa, and Atsushi Miyagi.

The Indefinable Essence of Zelda
Iwata

I would like to start talking about "The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess" today. Since many developers are involved with this project, I would like to have as many of them participate in this discussion as possible. First, I will talk with six young staff members who experienced being team leaders for the first time on this project. Just so you know, I am planning to talk with more experienced developers later on, and towards the end I will talk with the director (Eiji) Aonuma-san and (Shigeru) Miyamoto-san. So, let's start by having our young developers introduce themselves.

Oyama

I'm Oyama from Entertainment Analysis and Development (EAD). I was mainly responsible for designing the enemies in Zelda. Before this project, I worked on The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask, Pokémon Stadium 2, Luigi's Mansion, The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker, Pikmin 2 and The Legend of Zelda: Four Swords Adventures.

Nishimori

My name is Nishimori, and I also work in EAD. I was mainly in charge of designing the player, in other words, Link. Before that, I worked on the animations of the non-player characters (NPCs) in Wind Waker and the characters in Mario Kart: Double Dash!!

Kitagawa

I'm Kitagawa from EAD. With this project, I started out as a chief designer for the dungeons, but part way through the project I took over the entire direction of the dungeons, creating the puzzles and and other challenges for the player. Before this project, I worked on the terrain in Luigi's Mansion, the dungeons in Wind Waker and after that on the design of the game logo and title screen for Pikmin 2.

Miyagi

My name is Miyagi and I also work in EAD. I was in charge of planning the field design and managing the field design team. The main projects I have worked on before are Super Mario Sunshine and Pikmin 2, but between those two projects I was called in to provide support for some of the terrain graphics in Wind Waker.

Tominaga

I'm Tominaga, also from EAD. Just like Kitagawa-san, I worked on the direction of puzzles and challenges, but I was in charge of designing them for the field portion of the game. As for what I have worked on previously, I was responsible for the positioning of treasure boxes and enemies in Wind Waker. After that I worked on writing the text for Mario Kart: Double Dash!! and then worked on the game localisation for its worldwide release. Most recently, I helped with the debugging of Four Swords Adventures before working on the direction for Super Mario 64 DS.

Kyogoku

My name is Kyogoku from EAD. I was in charge of the overall script for this Zelda title as well as planning some of the events that used NPCs. I worked on the script of Four Swords Adventures before joining this team.

Iwata

I would guess that for all of you here today, this is the first project of this magnitude that you have worked on. The scale of development for a single title doesn't get any bigger than it was for this project. With a project this large, there is always the monumental challenge of including everyone's various ideas in the game while at the same time maintaining its overall integrity. If I were to pinpoint what it is that binds all of these seemingly disparate elements together, I would say that it is each individual's concept of what makes Zelda unique. I would like to ask each of you how you define that for yourself. Let's start with Oyama-san.

Oyama

Let's see...we are always discussing in the development team what it means for a game to be called a Zelda game, and I really think that there's no clear definition that is shared by everyone. It isn't like there are any rules written down on a piece of paper somewhere. What we do have are the unbroken traditions from the very first "Legend of Zelda" for the Famicom Disk System1. So we know for instance that Link holds his sword with his left hand...

Iwata

But we suddenly broke with that tradition this time, didn't we! (laughs)

Oyama

We did! (laughs) Since Link is controlled by the Wii Remote, he swings his sword with his right hand in the Wii version. I think that was the best solution, but even looking at this one point, there were people who said they thought Link should still hold the sword in his left hand. That would always lead to discussions about what the essence of a Zelda game is. We faced this problem when it came to the placement of enemies, the user interface and everything else you could imagine. And we found that we couldn't properly put it into words.

Iwata

It might not be articulated, but somehow there is a very mysterious shared sense of what this is, isn't there?

Oyama

There is, and that's why it's so difficult to put it into words.

Iwata

Moving on, can you give some examples of where in each of your specialised fields you reflected your definition of Zelda in the game? How about you, Kitagawa-san?

Kitagawa

Well, I was always thinking about puzzles because I was in charge of the dungeons. I thought the only way to learn what Zelda means was to play the previous Zelda games.

Iwata

The past games in the Zelda series act as a reference, something like a textbook, don't they?

Kitagawa

That's right, because as Oyama-san mentioned, there is nothing like a textbook where these things are written down. So I did my best to find what Zelda meant for myself by playing The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time, Majora's Mask and Wind Waker. What I came away with regarding the puzzles is that each one should build on what the player has already experienced. For example, after the player solves a puzzle by destroying a rock, just when they think that the next puzzle will be the same, you put the rock up somewhere high where it can't be reached. I feel that this gradual stepping up of puzzles is the essence of a Zelda game.

Iwata

In other words, what the player has just done will be useful to them, but by itself it isn't enough to solve the next puzzle. So you feel that making the player think about that extra step is what makes a Zelda game?

Kitagawa

That's right. But it's not enough for it to simply get progressively more difficult. Once the player solves a puzzle, they should be able to move through the game smoothly for a while. In that sense, it's different from the type of games typified by the Mario series that steadily become more difficult.

Iwata

There is definitely an action-game aspect to Zelda, but it's a little different from the type of game where the player simply learns by repeating the movements over and over again.

Kitagawa

I think that's right.

Iwata

Nishimori-san, you were in charge of designing Link and his movements. What do you think is the essence of a Zelda game?

Nishimori

Up to now I have known Zelda as a player, and what I have always admired about the essence of Zelda games is that when the player wants to see what will happen when they try something, there is always an appropriate response to it in the game. For example, there might be a switch in a dungeon that looks like it should go down if something heavy is placed on it, and the game meets those expectations. Because the game lets the player experiment with so many choices, it doesn't feel like you are being forced to do things. This gives the player the sense that they are making progress in the game by virtue of their own experiences and working things out on their own. For me, the essence of a Zelda game is that feeling the player gets when they are able to solve puzzles in their own way. This is what I kept in mind when I was working on this project.

Iwata

Zelda games do meet the expectations of users in this way, don't they? And that's not only true for puzzle-solving. It also applies to situations in which the player decides to remember the result of taking a particular action because they are sure it will be useful down the road.

Nishimori

That's exactly right.

Oyama

What you just mentioned is something that we were keenly aware of during development, and it's something we struggled with, too. For example, there might be an enemy that attacks Link by throwing something at him. The easy solution is to use the shield to block it, but we also had to consider what would happen when the player hit it with the sword. These things pile up on top of each other very quickly and it becomes increasingly complicated to create these responses in the game. Taking the same example I just mentioned, if Link is wearing the Iron Boots when he is hit by that attack, should he just take damage or should he also be knocked down? It's never-ending because everything that occurs has an effect on all the subsequent responses. If you're just thinking about this on your own it's overwhelming, but it's undoubtedly an important part of the depth we have come to expect from Zelda games.

Iwata

I see. Miyagi-san, what do you think is the essence of a Zelda game?

Miyagi

This is a question that I have also struggled with. I even once asked this question to one of the most senior developers in the company who has years of experience with Zelda. You know what I got for an answer? "If the Zelda staff made it, it's Zelda!" (laughs)

Iwata

It's like a Zen riddle! (laughs)

Miyagi

I remember being very perplexed! (laughs) When I re-played all of the Zelda games starting with the first one, I realised that although what was just mentioned about meeting the expectations of the user is certainly a core part of the Zelda experience, so too is cutting out all of the unnecessary elements. Something that is all too common with games nowadays are movie scenes that the user can't interact with. In Zelda, these are removed to the greatest extent possible in order to allow the player to do what they want. In this respect, Zelda games have a very high level of quality. So when I approached the development of this title, rather than thinking about what Zelda is or means, it was more important for me to preserve the quality of the Zelda series. Rather than thinking about what Zelda is, I thought about where the real quality of Zelda games should lie. For example, the story in Ocarina of Time starts when a small fairy called Navi flies from far away to find Link, an innocent young boy. Then, rather than just watching a movie, the player learns what kind of boy Link is by actually becoming him in the game, and the player is actually introduced to the town when Navi is flying around and bouncing from place to place. These were very effective devices in the introduction to that game.

Iwata

There's nothing unnecessary in there, is there?

Miyagi

Nothing at all. There is no waste in terms of time or data. I learned a lot from that and tried very hard to reach that level of quality during development, but there were a lot of questions for which I wasn't able to find answers. For example, I wasn't able to find satisfactory answers to questions such as whether or not it's still necessary to allow the player to cut the grass in Zelda games.

Iwata

So, drawing the line between objects the player can interact with and which elicit responses, and those that don't, is very difficult. If you leave too much out the game world won't be realistic enough, but if you try to put too much in it will turn into an endless task.

Miyagi

That's right. I'm ashamed to admit it, but when I wasn't able to find the right balance I had to seek support from Miyamoto-san. This made me realise how little experience I have! (laugh)

Iwata

I will be sure to ask you about how much Miyamoto-san "upended the tea table"2 with his last-minute suggestions later in the interview! (laughs) Tominaga-san, what are your thoughts about what Zelda means?

Tominaga

Apart from what everyone else has said, but I would say that it's the realism of the game world. In other words, whether or not the player will be able to enjoy the story without feeling that it is unnatural. This is something that Miyamoto-san mentions frequently, but I don't mean the kind of realism where each individual strand of hair is accurately depicted, but rather the fact that a shop owner is not likely to give a hearty welcome to a child that comes into their shop in the middle of the night.

Iwata

Miyamoto-san is pretty strict about that sort of thing, isn't he?

Tominaga

He is! (laughs)

Nishimori

He once pointed out to me that Link shouldn't be standing upright when there is an enemy standing right next to him. And that was when the player wasn't even controlling Link!

Iwata

Even though the player's not doing anything, he said "Link would be in a fighting pose if an enemy were standing next to him!" (laughs)

Nishimori

He did! (laughs) But putting in that one little touch has a really big effect on the game.

Tominaga

That kind of attention to detail is what helps establish the realism of the game world.

Iwata

They might be small details, but by having them pointed out, they set the standard for realism in the game.

Tominaga

That's right. I think that's also an important part of what makes a Zelda game. This is similar to what Kitagawa-san said, but another important factor is how the player feels when they solve a puzzle. The great feeling that comes from hearing the classic Zelda chime is one of the best parts of any Zelda game.

Iwata

That's true, isn’t it? Whenever I solve a difficult puzzle in Zelda, it always makes me think "I might be pretty smart!" (laughs)

Tominaga

It's absolutely essential. Another thing that's important is having fun getting side-tracked from the main story. You happen to go back somewhere you have already been even though you don't have a particular reason to go there, and you find that you can use one of your new items to get to a new area and find a treasure chest. I think that having a game full of experiences like that might be what makes a Zelda game.

Iwata

I see. And what about you, Kyogoku-san?

Kyogoku

I think you can say the same thing Tominaga-san just said about what the characters in the game say. For example, hearing something unexpected when you talk to a character you haven't talked to in a while, or being surprised when a character gets angry at you for something you casually did. If you overdo it, then it will be a nuisance to players, and there's also no point in putting something in that no one will ever notice. That's why I was always trying to think of subtle things that might or might not be noticed by players. These things are silly in a good way, and I tried to put in as many of them as possible.

Iwata

Mention Zelda and people will often say that it's hard-core, a traditional gamer's game, but it's actually completely crammed with these silly things! (laughs)

Kyogoku

That's right! (laughs) But things can get out of hand if you overdo it. On the other hand, if we don't put enough of these things in the game, Miyamoto-san will always notice it and send an e-mail saying something like: "I went to all the trouble of trying this in the game and I was sad because I didn't get a new reaction from any of the characters in the game." I called these his "sob story e-mails".

Iwata

"Sob story e-mails"! (laughs)

Kyogoku

These were e-mails where he would describe what he did and what happened in the game, and why that made him sad. In the later stages of development, there was a sob story e-mail every night!

All

(laughter)

Iwata

Well, I now understand what Zelda means to each of you. As far as my own opinion is concerned, I have a strong feeling that there are as many definitions of Zelda as there are people. But these definitions are not completely different from each other. Rather they all overlap to some extent with one another. That's why I feel confident that it will come together nicely in the end. Taking it one step further, I think the fact that there isn't a perfect definition that can be expressed in words is the reason that Zelda games offer such a rich and rewarding experience.

Ideas Born Out of Functionality
Iwata

We had originally planned to release Twilight Princess at the end of 2005, but as we entered the final period before completion, we decided to postpone the release by a year. This decision had the effect of moving the finish line further away right at the end of the race, so to speak. There was also the added challenge of developing the Wii version, and I think this made things more difficult for everyone. I would like to hear how you felt about the extension of the release date and how the extra time impacted the project. Let's start with Oyama-san.

Oyama

When the extension was finalized, part of me was relieved that we would have more time to create more things in the game, but another part of me realized that this meant having to work on the same project for another year. In the end, the feeling of happiness at being able to create more things in the game was much greater. This was because I realized how big the expectations for this game were from the time the first footage was revealed at E3 in 2004.

Iwata

The whole world is expecting the greatest Zelda ever, isn’t it? I expect there was a tremendous amount of pressure on you to meet those expectations.

Oyama

In terms of the volume of development, there was even more than there was with Ocarina. I felt that rather than hurrying to implement everything by a particular deadline, I would rather have the time to do it right.

Iwata

What about you, Nishimori-san?

Nishimori

I felt glad to have more time to polish the game. Zelda is a type of game, that the only reason you end development is because the deadline is approaching, so completely finishing the game with time to spare before the deadline is nearly impossible. In other words, it's the kind of project where you can always use more time to continue polishing it. With that extra time you don't merely make minor adjustments, you continue to improve it as a game by adding as many new elements as possible. So the more time I have the happier I am. But at the time it was initially decided to postpone the release, I didn't have a clear understanding of how much time I would need to finish my work.

Iwata

With a project this large, it's difficult to know at what pace to work, isn’t it? Naturally at the beginning you didn't know how much work there was to be done. What about you, Kitagawa-san?

Kitagawa

Honestly, I was one of the people who was happy to hear about the delay. At the beginning of the project, the director (Eiji) Aonuma-san told me how many dungeons to make, and it wouldn't have been possible to make that many by the original deadline. But with the delay, it was possible to put together a realistic plan to create that many dungeons. Of course, I mean this in terms of quality as well as quantity. The dungeons in Zelda games are the biggest part of the gameplay, so it wouldn't make sense if only the outside parts of the game were complete. We constantly received feedback from people whom we have asked to test play, about how to have the player use certain items or at what angle to place the camera, and we used that feedback to improve the dungeons. With the extra year, I felt that we were able to polish the dungeons to a level that I am personally satisfied with.

Iwata

What were your impressions, Miyagi-san?

Miyagi

I had always felt that it wouldn't have been possible to finish everything by the original deadline, so I felt that the one year delay was only natural. Since the game wasn't nearly ready in terms of both quality or volume, and we were lacking a clear roadmap for how to proceed, when the decision to postpone release was made I felt that I had to reassess things. Before that, in the period when I felt that it would be impossible to complete everything with the way things were going, I was personally burned out. Readjusting myself, in all sorts of ways, was really quite a struggle. Before the decision to delay the game was taken, I was working on what had to be done every day with the deadline right in front of me. The release date being moved back felt like a chance to begin afresh, and it was of real significance that we could fundamentally reconsider our approach to completing a whole range of issues.

Iwata

When you are short of time, all your energy goes into getting those files done by the end of the day. That's why you can't really look at the bigger picture and make decisions that will be better for the project in the end.

Miyagi

That's right. That's why, to speak frankly, I thought: "If you were going to postpone it by a year, why didn't you tell us that from the start?" (laughs)

Iwata

I understand! (laughs) Tominaga-san, how about you?

Tominaga

In my case, I only joined the team right before the decision to push back the release date was made, which meant I didn't really feel too deeply affected by it. I didn't think much beyond: "that's a pain." In fact, I was more worried about the decisions to develop a Wii version or release it at nearly the same time worldwide. But seeing first-hand how Nintendo comes together and co-operates when they have a tight deadline approaching really made me take a step back and appreciate what a great company this is.

Iwata

Kyogoku-san, how about you?

Kyogoku

When the schedule was extended, sure enough I felt relieved as I would have more time to work on the game. But as I was responsible for the in-game text, localizing the game into all the languages needed for the simultaneous worldwide release was no easy task, even with the release date postponed by a year. With text, you're still making changes right up to the last possible moment. Honestly, even now I wish we could put back the release date another month...

Iwata

That might be a problem! (laughs) But you'll always find places that you could keep refining forever.

Kyogoku

That's true! (laughs)

Iwata

How about the decision to take a game which had been developed for the GameCube and making a Wii version? I'm sure it presented challenges, but tell us also about the positive side of developing the Wii version.

Oyama

To be honest, at first I wondered whether we could really pull it off. After all, it's a completely different piece of hardware. There was resistance to the idea within the team at first, as people thought that the GameCube controller they were used to would work better for the game. That's a very common feeling, isn't it? You might show something to people, and no matter how great it is they'll feel that the thing they are familiar with is better. Particularly during the period when the game was being fine-tuned, it felt like every week they would present us with new controls that felt different from before. I must say, I was a little concerned at that point. The director, Aonuma-san, settled on the current specifications after a process of trial and error at around the time of this year's E3. It was only when I got to try out this version that I realized how fun it was going to be. At this point our final adjustments proceeded at a really rapid pace.

Iwata

And how about you, Nishimori-san?

Nishimori

The fact that the final game is so solidly put together makes me feel a real sense of achievement. Often people who play the Wii version for the first time will express astonishment that the game was originally developed for the GameCube. I am truly happy that so many people feel it is so well made that it feels as if it was designed for Wii from the start. When the decision was made to develop a Wii version, I had serious doubts that a Zelda game could be played with so few buttons. But in the end, thanks to the control offered by the Wii Remote, the range of ways to enjoy the game expanded even further, which was fantastic.

Kitagawa

That's right. When you use the remote for pointing with items such as the bow and arrow and other projectile weapons, you really feel like you have become Link. Now, if I had to choose between one controller or the other, I would choose the Wii Remote every time. Swinging the sword, using the bow, doing Link's spin attack: they all become completely different. It may feel confusing at first, but I honestly feel that you won't know how good this controller really is until you get your hands on it.

Iwata

So you mean you shouldn't say you don't like a dish until you taste it, right?

Kitagawa

That's it! (laughs)

Iwata

How about you, Miyagi-san?

Miyagi

Personally, I'm not very good at games so I had the impression that playing the game with the GameCube controller might be a bit tricky. With the Wii Remote, I felt that the fact that there were less buttons was actually an improvement. At first, when the decision was made to develop a Wii version of Zelda, the overall feeling in the team was concern at having to start from scratch with the gameplay at this late stage. Speaking for myself, I felt strongly that we should get moving on the Wii version right away.

nishimori

Well, this is kind of obvious, but the hard part was making the necessary adjustments to get both versions right. As we had to be absolutely thorough in our fine-tuning of the controls to get them perfect for both the GameCube and Wii versions of Zelda, it doubled our work, to put it simply. So even though we had an extra year to do it, we didn't feel that we could afford to take our time. Quite the opposite: we were working flat out right to the end.

Iwata

I see. So it seems there were both positive and negative sides to it. Now, let's come to Miyamoto-san and his habit of "upending the tea table!" 1.(laughs) In what ways have you witnessed him doing this? If you have ever experienced this, don't hold back!

Oyama

Where I was working, there weren't any particularly serious incidents! (laughs) So I thought: "That's what everyone is talking about? Is that all...?"

Iwata

You expected something more? (laughs)

Oyama

Well, yes! (laughs) To give an example, with the strength of the enemies, he would say: "make them a bit easier" or "this one's too weak!" But even more than these pointers, what I found extremely useful were his reminders that: "Regular players will feel this way..." When you spend all day, every day dealing with nothing but the enemies in the game, you lose perspective and there's a tendency to make things so they will be fun for experts. But Miyamoto-san is always able to look at things from the viewpoint of regular players, which was exactly what I had expected from him.

Iwata

Interesting. How about you, Nishimori-san?

Nishimori

I had also heard a lot of stories about Miyamoto-san, so I worked on the final adjustments to the game while living in constant fear of him "upending the tea table."

Iwata

"Living in constant fear!" (laughs)

Nishimori

I sat near Aonuma-san, and Miyamoto-san would occasionally drop by to discuss various things. I was always anxious to hear what he would say, so I would invariably listen in on their conversation. But just like with Oyama-san, there weren't any "tables upended" regarding Link's design or movements. In fact, I would say that we received very valuable guidance from him throughout the entire process of our work. I'd say his style of advice was more like: "It would work better this way!" One thing I remember was the advice we received on the wolf's design. In this game, Link is transformed into a wolf-like beast. In other words, the character the player controls at times moves around on four legs. When we were discussing the wolf's design, Miyamoto-san said: "It's no fun to just look at the back of a four-legged animal all the time." It's true that with a four-legged animal, if you look sideways on or from an angle, you can clearly see the motion of the legs and the overall way the character moves. But if you look directly from behind, it looks really boring compared to a human character's movements. So Miyamoto-san told us to have someone riding the wolf. At the early stages, we went for a very unassuming character on the wolf's back, but by the end we had made this character occupy a central place in the game.

Iwata

Ah, I see! The really interesting thing about what you've just told us is that Miyamoto-san was "speaking from a functional point of view." It wasn't that he wanted a character riding the wolf for narrative reasons. Rather, the reason was to do with its function in the game, as "viewing an animal directly from behind all the time is boring." It's really interesting to hear that the idea of having someone riding the wolf was because of this. I really feel that this is the thinking of someone who worked in industrial design. Sidetracking just a little, when Miyamoto-san got Mario to ride Yoshi in Super Mario World, the thinking behind that idea was "functional." What I mean is that the SNES was a console which didn't allow a lot of sprites (the technical mechanism that allows graphics to be displayed on the screen) to be lined up on-screen at the same time. To explain why Yoshi ended up looking like a dinosaur, it's because that shape allows you to limit the number of sprites lined up on screen when Mario and Yoshi are overlapping. You'll understand if you take a look at the original blueprint for Yoshi, that Yoshi was designed purely from a functional point of view. So the reason Yoshi ended up being a dinosaur is not because we wanted Mario to ride a dinosaur. Rather, it was because something like a dinosaur was the shape which was allowed by the technical limitations. Sorry, I digressed slightly there! (laughs) Kitagawa-san, did you have any "tables upended?"

Kitagawa

I also honestly didn't experience anything where I could say: "This is it! This is him shaking things up!" Looking back and considering why this didn't happen, I think it is because with the one-year extension to the project, our team's planners kept coming up with so many ideas that there was no room for things to be "shaken up." I mean, once we had made something, we repeatedly examined how well it worked in the game, decided which aspects didn't work, and then revised them. For that reason, when Miyamoto-san played the dungeons later on, he wouldn't say "do this!" or "do that!" In fact, he would say "if you changed this a little it would look better" or "if you do this, the route through the dungeon will become clearer." That is, he didn't flip our ideas on their head, but rather he gave us really constructive advice.

Iwata

Interesting. I am looking forward to seeing whether you'll see things the same way as you go on to develop more games in the future. (laughs) How about you, Miyagi-san?

Miyagi

For field design, which I was responsible for, there were not that many things which he changed. But actually my opinion varies a little from everyone else here, in that I think that Miyamoto-san limited his demands on us to ensure that everything we developed had that fundamental Zelda feel. To give an example, when we showed the game at E3, the feature allowing you to fire arrows at enemies was included in the game, but I had serious doubts about the controls for this. Not to beat around the bush, I thought that it was much simpler to use the GameCube controller. It was then that Miyamoto-san introduced the slingshot, which had not featured up to then, in the early stages of the game, which acts as a tutorial. At the same time, he put in a feature where, when you go to hit something with a projectile, the action stops to give you a second to line up your pointer. That brief pause is a great feature, and renews the player's feeling of excitement and urgency. The second I experienced this, my view of the game changed right away. I have the impression that by Miyamoto-san adding those subtle refinements to the game, elements that had caused me concern were dealt with one by one. Thanks to Miyamoto-san's guidance, the introductory stages that draw new players into the game in particular, became extremely "Zelda-like". So although he didn't shake things up in a dramatic way, I would say that Miyamoto-san made a remarkable difference in changing the finished product into a Zelda game, through making numerous small changes. But rather than feeling awestruck by this, personally I felt strongly that I needed to work a little harder as a game developer! (laughs)

Iwata

Maybe you felt that you had to get things into better shape before Miyamoto-san took a look at your work?

Miyagi

Exactly. My overall impression was that Miyamoto-san was very sensitive to the amount of pressure we were under, and the level of stress that accompanies such a long-term development project. But although it looked like he was going easy on us, my opinion is that he did in fact "shake things up" a great deal.

Iwata

That's a really interesting assessment!

Miyagi

That's why I think that if the project had been extended by another six months, he would have exerted his influence more overtly.

Iwata

He would have worked you hard, like Ittetsu Hoshi!2 (laughs)

Miyagi

He would have! (laughs) To be honest, at the stage before Miyamoto-san checked it, there were a large number of things that we needed to change. But perhaps Miyamoto-san understood that if he had shaken things up too radically at that stage, the amount of things to be done would have gotten completely out of hand. That's why he began with the things which he knew we would be able to do to make the game more "Zelda-like," little by little. Then at the end, once it had become a true Zelda game, he would say: "I'm sorry to do this at such a late stage but..." Then he would go ahead and change all of the things that had been bothering him. I think he deliberately chose to do it this way.

Iwata

I see. And how about you, Tominaga-san?

Tominaga

Just like Miyagi-san, I also got the impression that we were being asked to change things one by one, beginning with those we could comfortably handle. Another way to look at it is that Miyamoto-san was clearly thinking through and methodically dealing with those issues which everyone was concerned about, but didn't know how to handle. For instance, in the version we showed at E3, you were able to play through the first village in the game. But even though that was specifically designed for E3, because it was a self-contained level the task of integrating it into the main Zelda game involved making a lot of adjustments, and we didn't quite know what to do. Miyamoto-san did that for us, which was a great help. So I think rather than upending the tea table, he was actually creating things we didn't have in the game. A change in the game which was particularly memorable was to do with a sub-event which had no connection with the main story. We made that sub-event, intending it to be completely optional, but then quite far into the latter stages of the project, Miyamoto-san proposed that this should be worked into the main body of the story. Because of the stage we were at, that sent shockwaves through the staff! (laughs) But once we'd actually made it, the item that you gain through that event linked really smoothly into the development of the main game, so the feeling was that we'd come up with something really good. So while it wasn't as if things had been totally thrown into disorder, I remember thinking that perhaps that was an example of Miyamoto-san upending the tea table.

Iwata

How about you, Kyogoku-san?

Kyogoku

Personally, I definitely experienced that tea table being upended! (laughs)

All

(laughter)

Kyogoku

The reason we had to change things boils down to the fact that in the first village, there were a lot of things particular to the GameCube version. This meant that there were many aspects of the Wii version that did not take into consideration the fact that players wouldn't be familiar with the game itself or the Wii Remote. Because of this, and I think this again goes back to what Iwata-san just referred to as "ideas born from functionality", there were still a huge number of things that needed to be communicated to the player at the beginning of the game so they would be able to enjoy playing it on Wii. At first, the idea was that the player would spend one day in the village, but out of the blue it was decided to make it three days. We got a sheet of paper with a specification plan written on it, a kind of "Miyamoto-san's Three-Day Plan"...

Iwata

Ah, a "specification plan?" That's always an indication that he wants to make some major changes!

All

(laughter)

Kyogoku

This really was at the latter stages of development… Well, to be precise, it was just after E3…

Iwata

(laughter)

Kyogoku

Localization had already gotten underway. To suddenly go and make a change like this, well I was speechless... The programming had to be changed, the number of items increased and of course the positioning of the characters also changed. It also required some adjustment of the field design. Naturally, all of the lines spoken by the characters were affected so I was frantically getting in touch with Europe and America. I had to tell them: "That village is going to be completely changed, so please wait a couple of weeks! Please don't translate anything yet!"

All

(laughter)

Kyogoku

So we made the changes, and just as I was thinking we were going to make it in time, the table was overturned again when it was decided to tie a sub-event into the game's main narrative, as Tominaga-san just mentioned. So I got in touch with everyone around the world and told them: "It's going to change again!" Personally speaking, I felt that the table was being constantly overturned. When we somehow managed to finish in time for the release date, I thought: so that must be the "legend" of Zelda...

All

(Roaring laughter)

Kitagawa

You were just dying to say that, weren't you?

Iwata

Trust the scriptwriter to get the best lines! (laughs) But seriously, I think that, as you said, Miyamoto-san probably viewed that first part of the game as performing an absolutely crucial function. That's why he had such a definite idea of precisely what needed to be communicated to the player at that point. This is exactly why he gave such clear directions that there was something missing, or that things needed to be introduced to the player in a specific order. As the project draws to its conclusion, and the development team are working like crazy, they will naturally become increasingly less sensitive to what kind of things might confuse a first-time player. For that reason, I think it's actually inevitable that Miyamoto-san will come in at the last moment and upend the tea table. Now that things have calmed down, when you look back at those major changes made to the first village, do you think those changes were a good thing?

Kyogoku

Yes. It's not only easier for the first-time player to become familiar with the Wii Remote, but in terms of the story the player will be drawn straight into the world of Zelda. As a result, I am really glad that we made those changes.

Iwata

Incidentally, I remember being told a long time ago that Miyamoto-san's definition of an idea is apparently: "something that solves multiple problems at the same time with just a single adjustment." What you've just told us seems to fit that definition to a tee. Now, I've got a final question I would like to ask each of you. Can I get each of you to give me one aspect of The Legend Of Zelda: Twilight Princess which you are particularly proud of, and that you want everyone to see? Let's begin with you, Oyama-san.

Oyama

There are just too many to mention! (laughs) Naturally,  as I was in charge of the enemies, I think it's the battles. The fighting techniques, the effects you see when an enemy is hit, falls to the ground and disappears, and what Link does during that time as well. I certainly want players to enjoy savoring those details. Also, several familiar enemies from previous Zelda games make an appearance, and it wasn't simply a case of giving the graphics a polish. We have also given them slightly different methods of attack, so both people playing for the first time and experienced Zelda fans will be able to enjoy a fresh challenge.

Iwata

Nishimori-san?

Nishimori

Firstly, as the Wii version is being advertised so widely, I would like to say to everyone that the GameCube version is also packed with great features, so please give it a go! Of course, it has a completely different feel from the Wii version. Something which I gave a lot of attention, and which I think is one of the game's outstanding features, are the horse-riding scenes. In particular, the parts where you are fighting enemies while on horseback is something I've been dying to do ever since Ocarina of Time. When we let people have a go at a horseback battle scene at E3, there was an incredibly positive response, but within the team there were those who felt that this part of the game needed a little more work. After Miyamoto-san suggested it, I even went horse-riding!

Iwata

You actually went horse-riding?

Nishimori

I really did. Miyamoto-san just said: "Go and ride a horse!" (laughs) I got the designer responsible for the horse and the person responsible for the animations of Link and the horse, and the three of us went to do some field work. As we were beginners, we weren't able to fully master horse-riding, but we got to appreciate that feeling of the size of the horses you get by standing beside them as well as the sensation of riding a large animal, that kind of enjoyable sense of not being fully in control. We experienced a whole range of things, including the way riding a horse affects your line of vision, and I think there were elements of the game that we couldn't have made unless we had actually ridden a horse. So that's what I really want players to notice.

Iwata

How about you, Kitagawa-san?

Kitagawa

Well, as the person in charge of the dungeons, I want players to enjoy the rich variety and the attention to detail that has gone into all the dungeons. To give a more specific recommendation, there are some unexpected old-school elements making a 3D appearance, and I am sure they will bring smiles to the faces of long-time fans. I hope players enjoy the hard work that has gone into them.

Iwata

And you, Miyagi-san?

Miyagi

If I'm asked to give a recommendation or an aspect that I am particularly proud of, I think I have to speak on behalf of all of the staff who worked on the field design, so it's very difficult to narrow it down. Firstly, of course, is the fun of galloping on your horse across the vast plains of Hyrule. I think the sense of speed is something the players will really enjoy. Another thing I secretly like is that once you have progressed to a certain point in the game, there is a place that has been designed so that the player can look out from Hyrule Plains and see exactly where the mountains, lakes, deserts and rivers you have journeyed through are located. Of course, it isn't perfect, but it has been made with the greatest effort to make it all consistent. You can enjoy that view in-between your adventures!

Iwata

Tominaga-san, please.

Tominaga

As I feel like I want to recommend everything, I would urge players to get side-tracked and explore every corner of this world. To give an aspect of the game I paid particular attention to, I would make a slightly unusual choice. I really put a lot of effort into naturally leading the player in a particular direction when we didn't want them straying too far from the main plot of the story. The fact that you can move around freely is one of Zelda's great points, but there are situations where you definitely don't want the player to wander into a particular place. So you have to make sure you guide the player along the flow of the game without them noticing they are being guided. This is extremely difficult, and as I worked hard on it, I'd like to say that everyone should pay attention to it... But this is something that players aren't supposed to become aware of so we can't have them thinking: "Wow, someone has really put a lot of effort into making this seem so natural!" So in the end I can't really recommend that players pay attention to that! (laughs)

Iwata

And finally, Kyogoku-san.

Kyogoku

The worlds in the GameCube and Wii versions are mirror images of each other, with the left and right completely reversed. Just by using a different controller and experiencing a completely reversed world you really get a completely different type of enjoyment. All of us have become familiar with seeing this world on a daily basis, but I still get lost when I have a go with left and right reversed. I really want people to experience both. And personally, the parts which I put particular effort into were all the really insignificant details! (laughs) If you're progressing in the game, and you discover something where you laugh and think "This is just ridiculous...!", I'm certain that will be a part that I really gave a lot of attention to and want people to see!

All

(laughter)

Iwata

Thank you for joining me for such an extended discussion! I hope everyone will view this as the greatest game in the Zelda series. Thank you all.

All

Thank you very much!

Like Trying to Mold Clay
Iwata

In the previous interview, I spoke with some of the younger developers that worked on the latest Zelda. This time, I have been joined by more experienced developers who over the years have become accustomed to working on Zelda titles. I'd like to ask each of you to introduce yourself. Let's start with you, Kawagoe-san.

Kawagoe

I would like to start talking about "The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess" today. Since many developers are involved with this project, I would like to have as many of them participate in this discussion as possible. First, I will talk with six young staff members who experienced being team leaders for the first time on this project. Just so you know, I am planning to talk with more experienced developers later on, and towards the end I will talk with the director (Eiji) Aonuma-san and (Shigeru) Miyamoto-san. So, let's start by having our young developers introduce themselves.

Iwata

OK, next is Asakawa-san.

Asakawa

I'm Asakawa. On this project, I was in charge of bringing together various elements related to the non-player characters (NPCs) in the game. In previous projects, I was responsible for the NPCs in Ocarina of Time, Pokémon Stadium 2, Majora's Mask and Super Mario Sunshine. I worked on the enemies and cut-scenes in Pikmin and Pikmin 2, and was in charge of the boss character animations in Wind Waker.

Miyagi

I see. Takano-san?

Takano

My name is Takano. I was basically in charge of the story scripting for Twilight Princess, but I was also involved in the development of the cut-scenes and a few of the events in the game. After 1080° Snowboarding was finished, I worked in a supporting role in the development of Ocarina of Time. I've been working on nothing but Zelda ever since! (laughs)

Iwata

You're practically living in a Zelda game, aren't you? (laughs)

Takano

Sometimes I think I might be! (laughs)

Iwata

OK, next up is Takizawa-san.

Takizawa

My name is Takizawa. I was the artwork director for Twilight Princess. I was basically in charge of organizing the work of all the artists, which entailed a large range of responsibilities. For example, I was responsible for determining the overall direction of the artistic style as well as the technology that we used. I also had to make sure the artists had everything they needed to do their work. Before this project, I got my start with Super Mario 64, which was followed by Star Fox 64. After that, I was involved with Ocarina of Time. Since then, just like Takano-san, I have been living, eating, and breathing Zelda projects! (laughs) Let's see, I was also the artwork manager for Wind Waker.

Iwata

What was different about your role this time as artwork director compared to your role as artwork manager on Wind Waker?

Takizawa

On Wind Waker, when we decided to go ahead with that graphical style, the decisions about the overarching effects were made in consultation with other staff members. With Twilight Princess, in addition to directly working on those kinds of design-related issues, I feel that I had more things to do that were required to keep the project moving forward. For example, I had to make sure that the artists in every section had all the tools they needed as well as responding to requests to hire more staff with in-demand skills.

Iwata

Do you think the fact that this kind of work was required means that more people were involved with artwork on this project than anything else we have ever done?

Takizawa

Definitely, without a doubt

Iwata

I see. Next is Miyanaga-san.

Miyanaga

My name is Miyanaga. I was the sub-director for Twilight Princess. I was mainly in charge of devising game content and positioning various characters in the field portion of the game. After working on Ocarina of Time, Twilight Princess is actually just my second time working on a Zelda project. I was the field designer for Ocarina of Time, and I was basically in charge of designing Hyrule Field in that game.

Iwata

Last but not least, we have Ikematsu-san.

Ikematsu

I'm Ikematsu. My title for this project was planning sub-director and I was primarily responsible for the dungeons, in particular the dungeon layouts and the positioning of enemies. My first experience with the Zelda series was as the dungeon designer for Ocarina of Time. After that, I worked on Majora's Mask and was in charge of the planning for Wind Waker before working on this project.

Iwata

I would like to start off by asking you what you felt was different about the development of Twilight Princess compared to previous games in the Zelda series. I thought it best to ask all of you since you have so many years of experience on Zelda projects. Takano-san, what would you say was different this time around?

Takano

Well, I would say that because there was such a huge number of people working on this project, there were also a lot of differences in each individual's perception of Zelda. On top of that, everyone was very stubborn about their opinions, too! (laughs) So of course there weren't many cases in which everyone agreed on how to proceed. It was much more common to have people voicing their disagreement and offering constructive criticism. As a result, the developers probably debated this Zelda with more fervor than any other Zelda game to date, and I think that passion is evident in the game. I'm sure that the director, Aonuma-san, had to expend a good deal of effort to bring everything together. But in the end I believe he succeeded in doing just that, and the result is the biggest Zelda to date.

Iwata

So because of the large size of this project, it was more difficult to make sure everyone was on the same page than it was with any other Zelda?

Takano

Yes, that's right.

Iwata

I see. What about you, Takizawa-san?

Takizawa

Speaking from the point of view of an artist, the sheer volume of work meant that we needed the assistance of both the company's internal artists as well as that of several temporary workers. With the increased staff size, it became even more important to properly care for everyone, effectively communicate the project's direction and manage the progress of the project. Also, the creation of some things that used to be hammered out by senior and junior artists working together closely had to be delegated to people who were not necessarily familiar with our internal processes. And not only for the artists, but for all the team leaders on this project, there was a lot of delegation and project management that couldn't be avoided because of the large scale of the project. Since no one really had a lot of experience in those areas, I think each of the team leaders had to use a process of trial and error to learn how to organize their work.

Iwata

With a project of this magnitude, I think that many of the people with experience on previous Zelda games were asked to fill a wide variety of new roles. But I imagine that it was surely difficult to fully grasp the big picture due to the enormous number of in-game names, characters and events, and that probably made giving accurate instructions difficult. That means without people who have a good grasp of the entire game constantly running about trying to keep everyone on the same page, the project would run aground. Without such people, I can imagine misunderstandings piling up on top of each other and there being countless contradictions in the game. What was it really like?

Takizawa

We definitely encountered those kinds of problems. In fact, it would be fair to say that we were constantly dealing with them! (laughs)

Asakawa

It was a very big issue during development.

Iwata

Takano-san, you worked on bringing together the outline of the story to a certain extent, so I think you were probably conscientious about understanding the bigger picture from an early stage. Wasn't that a lot of work for you this time around?

Takano

Well, the plots of Zelda games have always been broadly outlined by the director at the beginning. Then each time a new and interesting gameplay element is devised, something is later added to the story to accommodate it.

Iwata

Oh, so the emphasis isn't put on the story from the beginning?

Takano

Not at all. It's never been done like that.

Iwata

So in a nutshell, the storyline of Zelda is created to bring out the best of the fun and interesting gameplay elements in such a way that the consistency of the story is maintained. I guess your biggest task is the balancing act required to make sure this is done successfully.

Takano

Yes, and that's why I was able to do my job effectively by going around to each section and absorbing information from them. Put another way, this project came together in the end because of how well each of the section leaders incorporated interesting things into the game.

Iwata

So everyone was able to agree on a vision for the project once there was a concrete image to refer to?

Takano

That's right.

Iwata

So Takizawa-san, when you made those screens, did you feel that there was a need to bring everyone's vision of the game together?

Takizawa

Yes, I thought it would be better to show everyone something like that because the overall plan for the game wasn't quite coming together at the start. In game development, in principle I feel that the artists shouldn't just get together and make decisions on their own. I feel that artists should listen carefully to what the director, planners, and programmers say about what kind of game they want to make, and then offer suggestions.

Iwata

So the way you see it, the role of artists is not to create a certain artistic style because that's what they want to make, but rather to pursue the best possible visual representation in response to the kind of game that the developers want to create, right?

Takizawa

Exactly.

Iwata

That way of thinking is very characteristic of how things are usually done at Nintendo.

Takizawa

Well, of course I think it's acceptable for artists to make their own suggestions, but in order to make a good game it's very important to seek the most appropriate visual style for the game. That's why for a time I decided to take charge and create those images to give the project some momentum when I noticed that it had started to stall. But once the ball got rolling again, the leaders of each section resumed their central role of creating artwork that suited the content of the game.

Iwata

I see. I think the best example of something that is difficult to make without finalized plans are the movies that Kawagoe-san was in charge of. Even if you try to make them early on, it might all be for nothing if the underlying premise is pulled out from underneath you. Kawagoe-san, you've created the movies not just for Zelda games, but for several other projects as well. Was there anything unique about this project?

Kawagoe

Well, there were definitely a lot of undetermined factors in this project, but by now I've gotten used to that! (laughs) We overcame these difficulties by looking ahead and trying to make the storyboards in such a way that they could apply to various situations. We still had to make a lot of changes in the end, but we tried to foresee as many of the changes as possible.

Iwata

There was quite a buzz when the first Twilight Princess movie was shown at E3 in 2004 without prior announcement. Did your team make that movie?

Kawagoe

Um, actually no. I wasn't fully involved with the project at that time.

Takizawa

The team in America was in charge of that movie. The amazing thing is that it looks like a cut-scene movie, but in reality it was compiled entirely with camera work of actual play on the ROM. There's someone in the American localization team who is a genius when it comes to that kind of camera work. You wouldn't think it possible, but he was able to create that incredibly polished movie with normal gameplay.

Takano

He's a very enthusiastic Zelda fan. I think his passion for Zelda is what made that movie possible.

Iwata

Oh, I didn't know that. When that movie was shown at E3, there was an incredibly enthusiastic reaction to it, wasn't there? Did you see it?

Takano

I most certainly did! (laughs)

Iwata

There were even people in the crowd who were crying! (laughs) I expected the excited cheering, but I honestly didn't think anyone would be moved to tears. What were your impressions when you saw that reaction?

Takizawa

I was very pleased. Not only did I feel that way when the movie was shown, I found that it also motivated me during the development that followed. Since this was such a big project, there were times when everyone started to feel mentally drained. At those times, and even now I must admit, just thinking of that movie and the positive reaction to it is enough to keep me going! (laughs) And that's true not just for me, but for a lot of the other staff members as well. It was a great motivator.

Iwata

I see, I see.

Takano

The fact that it wasn't a movie, but footage of actual gameplay was also very motivating. We all felt that once we'd completed this project and gotten it out to everyone who was waiting for it, it would really blow them away!

Takizawa

For the artists, it was encouraging because it confirmed that we didn't choose the wrong direction in terms of the game's look. We had proof that everyone out there was impressed by the game's visual style

Asakawa

It really felt like the reaction to that movie would cement the overall direction of the game. So of course, before E3 we were all quite nervous about whether or not everyone would like it.

Iwata

The incredibly positive and enthusiastic response to that footage really reinforced the fact that we were going in the right direction. Development moved along much more smoothly after that.

Takizawa

It really did. I think that's especially true of the artwork department.

Iwata

I think that people looking in from the outside think that Nintendo's Zelda team is incredibly experienced, capable of maintaining its motivation and carrying large projects through to the finish without any external input. But as it turns out, everyone on the Zelda development team is only human after all! (laughs) You're all nervous the first time you show your work to other people and you're happy when they like what you've done.

Takizawa

I was particularly nervous about Link's design. The reason for that is, although we were continuing with the aesthetic style of Ocarina of Time, the more realistic you make characters, the more they tend to start looking a bit like plastic dolls.

Iwata

Although the visual design of Twilight Princess is indeed realistic, I think it has a unique atmosphere that conventional photo realism cannot offer. There were a lot of people, mostly from overseas, who said they really wanted to play a realistic-looking Zelda. I don't think it was easy for you to come up with a visual design that met those expectations. Could you tell me about what you struggled with in that area?

Takizawa

Well, among the artists it was clear from the start that we would not pursue photo realism in this game. We didn't see any reason to engage the competition in a struggle over who could make the most photo-realistic game, or any significance in attempting to recreate the real world for that matter. Rather, we felt that it would be more meaningful to create something we wanted to make, and then show the world what kind of game can be made when you have that kind of passion. So we decided to place our emphasis on creating the palpable atmosphere that everyone liked so much about Ocarina of Time.

Iwata

But that's much easier said than done, isn't it? Surely everyone has their own individual artistic style and there were a huge number of people working on the graphics of this game. I think that it would be no small task to come up with a consistent atmosphere if everyone just drew whatever they felt like. How did you work around this issue?

Takizawa

This is actually something that always surprises me, but there's no special effort or fantastic trick to accomplishing this. It was the same when we were working on Ocarina of Time and Wind Waker. For example, the graphical style in Wind Waker was very unique, almost to a fault, but we never actually established a standard for everyone to follow. At the beginning we had Link's design, enemy designs based on that and the overall design of the first island. Just based on these sample designs, everyone was able to faithfully recreate the same style in the rest of the world. I always worry about it when we are in the middle of the process, but in the later stages of development the graphical style and movements always come together very quickly. Even this time around with Twilight Princess, we firmly established the basic lines we would work from right at the beginning of development and almost never worked on them again after that.

Iwata

In other words, the early sample stages and the movie that was such a hit at E3 worked like "moving specification sheets," and everyone based their own work on those.

Takizawa

That's right. That's why our basic stance has always been to ask artists to come up with what they want.

Iwata

So, Asakawa-san, how did you find it once the project actually got underway?

Asakawa

Well, I think that everyone basically shared the same idea about the direction to go in. But that's not to say there were any strict rules to follow, because that would lead to a lack of originality and make the creative process uninteresting, which would be the worst possible outcome. So the basic approach was to let people create what they wanted and then slightly modify the completed designs to ensure a Zelda-like consistency throughout the game. That approach was enough to get the job done effectively. Particularly in the later stages of development, everyone really got into the swing of things.

Iwata

So that's how you do it! I had never imagined that it would be possible to create such an enormous game world without some poor person working around the clock to oversee everything and tie it all together. I don't want it to sound like I'm bragging about my own company, but listening to all of you talk reminds me how incredible the Entertainment Analysis and Development Division really is.

Miyanaga

Although the artists had a lot of freedom, Takizawa-san regularly checked everything to make sure everyone was moving in the same direction.

Iwata

So adjustments were made along the way before things got out of hand.

Miyanaga

Yes. At key points of development, Takizawa-san and the other section leaders would make sure things were ticking along nicely.

Iwata

I'd like to ask about aspects not related to artwork for a moment. Both Miyanaga-san and Ikematsu-san joined this project after it was already underway. What were your impressions when you first joined the team?

Ikematsu

At the start, I was shown the E3 demo and I was really impressed. I was excited to see that they were already that far along, but as it turns out... well, they actually weren't all that far along yet!

All

(laughter)

Iwata

What about you, Miyanaga-san?

Miyanaga

Well, I volunteered to join this team, and just like Ikematsu-san, I was astonished to find out that the overall structure of the game hadn't even been finalized yet! (laughs) All of the individual materials were there, but the foundation hadn't been laid yet. So we started by making that foundation.

Ikematsu

In the team, we used to talk about starting by "making the box." What this means is that without a "box," that is a space to play, there was no way of verifying anything in the game, and no way to know how people would enjoy it. That's why we decided to begin our work by creating that box.

Miyanaga

I think the most ideal approach is to make everything in an orderly manner after all the specifications are finalized, but Zelda has never been developed by creating things to meet specifications.

Iwata

If you start out by finalizing the specifications before creating anything, it probably wouldn't end up being Zelda.

Miyanaga

I think that's right. That's why we absolutely had to start by making that box, or foundation, and then make fine-tuned adjustments in a way that resembled the moulding of clay.

Ikematsu

Once the box is done, everyone can start putting things in it and it starts to become clear which ideas work well. Everyone shares their opinions and we gradually brush it up so that the good things stand out even more.

Iwata

The ball gets rolling once you can talk specifically about what you like, doesn't it?

Ikematsu

It does. It provides constant stimulus that allows you to gradually improve the game.

Iwata

With several teams providing this positive stimulus for each other, there is a kind of chain reaction that continually increases the quality of the game. When one team comes up with something good, it inspires other teams to come up with even better ideas.

Miyanaga

With several teams providing this positive stimulus for each other, there is a kind of chain reaction that continually increases the quality of the game. When one team comes up with something good, it inspires other teams to come up with even better ideas.

Ikematsu

There are some things which you can't clearly comprehend when they're just on paper, so you can't really discuss them until they've actually been made. Otherwise it's too hard to see the problems and find the right solutions.

Iwata

All the tweaking and fine-tuning that goes on after the game has taken shape really does provide the momentum that turns it into a finished product that feels like a Zelda game, doesn't it?

Ikematsu

I think so. That's when everything starts to get interesting

Iwata

I think what you are all doing would never be possible by simply following the instructions in some thick specification plan.

Always Striving to Stay True to the Spirit of Zelda
Iwata

We had originally planned to release Twilight Princess at the end of 2005, but as we entered the final period before completion, we decided to postpone the release by a year. This decision had the effect of moving the finish line further away right at the end of the race, so to speak. There was also the added challenge of developing the Wii version, and I think this made things more difficult for everyone. I would like to hear how you felt about the extension of the release date and how the extra time impacted the project. Let's start with Oyama-san.

Kawagoe

Well, as I was in charge of the cinematic sequences, during development I didn’t know much about how the dungeons and other parts of the game I wasn’t involved in were coming along. Due to this, as the project entered its final stages, I play-tested the game with much the same feeling of excitement as a first-time user would have! (laughs) Just the other day, there was a dungeon where, whatever I tried, I couldn't work out how to get out of it. I was playing with this really serious look on my face, but the second I worked out how to do it, I couldn’t help grinning proudly. I was actually a bit worried that the people around me would notice, but to me Zelda is all about that instant when you grin with satisfaction.

Iwata

It’s wanting to experience those feelings of satisfaction that gets you playing in the first place.

Kawagoe

Precisely. I have a strong feeling that Zelda is the game that pays the most attention to those moments.

Iwata

You have to come up with a world with that much depth and variety to get the players to enjoy those moments where they think: "I did it!"

Kawagoe

That’s right. Speaking from the point of view of the cinematic scene director, one important part of my job is to prepare players for what's ahead by conveying various pieces of information to them. I believe movie sequences are important as they act to reinforce the importance of a particular event and act to focus the player's mind.

Iwata

Was there anything different about the movie production for Zelda, compared to those for games you have worked on before?

Kawagoe

One thing which is very important in Zelda games is minimizing the amount of time where the player is simply left watching the screen, unable to press the buttons to influence the action. That is something we have consistently paid a lot of attention to ever since Ocarina.

Iwata

From the perspective of someone making movie sequences, that must be a pretty tall order!

Kawagoe

It certainly is! (laughs) But even in those scenes with long sequences of subtitles which move the story along, we tried to avoid making the player just watch, without being able to control anything. At the very least, we always ensured that the movie sequence wouldn’t carry on until the player had pressed the button to move on to the next message. The idea was that the player should feel they are controlling the game as much as possible. This means that we had to work out what would happen in the movie sequence if the player doesn't press the button, which is no easy task.

Iwata

It must be tough thinking of ways to delay the action when the messages aren't being advanced.

Kawagoe

But there are ways of doing it. As the series has progressed, we have built up more methods of doing that, more know-how. We want to continue to pay attention to this in the future.

Iwata

Even just looking at that one aspect of the movie sequences which you paid particular attention to, I feel it connects to the essence of Zelda. Asakawa-san, what do you think makes a Zelda game?

Asakawa

I think it's the feeling that you are actually taking part in the action, that the things in the game are really happening to you. It’s a game where, once you become absorbed in the adventure, you don’t feel like you’re merely controlling the character, but that it’s really you pushing those blocks around. You really feel like you have solved those puzzles in the dungeons. That strange feeling that it’s actually you in the game isn’t confined to puzzle-solving or battles; you get it when you meet and speak to characters in the game, or visit new places. Well, you could sum it up with the word "fantasy", but that sense of experiencing a world that doesn’t exist is different from the feeling you get watching a film. It all comes down to that feel which is totally unique to Zelda games. This is something which may not be that central to the game, but you also bump into all sorts of oddball characters, the kind that leave you thinking: "No game would normally have someone like that in it!" I think that might also be something you could call "Zelda-esque".

Iwata

Just look at Tingle. His personality is so out of the ordinary that he has even made a solo debut in his own game. For a character like that to be in a serious game like Zelda… Well, it’s not something you would find in other games…

Asakawa

When we're making Zelda games, we always end up putting a lot of effort into characters like that! (laughs) But because of that, events involving those characters end up leaving more of an impression on the player. There’s a really strong desire among us to make events and characters which get the player thinking: “Well, that was a bit weird, but it was funny! I won’t forget that!” It’s one thing to make something that gets the player saying: “What on earth was that?!” It’s another to have something happen during an event that really hooks the player’s attention and draws them in. To me, that’s “Zelda-esque”. I like those things that are slightly off the beaten track.

Iwata

Zelda is a serious game, but a lot of thought seems to have gone into those parts that lie “off the beaten track“.

Asakawa

Right. Those parts also make Zelda what it is.

Iwata

I see. What do you think, Takano-san?

Takano

Yes, it’s something that’s by turns fun then really painful, but ultimately enjoyable. When I play Zelda, that’s how I feel. There are moments which are really painful, but in the end it’s great fun. It’s much the same as making it! There are countless setbacks and challenges that need to be overcome, but when you play the finished version, you really feel a sense of elation. Also, when speaking about the essence of Zelda, I think it's very important that it's not only something the developers are aware of. We also want to get the players to develop a real sense of attachment to Zelda. Because you can say that there are as many Zeldas as there are people playing it, on the development side we often have discussions of whether something is “Zelda-esque” and what exactly that means. We are always seriously grappling with the question of what makes a Zelda game what it is.

Iwata

The essence of a Zelda game may not be easily definable in words but it seems there is a certain common understanding of what it is.

Takano

I think that's absolutely right. (laughs) During development, you would hear the phrase “that's just not Zelda-esque" all the time. On occasions, someone would lose their temper and say something like: “Well, then just what is Zelda-esque anyway?” (laughs) As you'd expect, no one could give an answer to that! But whenever someone came up with a good idea, you'd hear things like: "That's it! That's Zelda!" So even though it wasn't clearly defined, we all naturally developed a shared understanding of what makes something "Zelda-esque." It carries on in this way until we have the finished product; it really is quite a mysterious game in that sense.

Iwata

I see. I think that the only thing you can say for sure is that Zelda is not the sort of game where one person came up with everything on their own. Ideas were born after a large number of people labored over it, and the various elements which were deemed to be “Zelda-esque” acted as a spur to the development of further ideas. I think the game gradually coalesces into something “Zelda-esque” through that process, growing out of the ideas of the people working on it. What do you think, Takizawa-san?

Takizawa

Because of the nature of the work I do, I would say that it is a lot like a miniature Japanese garden. If that garden is designed well enough, then anything that fits into it will by definition be "Zelda-esque”. Taking the garden as the game world, the player's experience will build as they have more and more adventures, and the size of the area they can explore will grow at the same time. If we as developers can stay true to that goal, I think that will mean that anything that you put in that world will be “Zelda-esque”. It is therefore absolutely vital that this “garden” is solidly designed for anything else to be possible.

Iwata

I guess that if you take an overview from the design side of things, you will arrive at that kind of broad conclusion. As far as the design of the game was concerned, was there anything else you paid particular attention to?

Takizawa

For Link's design, we took a lot of care not to make him look too cool. We thought he should retain a kind of unsophisticated air, a certain lack of style. The reasoning behind that was that in Zelda games, Link has all sorts of expressions and actions which are a long way from the so-called dashing hero. His face when he catches a little fish or his expression when he is really surprised... The fact that the player can move freely throughout the “garden” which is the world of Zelda, is one of the game's major strong points. Because of this, there needs to be a rich variety of facial expressions and actions to go with the range of controls available to the player, otherwise the game won't ring true. For this reason, Link sometimes performs actions which would be considered strange if he were a “real person”. These actions are something that a dashing, stylish character really couldn't pull off. So we have designed Link to look cool, but we have done a lot of fine tuning to ensure our aim that he is just cool enough, and no more. For instance, compared to illustrations of Link, the actual character in the game has slightly shorter legs. The legs are only just long enough to give the player that sense of the feel of the ground under their feet when they control Link.

Iwata

Ah, I see! That's very interesting.

Takizawa

Another really fun “Zelda-esque” detail is the fact that as Link is placed at the heart of the game, all of the enemies and non-player characters in the game, as well as all of the action and events, even the very world around him, all communicate this subtle sense of unsophistication. To achieve that didn't entail me giving any major directions for that sort of design. When I was checking the design work, I always had a sense of what I wanted in my mind, but I didn't force that vision on other people. But in spite of this, the various people working on the game's design all made subtle adjustments to achieve that look that borders on being uncool, ensuring that the atmosphere of the game stayed consistent with the central character. After the experience this time round of developing Zelda, I have come to think that this awareness of the game-world as a whole is what makes the game “Zelda-esque”.

Iwata

So what you're saying is that it's not just limited to design? So perhaps, even though you don't know precisely what makes the game Zelda-like, the very fact that everyone is always conscious of this is what contributes the most to making the game “Zelda-esque”? Miyanaga-san, what do you think?

Miyanaga

As you said, I think the fact that the views of everyone working on the project align to a large extent is what really makes the game “Zelda-esque.” Actually, just the other day, I played the game from the start right through to the end. Coming to the end of the game, what I felt keenly was that the game is very human. I don't know if human is really the right word here, but what I'm trying to express is that the game is not in the least bit dry. For instance, you might solve a puzzle but you don't simply feel: Ah, so that item and that item used together move that stone slab... Everything in the game is more human than that. I don't think that's a feeling you can get playing other games.

Iwata

What do you think is it that makes Zelda feel so "human"?

Iwata

Hmm, I wonder. Just to pluck an example out of the air, think of when you blow up a rock with a bomb. It doesn't feel digital… Er, I'm not really expressing myself very well, but I feel that all of the developers who worked on their own individual part of the game really put their heart and soul into everything they did. Although everything has been tied together into one game so you can't see the join between the different sections, the care that has gone into each one is clear and this really adds a great deal to the game.

Iwata

Whether you are a developer or player, perhaps every individual can find themselves reflected in this game.

Miyanaga

You may be right.

Iwata

How about you, Ikematsu-san? What is it that makes a game into a Zelda game?

Ikematsu

I really don't think I'm going to be able to express it very well, so I think I'll pick out a very specific example. There's a scene in the game where Link breaks into a fortress full of enemies. When I was play-testing that part of the game, I crept into the fortress and the enemies were getting ready to eat a wild boar that they were roasting over an open fire. Just as I was about to shoot at the enemies with the bow I had, I suddenly wondered what would happen if I shot the boar. So I gave it a try, and a heart2 came out of it!

Iwata

That's certainly a very "Zelda" touch! (laughs)

Ikematsu

It is, isn't it? (laughs) When you play the game, you often wonder whether something would happen if you do this or that, and try out various things. And Zelda actually accommodates this!

Iwata

Right!

Ikematsu

Of course, the game hasn't been designed to respond to everything you might attempt to do. But there are those points where you think "I bet there's something here!" and some really nice surprise has been worked into the game. The developers always think of things from the player's viewpoint, and I think they are putting those details in the game with a real insight into what the player might do in a given situation.

Iwata

I know exactly what you mean! Perhaps that links in to what Miyanaga-san just said about the "human" feel of Zelda. Thank you all very much for sharing your views on that issue. I'd like to move on to the next question now. With regards to the game's design, this may well be the most "Zelda-esque" topic of all! (laughs) I would like to ask about Miyamoto-san and his habit of "upending the tea table."3

All

(laughter)

Iwata

Now, I wonder who the best person to start with is?

Ikematsu

It may well be Takano-san.

All

(laughter)

Iwata

In that case, let's begin with you, Takano-san!

Takano

Ok, I'll go first! (laughs) As usual with a Zelda project, the last few months entailed a feverish effort to polish the game, and we got it into really good shape. But at the same time, the contents of the game were being changed to a degree that at times was downright frightening. The story, minor features, everything. And needless to say, it was Miyamoto-san's appearance on the scene which caused all this!

Iwata

I can imagine! (laughs)

Takano

With Twilight Princess, the parts of the game that changed most dramatically were the early stages. Miyamoto-san has always put a lot of emphasis on the importance of the first section of games. Since we were all well aware of this, when we were making the early parts of the game along with Miyanaga-san and his team, we had this funny feeling that whatever we made, it would end up changing anyway! (laughs)

Miyanaga

I had the same feeling!

All

(laughter)

Takano

In the case of this game, we of course had to give the player everything they have come to expect from a Zelda game, but on top of that we also had to let them get accustomed to using the Wii Remote. In any case, all of these features were crammed into the start of the game because Miyamoto-san wanted to let the player experience everything they would need early on. Let's just say he wasn't in any mood for compromise.

Iwata

So what you're saying is that the tea table was upended in spectacular style?

Takano

Well, as things turned out, I guess you could say that… Miyamoto-san's "upending" is not simply a matter of him suddenly flipping over the table. On second thought, he does do that as well! (laughs) But usually the way he does things, and the start of the Zelda game this time is a particular case in point, is not to completely overturn the whole table. Rather, he takes it in turn to flip all of the dishes and bowls on the table one by one. (Takano gestures as if turning over plates one after the other)

All

(Roaring laughter)

Takano

(While continuing to gesture as if turning over plates) He'll start like this, flipping a cup at the edge of the table, then work his way round before starting on the plates, then the bowls. Then, if he thinks it's necessary, he'll upend the actual table itself. That's why, when you look at the way everything ends up, it looks as if he has just flipped the entire table. But that isn't the case.

Iwata

So, he doesn't do things the same way as Ittetsu Hoshi?4 (laughs)

Takano

It's not the same. He isn't kicking over the table and saying: "Start again!" (Takano repeats the gesture of turning over plates) No, he's doing this, turning over the plates and bowls saying, change this, and this, and this…

Iwata

And then before you know it, everything's been changed! (laughs)

Takano

Exactly! If you just came in at the end, you'd think he's upended the table in spectacular fashion. But actually, he has put a lot of thought and care into his upending! He really is giving his attention to every detail, from the animation to the fine points of the script. He'll keep going until he decides that there are no more changes to be made and puts the brakes on. Then two hours after he's told that it's all finished, you'll receive an email saying: "I think we should change that line of the script!" And that's in the middle of the night...

Iwata

So he decides to end it, then decides that after all he'll start it again! (laughs)

Takano

It really is incredible to witness. Everyone will be telling him that there is simply no more time left to make changes, and eventually Miyamoto-san will come round to what they're saying and say: "Okay, that's it! All done!" Then you can guarantee that in the middle of the night these e-mails will start appearing, sent to the game designers saying something along the lines of: "I want you to change this. If it's not possible, I'll understand, but..." He's asking if it's possible or not, but he's already been told that it's not possible! In any case, we'll receive any number of e-mails like that, so we'll decide that we have to do it. As this goes on, the staff develop the attitude of waiters and waitresses in a restaurant: "Yes, sir! Right away, sir!"

All

(Roaring laughter)

Takano

But there's no doubt in my mind that because of it, we end up with something that can be called a Zelda game.

Asakawa

But we always get really nervous, especially wondering what he'll spring on us in the last week! (laughs)

Takano

Whenever Miyamoto-san comes walking down the aisle, everyone pays attention to where he will turn off, because whatever team is there is about is have something changed! (laughs) The more experienced staff members are aware of this, so when they see him coming in the distance, they always grin and say: "I wonder where he's headed this time?" You see this all the time, and every time you do you think: "We're really making a Zelda game!" (laughs)

Iwata

It's also an important part of what defines Zelda! (laughs)

Takizawa

You see it all the time, don't you? (laughs)

Takano

All the time! (laughs)

Miyanaga

This time around we got a lot of instructions from him by email. After you've been away from your seat for an hour or so and you notice that Miyamoto-san sent you an email while you were away, you're never sure if you really want to open it or not! (laughs)

Takano

You get mails so late at night you wonder if he ever actually goes home!

Miyanaga

That's right! (laughs)

Takano

When the new employees are first exposed to this, it always comes as a shock to them. They come to us and timidly say: "He said that there wouldn't be any more changes, right?" But we haven't got an answer for them, either! (laughs) So we just say something like: "Well, it's difficult to know..."

Iwata

But with this project, I think that Miyanaga-san was very careful with organizing things at the beginning of the project to make sure nothing would be upended by Miyamoto-san. Did he still find something to upend?

Miyanaga

Well, let's just say that he's very good at finding the places you haven't given enough attention.

All

(laughter)

Takano

He always points out things that have obviously been overlooked.

Miyanaga

Always. You try to predict what he'll notice and take the precaution of implementing something that will pass his inspection, but even then he will spot something that you hadn't considered at all. Regarding the sound or the animation, for example, if something doesn't seem quite right to him, he'll say: "What's this? You haven't finished have you?"

Asakawa

He never misses those really small details.

Takano

And it's the small things that make a difference in the end. By just adding that one sound, the entire effect changes. Those are the kinds of results that you can only get from Miyamoto-san.

Iwata

Did he have much to say about the dungeons?

Ikematsu

Yes, quite a bit. He's very aware of what will be difficult for the player to understand or do in the game. He will always point out something along the lines of: "Do you think the player will understand this?" Often, the issues he pointed out were things I was already aware of, but I had to stop working on them because the deadline was approaching. But when Miyamoto-san points something out, it's actually a great help as I can then use that to ask the staff to change it.

All

(laughter)

Iwata

So you team leaders are both victims and accomplices at the same time! (laughs)

Ikematsu

That's right. Honestly, there are times I want him to come and point something out because then I don't have to say it myself! (laughs)

Iwata

Takizawa-san, how about the design side of things?

Takizawa

Well, he didn't have much to say at the end of the project, but he did point out one thing to me just before the deadline for the playable demo of Twilight Princess that we showed at E3 in 2005. As far as we were concerned, what he pointed out would never have been a problem in previous Zelda games. What he noticed was that even though we had gone to the trouble of making Link look realistic, we used the same animation for climbing up both ladders and ivy walls. And he was right. We thought it wouldn't be a problem because these two actions used the same animation in all previous Zelda games, but in the end that's not really a good reason to do it that way. So we reviewed the demo for about a week and identified a number of things that made us think: "He'll definitely notice this! We better change it or we're in trouble!" In the end, we cleaned it up quite a bit.

Iwata

It was that fresh perspective Miyamoto-san gave you that allowed you to notice different things, wasn't it?

Takizawa

It really was. I think you just need to look at it objectively, but when you're the one working on it you never notice those things.

Iwata

What about with the movies, Kawagoe-san? Did he point anything out to you?

Kawagoe

Well, there were a few changes that accompanied the large-scale changes to the opening of the game. For example, we altered some of the movies to subtly refer to the relationships between certain villagers and so on, but there weren't any major changes

Iwata

One thing I have always admired about Miyamoto-san is how incredible he is at coming up with ideas that make use of the existing materials when he makes his criticisms. Most people who upend tables are more likely to throw away those materials, but Miyamoto-san is very aware of how wasteful that is. Even if his suggestion means that something can't be used in the same place anymore, he makes other suggestions about where else it can be used.

Iwata

That's right. None of the movies were thrown out.

Kawagoe

It's another thing about him that doesn't really match the image that is portrayed by the phrase "upending the tea table."

Iwata

One thing I have always admired about Miyamoto-san is how incredible he is at coming up with ideas that make use of the existing materials when he makes his criticisms. Most people who upend tables are more likely to throw away those materials, but Miyamoto-san is very aware of how wasteful that is. Even if his suggestion means that something can't be used in the same place anymore, he makes other suggestions about where else it can be used.

Kawagoe

That's right. None of the movies were thrown out.

Iwata

It's another thing about him that doesn't really match the image that is portrayed by the phrase "upending the tea table."

Miyanaga

Well, I think that compared to previous Zelda titles, there weren't really any big changes.

Takano

There weren't any real fundamental changes, were there?

Miyanaga

I'm not saying that it was like the overturning of cups and plates that was mentioned a moment ago, but things were indeed sorted out one by one.

Takano

Yes, one at a time. It's like playing Othello against someone who really knows what they're doing. You think you're winning at first, but before you know what hit you, all the pieces are black.

Iwata

Before you know what's happening, you haven’t got any pieces left! (laughs)

Asakawa

That's just what it's like! It really is like Othello! (laughs)

Takano

I know! And if someone else only sees the end of the game, they think you were beaten really badly. But what your opponent really did was methodically take each corner, one by one.

Iwata

What everyone always says about Miyamoto-san is: "First he makes sure that you can't escape, and then he hits you where it really counts!"

All

(laughter)

Takizawa

When he points something out, you really can't argue as you realize he's absolutely right.

Takano

The older developers often say that they basically know what Miyamoto-san will say because they've known him for so long, but to be honest with you, I still don't have a clue!

All

(laughter)

Iwata

All right, I would like to move on to my last question. Of all the things you worked on for this project, I would like to hear what you like the most, something that you put a lot of effort into. Of course it depends on the content, but I would like to include videos for our readers if they can be shown to the public. Let's start with Kawagoe-san.

Kawagoe

Well, since I worked on the movies, I don't think there's anything that can be shown…

Iwata

Well, just tell me what you want to show and let me decide that.

Kawagoe

The part that I genuinely like the best is the movie in the latter half of the game where [............].

Iwata

There is no way we're going to reveal that now

All

(laughter)

Iwata

Well, we've got the equipment all set up here, so let's go ahead and watch the scene. (The movie is shown)

Kawagoe

The reason you can hear a horse neighing in the background is because as a developer it was actually a little embarrassing to make such an un-Zelda-like movie, and the neighing of the horse is the expression of the embarrassment we felt in making the movie.

Iwata

Ah, I see. That's a very nice touch. But…we still can't show it.

Kawagoe

I know! (laughs)

Iwata

Thank you very much. How about you, Asakawa-san?

Asakawa

Well, a lot of things come to mind! (laughs) But I put considerable effort into a particular shop in the game. When the player first goes to this shop,  it's a rather expensive shop that sells only exclusive goods. Let me start by showing you that. (The exclusive shop is shown) So that's what it's like at first. In the later stages of the game, if the player clears a certain sub-event, then it becomes like this. (What happens later is shown)

Iwata

Th-that's! (laughs) You put everything together for this?

Asakawa

That's right! (laughs)

Takizawa

I told her she was overdoing it! (laughs)

Asakawa

I worked on this with Takano-san. It's something we put a huge amount of effort into! (laughs)

Takano

Yes, well our collaboration ended up going off in a strange direction.

Iwata

So, you wanted to do this so badly that you put that much energy into making both shops? (laughs)

Takano

That's right.

Iwata

All those hours you put in must have cost a pretty penny too! (laughs)

Asakawa

Takano-san was really particular about the way this shop-keeper should move. He would actually mimic the movement, saying "Not like that, like this!" (laughs)

Iwata

What, like that? (laughs)

Takano

That's it!

Kawagoe

Takano-san also composed the music for it.

Iwata

You composed the music?

Takano

Well, not exactly…

Kawagoe

Minegishi-san in the sound section created a musical score of the tune Takano-san hummed to him! (laughs)

Iwata

That wasn't exactly cheap either, was it? (laughs)

Iwata

So, can we show the video of this one, too?

Iwata

…… I don't think so.

All

(laughter)

Asakawa

In that case, I'd like to mention something that we can show. There's a girl in this game called Agitha who loves bugs, and I really like the way she was designed. She's dressed like a little girl, but with a gothic twist, and I think female players will find her appealing. I don't think there's been a character like her in the Zelda series as of yet, and I hope everyone likes her.

Iwata

I think we can show that to the readers. What would you like to show everyone, Takano-san?

Takano

I would like to recommend a place in the game called Hidden Gulch. I really wanted to use the theme of an old Western cowboy film this time around. What's the best way to describe it? The player uses the bow and arrow to take down the enemies that are hiding in the shadows of the buildings, one after the other. Well, it's probably best if you see it for yourselves. (The Hidden Gulch event is shown)

Iwata

It's just like a Western! (laughs)

Takano

You get into it more than you would expect. When I first said I wanted to do a Western everyone just stared at me with blank faces, but once I started working on it with the intention of making it a sub-event, everyone really got on board with the idea.

Iwata

This is only a sub-event? That's a shame!

Takano

Actually, it did make its way into the main story line… This is also true of the exclusive shop we discussed a moment ago, but I tend to put my efforts into things that aren't part of the main story! (laughs) I think I have a tendency to do that because the other part of my job, which is organizing the story, is rather serious business.

Iwata

Well, I think the fact that you go the extra mile to create events such as this one is part of the essence of Zelda, too! (laughs) Takizawa-san, how about you?

Takizawa

Well, I worked on the lighting of a particular scene and it was a period where I was regularly working right through the night. When I watched the movie after I adjusted the lighting, I was actually moved to tears in spite of myself! (laughs)

Iwata

I have a feeling that we won't be able to show this scene to the readers.

Takizawa

Well, it's a scene where […………].

Iwata

There's no way we can reveal that here!

Takizawa

I thought as much! (laughs)

Iwata

We'll just have to ask our readers to look forward to knowing that there's such a heart-wrenching scene waiting for them! (laughs) What about you, Miyanaga-san?

Miyanaga

I particularly like the scene where [……] wakes up.

Iwata

[……]? Is [……] in this game?

Miyanaga

As one of the dungeon bosses.

Iwata

…… Then that's out of the question, as well.

Ikematsu

OK, I've got something to suggest that I'm sure can be shown

Iwata

By all means, go ahead! (laughs)

Ikematsu

In Twilight Princess, it was possible to put more characters on the screen at the same time than was possible in previous Zelda games. I was so happy about this that I ended up making a lot of scenes like this one. This is a place in one of the dungeons where there are a lot of enemies. (Sample gameplay is shown)

Iwata

There are a lot of them, aren’t there? Oh, wow, look at that!

Ikematsu

And here, too.

Iwata

Definitely.

Ikematsu

And not only are there a lot of enemies, but they can be taken care of all at once, like this.

Iwata

Ahh, I see. Zelda games are fun for the people who are watching, too. It's interesting just watching someone else play, isn't it?

Ikematsu

It is. Oh, this part is a little gross. An insect-like enemy is squirming around here…

Iwata

Oh! (laughs)

Ikematsu

It might not have been in the best taste! (laughs)

Iwata

No, I think those kinds of things are perfectly fine. You might say that Zelda is the type of game that allows for these things, that it caters to a wide range of tastes.

Kawagoe

Something I really like along those lines is Ooccoo.

Asakawa

Yes, Ooccoo! I just love her, too!

Iwata

Ooccoo? What's that?

Kawagoe

Put simply, she's basically just a warp item that lets you temporarily leave dungeons, but she's been made into a character who is visually...striking. (Sample gameplay is shown)

Asakawa

There she is, Ooccoo. The thing that's sticking its face out of the jar.

Iwata

Oh! (laughs)

kawagoe

I was actually a little shocked when I saw the design for this! (laughs)

Takizawa

The basis for this design was a doodle that one of the illustrators, Nakano-san, drew during a meeting.

Iwata

……a doodle?

Takizawa

Then we had this exchange where Nakano-san said to me: "Take a look at what I came up with." I had a look said: "…Let's go with it!"

Asakawa

The instant he saw it, it was a done deal! (laughs)

Iwata

… OK, thank you all very much.

Iwata

Oh, and Ooccoo has a son!

Iwata

OK! That's enough for today!

All

(laughter)

Iwata

… By the way, why is she called Ooccoo?

Ikematsu

It's kind of a mystery.

Iwata

……

All

……

Iwata

Well, I'm sure that the exchange we just had is also a part of the essence of Zelda!

All

(laughter)

Iwata

Thank you all for your time today.

All

Thank you very much!

Make it 120% Zelda
Miyamoto

So, how did the interviews with the staff go? Did they tell you all sorts of awful stories about me?

Iwata

You knew you were quite welcome to join us! But in the end you decided not to come along.

Miyamoto

I thought they’d find it easier to speak without me there. I did want to hear what they had to say though.

Iwata

You missed some really interesting stuff! There were lots of different points of view about your “upending of the tea table.”1 (laughs) Some people said that this time nothing like that happened, while others disagreed and said that one by one all the plates and bowls were overturned, and before they knew it everything had been changed! (laughs)

Miyamoto

I don’t think I did any table-upending this time around, did I Aonuma-san?

Aonuma

Hmmm… Let me see… (laughs)

Iwata

Perhaps you didn’t do it as aggressively as Ittetsu Hoshi2, but a lot of people said that in the end they realised that everything had been overturned without them realising it was happening! (laughs)

Aonuma

That’s right, this time you did your upending in a slightly more considerate manner.

Miyamoto

No, this time everyone did their jobs so well that I only had to do a bit of rearranging.

Aonuma

There you go again! (laughs)

Iwata

What you mean is that instead of upending the table, you just rearranged the plates? (laughs)

Miyamoto

That’s it! Just a bit of rearranging! You know, let’s put the rice here, and the side dishes over here…

Aonuma

Well, everyone has their own interpretation of things. People like me who are well used to Miyamoto-san didn't bother resisting.

Iwata

Some of the staff were saying that it was more like a game of Othello, with you overturning all of the pieces one by one…

Miyamoto

Ah, Othello! Well yes, I guess it was a bit like that. But I didn’t really overturn anything. To me, “overturning” would mean coming out with something like: “Actually, Link was a woman all along!” (laughs)

Iwata

Oh, don't be ridiculous! (laughs

Miyamoto

“The best way to resolve this would be to make Link into a woman!” That kind of thing… (laughs) I didn’t do anything like that!

Aonuma

You're right, there was nothing like that. (Noticing demo screens from Twilight Princess) Did you play Zelda on Wii during the interviews?

Iwata

That’s right. I got the developers to show me their favourite scenes from the game. Unfortunately, most of them we couldn’t reveal to the public yet! (laughs)

Aonuma

This is the final version, right? Ah yes, it is. I’m glad it's the right one

Miyamoto

We were making changes right up to the end, weren’t we? (laughs)

Iwata

This is a good opportunity to discuss the start-up time for the game. From turning on the console to actually playing Zelda, how long does it take in the final version?

Miyamoto

Well, when you start Wii, a screen showing you how to hold the remote, and health and safety warning screens appear. It takes time to read those, so it’s not easy to give the precise number of seconds it takes. But I can say that it feels as if the game begins quickly. Shall we give it a go?

Iwata

If you insert the Game Disc after switching on the console, it takes a little time to recognise the disc. But if you switch off the console with the disc still inserted, it will start up faster the next time you want to play.

Miyamoto

Yes, I'd like users to notice all the efforts the staff have made, for instance in speeding up the time that the player can get back into the game, using Flash Memory.

Iwata

I really get the sense of it starting up smoothly. But ever since we settled on the development concept for Wii, the two of us have constantly stressed to the development team that we should be aiming for a three second load-up time. We haven't got there yet though, have we?

Miyamoto

Not yet. It takes longer than I thought it would to go from the Channels to the Wii Menu, or from one Channel to another. It bothers me a bit that it's slower than the time it takes to flick between channels on a TV.

Iwata

Yes, I'm particularly concerned about the time it takes to return to the Wii Menu. As Wii has a function which allows the system to be updated both through the Internet or disc media, so even the customers who buy the Wii early on will always be able to have it updated.

Miyamoto

But even with things as they are at present, there aren't many devices that can launch a web browser from the time the power is switched on as quickly as Wii does.

Iwata

How about the time it takes to read data during games?

Miyamoto

It depends on what's going on in the game at a given point, but it takes roughly between two and four seconds to go from one scene to the next. Once you've actually started the game, it's all very smooth. Wii Sports and Wii Play are both especially good on that score.

Aonuma

With Zelda, there are absolutely no scenes which need anything like a loading bar on-screen. If we had needed something like that, I would have made it but as it turned out, it wasn't necessary.

Iwata

That's good news. I think fans will be very glad to hear that. Okay, let's start the interview proper. Thank you both for joining me.

Miyamoto

It's my pleasure.

Aonuma

I'm actually a bit nervous! (laughs)

Iwata

Normally, I get everyone to introduce themselves at the start, but that is hardly necessary for the two of you! (laughs) Eiji Aonuma-san, you worked as the director on The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess and Shigeru Miyamoto-san, you were the producer. Let's begin with you, Aonuma-san. What was the starting point on Twilight Princess?

Aonuma

The initial theme I had in mind was naturally to make the first realistic Zelda since Ocarina of Time. But I didn't dive in with only that aim in mind. I wanted to shake up the Zelda concept a little. That's why early on, I brought up the suggestion that this time Link should transform into a wolf. I really felt that we needed a new twist of some sort. As for why I chose a wolf, it really was simply what occurred to me at the time. My intention was for it to just be one suggestion to get the ball rolling when we were discussing what kind of things we might do. I was curious as to how seriously everyone would take it. That's what I was thinking when I threw the idea out there: "This time, let's make him into a wolf!" Miyamoto-san really gave me a piece of his mind after that! (laughs) I remember him telling me: "It's a lot harder to make a four-legged animal than it is to make a two-legged human, you know!" (laughs)

Iwata

If you compare what you had in mind then with the final product we have today, what are the biggest differences?

Aonuma

Well, as you can imagine, I had no idea it would turn into such an enormous project.

Iwata

You mean you didn't intend it to grow to be quite this size?

Aonuma

At the very least, at the start I didn't envisage the project expanding to the scale it eventually did. But it seems that in the minds of the staff, they wanted to make a very big Zelda, and as development continued, the project grew and grew. At one point, in the middle of development, I actually thought: "This is getting a bit out of hand." I made various attempts to rein in the project, but when something has developed naturally to that size, it becomes somewhat difficult to apply the brakes. At that point, all we could do was fill in the space by cramming it full of more fun elements for the player to enjoy. We kept adding more and more to the game, but the size caused a lot of trouble, right up to the end. Of course, this is not a bad thing, and in the end it has become a Zelda game which has retained a sense of proportion. It's undeniably big, but I believe all those fun elements which make up this world justify this size. Now that we have finished, I feel that with a generation accustomed to watching epic films like Lord of the Rings, when you want to design a convincing world, that sort of vast scale becomes necessary. But it's a fact that putting it all together was a challenge, and I sensed how much I still had to learn as a director.

Iwata

But the final product has been put together successfully?

Aonuma

Absolutely. I can say that we made a Zelda that we can present to the world with real confidence. But to accomplish that, I had to get a lot of people to lend me a hand.

Iwata

So you called on the expertise of Miyamoto-san yet again?

Aonuma

I certainly did! (laughs) I tried to make sure that everything was neatly arranged on top of the tea table for him. (laughs) But as the project grew, unexpected problems started manifesting themselves in unexpected forms, and it became impossible to handle each and every one of them. When Miyamoto-san began fixing various problems, there were plenty of cases where I thought: "I wanted to fix that, but didn't have the time..." But when it came to getting the game into its final form, it is precisely because so many people lent their assistance to the project that I think we have really come up with something special. I am entirely satisfied with how that part of the process went

Iwata

The release of Twilight Princess was postponed by a year from the originally planned date, wasn't it? That was actually the very first time I have ever suggested to Miyamoto-san that we delay the release of a game by a year! (laughs) I was very aware that it would be a real challenge to complete the project on time, but most of all I knew we had to do everything to ensure that this would be our masterpiece, the greatest Zelda of all time.

Aonuma

One of your key phrases was that this should be "120% Zelda", wasn't it?

Iwata

I did say that, didn't I? (laughs) If you forced me to tell you precisely what was 100% Zelda and what was 120% Zelda, I would struggle to answer, but basically I wanted us to make the best Zelda ever. So as well as coming out with slightly unreasonable demands like "Make it 120% Zelda!", I also made the proposal to delay the release by a year. Aonuma-san, how did you react to that delay?

Aonuma

I really felt bad for all the fans who were waiting for the game, but to be completely honest I was grateful for it. At the time the decision to postpone the release date was taken, we had an abundance of really interesting material for the game but we hadn't finished tying it all together. Of course there were parts of the game that were complete but there were also lots of places which simply weren't yet playable at that time.

Iwata

When you showed that playable version at E3, I saw just how many great elements were in the game but that they were still in a state of disarray. You faced a big challenge bringing them all together, didn't you?

Aonuma

Right. For that reason, I was very grateful for the extra year. I don't know how the other staff reacted to the news though. Perhaps they felt that even though they had worked so hard, they still had another year to go. But I think that in order to fully realise everything they had come up with, that extra time was vital.

Iwata

Well, I have asked a total of twelve members of staff about this, and without exception they have said that they were glad about the postponement.

Aonuma

Is that right? That's a relief! (laughs)

Iwata

Of course, it wouldn't be true to say that everyone was looking forward to another year of such demanding work. Also, there were some who said that if the release date was going to be changed, it would've been better to inform everyone of this earlier. But even those people thought it was a good idea.

Aonuma

Ah, I see. But it was really tough, with or without the postponement of the release date. The demand to "Make it 120% Zelda!" is really not an exaggeration, if you think about the level of expectation the fans have. As we have to produce something that lives up to those expectations, simply giving ourselves longer to do it is not in itself something to be pleased about.

Iwata

Miyamoto-san, when the decision to postpone the game's release was made, how did you feel about the Zelda game as it was at that point?

Miyamoto

I thought it was enjoyable, but that it was really a long way from being ready! (laughs) When I thought about where we needed to focus our attention in the time we had left, my head started spinning.

Aonuma

(Embarrassed laugh)But that was exactly the state things were in.

Iwata

Now, a year down the line, it's actually a surprise that it's such a solidly put-together game. In fact, until I came to interview all of the developers, I had imagined that a game of the quality and size of Zelda would be produced with strict orders being handed down from above. Without that, I thought that a project of this scale wouldn't come together. But listening to everyone, it seemed that contrary to what I had thought, everyone came up with their own individual ideas for the game. It seems that somehow everyone had their own conception of what the essence of Zelda was, even if this wasn't expressed in words. Using that nebulous idea as a sort of filter, it is the final fusing together of these individual ideas that gives the game its final form. That's one thing to do with twenty or thirty people, but when you're talking about a huge project with over seventy people, it's incredible to think that this process worked. Aonuma-san, what do you think?

Aonuma

I absolutely agree with you on that. The idea of what defines the essence of Zelda becomes the most important thing. That is really the only absolutely fundamental criterion which we can then use to build on. But as you said, that isn't something which is clearly defined. Personally, I can't put into words what the essence of Zelda is, and while I know that I should be able to, I still couldn't give you a clear definition.

Iwata

Don't worry. Over the course of these interviews, I've been asking everyone what makes a game "Zelda-esque." As you can imagine, the answers have been somewhat confused, and no one has really been able to define it perfectly. But having said that, it is absolutely clear that there is something that resembles a set of values that is common to everyone who worked on the project.

Aonuma

I think that's true. After all, without that we wouldn't have been able to make the game. I'm not talking about a set formula, but I do think that if clear guidelines existed, I might be able to say "Make Zelda like this!" and the game would be developed in line with those instructions. But there is absolutely nothing like that, and Zelda games simply can't be made in that way.

Iwata

Putting together a "How to Make Zelda" guide would be inconceivable.

Aonuma

Absolutely inconceivable. All that we can say to the staff during development are things along the lines of: "Well, we've racked our brains and come up with all the Zelda games this far, so keep that in mind, and keep racking your brains!" (laughs) In that sense, it is possible to give the staff the freedom to get on with developing the game. Needless to say, that doesn't mean I simply left everything to them. Our role is to let the young staff on each of the Zelda projects come up with their own ideas, without being overly influenced by previous Zelda titles, then take those ideas and make them work successfully within the context of the game. But at the end, the more experienced developers have to tighten the screws, so to speak, so all the elements in the game fit together. Without experience, it's extremely difficult to gauge things like how far to let the staff work freely on their own ideas, or how to put the game together in a way that will appeal to the user. It's quite easy to keep coming up with ideas, and expanding the size of the game. It's another thing to decide how best to connect those ideas. As Miyamoto-san often says, that is the part you really need to develop "a feel" for.

Iwata

I see… Miyamoto-san, when you're asked what defines Zelda, how do you normally respond? Can you give a definite answer?

Miyamoto

Sure. For me, what makes a game "Zelda-esque" is actually much the same as what makes a game "Mario-esque."

Iwata

And what might that be?

The Hands-On Approach
(Continued from previous interview)

I see… Miyamoto-san, when you're asked what defines Zelda, how do you normally respond? Can you give a definite answer?

Miyamoto

Sure. For me, what makes a game "Zelda-esque" is actually much the same as what makes a game "Mario-esque."

Iwata

And what might that be?

Miyamoto

Basically, I think it's the way these games respect our customers' intelligence. When our customers play our games, they will do all the logical things they would do as if they were doing something in real life, and if there's something that does not seem to be working the way they should be, they'll get upset. So, the fundamental principle of Zelda is that these logical elements must be neatly integrated into the game. When they're not, it no longer becomes Zelda. That's when I say "Wrong! This isn't Zelda!" So when I'm upset, it's on behalf of the players who would think "This is unbelievable! What's the matter with this game?" (laughs) I have always made games on the basis that my voice is the voice of the player. And if we released it without making adjustments, the situation would ultimately be a lot more serious if we angered our customers. To me this point is absolutely fundamental, and it’s the same whether it’s Zelda or Mario. While both games have that attitude as their foundation, I would say that Mario is fun in a very accessible, immediate way while Zelda really gives you that expansive feeling that you are developing along with the game. Those are really the only differences between the two; fundamentally they are actually the same.

Iwata

Ah, I see.

Miyamoto

It’s fine if someone really likes Zelda’s story: in fact it’s great. But if a person like that starts to work on developing a Zelda game, they won’t necessarily be an ideal match for the project. Something else that is vital to Zelda is that everything fits together seamlessly. This isn’t easy to explain, but what I mean is that with all of the ideas in the game tightly woven together, the various elements of the game will perfectly complement the terrain and scenery. The balance of "sparsity" and "density" in the game works really well. This is something that's important in Zelda. A real challenge with Twilight Princess was that as development moved from the earlier stages into the latter half, that balance was lost. The 3D Modeling Team was steadily expanding the size of the game, but the actual content of the game was not keeping pace. The longer the 3D modeling and the content remain out of step, the more sparse the game becomes. Or, game content starts interfering with other content and spoiling it. Trying to get that under control is a real challenge. Putting it another way, perhaps it's controlling the balance of "sparsity" and "density" that actually makes a Zelda game. Maybe this isn't limited to Zelda... Maybe it's the "Nintendo method" of making games...

Iwata

What you mean is that it's the "Miyamoto method" of making games!

All

(laughter)

Miyamoto

Even if we gathered all the developers together to discuss it, we couldn't get everyone to fully understand what that method actually is. Nor can I adequately communicate it from a position giving instructions from outside the main development process. From the outside, I can see various things on a surface level and could make comments about them, but the person who created those things might feel: "That wasn't what I was trying to do!" We'd always be on different wavelengths. But when I take a more hands-on approach and we all start working together to get the game into its final form, things start to click. When I'm looking at the development process from the outside, even if I were to give them a list of elements in the game which were lacking that Zelda essence, I don't think it would get across what was required. But once I have actually got the team working on implementing these changes to the game, if the developers were to look at that list of parts lacking the essence of Zelda, I think they would understand what had been necessary

Iwata

As they see the changes being made to the game, they come to understand. The fact that our core developers have all been through that experience really makes a difference when it comes to making Zelda.

Aonuma

I think that's true. So, for instance early on in the development process, when young developers encounter Miyamoto-san's input from the outside, a lot of them probably think things like: "Do we really have to pay attention to such tiny details?" or "Surely we don't have to worry that much about something like that?" However, when everything starts fitting together into its final form, they understand what he was doing and they'll say: "Ah, I get it! It turns out this way, so we really did need to do that from the start!" When they were working on making the game, they couldn't see this. Miyamoto-san spoke about respecting our customers' intelligence, but of course, those who were developing the game have never meant to belittle our customers in any way. They just can't help losing sight of how players are going to react to certain things in the game.

Iwata

As development progresses, game developers steadily lose the ability to judge how someone coming fresh to the game, with absolutely no previous knowledge, will feel when they play. That's why I think that Miyamoto-san joining the project towards the end is, in a sense, a very rational way of doing things. If Miyamoto-san was involved from the start, I think he would find it more difficult to see clearly how people will respond to a game the first time they play it.

Aonuma

Right. I developed a set rule when Miyamoto-san pointed things out about a game: "If Miyamoto-san says the same thing three times, we're definitely going to have to make a change!"

All

(laughs)

Aonuma

If he pointed something out once, I wouldn't rush to fix things. I would decide that for the time being, I'd rely on my own interpretation of the issue and make a judgment accordingly. But while I was thinking about it, he'd then point the issue out for a second time. Now that it had been mentioned twice, I'd be thinking that he really wanted to make that change, but I'd still be formulating a plan. Then, as there were other pressing issues requiring attention, I'd set the issue to one side for the time being. At that moment, Miyamoto-san would ask: "Why haven't you done it yet?" That was the third warning! (laughs) From then on, that issue would take top priority. That has been how things have worked up to now, but this time I didn't really have that luxury. The first time something was pointed out, I felt that we had no choice but to change it.

Iwata

So you did it without waiting to be told three times? (laughs)

Aonuma

That's right.

Miyamoto

You're finally seeing things my way, right? (laughs)

Iwata

Did you keep getting "sob story e-mails" from Miyamoto-san?1

Aonuma

Ah, the "sob story e-mails"! Did the young developers mention those when you interviewed them? (laughs)

Iwata

They did! (laughs)

Aonuma

But in my case, I wasn't just getting "sob story e-mails," I was also getting messages sent to my mobile phone with instructions as to what should be changed! I'd be on the train to work in the morning, when my mobile would beep and there'd be a message from Miyamoto-san: "About that feature we were discussing...!" (laughs)

Iwata

(laughs)

Iwata

And it wouldn't just be one; I was getting four, one right after the other! I actually started running on the train in the direction it was headed, thinking: "I've got work to do!" (laughs) What I heard later was that somehow when Miyamoto-san had been sending those messages, he'd actually been in an important meeting!

Iwata

He was sending messages on his mobile phone about changing features while he was in a meeting? (laughs)

Miyamoto

Well, um...you know, there was no time to be lost! The seconds were ticking away… (laughs)

Aonuma

I suppose that's true. In any case, it's a fact that if Miyamoto-san thinks of something, he wants to tell you straight away; he can't wait to tell you in person. So a lot of his instructions this time came in the form of e-mail.

Miyamoto

Right, it was the first time I have done it through e-mail.

Aonuma

When we were working on Wind Waker, he would simply hand me two-page documents with all his comments gathered together, saying: "There you go!"

Miyamoto

In the past I would often gather my comments in one document and hand them to the people in charge. I also used to make a point of avoiding going directly to the development area and to only deal with team leaders. That's because the management of the development team had been entrusted to them. This time round however, there were of course a huge number of people involved as well as a lot of young developers. That's why I thought that rather than all these instructions appearing out of nowhere, it was better if the developers could actually see the process behind these decisions.

Iwata

I see.

Aonuma

This time there were a large number of staff, so if all your instructions were given to me alone, for instance, even making all the necessary arrangements and laying down preliminary plans would have entailed a lot of work. In that sense the system this time, where your instructions were communicated directly to all the people involved, was a good idea. All the people in charge of a particular task would see your e-mails and were able to give feedback based on their individual take on things. As a result of this, I think we were able to decide quite efficiently what we should do next.

Miyamoto

An ulterior motive I had when I chose that way of doing things was that all the staff, not just the people in charge, would understand the criteria we use when assessing a problem. This meant that the criteria the developers applied to situations became standardised. Subsequent problems that came up were then dealt with much more swiftly. Naturally, as the number of people on a project increases, it becomes more difficult to have clear discussions of these issues.

Iwata

But with dozens of people, even when you allow everyone to keep up with what's going on, it's still very difficult to standardise that criteria.

Aonuma

It is.

Miyamoto

That's why I was adamant that people be made aware of the entire background and decision-making process, not simply the final conclusion or instructions that come out of it. But even so...

Aonuma

Even so, there were lots of e-mails which someone involved with Zelda for the first time wouldn't be able to make head nor tail of.

Miyamoto

Right. If they hadn't been following the discussions closely, they would have been totally lost! (laughs)

Aonuma

But as everyone already knows they won't be able to make sense of the e-mails, lots of the staff would come and ask for clarification: "What on earth is Miyamoto-san trying to say with this?"

Iwata

Well, the important thing is that they came and asked for clarification. At least then you can give them an explanation.

Aonuma

Right. Even if they don't fully grasp the meaning of the instructions, everyone will have some idea of what it's about. They can then come to have it clarified, saying something like: "I think it's saying something like this…" In this way, everyone became steadily more proactive in their attitudes so I think the way he did things this time was really positive for all the staff, as well as being a great help for me.

Miyamoto

Was it really?

Aonuma

Yes, it helped a great deal.

Miyamoto

That's good to hear! (laughs)

Focusing on the Player's Perspective
Iwata

Miyamoto-san, how did you feel when you became fully involved in the development process?

Miyamoto

That's a difficult one. I hope it's okay to speak frankly?

Iwata

By all means.

Miyamoto

Well, I've been involved in developing several prototypes throughout the course of the project, so there weren't any serious problems, but... Firstly, the leaders hadn't been checking the progress of the staff. Many staff members weren't able to properly execute the most fundamental parts of their assignments. They weren't able to play catch yet; in fact, they hadn't even got the gist, such as catching the ball in the middle of the glove... Sloppy work, you might say. That's why I've mostly been helping by explaining to them clearly so they could better understand what they are supposed to do in order to correctly execute their assignments. There's one thing I've been grateful for, and that is the level of motivation these people have. The cause of the sloppiness wasn't due to people's lack of motivation, but more that they were stuck in a rut due to the huge amount of work they had.

Iwata

I see. You could say they didn't know where to direct their focus?

Miyamoto

Yes, that's it. Because they were already highly motivated, simply by pointing out what task they should be doing, they were able to make significant progress. And so we've managed to finish in around four months what would have taken around half a year. I was a little concerned at first, but the level of motivation within the development team has really helped.

Aonuma

When you have a lot of individual issues to deal with, it becomes difficult to visualise the whole picture. That's when Miyamoto-san comes in with a clear idea of how things should be, and points us in a certain direction. Then, whether we fully understand what he's doing or not, we become able to move forward. When we do this, we catch a glimpse of the bigger picture. We feel a very real sense that if we are just able to continue like this, we'll get to the end of the project. The problem is that before we reach that point, there are far too many choices to be made, and things become easily confused while we are trying out various ideas.

Miyamoto

Everyone was feeling rather anxious and knew this situation wasn't good, so the main staff members got together to try to sort it out. Although there were some good results, there were some negative ones too. For instance, people lost their sense of individual responsibility. There were a huge amount of decisions which they said had "been made by all of them" and that therefore shouldn't be changed. My answer to this was: "You couldn't all have decided, somebody must've made the decision! Who was it?" When I asked why something wasn't completed, I was often told that it was being adjusted. I would say "the adjustments should've been done by now. Shouldn't you start by saying sorry?" (laughs) I suppose in that sense, I have been a little on the strict side. You have to start by getting people to take responsibility and be able to say: "It isn't done yet, I'm sorry. I take the responsibility." I just think that if we could all understand this, we could work together on solving the problems. Once we fix them, it's finished. It's as simple as that and then we can all relax. Then when we give it to focus testing groups we get a more positive response.

Iwata

They have said that the changes you instigated really improved the game.

Miyamoto

Once we've got all of that straightened out, the rest of the project becomes a process of simply making one small change after the other, carefully editing sound effects or fine-tuning things.

Iwata

Some refer to it as "Miyamoto Magic", but as far as you're concerned, you're just carefully working through everything that obviously needs to be done.

Miyamoto

Exactly, there is no other way. One other thing that I've noticed is that the younger members of staff, who've yet to work on that many projects, don't have a very clear idea of what it takes to bring a project to completion. With video games, the people who truly bring a project to completion are the senior staff such as the director, not the entire team. Those people involved in the project just seem to rush towards the end and cross the finish line without having a clear idea of what's happening. With time, those people develop a clearer idea of what is required to finish off a game properly. I think the company has gained a significant amount through the development of Zelda, as the number of staff we have with these skills has grown.

Aonuma

Yes, we've learned a great deal about the process of completing a project.

Miyamoto

I believe there is a certain way to finish a project, just like there's a way to win in sport.

Iwata

Like getting used to completing them?

Miyamoto

Bringing something to completion becomes really fun. Before you reach the final stage, you can get obsessive and feel like you've got to add more and more. This desire to expand the game is overwhelming, so you find yourself unable to grasp that sense of achievement that you get from completing a project.

Aonuma

It's just that, until you've reached that point it's vital that you are being pointed in the right direction for making the transition from a state of disorder to being able to experience that thrill of completing something. This is what sets the quality of the work apart, and where Miyamoto-san shows such focus. Quite frankly, I still can't see things that clearly. He'll say to me: "How many times have we been through this? And you still get confused?!" But, yes, I still lack that certain clarity. And because I still suffer with this, so in turn do my staff. That's one of the major reasons why we couldn't see the final destination clearly.

Miyamoto

Well, actually, I lose focus too you know. But when it happens, I just try to tell myself to get back on track and move forward. It still happens though.

Iwata

Sometimes thinking about something too deeply can cause you to lose focus. Which is not to say it's a bad thing to think deeply...

Miyamoto

That's right. It's okay to be uncertain from time to time. But by making a decision and sticking to it, you can keep moving forward

Aonuma

But worrying about something so much that you end up waving the white flag is never good!

Miyamoto

It certainly isn't! (laughs)

Iwata

Absolutely not! (laughs)

Aonuma

If you get to the stage where you're pulling your hair out and feeling "that's it, I can't think anymore", you know the result isn't going to be good. That's a really difficult state to be in. In a manner of speaking, it's a mental battle. With this particular project's development, both physical and mental power have been a necessity. Once you're over forty, you really feel that keenly. There were moments when I felt it was taking its toll on me! (laughs)

Iwata

Miyamoto-san, how do you feel about this?

Miyamoto

I've really enjoyed this project. I'm not saying I've been able to focus on it without sleep, or that I've got limitless supplies of stamina, but it was a lot of fun!

Iwata

(laughs)

Aonuma

I still can't believe that someone over fifty was staying at work later than me! (laughs)

Miyamoto

I was going through the project saying: "This is the most fun I've had in ages!" (laughs)

Aonuma

Don't rub it in, by the end I was almost at the stage where I wanted to pull my hair out!

Iwata

It was that bad? (laughs)

Aonuma

When it got to around eleven or twelve, and I was getting tired and thought Miyamoto-san must've already gone home, I'd hear the sound of an e-mail coming in: "He's still here?" The effect of that single e-mail would have me wide awake in no time! (laughs)

Miyamoto

Yes, towards the end I was firing out e-mails in a pretty rough state. When I can spend more time on them, I'll present everything neatly on a flow chart and explain clearly the best approach to implement new features. But towards the end my e-mails got a bit more rough. It got to the stage where everything was being written in list form. People seeing these e-mails for the first time may well have thought they were just thrown together. (laughs) Sometimes my instructions would become so blunt that members of staff would reply saying that they had put together a skit to show me what they thought I wanted them to do. At times I'd think: "They've missed the point here!" Then I'd just send an e-mail straight back telling them not to waste their time on things like that! (laughs)

Iwata

That's pretty harsh! (laughs)

Miyamoto

When I really couldn't get my point across, I'd send e-mails explaining precisely what the game characters should be saying to each other. To which the person in charge of creating the game dialogue would sarcastically reply: "Okay then, we'll use that in the game just as it is. I guess I'm out of a job!" (laughs) Of course, I only used this approach with the staff I've known for a long time and who can fully appreciate where I'm coming from.

Aonuma

But when you sent those kinds of messages, you must have known that some of the younger, less experienced staff members would read them too! (laughs)

Miyamoto

Well yes, if someone who didn't understand our relationship read those e-mails, they might think: "Is it okay to say that?". Or they might think: "Shigeru Miyamoto should be careful or someone will slip something into his drink..." (laughs) People such as Aonuma-san who've known me for years have more or less learnt what I'm like, but newcomers might read these messages, misinterpret the meaning, and think: "Uh-oh. We're really in trouble!" (laughs)

Iwata

I'm sure they would! (laughs) But I've heard that when this happens, the core staff have realised what's going on and let the newcomers know what to expect.

Aonuma

Now, I'm not saying this to flatter my staff, but even though they were getting these harsh e-mails, we certainly didn't have anyone on the verge of giving up completely. Everybody worked hard right until the end.

Miyamoto

They certainly did, and that's what really helped us through.

Aonuma

That's true. When Miyamoto-san said something harsh, we'd all try our best to respond with something that he wouldn't be able to complain about. We did this right to the end of the project.

Miyamoto

I know it's not pleasant for people to face criticism. We become light-headed, weak-kneed and often get angry. It's a normal response to rejection. Whether we're able to fend off this attack depends entirely on our training. But I think that young people nowadays have never really had to face this before. They are all very high-achievers here. They're the best of the best, graduating from universities and being able to enter Nintendo, they've never really faced this kind of harsh criticism before. But making products to sell to people is harsh. If we rush out something that's very rough around the edges, the complaints will soon come rolling in. So you could say that the criticism I give helps to prepare people for this, like a kind of warm-up before the main event. Even us older members can feel somewhat confused when we're suddenly told something we don't want to hear, as if our senses have been dulled.

Iwata

And when that happens, what do you do?

Miyamoto

It's all about how you fend off the attack. It's like getting rid of stress using Tanden1 breathing techniques... (laughs) Take three deep breaths, meditate on what you must do... Wow, I'm beginning to sound more and more like an old man! (laughs)

All

(laughter)

Miyamoto

I think it's also a kind of training. If you can't enjoy what you're doing, you may as well give up. Anyway, what was it we were talking about again? Let me see, I was…..?

Iwata

About getting involved in the Zelda project…

Miyamoto

Getting involved… Yes, it was fun! (laughs)

Iwata

(laughs)

Iwata

Ah yes, we were discussing what I did after joining the project. Well, to put it in a nutshell, I felt that for the first time in a long while I was close to the position of the player. From this perspective I focused on putting all the disjointed components back in order. I jotted down the sections which didn't fit the overall story, or elements I thought were completely out of place. One of the aspects I concentrated on was checking things that shattered the sense of reality within the game.

Aonuma

That's completely true. I could clearly see that he was working with us, while also deliberately assuming the role of the player. (laughs) Even while I admired him, I was thinking how nasty he was being! (laughs)

Iwata

Is there any particularly memorable guidance Miyamoto-san gave you?

Aonuma

Let me think. In one of his e-mails, Miyamoto-san wrote: "We're supposed to be creating something for people's entertainment. This part won't do at all." That has really stuck in my mind. He went on to say: "We want people to enjoy the game, but how on earth are they going to enjoy what you've done here?" The fact that we're making something to entertain people is completely obvious when you stop to think about it, but what he said made me realise it afresh. But the more the project deadlines started to close in, the easier it was for the development team to lose sight of that fact.

Iwata

And so, things that weren't going according to plan began to pile up?

Aonuma

Exactly. If we just rushed something out without making it absolutely perfect, it would be convenient for us, but this idea of convenience doesn't really concern the customer. Their only concern is how it will entertain them, which I can appreciate. This time in particular, due to the lengthy development time of this project, we haven't always had the time to give this our undivided attention. At these times, Miyamoto-san has taken charge and looked at things purely from the perspective of how to produce high-quality entertainment. In my case, I've often felt that while I know what he's saying, it just wasn't always possible! (laughs) I felt like that a lot of the time, but whatever the situation when something important has to be done, even with strict time constraints, you just have to hold on tight and get the job done.

Iwata

There are always any number of things in the development area that you know could be improved, but that aren't easy to change right away. The staff have brought this up in previous interviews but when Miyamoto-san suggests a change to something they felt was already too late to change, they would realise that something had to be fixed and would find themselves able to get it done. There's that kind of gratitude towards Miyamoto-san.

Aonuma

Ah, yes. (laughs) It happened a lot in the past with things that I thought I couldn't be changed, but when I said that Miyamoto-san wants it done, they seemed to get done. (laughs) But it wasn't like that this time, because Miyamoto-san gave us his suggestions in person

Miyamoto

I was often asked: "Are you really going to go ahead with this?" and I'd immediately reply with "yes, I really am!" (laughs)

Aonuma

And for those that didn't quite get it, old hands like us would explain in a rather cryptic way that: "These changes will definitely improve the game, just like they always have in the past!"

Miyamoto

I think I do explain things clearly though. And I always try to be honest right from the word go.

Iwata

No, what I mean is that it's one thing to get someone to understand the reasons for something, but it's a totally different thing to get them to understand those reasons well enough to be able to explain them to somebody else.

Miyamoto

As we were reaching the end of the development cycle, I'd often suggest something and get an answer like "we already tried that and it didn't work". I'd then reply with: "Well, that was then and this is now. So let's try again!" This happened on many occasions.

Aonuma

Yes, that kind of exchange was quite common.

Miyamoto

But hey, it's been a long project, initial builds differed quite considerably from the more up-to-date versions.

Iwata

The thing about Miyamoto-san is that when someone comes to him with a reason why something can't be done, he'll get that person to spit out what would need to be done to get the changes made! (laughs)

All

(laughter)

Aonuma

He won't quit till he gets an answer!

Iwata

People say that you make it so a person can't escape, and then hit them where it really counts!

Miyamoto

They say that?

Iwata

They do! (laughs)

Iwata

Ouch...!

Iwata

But it's not just on this particular project. I've heard many employees make the same kind of comments before! (laughs)

Aonuma

You like delivering that killer blow, don't you?

Miyamoto

I suppose I do, yes!

Iwata

You see, he does! (laughs)

Aonuma

Well, while we're on the subject, that swordsman who appears towards the beginning of the game and teaches Link how to wield his weapon properly, actually teaches him how to pull off that deadly strike later on. You suggested that he should teach the attack straight away! (laugh)

Miyamoto

I asked him why is it that my favorite technique isn't there right from the start! (laughs)

Aonuma

Once he'd made his decision that this attack should be available right at the beginning, I had to relent! (laughs)

Miyamoto

Well, the game needed it, don't you think? The first thing the swordsman taught you was how to knock someone down with your shield, I mean, who's going to use a boring move like that? (laughs)

Aonuma

He was saying: "We don't need it! Just finish them off with one mighty thrust!"

Miyamoto

That's it! One mighty thrust! The scenario had to be altered a lot to accommodate this! (laughs)

Aonuma

It threw the developers in charge into a real panic. They was saying things like: "Putting this move in the game right from the start means we've got a lot of work to do!"

Miyamoto

At times like that, I help out with all the things that have to be reworked to minimize the damage, don't I? I work really hard, you know! I suggest that if we change certain things, it will cause less damage.

Aonuma

That's true. When this man wants to incorporate a change in something, he really does his homework and steels himself for battle! (laughs)

Miyamoto

I only propose something once I have planned how it would actually be done.

Aonuma

And once you've come up with your proposal, there's nothing we can say, right? (laughs) We no longer have a choice!

Iwata

He's got you right where he wants you, ready for the killer blow! (laughs)

Miyamoto

It's a great job, isn't it

All

(laughter)

A First-rate Link, Even by Nintendo Standards
Iwata

Initially, Zelda: Twilight Princess was being developed solely for the GameCube, but you then adapted it for Wii. I’m sure there were many vexing problems along the way, but could you tell me how you found your way through the various complications?

Miyamoto

Well, I felt confident that applying Wii’s unique control system to Zelda would heighten the game’s charm, and the pointer function makes the use of in-game items in the first-person mode both easier and more intuitive. I told Aonuma-san that for the Wii version we would just have to change the controls without having to change the game's content, but there were some concerns about this.

Aonuma

At first, the staff and I were at a total loss as to what to do. We’d been shown a new device, but weren’t happy to just brush it off with: “We don’t have enough time for that!” (laughs) So we started trying out various ideas. One of which was dropping the 3D stick altogether and instead just using the Wii Remote only for it's pointer function in a similar way to the Nintendo DS stylus.

Iwata

You mean, you wanted to control Link by using the Remote to point to a certain destination?

Aonuma

Right. In the end it didn't really work. But even though we felt that it probably wouldn't suit a Zelda game, it was worth giving it a try. We played around with a lot of ideas for the controls and camera work, including those that we thought may have been a little too revolutionary. Then, when we exhibited the game at this year’s E3, we had a version that we felt was just about in a finished state. But there were still things I wasn’t completely satisfied with, and I was concerned about what kind of reception it would receive from the crowds there. As I feared, we received some negative feedback

Iwata

Oh, really? I was under the impression that the people who were able to try it out at the show weren’t that critical

Aonuma

Well, the ones who only played it for a while seemed to enjoy themselves, but the hardcore fans who had gotten used to the GameCube’s control method, and those people who were having a quiet word in Miyamoto-san's ear (laughs) seemed to be less than impressed.

Miyamoto

I did tell him, with perhaps the hint of a threat, that people thought it was terrible! (laughs)

Iwata

(Wry smile)

Aonuma

Getting this kind of chance to sound out people's reactions before a piece of software is released is actually something I welcome. But personally the thing which most affected me was hearing how smooth the controls on Mario Galaxy were! (laughs)

All

(laughter)

Aonuma

Well, you know, I did tell myself at the time that Mario Galaxy was developed for Wii from the start, but I knew the customers wouldn't have any sympathy for that kind of excuse. In any case, it was clear that some serious changes had to be made. Actually, it was the time after E3 that gave us the most headaches with the controls for the Wii version.

Iwata

So, which parts did you begin by changing?

Aonuma

Firstly, we tried to take out all the aspects that had a negative reception during the showing at E3. Then from there, we took things back to the drawing board, going back to the original concept: “What are the best things about using the Wii Remote in this version?” We heard a lot of things like: “We want to use the controller like a sword” at E3. Of course we had already done some experiments involving swinging the Remote like a sword and seeing Link’s action mimic this on-screen. During these early experiments however, we were faced with the fact that players doing this repeatedly would become tired, and so in the end we chose to remove it. Especially at the beginning, we made the game respond to various movements of the Remote. For example, if you swung the Remote vertically, Link would swing his sword vertically. But we felt this would actually become restricting to the player, and would tire the player out if they kept playing this way.

Iwata

But the crowds at E3 seemed intent on being able to wield the Remote like a sword. And so you found yourselves in a tough situation.

Aonuma

Perhaps the most persuasive point for us was that the players who tried the game at E3 instinctively swung the Wii Remote around like a sword. It wasn’t just the sword either, we also noticed that during the fishing sections, players were manipulating the Remote like a fishing rod and reel, even though it was controlled by the buttons. Seeing this, we realised that this must be an intuitive movement. We knew we had to make some kind of adjustments to the game to incorporate this. When people first pick up the Wii Remote, they are expecting the game to respond if they swing it. That's why we knew we had to integrate this functionality into the game. We worried a lot about the actual implementation of these features, but decided to simplify the system so that swinging the Remote did in fact create a sword-swinging motion in the game, but didn’t cause people any stress when trying to do so. Luckily, Zelda isn’t just about slashing away at enemies from start to finish, and I was glad when we were able to recreate a spinning attack with a simple flick of the wrist, which is a lot easier than trying to do it with button commands. Getting to that stage though was very time-consuming, and full of adjustments.

Iwata

It certainly seemed that once E3 had ended, there were a lot of issues concerning the Wii control method for Zelda, but that you really knocked it into shape. In retrospect, even though it was a struggle, are you glad you had a playable version of the game in time for E3?

Aonuma

In the end, I'm glad we managed it.

Miyamoto

I was rather surprised by the reception the game got at E3 as well. I’d expected it to fare a lot better and, in all honesty, I wasn’t prepared for the number of people that found it difficult to use the directional pad while gripping the Wii Remote. Since we’re all very used to using the Remote and very dexterous when it comes to using all the buttons while holding it, seeing the way first-time players gripped the Remote really tightly was surprising! (laughs) It made me realise that it's not easy for most people to move their fingers, as if to utilise a directional pad, when holding something rod-shaped.

Aonuma

One thing we know for certain is that we didn’t perfect the control system with a single idea: making the Remote work by swinging it, or by minimizing the need to use the directional pad, for instance. Even once we’d decided to proceed in a certain way, we still conducted countless tests in an attempt to iron out the small imperfections and give the system a complete overhaul. It was Miyamoto-san and I, through plenty of tweaking and endless discussions of: “You mean like this?” “Yes, like that”, that got it done.

Miyamoto

Yes, and the development process really starts from there. For software in the development cycle, it’s relatively easy to assign functions to a certain button, but the problem was how to make the players really feel they have total control over Link’s movements. If we didn’t go through all the possible control functions thoroughly, and make sure that things were absolutely perfect to prevent minor control errors, we couldn’t really say we’d “tested it”, could we? We honestly did a huge amount of fine-tuning!

Aonumas

We certainly did!

Miyamoto

Even though we managed to find our way through that particularly grueling stage, probably the biggest obstacle we had to face on the long journey to completion was at the beginning when the team leaders were under the impression that, even though the game was going to be released on Wii, they didn’t think they’d have anything to do with the development of that version.

Iwata

I see. Back when you first decided to produce it for Wii?

Miyamoto

Precisely. The staff only thought they were to be involved in the GameCube version, which would be compatible with Wii. They believed that the Wii version wasn’t for them to worry about. So it was only myself, Aonuma-san and the lead programmer who had fully devoted ourselves to doing this version! Once the revelation that “we’re making a Wii version of Zelda!" had sunk in, everybody began putting their all into the project.

Iwata

Ah...

Aonuma

And so at the very end, when we entered the debugging phase and I announced to the staff that they were to begin debugging the Wii version. I was worried that everyone would say: "But we did the most fine-tuning on the GameCube version!" But luckily it didn’t take long before everyone adapted to the Wii version, and subsequently found it tough going back to the GameCube one! (laughs)

Iwata

In interviews with the other developers, the general feeling is that they feel confident about both versions.

Aonuma

I’m glad to hear it! (laughs) A lot of the staff became really passionate about the GameCube version, but they found that because of the differences in the aspect ratio on the Wii version, the player's field of vision is bigger than on the GameCube version. For that reason, a lot of them felt that the Wii version was easier to play. I think that in the end, everything worked out just fine.

Miyamoto

The fact that on the GameCube version left and right are reversed also adds a new enjoyable dimension to the game.

Iwata

I see. Next, I'd like to talk about graphics. In Twilight Princess, the style of the graphics is more real, but your aim wasn't to make them photo-realistic, was it? Aonuma-san, you originally come from a design background, so I'd like to know how you came to settle on the final style?

Aonuma

When I first found out that this Zelda was going to feature more realistic graphics, my initial concern was that we'd just be making a lot of extra work for ourselves. For example, when a realistically proportioned Link jumped in the game, it wasn't a good representation of how someone would jump in real life. If I tried to make it too realistic, the game would suffer as a result. And so, even though there are parts that lacked total realism, I focused on the adjustments needed to make Link move smoothly. This was very difficult, but we didn't have to make it ultra-realistic. To quote Miyamoto-san: "What's happening in the game world should feel true to life." And so our ultimate goal was to ensure that the character's design and movements weren't labored and were at least close to reality, without us expending too much time and energy on it. We didn't have to do this for everything of course, just those certain aspects that required it. Finding those aspects however, was the most challenging part.

Miyamoto

In other words, it's like setting the scene for a play rather than recreating the world as it is. If you don't tell people they should be making a stage, they go ahead and try to make an entire world. There is an art to how you properly set a stage and that's what I had to carefully explain.

Iwata

Is there anything you could tell us specifically?

Miyamoto

Well for example, imagine a scene with lots of small stones. On the one hand, you could make it so that the player can move every single one. But if you can successfully communicate the premise that there are also stones that don't move, they will accept this. So, it is far more important to make the stones that can be moved, to move naturally from the player's perspective, rather than making every single stone movable. When and where to do this while constructing the game's world is something that clearly wasn't going well when I stepped into the development of this project, and I found myself having to drill the details into the staff.

Iwata

Did those problems have anything to do with the sheer size of the project?

Miyamoto

Yes, I think they did. These days development is much more fragmented with separate people working on tasks such as graphics, movements and item placement. When creating realistic movement within the game's environment everything is essentially connected; whether it's the way the graphics are drawn, how the program is written or even where the objects are placed, even the designs have an impact on this. And when one aspect is out of place in the game world, it loses its seamless connection to the other parts. When I find one of these problems and attempt to locate the cause, people tend to point the finger at someone else and have me going round in circles! (laughs) And just like I've mentioned before, I'll then get angry: "Who put this stone here?" Somebody must've put it there! When I try to track the culprit down, it always comes back to the director. "The designers and programmers didn't do it, so it must've been the director! Who's in charge here!" This happened quite a lot.

Aonuma

But there really are times when a stone is placed somewhere for absolutely no reason whatsoever!

Miyamoto

And when I find one of them, I'll always ask: "Why was it put here?"

Iwata

And the answer is usually: "I just felt like it." (laughs)

Aonuma

I know, or "I just thought I'd put it there" is another one. (laughs)

Miyamoto

I'd actually be happier if someone said: "It looks good, don't you think?" (laughs)

Iwata

"I just felt like it" really is the worst possible answer you could get!

Miyamoto

I mean, everyone's so busy every day dealing with other problems that I they rarely have time to give the stones a lot of thought. They often just stay exactly where they're put.

Iwata

I see. Now, let's turn again to the game's graphics. When we see a picture of Link, we don't merely see a CG model, or a comic book character, we see a fully-developed character who feels realistic when he moves and has a really unique sense of balance. I personally felt that this style was unique, but how do you feel Aonuma-san, speaking as the person who realised this style?

Aonuma

But it's not just the individual pictures, I believe the amalgamation of everything produces a real power which makes Link unique. There are so many people working on the various designs that there is inevitably a degree of inconsistency. This is where the senior directorial staff, beginning with Takizawa-san, have to step in, and as we were saying just now, decide the points that are essential, focus on retaining them and thereby maintain the game's coherence. But this time round, this was especially challenging due to the sheer amount of these tasks. But thanks to a lot of trial and error they conducted right down to the lighting and the very atmosphere of the game so that you can feel the air around you, the whole world really came together well. And the result of all these elements coming together is that Link now moves exceptionally well. The atmosphere in this game reminds me a lot of Ocarina of Time. That game's atmosphere really was in a class of its own and I'm sure fans of the series will agree. The staff here held that as one of their aims and believe that, by using Ocarina as a basis, they've been able to revive that atmosphere in a new form.

Iwata

The game certainly does have that feeling about it. What do you think of the new Link, Miyamoto-san?

Miyamoto

The new Link is truly wonderful, isn't he? It won't be easy to make something as good as this again. Even by Nintendo standards, this is first-rate.

Iwata

Wow! (laughs)

Miyamoto

No really, I think this is something we should all be proud of. The person in charge, Nishimori-san, may be one of our younger members of staff but he's been working closely with an experienced programmer. Aonuma-san and myself have been discussing things with him since the planning stage and have checked everything exhaustively. We would discuss the best methods of programming right down to the nearest millisecond.

Iwata

So, Miyamoto-san, you've no more complaints about Link?

Miyamoto

None at all. But there's plenty I'd like to say about the movement of the animals! I'd be saying: "You call that an animal?" (laughs) "You call that a horse? Go and see what a horse really looks like!"

Iwata

Yes, that has come up in the interviews before! (laughs)

Miyamoto

Ah, they told you about that? (laughs) But back to Link, I really think that for a player character the quality of his movement is unsurpassed. Even right near the end when I spotted something and said that it would be a shame if it wasn't perfect and that we should fix it, everybody was happy to put the work in and get the job done. I said a bit hesitantly: "At least let's fix this", but the team responded with: "If we're going to fix it, let's fix it properly!"

Aonuma

You were hesitant? (laughs)

All

(laughter)

Iwata

Also, this Link not only moves very well, but he also has real charm.

Aonuma

Even though he's the player's character, he comes with his own personality, which sounds a bit strange, but I think that his uniqueness probably became apparent right after Miyamoto-san had him throw that goat! (laughs)

Miyamoto

This was one time I just had to speak out. With this project I was supervising, and entrusted the planning side of things to other people. But in exchange I said: "Let me throw that goat!" (laughs)

Iwata

Another act of violence! (laughs)

Aonuma

Well, that was one big goat! Up to that point Link looked a bit doll-like, but once he threw the goat we started to think: "Maybe he could do this" or "Maybe he could throw that!" The things Link could do grew and grew…

Miyamoto

Throwing the goat, throwing the mid-level boss

Aonuma

Let's try not to give too much away! (laughs)

Miyamoto

Oh, yes... (laughs)

Iwata

Whatever the case, this Link feels very responsive.

Aonuma

Yes, and there were plenty of other things I wanted to add! But if I mentioned this you'd probably say: "What? You want even more time!" (laughs)

Iwata

I probably would! (laughs)

Aonuma

But even so, in all honesty there were other things I wanted to do.

Miyamoto

I think what we did was enough, but even that didn't satisfy my desire to do more. If only I could change it just a little bit more... (laughs

Iwata

I suppose that's what makes it Zelda.

Each Philosophy Benefits from the Existence of the Other
Iwata

The image of Wii in the lead-up to its launch has been shaped by the fact that most of the attention is being given to games that can also be easily enjoyed by non-gamers, typified by the Wii Sports package. That's partly due to the fact that Nintendo's primary goal is the expansion of the gamer population. However, that doesn't mean in the least that Nintendo feels the games most enjoyed by our core fans like Zelda aren't important anymore. Quite the contrary - our ambitious plan was to create and launch the ultimate traditional gamer's game at the same time as Wii, a console designed to expand the gamer population. Did the co-existence of these seemingly disparate goals in the company ever make it hard for you to continue with the lengthy development of Zelda, or make you question the value of your work to the company? This is actually a question that I didn't ask the other developers.

Aonuma

You didn't? I would've liked to hear their comments. Well, hmm…let's see. This might not be the best way to put it, but at the beginning of development, we started work on Twilight Princess with the intention of helping the GameCube go out in style. Put another way, we wanted to proceed straight ahead within the framework of traditional gaming and make a game that would really blow people away. Our focus was clearly different from that of Wii, which was designed to be easy to play and to be something everyone can enjoy. However, I think the fact that this Zelda can be played on Wii helps build a number of bridges. It will provide a chance for people who bought Wii for the simple and intuitive controls to see how much fun traditional games can be. At the same time, for people who like traditional games and are harboring some doubts about Wii games, or who have already decided that Wii is not for them, Zelda might become a gateway for them to see how much fun Wii is.

Iwata

I see.

Miyamoto

But what about the state of mind of the internal staff members? A few years ago, for example, the Zelda team was considered to be the top development team within Nintendo. Of course the various development teams in the company weren't ranked, but it would be fair to say that the Zelda team represented the whole company. But then the Nintendo DS came along and its simple and fun games were huge hits. We became able to keep putting out great games without investing a lot of people or time in development.

Aonuma

Hmm, well yes, that's true.

Miyamoto

In the context of this new climate, when Zelda became the biggest project in the company, some people started to say half-jokingly: "We could probably make five other new games if we didn't have Zelda." It would be going too far to say that making this kind of huge game is somehow obsolete, but there are trends even within parts of Nintendo to move away from this approach. During development, wasn't there any sense of melancholy in the team, a feeling that the days of enormous projects like this were numbered?

Aonuma

Let me think about it for a moment…… No, I don't think there was anything like that. The feeling in the team was more like: the DS is the DS, Wii is Wii, and more importantly for us, Zelda is Zelda

Miyamoto

So no one was worried about being left behind?

Aonuma

Well, I'm sure some people felt that way. We were continuing to do what we've always done in the midst of a change of direction within Nintendo, so I would be lying if I said that no one was worried about being left behind. When we missed our window of opportunity to help the GameCube go out in style and it was decided to also make a Wii version, things got a little chaotic. But despite that, no one ever said anything like: "We shouldn't be spending time on making Zelda anymore." No matter how much trends in the industry were changing, we had absolute and unwavering confidence in what we were making.

Iwata

I'm sure that you wouldn't have been able to create a Zelda like this if you'd felt that this kind of big project was becoming a thing of the past. So as you said, I don't think people in the development team were concerned by this. Or if they were, it was in the sense that the company's new direction acted to motivate them.

Aonuma

Yes, I think it probably helped motivate the team.

Iwata

I think there is value in the mentality that was brought about by the success of the Nintendo DS, namely that it is possible to create a good product without investing a huge amount of time or resources. On the other hand, making games like Twilight Princess is also important because it gives us a chance to impress players with what we can do when we devote a talented team of people to making a single game over a long period of time. I also think each philosophy benefits from the existence of the other. I think that without either one of them, the resulting lack of variety would be unhealthy.

Miyamoto

I think that's true.

Aonuma

As do I. Since I've only worked on large, epic games before, I realise that I'll need to start thinking about things from a slightly different point of view from now on. I think that all of the other staff are becoming aware of the need to do this, too. While we don't have any regrets whatsoever about how this Zelda has turned out, the next time we are deciding what kind of game to make, I think the differences between these two philosophies will become a constructive topic for debate.

I Simply Want Everyone to Enjoy this World
Iwata

Every time I helped with testing in Zelda: Twilight Princess, I find myself taken aback, thinking: "I can't believe you even included this!" And since you've put so much effort into refining the game to that point, in this final interview I think it's only fitting for us to introduce these touches to all the fans who've been patiently waiting for the game's release. Some examples include the changes throughout the four seasons and the weather at the fishing pond, when the water becomes muddy after it rains. Another one is when you drink from one of the jars, the surface of the liquid remains level even when you tilt it. Why has so much time and effort been invested in making these minor details? (laughs) I was really left shaking my head in disbelief when I saw the sheer number of these touches throughout the game. But even though I'm still wondering why would you go to all that trouble, I still really want people to know about these details. I want them to appreciate the lengths you have gone to in order to create such a foolishly detailed world! (laughs)

Miyamoto

Well, on this subject, I've often said half-jokingly: "In this game, even the sides of the ladders have patterns on them!" (laughs) But whenever you climb a ladder, the camera moves so it's directly behind you meaning you can't actually see the sides of the ladder!

Aonuma

Miyamoto-san, are you implying that there was some bad management in the development team? (laughs)

Miyamoto

How much time did you spend on that part? (laughs)

Iwata

Well, let's forget that particular point for now! (laughs)

Aonuma

Agreed! (laughs)

Miyamoto

It's a well-known fact that Zelda games always have signposts that can be sliced apart by the player. The village at the beginning of this game is no exception. However in this game, finally, the pieces you cut off can be picked up!

All

(roaring laughter)

Aonuma

And of course, if you throw them into the river they float

All

(laughter)

Miyamoto

They really do float. The reason we enabled the player to pick up the pieces and carry them was because there were no signposts right by the river.

Aonuma

Exactly! (laughs) If you don't take them and throw them into the river, they're not going to float.

Miyamoto

And because we've made it so the pieces float, it'd be a real waste if the player didn't get to see this. That's why we let them pick them up, carry them to the river and throw them in! Setting up this feature took us about the same time as it did to work on one of the horses! (laughs)

Iwata

A fine example of putting the cart before the horse! (laughs)

Miyamoto

It really was! (laughs)

Aonuma

We often couldn't be sure which was the horse and which was the cart! (laughs)

Miyamoto

There are plenty of these touches in this Zelda for the player to enjoy. And why did this happen, you might ask. Well, in the early stages of development neither the overall direction of the story, nor its finer details had been settled on. For that reason, the development team concentrated on creating things that could be used however the story turned out. The enemies were designed so that they could appear at any location throughout the game and the items were made so they could be used just about anywhere. Normally, when the framework for a game is decided you basically try to put all of the things you have made already into the game, making adjustments to them to ensure the minimum amount of waste. However, this time round with Zelda the trial-and-error process was so long that a large number of things made with great attention to detail remain in the game without having been through that adjustment process.

Aonuma

The perfect example are the characters who duck when you swing your sword at them! (laughs)

Miyamoto

Ah yes! (laughs) There are some children who duck out of the way when you swing your sword at them!

All

(laughs)

Aonuma

In previous Zelda adventures, the non-player characters show little or no reaction if you swing at them. We had this feature left over from something made as an experiment quite some time ago, and for some reason we made it so only the children dodge Link's sword.

Miyamoto

Well, speaking to those children isn't particularly interesting, but when you swing that sword they all duck! People say things like: "That's the funniest part!" (laughs) Actually, one of them dodges the strike by bending backwards.

Aonuma

The shortest one, right?

Iwata

Well, seeing as this rather silly part of the game doesn't ruin the storyline, it'd be nice if we could show a video clip if at all possible...

Aonuma

There are many of these kinds of moments in the early stages of the game. We were making them right from the initial development stages.

Miyamoto

What else was there… Ah yes, we already talked a little about the goat-throwing section, but to continue from that, there are a pre-determined number of goats that appear in the game. When I found out the reason for this, I was quite speechless! (laughs) The way it works is, there's an event where Link has to round up a certain number of goats. The number of goats isn't determined by the event's difficulty, but instead by the number that can fit into the pens in the barn!

All

(laughter)

Aonuma

The number of places in the barn was set and that dictated the total number of goats we could have…

Miyamoto

I spoke to the director about why we couldn't have a larger number, but he told me that it wouldn't be possible because there were only twenty-four spaces in the barn! (laughs) Also, in early versions of the game, Link couldn't even enter the barn.

Iwata

So, you couldn't even see the number of pens?

Miyamoto

Precisely! (laughs) What were you thinking, limiting the number of pens! But in the end, Link became able to enter the barn.

Aonuma

And from time to time when the goats escape, you can now go into the barn and check to see how many of the pens are empty. That's the kind of detail the team spent their time implementing! (laughs)

Miyamoto

Nobody's going to check anyway! (laughs) There were many points like this throughout the game.

Aonuma

That's true. Before we knew it, all these details were already in the game!

Iwata

Really? (laughs) So many nice touches have been put in the game, I think the most fun thing will be laughing out loud as you find them one by one. Since you're paying for the game anyway, you may as well get the most out of the experience!

Aonuma

Of course! (laughs)

Miyamoto

For those who play the game, try moving the camera around from time to time and you'll find all kinds of wonderful things hidden away outside the main gameplay area if you take the time to look. (laughs)

Iwata

We couldn't claim this to be a major selling point for the game though! (laughs)

Miyamoto

There is a wealth of detail in the graphics so that when you pull the camera away it looks really impressive. This is in spite of the fact that you can't see these things when just playing through the game normally! (laughs) By changing the camera view occasionally, you'll suddenly catch a glimpse of some truly wonderful views.

Aonuma

That's absolutely right. Taking the time to have a look around can really pay off. There really are points that will make you think: "This is a breathtaking world." But that doesn't necessarily make the game good... (laughs)

Miyamoto

I think it's a good thing. Even the enemy characters are wearing great-looking armor and equipment decorated with finely detailed textures. Our developers made it this way without considering how much you'd be able to see it when playing the game! (laughs) But they did think that you'd be able to get a better look once the enemies had been knocked down.

Aonuma

In this sense, we haven't made any compromises in bringing this world to life, and it's clear to see that the staff haven't cut any corners either.

Iwata

It certainly gives that impression.

Miyamoto

I once had a discussion with Hayao Miyazaki1 when he was making Porco Rosso2 and he asked me if I knew the way to make a landscape look authentic from a bird's-eye view. I wasn't sure and when I asked him what it was, he said: "Just keep drawing!" (laughs) It seems it's all about putting your nose to the grindstone and adding more and more detail. With this Zelda there were times when that was just what we did, and it was precisely because we put so much into the graphic detail that the game looks really good when the camera pulls away to take in the surrounding view.

Iwata

Yes, I'd have to agree with you.

Miyamoto

Those aspects might not always be seen when playing the game, but nonetheless I'd like to praise the staff on all the work they put into making those fine details! (laughs)

Iwata

Everything you see in the game world is fully-formed, not made in the same way as the set of a TV show which, if you view it from a certain angle, hasn't been fully built. Realising a vision like this may have been hugely expensive but you've really come up with a world you rarely see in video games. A lot of time and effort has gone into crafting all the details in this game, so I'd really like the players to thoroughly enjoy this rich gaming experience.

Miyamoto

Even things such as the doors have been lovingly put together.

Aonuma

It's just another indication of the quality that's found in Zelda games. If we were making a game that only used a fixed camera angle for example, there would be no need to make things that appear on the sides or behind the player as they wouldn't be seen. But that's not the kind of approach we like to use for a Zelda game. We were also keen to make the locations on the landscape interconnect and make them accessible from any direction where possible, that's why we really feel that no corners have been cut. The reason we made such an effort to include as many features as possible is because our aim is to make people feel that the vast land of Hyrule is a true living and breathing environment.

Iwata

Okay, finally I'd like to ask you both to give a message to the many fans who've been waiting for Zelda: Twilight Princess. Aonuma-san, would you like to start?

Aonuma

Well, to put it simply, I just want the fans to really embrace the wonderful world we've created. We worked ourselves to the bone making this and feel we've accomplished our goal and produced a truly great piece of work. I really hope you take the time to play this game as a new type of Zelda experience awaits you.

Iwata

Miyamoto-san, what would you like to say?

Miyamoto

I doubt there are many teams out there that could make something of this caliber. It's completely faithful to the spirit of Zelda, I mean, this game sticks to that clear path that a Zelda game must stick to. I know I can't predict how the world will react to this game, but I think I can safely say that there's nothing else like this available. The staff remained positive, and even when they were exhausted they worked hard right until the last moment putting everything together. Because this game contains so much energy, I'd really like people to pick it up and give it a try. As for my role this time, I feel I've helped more in putting everything together into its final form, rather than assisting with the creative side. Now it's finished, I can look back and feel that it's been a very enjoyable experience. What do you think, Iwata-san?

Iwata

Firstly, I think the final product really benefited from the decision to extend the development time by an extra year. The sheer scale of this project meant that there wasn't a clear plan from the start, but in spite of this I feel that the Zelda development team achieved their true potential and demonstrated their astonishing ability by bringing all the elements of this game neatly together in one well-rounded package. I haven't had the chance to play the game through in its entirety yet, but I have been able to check all the individual pieces and can confidently say that the wealth of ideas and energy that has been put into this game really shines through. Even with all the resources we have here at Nintendo, we could only make something like this once every few years. In fact, it might not be easy to do something like this again, so I really want everyone to have a wonderful time playing this game.

Aonuma

Indeed, and with this version of Zelda, you should really get your money's worth with over a hundred hours of gameplay.

Iwata

And none of that time feels in the slightest like a chore, which is really an achievement.

Miyamoto

When we say it will take a hundred hours, we don't mean you will spend half the time just building up your strength and supplies... Well, perhaps there is the odd time you have to collect rupees, but that's it! (laughs) Even then, we have made it so that the player will have fun coming up with ideas to get those rupees. This is a game you won't tire of!

Aonuma

Another thing is that this project has seen a mixture of creators, both old-timers and newcomers alike who've worked together to produce ideas that manage to combine a fresh approach with oddly nostalgic gameplay.

Iwata

And because of that, I think we've made a game that has a very broad appeal.

Aonuma

That's right, and even people of Miyamoto-san's generation will be playing this one! (laughs) Three generations of people will be able to enjoy this gaming experience.

Iwata

By "three generations", you mean like Touch Generations, right? (laughs)

Aonuma

Right. Which is a good thing! (laughs)

Miyamoto

I also wanted to mention the sound and programming teams as well as the people who made the videos and demos. They didn't take part in these interviews, but worked just as hard as the rest.

Aonuma

That's right.

Iwata

To tell the truth, I still have lots of questions I wanted to ask the developers in these interviews…

Miyamoto

Speaking of which, these discussions are being translated and put on the international Nintendo sites as well, aren't they? I just wanted to add to the many fans of Zelda around the world that members of the foreign localization teams came over and worked with us during the development. And to these teams, I wanted to say that they really are very dedicated to what they do.

Aonuma

They certainly did work hard. This is actually the first time a Zelda game is being released simultaneously worldwide too. Various localization teams from around the world came to Japan and worked together with us on making this possible.

Miyamoto

They even worked alongside us until late at night.

Aonuma

They did. Generally speaking, I heard that most people in other countries tend not to work that late, but these guys sometimes worked until 1am!

Miyamoto

I said to one of the European team members: "You're working late!" and they replied: "Yes, because the Japanese staff haven't gone home yet!"

Iwata

(laughs)

Aonuma

There was a good sense of unity among us. When they went to the local convenience store to buy a late-night bento box to eat, we thought: "That's just what we do!" (laughs)

Iwata

To the localization teams that worked together on this project, you certainly know your Japanese culture!

Aonuma

I agree.

Miyamoto

Another thing, there are more people translating the game's text into English than there were making the original Japanese! (laughs)

Aonumas

There were, weren't there? (laughs) There were people to pick out the intricacies of the original Japanese, others to convert the language into English and then even more people in charge of perfecting it and making it sound natural!

Miyamoto

Not forgetting the people who iron out the parts of the story they think are weird! (laughs)

All

(laughter)

Iwata

I'd just like to say thank you to everyone for spending such a long time today answering my questions.

Aonuma

Thank you.

Miyamoto

Thank you very much.

Volume 1: The Legend of Zelda: Spirit Tracks (2009)
This 2009 interview goes over the creation of and features Satoru Iwata, Eiji Aonuma, and Iwamoto.

The Previous Game Felt As Though We'd Given Our All
Iwata

All right, to start off, please introduce yourselves.

Aonuma

I'm Aonuma, from Entertainment Analysis & Development. I produced this game, The Legend of Zelda: Spirit Tracks, and I also produced the previous game,  The Legend of Zelda: Phantom Hourglass.1

Iwamoto

I'm Iwamoto, of the same department. I acted as director for this game, as with the previous game.

Iwata

Aonuma-san, you're involved with both the Wii and Nintendo DS editions of The Legend of Zelda. Are there any differences in how you work on the two?

Aonuma

When I work on the Wii edition, I'm right on-site, and I often do my job from a director's perspective. On the Nintendo DS version, I do proper producer's work. ...That said, when I worked on the previous game, The Legend of Zelda:Phantom Hourglass, I was simultaneously making  Twilight Princess, so I couldn't keep a very close eye on things right from the beginning. Then, when The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess was finished and I went to the Nintendo DS version's office, the development was already pretty far along. From my point of view, it was at a stage where I could really make myself useful.

Iwata

So you're saying that you left the site for a while, and that let you see the Nintendo DS version with a new set of eyes. As a result, you were able to spot the places where you could put in a little more work and really improve things.

Aonuma

That's exactly it. So then - and I did feel bad to do so - I asked that development be extended three more months, and I worked on it during that extra period. Then, the more I worked, the better it got.

Iwata

Yes, I'd heard something about that, too. I heard that the quality of the previous game improved tremendously during the final stages of development.

Aonuma

And then we had Iwamoto direct this time just as he did with the last game. About half of the staff had been involved in The Legend of Zelda: Phantom Hourglass as well, so I left matters in their hands to a certain extent. And, again, for about the final two months of development...

Iwamoto

It was closer to three.

Aonuma

As you'd expect, I went back in right in the final stages of development, as I had with the previous game. I'd lobbed out several proposals, and when I came back, the results I've gotten were far better than I'd hoped for. I think I must have played the game through about ten times from there on. (laughs) I was making the final balance adjustments.

Iwata

The producer says it was far better than he'd hoped for. Director Iwamoto, how did this project begin?

Iwamoto

To start with, in the previous work, we'd included a lot of different features. Personally, I felt as though we'd really done our best. We built in all sorts of ways to play, using the Nintendo DS handheld's functions. But then Producer Aonuma said, "There's still quite a lot left to do here, isn't there?"

Iwata

Even though you've done all you could (laughs).

Aonuma

You see, though, I did feel the same way. In the previous game, there was a tremendous amount of ideas, and even I felt very strongly that we'd done absolutely everything.

Iwata

Since you both felt that you'd done everything there was to do, what made you decide to make another The Legend of Zelda for Nintendo DS?

Aonuma

Well, there are some definite similarities between that sequence of events and the way  The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask came from  The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time.

Iwata

That's right, the situation now is similar to the way things were with the N64.

Aonuma

Very similar. If I start telling that story, though, we could be here for a while. Is that all right?

Iwata

Of course, please, go on. I doubt it's even possible to talk about "The Legend of Zelda theory without mentioning that story.

Aonuma

All right. Our first 3D The Legend of Zelda game for the N64 turned out to be The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time. I did some direction on that one, although it was only partial: I was in charge of dungeon design.

Iwata

Somehow, I had the impression that you'd been overseeing everything since Ocarina of Time, Aonuma-san. Now that I think about it, I guess that wasn't the case.

Aonuma

Absolutely not. I managed to stay out of the line of fire most of the time back then. (laughs)

Iwata

(laughs)

Aonuma

Well, and they pretty much let me do whatever I pleased. So when we made The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time, I felt very strongly that we'd given it our best.

Iwata

When The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time came out, people said it was far above the average level of games at the time, so I'm sure you did feel you'd done your best.

Aonuma

That's right. It made us very, very happy (laughs). Even after its release, I felt that we'd really done something special; I felt very fulfilled. At the time, I think (Shigeru) Miyamoto-san had that same feeling, but apparently he also felt as though there was still quite a lot left to do.

Iwata

Yes, Miyamoto-san really is greedy about things like that, isn't he. (laughs)

Aonuma

And so he said: we'd already made 3D models for The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time. By changing the situation, couldn't we make new ways to play, a new story?

Iwata

So you made The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask.

Aonuma

No, we didn't just start making The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask, not right away. There was actually a flip-side, and in the beginning, the idea was to make a "Ura (Flip-Side) Zelda".

Iwata

That "Ura Zelda" (The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time: Master Quest) was developed for the 64DD. Ultimately, we recorded it on a limited edition disc that went to people who reserved The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker.

Aonuma

Ultimately, other staff members handled The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time: Master Quest. Still, as someone who has been in charge of the dungeons, I just couldn't get that excited over making a flip-side for them. I couldn't see it turning into a new The Legend of Zelda, either. But we'd been told to make The Legend of Zelda. It isn't as though we could just say, "I don't want to", and end it there. At that point, Miyamoto-san gave us a tradeoff: he said, if we could make a new The Legend of Zelda game in one year, then it wouldn't have to be a "flip-side".

Iwata

Well! So you're saying The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask was the result of your team picking up the gauntlet he'd thrown down? (laughs)

Aonuma

Yes. That was the deal. But The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time did take three years to make, you know!?

Iwata

That it did (laughs).

Aonuma

And we were supposed to make its sequel in a year... At first, we had absolutely no idea what sort of thing we were supposed to make, and we just kept expanding our plans... At that point, the "Three-Day System", the idea of a compact world to be played over and over again, came down from Miyamoto-san and one other director, (Yoshiaki) Koizumi-san. We added that to the mix, and then, finally, we saw the full substance of a The Legend of Zelda game we could make in one year.

Iwata

Actually, I feel as though, back then, we were given a glimpse of the concept that "Deep, compact play is one form of the games of the future". I think in that sense, as a product, The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask was a big turning point for Nintendo. That said, I had no idea it was the result of an argument. (laughs)

Aonuma

That's correct. (laughs) Still, in the beginning, it was all trial and error. Ultimately, we adopted the "three-day system", and made it so that, if you couldn't clear the game inside of three days, the world was destroyed.

Iwata

It turned out to be a very tense game, didn't it.

Aonuma

Then, in The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask, you had to remember all sorts of things so that the world wouldn't be destroyed: "Oh, there was something here, and something else over there", things like that. That's another thing it shares with The Legend of Zelda: Spirit Tracks.

Iwamoto

You're traveling by train, and if you're careful to remember where things are, they come in handy later.

Aonuma

And this time, since it's on the Nintendo DS system, you can take notes.

Iwata

It's very odd that something you worked so hard to think up should come in handy again now, almost ten years later. (laughs)

Aonuma

It is. (laughs)

Why Tetra Makes No Appearance
Iwata

So, even though you felt you'd done everything you could with The Legend of Zelda: The Ocarina of Time, The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask came out of it. Now, in the same way, you progressed from The Legend of Zelda: Phantom Hourglass into making The Legend of Zelda: Spirit Tracks.

Aonuma

That's right. After we made Ocarina of Time, and Miyamoto-san said, "There are still things you can do, aren't there"... I think those words came back again, inside me.

Iwata

It's just like the way an apprentice thinks, "How cruel", but then ends up doing the same thing to his apprentices. (laughs)

Aonuma

It really is. (laughs) Now that I think about it, it's a rather inhumane story.

Iwamoto

(Laughs)

Aonuma

But we did manage it with The Legend of Zelda:Majora's Mask. So I said, "You people can do it too!" Also, "This is a sequel, so you'll be able to make it fast, won't you."

Iwamoto

He did say that (laughs).

Iwata

Iwamoto-san, do you mean your producer urged you, "We got The Legend of Zelda:Majora's mask finished in a year, so come on, let's do this in a short time frame, too"?

Iwamoto

No, he didn't go that far. (laughs)

Aonuma

I didn't. (laughs)

Iwamoto

He didn't say it, but... He might as well have. (laughs)

Aonuma

Besides, this game had a two-year development period.

Iwamoto

Two years... isn't really all that much. (laughs)

All

(laugh)

Aonuma

To begin with, Director Iwamoto was on the The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time staff as well.

Iwata

That's true.

Iwamoto

I've been involved in the The Legend of Zelda series since The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time, but I wasn't in charge of The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask. So I didn't know how rough The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask really was, and when Aonuma-san said, "There are still things to do here, aren't there", it didn't really throw me for a loop.

Iwata

Since you felt you'd really done your best, then, you also felt that you could keep going.

Iwamoto

Right. We thought, "What if we go at this using a different approach from the previous game?" And what we came up with was the use of  Phantom.

Iwata

A strong, invincible enemy.

Iwamoto

Yes. In the last game, there was a type of play where you could switch to playing as a Goron; we decided to build things around  controlling the Phantom at a relatively early stage. We'd been trying to think of a method for intuitively and easily controlling a subplayer for a while at that point.

Iwata

In other words, even before you were told, "There are still things to do here, aren't there", you'd had an idea that you really wanted to try.

Aonuma

That's why, when I said, "Let's do another one!", I got such a good response. Something in each of us sort of resonated with the other.

Iwamoto

No, well.... Was there something? (staring at each other)

Aonuma

You seem annoyed. (laughs)

All

(laugh)

Iwata

By the way - and I'm asking this because history does tend to repeat itself - was there an argument before this game, as there was with The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask?

Aonuma

I don't think either of us really tried to pick a fight... Did we?

Iwamoto

No. (laughs)

Aonuma

Only, Iwamoto-san directed The Legend of Zelda: Phantom Hourglass, but it wasn't a completely original work as far as he was concerned.

Iwamoto

That's true. We had The  Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker9 to start from, and we also did things like bringing the boat play over to Nintendo DS.

Iwata

I see. The Legend of Zelda: Phantom Hourglass felt quite original to me, but the boat parts are similar at their base levels, and they were expressed through the application of a method you created for The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker.

9. The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker" is an action-adventure game for GameCube, originally released in December of 2002.

Aonuma

Even as he applied it, he searched like mad for things he wanted to tinker with and improve from The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker.

Iwata

I see.

Aonuma

And the results really paid off for The Legend of Zelda: Phantom Hourglass. So for Spirit Tracks, I think he wanted to be free to make things he'd thought of on his own... Is that about right?

Iwamoto

Yes (laughs).

Aonuma

Then, among the characters who appear this time, we really focus on  Princess Zelda.

Iwata

Tetra showed up in the last game, didn't she.

Aonuma

Yes, but she doesn't in this one. Back when I heard the story's rough outline, I asked, "What? Why isn't Tetra making an appearance?" And he said, "Well... I don't like Tetra all that much."

All

(explosive laughter)

Aonuma

"What do you mean, you don't like her!?" "Don't cause me trouble, now. You mustn't say things like that..." That's about how the exchange went. (laughs)

Iwamoto

(laughs) But it wasn't that I didn't like her so much as that I was enthusiastic about characters in my own way. I was searching for something that hadn't been portrayed much, and there was Princess Zelda. At first, we hadn't settled on the subcharacter, and I discussed several things with the staff. Then we thought that, since they're adventuring together, it would be better to have it be a girl. But, you know, we couldn't have it be Tetra every time, so we started to consider introducing a new character. The thing is, though, it's "The Legend of Zelda". I thought it wouldn't be much fun if Princess Zelda didn't show up and if we brought in some unrelated princess instead, so, in the end, I asked for permission to use Princess Zelda.

Iwata

And what was Aonuma-san's answer?

Iwamoto

Um... "Whatever. Just do what you want."

Aonuma

What!? I didn't say it like that!

All

(explosive laughter)

Iwata

There, you see? There was an argument! (laughs)

Aonuma

I said, "Why don't you try it?" Politely. Didn't I?

Iwamoto

Did you?

Aonuma

Oh, quit making trouble for me... (laughs).

Play That's Only Possible on a Train
Iwata

...About  the train.

Aonuma

I knew that was coming. (laughs)

Iwamoto

We were sure you were going to ask that. (laughs)

Iwata

Does somebody like trains? Before I discovered video games, back when I was in middle school, I was absolutely crazy about trains. There were steam locomotives which ran in Hokkaido and were about to be decommissioned, and I went up there and tracked it down so I could get photos, and I collected model trains.... Things like that. Was there a railroad fan on the development staff?

Aonuma

No railroad fans.

Iwamoto

There weren't any at first.

Iwata

What do you mean, "at first"?

Iwamoto

Well, of course, while we were researching trains, some of the staff members got interested in them.

Aonuma

But at first, we didn't have a single railroad fan. At the beginning, since we were making a new The Legend of Zelda, I put out a proposal. I said, "This time, why don't we do away with the ship? Instead, let's have a big, "The Legend of Zelda -like" development, where you rush across the land of the wide world, headed to some place you've never been."

Iwata

So boats were out completely.

Aonuma

Right. No boats allowed (laughs). I think it's fun to have a new land becoming clearer and clearer right before your eyes, and have all sorts of different developments open up. It piques your sense of adventure, too. But then we had to think about what to use as a mode of transportation, in place of a boat, and at that point, I remembered a certain picture book.

Iwata

A picture book?

Aonuma

...Which I brought with me today...

Iwata

This book? "The Tracks Go On"?10

10. "The Tracks Go On" - A picture book published by Kin-no-hoshi sha Co., Ltd. in 2003. Story by Fumiko Takeshita, art by Mamoru Suzuki.

Aonuma

My son loved this book. When he was four or five, this was the book he'd bring me every night before bed. "Read it, Daddy, read it." In the book, the children keep on...

Iwata

(flipping through the book) ...Laying the tracks.

Aonuma

They come across all sorts of things, and, for example, when they find a mountain...

Iwata

...they dig a tunnel. When they come to a river, they build a bridge...

Aonuma

When they come to a road...

Iwata

They build a railroad crossing.

Aonuma

Up until there, it's an ordinary story.

Iwata

Yes.

Aonuma

But this is where it gets interesting. They come across a great big pond. And there are animals there, so they start wondering what to do. And what they do is...

Iwata

Oh, they go around it. To protect the animals.

Aonuma

I love that. (laughs) At that point - and since I read it to him every night, I'm sure my son knew the answer too, but I asked anyway - I always asked, "What do you think they'll do?"

Iwata

You like the way they detour around the pond instead of filling it in and going over it.

Aonuma

We'd get to that part, the "punch line", and then I'd put him to bed. That was the routine. Then, at the very end...

Iwata

They make a station.

Aonuma

Yes. And then a train comes. And everybody gets on it and goes home. That's the story. It's a very simple one, but the pioneering spirit, the kids building the railroad... Something about it seemed as though it would fit with The Legend of Zelda But I didn't tell the staff about this book.

Iwata

Even though you'd gotten the idea from it, you kept it secret.

Aonuma

That's right (laughs). I didn't tell them about the book, I only said, "Let's make it a train." And then, "Let's make it so that you can lay the tracks yourself." I brought it up, and we started from that experiment.

Iwata

I see.

Aonuma

But, at first, when I thought it up, I was very casual about the whole thing. I'd say "It would be fun if we could lay the tracks, wouldn't it!", things like that.

Iwamoto

We all said that, didn't we? Cheerfully. (laughs)

Aonuma

But that turned into a bit of a nightmare. Because, you know, the actual laying of the tracks is a real pain. In the book, it's over in a few pages, but as you'd expect, trying to do it in a game is tough. And I just casually tossed the proposal out there. It was pretty unwise of me...

Iwamoto

Well, but when the rest of us heard your idea, we thought it would be a lot of fun to lay the tracks any way you liked, to be able to travel anywhere at will.

Iwata

So at first, the staff members thought laying the tracks would be fun as well.

Iwamoto

Right. But the problem is that, even if people can lay the tracks anywhere they like, they won't know where to lay them. Then, to make the story work, there are places where you absolutely mustn't go, and other places where you really can't be at certain points in time. So we examined all sorts of different ways of playing. That went on for about a year.

Iwata

A whole year? But your development period was two years...

Iwamoto

We spent half of those two years on the railroad. And then, one day, Aonuma-san said, "Why don't we just drop the idea of laying the tracks?"

Iwata

At first, you started development from the angle of making it possible for players to lay the tracks anywhere they wanted, and then, one year later, Aonuma-san said, "Let's not"... How did the team handle that?

Iwamoto

Well...

Iwata

Did it feel as though a small tea table had been upended?

Iwamoto

Not... a small one. A pretty giant one (laughs).

Iwata

Well, you'd spent a year making it, and then it just went south on you. How did you fix it?

Aonuma

In this world, the tracks were there to begin with, but for some reason they've been erased. The player has to put them back to the way they were.

Iwamoto

In other words, somebody's erased these tracks, and Link brings them back together, little by little.

Aonuma

Then, we remade it that way, and when we took it to the monitor, lots of people said, "It's easy to understand and easy to play".

Iwata

If you're completely free, you don't know quite what to do. If your goal is clear, I'd guess that makes it a lot easier to play.

Aonuma

Yes. With the railroad tracks, there's a clear route, and people said it was really fun to work on steadily expanding them. So I thought, "Well, I had that part right." (laughs) But on the other hand, some people in-house felt that the freedom may be lost. But even if the destination is set, there's a freedom in the expansion.

Iwata

So there's an increase in a different sort of freedom.

Aonuma

That's right. Not only that, we stumbled on a new way to play. What if you're racing down the tracks, and something comes barreling towards you from the front?

Iwata

You've got to avoid it somehow.

Aonuma

Right. But all the railroad tracks are single lines. So you can't avoid it, you'll have to crash into it. And there are some trains that will definitely defeat you, if you run into them.

Iwata

So there's no way to run (laughs).

Aonuma

We made it possible to brake and back up, and to switch to another track when you come to a fork. You get through spots like that by using your head.

Iwata

I see. You can try backing up first, then switching to another track, and going on again once the enemy train's passed you.

Iwamoto

That's right. The tracks the other trains will be traveling on are marked on your map, so you can think, "If I wait here patiently, he'll go that way", and time your advances.

Aonuma

Play like that wouldn't be possible without a train.

Iwamoto

We felt a real pull from that sort of play, so we were very thorough when we made those areas of the game.

Customizing the Train
Iwata

Why did you subtitle it Daichi no Kiteki (Japanese meaning Train Whistle of the Wide World)"?

Aonuma

That comes from Director Iwamoto's name. Abbreviate "Daichi no Kiteki", and you get "Daiki".

Iwamoto

No, don't listen to him. That wasn't the reason. (laughs)

Iwata

(laughs)

Aonuma

We settled on the "Train Whistle" part very quickly. Of course it refers to the train's whistle, and then this game has one of The Legend of Zelda characteristic sound items in it, too.

Iwamoto

Players  can use a pan flute 11 this time.

11. Pan flute - Also called "pan pipes", they are said to be the world's oldest instrument. Made of grasses, bamboo or wood, they are found all over the world. However, at present, the ones from Romania and the Andes are particularly famous.

Aonuma

Since that's the case, we considered using "Pan Flute of the (something)" as a subtitle, but it would have been a bit long. Besides, you can use the pan flute, but it isn't a main item. Then, if you say "train", "train whistle" follows automatically, and a pan flute is also a "whistle", so we thought it might work for both.

Iwamoto

That's why we decided to use "Train Whistle", but we weren't sure what to do about the "something" in "Train Whistle of the (something)". That one gave us quite a headache.

Aonuma

Then, The Legend of Zelda: Spirit Tracks was decided as the subtitle for the North American edition, before we'd found ours. "Spirit" means "soul", so we took that and tried "Train Whistle of the Soul". But that made it sound kind of creepy, possibly haunted (laughs). We were making a pleasant game about running a train across wide-open spaces, and we just didn't think it fit.

Iwamoto

Finally, we asked for suggestions from the staff and wrote them all on a white board, and from those suggestions, we narrowed it down to "Train Whistle of the Wide World".

Aonuma

What finally decided it was the sound. When I said, "Train Whistle of the Wide World", it just rolled off the tongue.

Iwamoto

And it was easy.

Aonuma

Then, after we'd decided on "Train Whistle of the Wide World" amongst ourselves, we sent an e-mail to Miyamoto-san, asking him what he thought of it. And he just answered, "I think it's good".

Iwata

"I think it's good" is a pretty short answer. What did you think when you got that back?

Aonuma

It really did feel like he was brushing us off. So we asked him again, "Are you sure you're taking this seriously?", and he said, "Of course I am. My first impression was that it was good, so I said 'I think it's good'!" (laughs).

Iwata

And if something's bad, he does say it's bad (laughs).

Aonuma

Absolutely. When something's bad, he really lets you know about it (laughs).

Iwata

When something's no good, there are always lots of reasons why it's no good, but when it is good, you don't really need reasons, you know. Still, not having him say anything must have made you a bit nervous.

Aonuma

It did that (laughs). Miyamoto-san was probably busy with the New Super Mario Bros. Wii12.

12. New Super Mario Bros. Wii - An action game for Wii released on November, 2009.

Iwata

And you think he might have been distracted? (laughs)

Aonuma

But anyway, that's how we decided on "Train Whistle of the Wide World", and we took to it very quickly. It never felt strange to us.

Iwamoto

We got used to it, yes. And that's not all; the pan flute is called "Whistle of the Wide World", too (Spirit Flute in the US version.)

Iwata

I see. "Whistle of the Wide World".

Aonuma

Not only that, the areas where action takes place are all called "Wide World of the Something", too, so the place where the ocean is is called "Wide World of the Ocean".

Iwata

"Wide World of the Ocean"...?

Aonuma

"Wide World", even though it's ocean (laughs).

Iwamoto

They told us that "Wide World of the Ocean" was weird, no matter how you look at it, but we wanted all the names to match.

(Editor's note: In the North American version the Wide Worlds are called 'Realms' as in 'Ocean Realm')

Iwata

By the way, about the "Whistle of the Wide World" pan flute... Why is it that every The Legend of Zelda game has some sort of sound item in it? I've wondered about it for years. Is it because the sound staff is in on making the puzzles, too?

Iwamoto

There isn't a sound item in every game. There wasn't one in the last one.

Iwata

Oh, that's right. There was one in The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina and in The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker, but I suppose there isn't always something.

Aonuma

As you'd expect, when the sound team takes a firm line and tells us, "We want to try doing this this time", we often do use that as our jumping-off point. So I think that they do feel as though, since it's The Legend of Zelda", we should use some sort of sound item. In this case, the pan flute was brought up fairly early in the game. Then, too, the mike input capabilities are featured pretty prominently in this game, so the two concepts meshed together neatly.

Iwata

There are a lot of places that use the mic, aren't there.

Aonuma

Yes. But if we worked the players too hard, they'd run out of breath.

Iwamoto

Right, please blow gently. (laughs)

Iwata

You don't need to blow hard at all, do you.

Aonuma

No. Then, the sound team worked very hard this time, and there are all sorts of whistle sounds for them to enjoy.

Iwata

What do you mean, all sorts of whistle sounds?

Aonuma

This game also supports tag mode, too. It's made so that you can collect parts for the train.

Iwamoto

In the previous game, we had players collect parts for the ship. You'd wind up with parts you didn't need, and you could exchange those for parts that you hadn't managed to get.

Aonuma

It's a little different this time, though. There are "treasures", and you can collect many different types. Once you've accumulated a set number of a certain sort of treasure, you can exchange those for your train part. Not only that, the things you collect vary from player to player.

Iwamoto

The treasures show up randomly. It's different for every person.

Aonuma

They'll collect most of the things which it's easy for them to collect, but...

Iwata

By using the tag mode of Nintendo DS, or "passing transmissions", they can collect more effectively.

Aonuma

That's it. This train is split into four sections: the train itself, the gun battery, and then the passenger cars and freight cars. You can customize all of them. There are all sorts of different variations to play around with, and one of them is pretty incredible.

Iwamoto

Yeah, that one really is something else. (laughs)

Aonuma

It's really startling. You can customize it into something which makes you think "...This is a train!? No way..." (laughs)

Iwata

And so, the sound of the whistle changes too. (laughs)

Aonuma

Yes it does. The normal train whistle is the usual, low-pitched one, but they'll get to hear some very interesting whistles, too.

Iwamoto

...Some of which will make them think, "This is a whistle? No way..." (laughs)

Aonuma

Well, you can't really call it a train any more, so it doesn't matter if it doesn't sound like a whistle. (laughs) Anyway, that's how much fun you can have with it, so we definitely want them to use tag mode.

When You Hear 'That Legend of Zelda Sound'
Iwata

By the way, in  The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess interview on the "Iwata Asks - Wii Project", the words "essence of The Legend of Zelda" came up quite a lot. How much did the Nintendo DS The Legend of Zelda team talk about The Legend of Zelda theory?

Iwamoto

Well, frankly, not much.

Iwata

But this is very The Legend of Zelda-like. It has that feel to it. Why do you suppose it is that a team can talk about that a lot when they make it, or not talk about it much at all when they make it, and both products turn out to be The Legend of Zelda-like?

Aonuma

It is odd, isn't it.

Iwamoto

But I did think that I didn't want to get too caught up in making it "The Legend of Zelda-like". There was even an argument about how a train didn't really seem to fit with "The Legend of Zelda".

Iwata

Ah, yes, I did hear a little about that. You mean that debate, the one about whether or not it was really all right to have a train in The Legend of Zelda.

Iwamoto

Then people were wondering whether we shouldn't change the train to something else. Still, we talked to the designer, and to all sorts of people, and we ultimately decided to stick with the train. In the first place, everybody has their own idea of what The Legend of Zelda is supposed to be like.

Iwata

Iwamoto-san, if you absolutely had to say what The Legend of Zelda is like, what would you say?

Iwamoto

I wonder...

Aonuma

That's a hard one.

Iwamoto

It really is.

Iwata

Well, I suppose if one could put it into words that easily, there'd be no need for everyone to argue on and on about what's "The Legend of Zelda-like" and what isn't.

Iwamoto

True. Besides, there are some things we've managed to avoid, in a good way, that we might not be able to avoid any more if we normalized it too much.

Aonuma

Is it all right if the Producer takes a stab at it, then? (laughs)

Iwata

Of course. Mr. Producer, take the floor. (laughs)

Aonuma

Although this isn't an original comment...

Iwata

Not original? Well, at least you're honest (laughs).

Aonuma

Ten years or so ago, the "Hobo Nikkan Itoi Shinbun (Almost Daily Itoi Newspaper)" ran an interview with Miyamoto-san, after he'd made "Ocarina of Time". In that interview, there was a bit that made me think, "Oh, so that's what it was".

Iwata

And you didn't know about the article back when it first came out?

Aonuma

I'd probably read it, but at the time I just thought, "Huh..." (laughs) It's probably because I wasn't directly involved. I read it just after finishing the The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time job, and at the time, I had no idea I'd keep making The Legend of Zelda. Only, I was asked in an interview about the period when I was working on The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time; it had been a while, and I'd forgotten quite a bit, so I reread the article as a sort of review. And then, among the things Miyamoto-san had said, there was something that really made an impression on me.

Iwata

What was that?

Aonuma

He said, " I want people to see that there are no games that compare to this one" (interview in Japanese). The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time was a game where we did things that others would never think to try.

Iwata

That's true. Hearing that they tried to make The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time a game with such an overwhelming presence that no other game could compare, and that they gave it their very best, is incredibly convincing.

Aonuma

That's why we made it so detailed. If we didn't do that much, I thought, the end product wouldn't be really overwhelming, something other people wouldn't do. This already came up earlier, but even with the railroad, we experimented with a lot of things at first. Honestly, if somebody had said, at the beginning, "That's just a pain; let's not bother with it", I wouldn't have been surprised. But doing things simply because you don't know whether or not they'll work until you try them... I think that in itself is...

Iwata

'A thoroughness that others don't even think to attempt', you mean.

Aonuma

Yes, that's it. This time, we were trying for a game that used trains in a way no other game had used them before. So, as Iwamoto-san said before, we had some people asking 'A train in The Legend of Zelda? Are you sure?' But, as far as I'm concerned, trains are just fine. I felt as though, if the train became something that couldn't be portrayed by anything else, then that would be The Legend of Zelda.

Iwata

I see.

Aonuma

By the way, Iwata-san, what do you think The Legend of Zelda is?

Iwata

Well, to me... When I'm playing, and I think "Is it even possible to solve this puzzle?", and it's really giving me trouble, but then something gives me a brainstorm and I solve it, and " that The Legend of Zelda sound" plays... (laughs) When I hear that "You've solved the puzzle" sound, even though I had to work so hard on it, it makes me want to work on the next one right away. To me, that's the essence of The Legend of Zelda.

Aonuma

I think it's the same for us, too.

Iwamoto

Yes, it is.

Iwata

I see. (laughs) When you're developing it, and you're working so hard on it, and worrying over it, and you finally find the perfect way to do something, you hear that sound in your head.

Aonuma

Oh, we do. (laughs)

Iwamoto

It does. (laughs)

Aonuma

When things are really tough, and we come up with an answer right at the last minute, and we decide, "Hey, this is pretty good!", then we all...

Iwata

...hear that sound in our heads. (laughs)

All

(laugh)

Iwata

You know, that "The Legend of Zelda sound" might have left its mark in gaming history.

Aonuma

It sticks in your head.

Iwata

It really does.

Aonuma

We're actually changing it, little by little, but we can't change it too much. If we changed it drastically, it would turn into something completely different, so...

Iwata

No, you absolutely mustn't change that. (laughs) Not that sound, and not the one that plays  when you've opened a treasure chest and gotten something good.

Aonuma

You're right, we really can't change those. They're like a venerable restaurant's secret sauce (laugh). ...And we've inherited them.

Iwamoto

We're all careful to protect traditions like those. Nobody's ever suggested trying to change them. I think everybody understands that those are The Legend of Zelda.

Iwata

You know, though, it's funny that the action of making The Legend of Zelda itself is a lot like solving the puzzles in The Legend of Zelda.

Aonuma

I thought it was pretty good, if I do say so myself. (laughs)

Iwamoto

Did you hear that sound inside your head?

Aonuma

Yes. (laughs)

New Puzzles and Drama
Aonuma

In Spirit Tracks, I think the staff properly absorbed their own definitions of what The Legend of Zelda is, and created new ways of playing while protecting past traditions.

Iwamoto

It's the same with the subplayer's puzzles.

Aonuma

The person who thought up the subplayer puzzles was another former programmer, like Director Iwamoto. The puzzles that planner thought up are games that make you use different parts of your brain than usual.

Iwata

At EAD, there are lots of planners who came from Design - such as Miyamoto-san, Tezuka-san, and you, Aonuma-san - and relatively few people from Programming, aren't there. Do you think the puzzles are different from the usual ones precisely because someone from Programming thought them up?

Aonuma

I do. They're clearly different. And, when I tried them, I felt, "Oh, I see! I never would have thought of this!" many, many times.

Iwata

And I think, once the people playing the game have solved those, they'll be able to think, "Hey, check it out! How smart am I, huh!?" That's one of the best parts about the puzzles in The Legend of Zelda.

Aonuma

But there was one place that I just could not manage to solve. We were still in development, so I thought, "It's probably a bug", and I went to the planner and said, "This isn't solvable, is it." And he said, coolly, "No, it is." (laughs)

Iwata

I bet that was pretty mortifying. (laughs)

Aonuma

So, during the final half, things sort of turned into a battle of wits between the planner and myself. (laughs) I said, "I am absolutely going to solve this!"

Iwata

That's probably exactly what he wanted. (laughs)

Aonuma

But they really do make you use your head in different ways. I was a Liberal Arts man, so maybe I feel it more strongly because of that. In any case, I think you can look forward to puzzles the likes of which you've never seen.

Iwata

This time, they've added Science puzzles, you mean.

Aonuma

Right. (laughs)

Iwata

Well now, is there anything you feel you just have to tell the players about The Legend of Zelda: Spirit Tracks?

Aonuma

Quite a lot of women played the previous game, The Legend of Zelda: Phantom Hourglass...

Iwata

And actually, if you look at the registration on Club Nintendo, although The Legend of Zelda series has traditionally had more of a male audience, on the Nintendo DS, it seems as though lots of women are also enjoying it.

Aonuma

In fact, my wife's played it all the way through to the end. She doesn't play video games very much, but even so, she plugged away at it all by herself, all the way through. So I'd really like it if women would play this game too. When I took the game to have it play tested, I asked for "people who really weren't acquainted with The Legend of Zelda", and they had a female staff member from the same department play it. And she wrote in her report, "I didn't know that playing The Legend of Zelda could give you such a sense of achievement. There were times when it made me want to say ‘All right! I did it!'." Of course, she might have been saying some of it out of consideration for the staff, but still.

Iwata

One of The Legend of Zelda software's biggest features is that great sense of achievement, and she had actually played the game when she said that; I really don't think she was just being nice.

Aonuma

That's true. She also said that, although the puzzles were a bit hard, even when she couldn't solve one on the first try, she didn't feel averse to taking another shot at it. She wrote that in her report as well. Since that's exactly what The Legend of Zelda is trying for, I thought I'd really like women to try playing this game as well. Although I guess trains do have a bit of a little-boy feel about them...

Iwamoto

But I hear there are a lot of female railroad fans out there.

Aonuma

Are there? Well, that's all right, then. (laughs)

All

(laugh)

Iwata

What about you, Iwamoto-san?

Iwamoto

I mentioned this a little while ago, too, but I think there are some people who may feel that trains and The Legend of Zelda don't really mix. If you try it, though, you'll see that it really is The Legend of Zelda-like.

Iwata

It has the essence of The Legend of Zelda.

Iwamoto

Yes. I think, at this point, the game couldn't exist without that train. Also, when playing The Legend of Zelda, people tend to clear one dungeon and rush straight on to the next one, playing as though speed were the important thing. I'd like them to slow down a bit; don't rush straight through it. Take detours and side roads while you play.

Iwata

By taking detours, they'll actually be able to enjoy a denser, richer The Legend of Zelda.

Iwamoto

That's right. By using the train to move around, the world just keeps expanding; they can enjoy all sorts of events in all sorts of places, and get to know more and more about that world.

Aonuma

Actually, they'll get to see various dramatic developments at those events. We've also put in a lot of elements for grownups, so I think women will be able to enjoy the game for that reason, too. Can I say one more thing?

Iwata

Sure, go ahead.

Aonuma

In the last game, we used Nintendo Wi-Fi Connection and made a complete strategy game which you played one-on-one. But then lots of players told us, "It's too hard". I actually battled everybody else, too, and I didn't win much either.

Iwata

Even the producer couldn't win? (laughs)

Aonuma

The mechanics of the game were incredibly fun, but it really was too hard. So this time, we made things a bit more action-oriented and created something people can really get excited about playing.

Iwata

This time they'll be able to play with the people around them, right?

Aonuma

That's right. It uses local wireless, and up to four people can play.

Iwamoto

If one person has the game card, the other players can play via download.

Aonuma

So, whenever people get together, like at New Year's, they can download it and just have fun.

Iwamoto

Basically, it's a game where everybody tries to get the Force to win, but with this particular concept, as with "Mario Kart", they can get all hyper and excited as a group. So we put in lot of things where you can make a comeback with one shot, or get an item and turn the tables completely.

Aonuma

For example, the strongest Phantom shows up, and even as you're running around trying to get away from him, you can actually lure him towards you, and send him at one of your friends...

Iwata

So you send him at each other and intercept each other to get the Force.

Aonuma

That's it. (laughs) We've let them have their heads a bit more this time, and they can get all hyper and really have fun when they play, so I'd like them to play it with their friends.

Iwata

In other words, when a few people with Nintendo DS system's get together, they've now got one more way to have fun. By the way, Aonuma-san, doesn't this game have a really great feel to it, too?

Aonuma

Yes. It feels as though we did the absolute best we could possibly do in that short production period. Even though we used up the first year on the railroad issue... I feel as though people are going to talk about how, for a producer, I've got no talent for planning...

Iwata

But it's because you worked so hard during that year that it took the shape it has now.

Aonuma

I do think so. But this experience showed me very, very clearly that once you start a train to move, it's incredibly hard to stop it. (laugh)

All

(laugh)

Wii Motion Plus Inspires New Controls: [[SS -]] (2010)
This 2010 Interview on the topic of SS - features Satoru Iwata, Eiji Aonuma, Hidemaro Fujibayashi, Ryuji Kobayashi, and Ryo Tanaka.

Starting with a Detour
Iwata

Everyone, thank you for gathering today.

Everyone

It's a pleasure.

Iwata

So you're finally…

Aonuma

Yes. (laughs)

Iwata

You're reaching the end?

Aonuma

Yes. We truly are nearing the end now.

Iwata

Are you a little sad?

Aonuma

(laughs) Yes. When it is completely finished, I suppose I really will be sad. But it won't be long before I feel like making something again. (laughs)

Iwata

(laughs) We're here to talk about The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword.

Aonuma

Yes.

Iwata

First, we made the Wii MotionPlus1 accessory, then we built it in to the Wii Remote controller in the form of the Wii Remote Plus2 controller, so one challenge this time was seeing how using that would change a Zelda game.

Aonuma

Yes, that's right.1. Wii MotionPlus: An accessory with a motion sensor for connection to the Wii Remote controller.

2. Wii Remote Plus: An enhanced version of the Wii Remote controller with the Wii MotionPlus accessory built in. Released October 2010.

Iwata

I mainly want to ask about that today, but first, I would like each of you to introduce yourself, including what you worked on with regard to this game. Aonuma-san, would you start?

Aonuma

I'm Aonuma, the producer. There have been all kinds of twists and turns since development began almost five years ago. Until completion of The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword, I talked with Director Fujibayashi about how we could take the project in a good direction, backed up the staff, and consulted with Miyamoto-san.

Iwata

You say that there were twists and turns, but I heard there were few detours this time compared to the last game The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess3.3. The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess: An action adventure game released for the Nintendo GameCube and Wii on November 2006.

Aonuma

Well…

Iwata

You can't say there weren't any? (laughs)

Aonuma

Yes. (laughs) I can't say there weren't any at all. I thought I would talk about that today.

Iwata

My impression is that you were able to articulately pack in a lot of elements the team had worked on in the game, that it has turned out to have an incredibly high concentration of ideas compared to other The Legend of Zelda games.

Aonuma

That's true. We took a detour along the way, but compared to previous Zelda games, we were able to pack in so many kinds of play that it practically bears no comparison.

Fujibayashi

I'm Fujibayashi, the director. I was in charge of overall aspects of the game, from the barebones of gameplay to the script. Every time we made something using Wii MotionPlus, I showed it to Miyamoto-san, Tezuka-san, or Aonuma-san and heard their opinions, remaking it until they said it was good.

Iwata

Before this, you worked on The Legend of Zelda: Phantom Hourglass4, right?

Fujibayashi

Yes, I participated as the Assistant Director.4. The Legend of Zelda: Phantom Hourglass: A pen action-adventure game released in June 2007 as the first game in The Legend of Zelda series for the Nintendo DS system.

Iwata

Now that you've experienced making The Legend of Zelda for both a handheld and a home console, what was different?

Fujibayashi

The amount of work involved. With a home console, making corrections is difficult.

Iwata

So many people work on a home console game that once instructions go out, it's hard to make changes later on.

Fujibayashi

That's right. That was the biggest thing. But before we began this game for the Wii console, since it was my first time working on a home console game, I was under a lot of pressure. But once we made it, I realized it didn't change much.

Iwata

You mean that it felt like a Zelda game?

Fujibayashi

Correct, in the way that I was making a Zelda game as the director.

Kobayashi

I'm Kobayashi, the design director. All kinds of enemies and residents appear this time. Each section had a leader for coordinating those, and I oversaw them.

Iwata

Have you worked on The Legend of Zelda for a long time?

Kobayashi

About my fifth year at Nintendo, I worked on the series for the first time as a designer in charge of enemies for The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker5 on the Nintendo GameCube system. This was my second Legend of Zelda game.

Iwata

So it had been awhile.

Kobayashi

Yes, that's right.5. The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker: An action-adventure game released for the Nintendo GameCube system in March 2003.

Tanaka

I'm Tanaka. I was in charge of coordinating the UI (user interface) section. Kobayashi-san mentioned how there were various leaders, and I was one of them.

Iwata

It is unusual for someone from the UI section, such as you, to appear here the first round of interviews. I think you are here because The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword uses Wii MotionPlus.

Tanaka

I think so. We gave a lot of consideration to how we should reflect the new Wii MotionPlus controls on the screen and to how we could make them easy for the players to understand.

Iwata

Aonuma-san, how did development of The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword begin?

Aonuma

After we finished The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess, we began work on the new game in the series. After awhile Fujibayashi-san had finished making The Legend of Zelda: Phantom Hourglass, and he showed us a planning document saying he wanted to make it. We had him be director and discussed something that would use Wii MotionPlus, which was developed right around that time, so players could freely operate the game. For about half a year after that, I have to say the mood was very nasty! (laughs)

Iwata

I heard. (laughs)

Fujibayashi

We tried a bunch of things for Wii MotionPlus, but it was really quirky.

Iwata

Wii MotionPlus is an incredibly sharp device, but a little distinctive. It's like an unruly horse.

Aonuma

Yes, exactly. No matter what we did, we couldn't tame it. Then Wii Sports Resort6 came out as the first game for Wii MotionPlus.

Iwata

That's right.6. Wii Sports Resort: A sports game released in July 2009. It was the first game for Wii MotionPlus. It features 12 leisure sports.

Aonuma

We played that and realized all you could do with it. Wii Sports Resort has all kinds of games like Swordplay and Frisbee® and you can play each one as its own separate game, but in The Legend of Zelda, you play everything on the same field.

Fujibayashi

That's right. You may be fighting with your sword and the next instant use the Clawshot or shoot an arrow or throw a bomb, so it was really difficult to make the game so you could use Wii MotionPlus to do those things smoothly all on the same field.

Aonuma

So I proposed to the staff to not use Wii Motion Plus afterall.

Iwata

You gave up once.

Aonuma

Yes. Then we started making a Legend of Zelda game that you would play using the original Wii Remote and Nunchuk. But then I fell under intense pressure from some other producers, who said, "Aonuma-san, why aren't you using Wii MotionPlus?!" (laughs)

Iwata

They were like, "Don't run away from it!" (laughs)

Aonuma

Exactly. (laughs) So I was like, "We got to do it!" I gathered the staff and we puzzled over how we could make it work. As a result, Kobayashi-san and those guys had a hard time. (laughs)

Kobayashi

Yes. (laughs)

Iwata

In what way?

Kobayashi

As Aonuma-san just mentioned, we had proceeded with a plan that didn't involve using Wii MotionPlus. We had already made something basic using button controls to fight, and we had taken development to where we were going to start cranking out a bunch of variations. But then Aonuma-san suddenly called us in.

Aonuma

I'm SO sorry about that. (laughs)

Kobayashi

We were like, "Aw, here it comes…" (laughs) We didn't have any existing knowledge of how it worked, so we weren't even at the starting point because we had to learn how it worked!

Iwata

So the detour started right at the beginning of development! (laughs)

Aonuma

Yes. And it was a huge one!

"Have it Stop."
Iwata

What obstacles appeared in making a game for Wii MotionPlus?

Kobayashi

In Wii Sports Resort, we use Mii characters, so making them is simple, but Link has a realistic figure.

Iwata

And he's equipped with items like a shield.

Kobayashi

That's right. And Swordplay in Wii Sports Resort uses sticks, so whichever way you swing, as long as the trajectory is right, no problem. But Link is holding a sword. You can't have him flap an enemy with the flat of his blade.

Iwata

Oh, I see. If the edge isn't facing the direction you swing, handsome Link would look rather foolish.

Aonuma

Exactly. He has to look cool when he swings his sword. He can't just have a sword stuck to his hand and simply move it. So we tried all kinds of things for that at first.

Kobayashi

Yes, we tried many things many times.

Fujibayashi

We really studied the skeletal structure of a person's skeletal structure.

Aonuma

At first we were too serious about faithfully representing human movement. Link still didn't look that cool, so we decided it was necessary to fake some parts.

Iwata

In other words, even if his movement isn't perfectly realistic in some ways, your brain smoothes over it.

Aonuma

That's right. Then Link's movement seemed more natural that way and we knew swordplay would work out. What's more, we were able to swing the sword in the direction we wanted and got to where we could think, "Which direction shall I swing from?" when fighting an enemy. But there's a really tough boss named Ghirahim who can read your movements.

Iwata

What he actually does is determine which direction he can be hit from.

Aonuma

Yes. Ghirahim fights barehanded. You'll think, "All right, I'll strike at him from this angle," but he expects that and  stops Link's sword with his hands.

Iwata

At Nintendo 3DS Conference 20117, Miyamoto-san said he struggled with that.7. Nintendo 3DS Conference 2011: A Nintendo 3DS presentation held in Japan on September 13, 2011.

Aonuma

That's right. Miyamoto-san kept saying, "You can't beat this guy!" (laughs)

Iwata

As a player, he was steamed. (laughs)

Aonuma

Yes. Well, he complained more than getting mad! (laughs) But he didn't tell us to scrap it, so I think he liked something about it. He said that he wanted us to make the way to win more instinctive, though.

Iwata

You can beat him by tricking him.

Aonuma

Right, you can. Ghirahim moves his hands wherever Link's sword is, so you trick him. I can't go in to it in detail, but I would like for people to fight him thinking how you can trick him with your attacks.

Speaking of sword movements, before all this there was an idea about being able to stop the sword mid-air

Iwata

You mean the sword is something you use to swing to defeat enemies, but now you're able to hold it still mid-air, and use it for other things. Who's idea was it that you could be able to hold the sword still?

Aonuma

Miyamoto-san, right?

Fujibayashi

I remember it clearly. All of a sudden, in the middle of the night, Miyamoto-san called us in and said, "Have it stop." I was like, "Have what stop?" and he said, "The sword." When I first heard "stop," I didn't think it was possible, but a moment later, I understood and was like, "Stop…? Oh, stop… I get it!"

And there was more to that late-night conversation. After he suggested stopping the sword, he said, "Then you raise up the Wii Remote and while you're in that pose, energy builds up, and then you release a sword beam."

Iwata

Stopping the sword led to the sword beam?

Fujibayashi

Yes. At first, the two ideas were separate in Miyamoto-san's head, but I could tell as I listened that when he suggested stopping the sword, then he hit on the sword beam, and the two joined together at that moment.

Iwata

The ideas combined right then and there.

Aonuma

And his face lit up, right? (laughs)

Fujibayashi

He made a face like, "Pretty good, huh?" (laughs)

Everyone

(laughs)

Iwata

It's a perfect example of one idea solving multiple problems.

Aonuma

Yes. And once we adopted the sword beam, something like a ring would shoot out, making clearly visible which direction you had swung.

Iwata

Ah, I see.

Aonuma

And once we could hold the sword up high, we hit on the title of The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword.

Iwata

"Skyward" because you hold it up toward the sky, but I hear that there is a deeper meaning to it as well.

Aonuma

That's right. From what I heard from the NOA (Nintendo of America) localization team, the word "ward" also means to protect and guard something, so "skyward" can also mean "protector of the sky", and "one who is protected by the sky".

Iwata

That's very interesting. Using Wii MotionPlus, a device that can detect rapid movements to use it for fast-moving gameplay is one thing. I thought the person who thought up of stopping the sword as a form of play was incredible, and it was Miyamoto-san who suggested it.

Fujibayashi

Yes.

Iwata

That's a bit galling, I suppose. (laughs)

Fujibayashi, Kobayashi and Tanaka

Oh, yes.

Aonuma

Argh… I wish I thought of it!

Everyone

(laughs)

Iwata

Stopping the sword was revolutionary this time, but also important was freeing up the A Button.

Aonuma

Yes, that's right. (laughs)

Iwata

Up till now in the series, swinging the sword with the A Button was a matter of course, but using Wii MotionPlus frees up the A Button—an important point this time.

Aonuma

Yes, you can swing the sword without pressing the A Button.

Iwata

How did you decide to make use of the A Button then?

Fujibayashi

Every time we make a new Zelda game, Miyamoto-san assigns certain tasks, like "Add a new action." I wasn't involved with development, but for example, in The Legend of Zelda: Link's Awakening8, you jump with a feather.

Iwata

Yes.

Fujibayashi

In The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past9, you can pick up grass. So adding a new action was a theme whenever we made a new Zelda game. This time, we wanted to put in something before Miyamoto-san said anything and put in the dash action.8. The Legend of Zelda: Link's Awakening: The first game in The Legend of Zelda series for the Game Boy system released in August 1993. In December 1998, the remake The Legend of Zelda: Link's Awakening DX was released for the Game Boy Color system.

9. The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past: An action-adventure game released for the Super Famicom system in April 1992.

Iwata

You assigned that to the A Button.

Fujibayashi

That's right. Link could dash before, but if he ran into a wall or other obstacle, he would stop on a dime.

Iwata

In The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past, if you rammed into a tree or house, it would knock you down.

Fujibayashi

Yes, and that interrupts the flow of the game. For that reason, I had a strong desire to put in some kind of action so that whatever you hit, it reacts and won't kill your speed. Thus, we made an Link able to  dash up.

Aonuma

As a result, since you're not using the A Button as you usually would for your sword, after you select an item with the B Button, you can smoothly perform the action of using the A Button to dash up.

Iwata

When you see videos of Link  dashing up and over an enemy to move behind him, it feels great.

Aonuma

And you can scurry up a small cliff or steep slope.

Fujibayashi

But once your energy runs out, Link runs out of breath. His shoulders heave and he wheezes. (laughs)

Iwata

(laughs)

Selecting Items Without Looking at the Screen
Iwata

Wii MotionPlus allows you complete control over Link's sword, and you can stop that sword in mid-swing, fire a sword beam, and dash up using the A Button, but another big point is the big change from previous games in the UI for choosing an item.

Aonuma

That's right. As alluded to earlier, in The Legend of Zelda games you have to be able to switch items in a flash.

Iwata

Yes.

Aonuma

Until now, you had to open the item screen and choose the Bow or a bomb, disrupting the flow of the game. And that didn't seem right even to me. But the director Fujibayashi-san and Tanaka-san in charge of UI totally resolved that big problem.

Iwata

Fujibayashi-san, how did you do that?

Fujibayashi

We were using Wii MotionPlus, so I wanted to do something revolutionary even for switching items, and what I came up with was quickly switching items without having to look at an item screen.

Iwata

Item selection without looking at the screen. That truly is revolutionary.

Fujibayashi

Yes. I thought it might be possible with Wii MotionPlus, so after I had a rough idea of it, I talked to Tanaka-san and asked for the impossible. I explained it using gestures, like, "If you do this, then this happens." (laughs)

Iwata

After he laid that on you, Tanaka-san, how did you approach it?

Tanaka

When using the Wii Remote, the most common solution is to choose items with the pointer. But this time, we wanted to select items without using the pointer.

Iwata

That way you make use of Wii MotionPlus's features.

Tanaka

That's right. We tested arranging the items on the screen in a circle, and you twist the Wii Remote Plus like a rotary switch to select an item.

Iwata

You thought of selecting items the way you used to turn a dial to select television channels.

Tanaka

Exactly. But when we tried it out, you can only turn your wrist about 120 degrees, so when choosing one item from about eight, you end up selecting the wrong one a lot. Then we realized that turning your wrist wasn't the right way to go and tried tilting the Wii Remote Plus with your arm.

Fujibayashi

That way, even if you don't look at the screen,  the items are at certain angles and you can select them by tilting the Wii Remote Plus. As you play, you remember that, for example, the bow is at the top and your bombs are on the right.

Tanaka

For example, you remember with your body that if you tilt down, you switch to the Slingshot.

Iwata

So you can do it without looking at the screen. I think it was around the time you had just made that system, I remember very well that Miyamoto-san really bragged about it. He said, "Once you get used to it, you can select items with unprecedented speed and without interrupting the flow of the game. It's quite unique."

Fujibayashi

That was the first time Miyamoto-san ever praised me. (laughs)

Aonuma

Huh? The very first time? (laughs)

Fujibayashi

I'd never had that experience before, so I was overjoyed.

Tanaka

Yes. We were giving each other high-fives.

Iwata

(laughs)

Tanaka

That's how happy we were. We were like, "We finally did it!"

Iwata

He even mentioned it to me before it was even finished, so it must have really struck a chord with him.

Aonuma

I suppose so.

Iwata

Tanaka-san, looking back at it now, what struck you the most?

Tanaka

Hmm, it's difficult to pinpoint one thing, but what made me think it went well in the end was something I noticed when we were having game testers look at it. Many playing for the first time thought the remote was for pointing at the screen.

Iwata

They didn't notice that you controlled it by tilting the Wii Remote Plus.

Tanaka

That's right. Using it like a pointer is second nature for the Wii console, so everyone has that preconceived notion. But even if you try to point, you can select items. When that went well, I thought, "Oh, this is good!"

Iwata

The pointing movement syncs with the Wii Remote Plus controller's tilt. So once you get used to it, you realize that it doesn't have to be pointed at the screen all the time, which makes it much easier to play.

Aonuma

Exactly. Another important point is how when the finger icon appears on the item selection screen, there's a string attached to it.

Fujibayashi

That was quite an invention, if I do say so myself. (laughs)

Aonuma

Yes. There's a string attached to the icon, so even if you make a big movement with the Wii Remote Plus, it moves in a circle, but no further.

Fujibayashi

In other words, even if you the Wii Remote Plus is swung all the way out, the finger icon never leaves the screen.

Iwata

Oh, I see.

Aonuma

The first time I saw that, I thought, "What's with this unsightly string!" (laughs) But when I actually tried it out, it felt comfortable. When first seeing screenshots of that string, many people may feel like something is off, but once they play it, I hope they'll realize how comfortable it feels.

Iwata

The items are much more comfortable to choose. You can use familiar items from the series as well as new ones.

Fujibayashi

Take the good old Slingshot and Bow. Until now the sights jumped around and you had to point the Wii Remote to the screen all the time, but not this time.

Aonuma

That's right. You don't use the pointer. You hold the Wii Remote Plus like a bow and use the sites to take aim, so it doesn't waver. That way, when you accurately aim at something far away, it feels incredibly comfortable.

Tanaka

When it comes to the bombs,  if you swing the Wii Remote Plus from above, you throw one, but if you swing it from below, you roll it. And you can put a spin on them.

Iwata

You can spin the bombs?

Tanaka

Yes.

Aonuma

But getting it in the UI was pretty hard, because the arrow needs to bend so sharply on the screen.

Tanaka

That's true. The bomb will curve in the direction you twist the Wii Remote, so there's an arrow on the ground showing that direction.

Aonuma

Originally, you bought bombs at shops or picked them from Bomb Flowers growing from the ground, and then you used them,  but this time, you can pick them from a Bomb Flower and put them in a bag.

Iwata

You can gather bombs?

Aonuma

Yes. (laughs) At first, I thought, "Huh?! Is that all right?!" but when I actually did it, it felt incredibly natural. I've been involved with The Legend of Zelda games for a long time, so again I'm frustrated that I never hit on that idea before.

Iwata

(laughs)

Fujibayashi

When you store them, they're shooting off sparks. (laughs)

Iwata

They don't explode in your bag? (laughs)

Kobayashi

No. The fire goes out once they're in your bag.

Everyone

(laughs)

Rocket Fists Give Birth to an Ancient Civilization
Iwata

Could you introduce us to some of the new items that appear this time?

Aonuma

One is the flying  Hook Beetle in the form of the insect it's named after.

Iwata

Could we say it's a bug robot?

Aonuma

Yes, we call it that. At first, it was a boomerang.

Iwata

Huh? A boomerang turned into a beetle?

Aonuma

Yes. (laughs)

Fujibayashi

At first, a boomerang would spin through the air, and they fly out.

Aonuma

We thought it might fun if you could tilt the Wii Remote Plus so it flew however you wanted and tried out some things, but then we started talking about how that simply wasn't much like a boomerang. (laughs)

Iwata

I'd say not. (laughs)

Aonuma

And it had a camera. We wanted to think of an item that would fit better with that feature and came up with rocket fists. (laughs)(Editor's note: a rocket fist was something commonly seen in giant robot cartoons in the 1970's. Literally the fist with rockets attached would fly off of the hero robot's arm to punch and destroy distant evil enemies.)

Iwata

The boomerang suddenly became a rocket fist? (laughs)

Kobayashi

Yes. (laughs) At that time, it could also grab things, so we thought it would be cool if something like a hand were flying around.

Fujibayashi

In the end, it turned into a beetle. The way it looks like it flies out from your arm is leftover from the rocket fist.

Iwata

Got it. (laughs)

Fujibayashi

Beetle can fly quite some distance from Link, and we thought that might cause some trouble.

Iwata

It could have a markedly negative effect on gameplay.

Fujibayashi

Exactly. Players would be able to go to places and see things that they shouldn't yet. We realized that right away.

Kobayashi

The landform staff wouldn't stop complaining about it. (laughs)

Fujibayashi

They were livid, but we squeezed it in, and it turned into a very user-friendly item.

Iwata

But it makes one wonder how a mechanical marvel like a flying beetle would exist in the world of The Legend of Zelda.

Aonuma

But thanks to this mechanical item, we decided to expand on that theme, which gave birth to the ancient civilization that is part of the backdrop this time.

Kobayashi

That's right.

Aonuma

At first, we weren't thinking about having an advanced ancient civilization be part of the milieu. As you can tell from a rocket fist. (laughs)

Iwata

(laughs) So if you hadn't thought of rocket fists, the game wouldn't have involved an ancient civilization?

Aonuma

It may have been quite different.

Iwata

Ah…I think we'll make this section's title "Rocket Fists Give Birth to an Ancient Civilization." (laughs)

Everyone

(laughs)

Fujibayashi

But that's really how the ancient civilization came about, and then we could play it out, saying, "Let's make this person a robot," and "Let's make this place ancient ruins."

Iwata

It is true that we don't make The Legend of Zelda games based on a story. The process is the exact opposite of thinking up a story at the start, coming up with various settings, and writing a proposal. Of course, both ways are valid.

Fujibayashi

That's right. The way we make The Legend of Zelda games is like solving a puzzle, so it's really enjoyable.

Tanaka

That's right.

Iwata

You all like that. Wriggling around and landing. (laughs)

Aonuma

Oh, I see. You struggle and squirm, but pull off a solid landing, which feels really good. (laughs)

Fujibayashi

That's true. And the  Gust Bellows is a new item making its first appearance in a 3D Legend of Zelda game.

Iwata

That magic jar you use to blow stuff around, right? How did you come up with that?

Aonuma

That item first appeared a long time ago in The Legend of Zelda: The Minish Cap10, which Fujibayashi-san worked on.10. The Legend of Zelda: The Minish Cap: An action-adventure game released for the Game Boy Advance system in January 2005.

Fujibayashi

It can do anything. I love it! (laughs)

Iwata

Yes, the Gust Bellow is one of those things you whip out whenever you're in trouble.

Fujibayashi

You say, "It can even do this! After all, it's the Gust Bellow!"

Iwata

(laughs)

Fujibayashi

A game is fun when it has profoundly mysterious things, so we figure its best to prepare items for doing all kinds of things from the very start.

Aonuma

The Gust Bellow can blow around all sorts of things, but at first it could also suck things up.

Kobayashi

Oh, we did experiment with that.

Fujibayashi

It was a magic jar that could suck in and blow out.

Kobayashi

And you could narrow down the mouth like you might to adjust the flow of water from a hose. And if you twisted the end you could blow things further.

Tanaka

From behind Link's back, you couldn't see the mouth, so you were like, "What's going on?!" (laughs)

Aonuma

You couldn't see at all. (laughs) So we made it to only blow and realized that was enough to allow players to do all sorts of things. Then we decided to refine the satisfaction of blowing things around and it turned into a great item.

Fujibayashi

The  Whip is a new item, too.

Aonuma

Oh right, the Whip. Around the time of the E3 201011, Iwata-san said the Whip was cool.

Fujibayashi

And that decided it.

Aonuma

Yes. That statement alone set us to polishing it up.

Iwata

Huh? What I said did that?11. E3 (Electronic Entertainment Expo) 2010: A video game trade show usually held once a year in Los Angeles. Attendees of E3 in 2010 were able to experience The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword for the first time.

Fujibayashi

Yes. We were making a whip before that, but we weren't sure if we should actually use it. Then, before E3, we had a chance to have you look at a version still under development. The conversation turned to using this opportunity to put in a whip, and your response was amazingly positive.

Iwata

Well, I was really happy! (laughs)

Tanaka

Until E3, we hadn't done much with the Whip.

Kobayashi

It was a brand spanking new item.

Iwata

And I snapped at it. (laughs)

Aonuma

You sure did! (laughs) We thought, "Well, now we got to use it!"

Fujibayashi

We thought, "This'll work," and started seriously developing it.

Tanaka

If you swing the Wii Remote Plus, you can use it to haul in items.

Aonuma

And you can do things like snatch keys away from enemies.

Kobayashi

Uh, yes, but…

Aonuma

Yes?

Kobayashi

Is it all right to reveal that?

Aonuma

Oh, sure. Like Iwata-san said at the beginning, there's so much packed into this game that it won't matter.

Kobayashi

That certainly is true! (laughs)

"I'll Never Be Able to Play the Old Way Again!"
Iwata

I think being able to switch the items you're carrying with ease was one key to being good at playing The Legend of Zelda games so far.

Aonuma

I agree with that.

Iwata

But this time, that element of game operation has suddenly changed and the flow of gameplay has become incredibly natural.

Aonuma

That's true. The actions from choosing an item with the Wii Remote Plus to using that item connect smoothly, so gameplay has become seamless.

Kobayashi

You can select items this time while moving Link.

Aonuma

And  you can drink potion while running.

Iwata

Huh?

Aonuma

When an enemy is about to beat Link, you drink potion from a bottle in order to restore his hearts.

Iwata

Yes.

Aonuma

That scene was portrayed via cinematics-like moment while we stop gameplay through the previous title, but this time it fits in seamlessly, so, for example, if a boss is about to finish you off, you can run for your life and gulp down some potion to restore your health.

Fujibayashi

It isn't very seemly behavior, though. (laughs)

Aonuma

I guess not. (laughs)

Iwata

The other day, Miyamoto-san said, "I'll never be able to play the old way again!"

Aonuma

Yes, he's been saying that.

Iwata

But I would imagine that Wii MotionPlus presents a new challenge to the overwhelming majority of players out there. They must feel uneasy about the controls changing so dramatically.

Aonuma

I suppose so.

Iwata

Tanaka-san, as a developer of the game, what would you say to people like that?

Tanaka

I'd like people who feel they aren't very good at button controls to feel more confident about this game. I think some people have felt that with controllers until now there was a distance between themselves and the gameworld, but this time, when you want to do something, it is directly reflected in Link's movement via Wii MotionPlus, so the gameworld feels much closer. I would recommend they give it a try.

Iwata

How about you, Kobayashi-san?

Kobayashi

I was involved in development of Wii Sports Resort. I wasn't in charge of Tennis, but that game distinguished between forehand and backhand shots.

Iwata

You can swing the racket whichever way you want, from the right or the left.

Kobayashi

After growing accustomed to those controls, I played another tennis game and was like, "Oh…the racket's a button." (laughs)

Iwata

Using buttons as controls felt strange.

Kobayashi

That's right. When making this game, to confirm specifications, I played The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker and tried to swing the sword in whatever direction I wanted and couldn't do it. I then thought, "I can't go back."

Fujibayashi

I feel the same way. But the controls are new, so some people will feel something is a little off for the first 10 or 15 minutes.

Iwata

Because the manner of playing is so different than before.

Fujibayashi

But they'll gradually get used to it and the next thing they know, they'll feel like something is off about games you control by punching buttons.

Iwata

And you, Aonuma-san?

Aonuma

I feel as if Wii MotionPlus, and the Wii Remote Plus, have completely become tools. With a conventional controller, there are all these things you have to remember, being presented the controller and pressing these buttons—like remembering the right sequences in fighting games. To tell the truth, I'm not a big fan of games like that.

Iwata

You're not good at them? (laughs)

Aonuma

That's right, I'm not! (laughs) I can't remember the commands. But the compatibility between The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword and Wii MotionPlus are outstanding. Just by swinging the remote, or tilting it, or twisting it, you can perform all kinds of actions, so there's no need to remember anything. I hope people will feel as if they have a new tool and try swinging it around.

Iwata

I suppose it's like gradually becoming able to use a brush better, or a chisel.

Aonuma

Yes, it is. Or maybe a musical instrument. As you're using it, your body grows familiar with it and you gradually master the use of it.

Fujibayashi

Like Miyamoto-san said, it's part of your muscle-memory.

Aonuma

Yes, your body remembers it. So whatever you do, you can't go back to the way controls used to be. When I watch people play at game shows, I think it's interesting how everyone plays a different way.

Iwata

You can handle this tool any way you want, so each user's personality comes out.

Aonuma

That's right. It's interesting how some people move their body a lot and swing around the Wii Remote Plus, while some people make little discrete movements around their waist to move it.

Iwata

You can use the Wii Remote Plus without moving it a whole lot.

Aonuma

Yes. When you get tired, you can use less strength and play using less taxing movements.

Iwata

Development took five years. How were you able to keep going for so long?

Fujibayashi

As mentioned earlier, Miyamoto-san really praised us when we came up with the method of item selection. At that time, we felt a great sense of accomplishment as if we had climbed a big mountain, so we just kept saying, "All right, on to the next mountain."

Tanaka

We got really pumped up then and were like, "We can do this!"

Iwata

You were giving each other high-fives! (laughs)

Aonuma

Yes. (laughs) When we made that item selection system, everyone knew which direction to go. Not that many new items appear this time, but we wanted make each item or function as good as it could be. Everyone on the staff felt like if they really polished it up, it would turn out good.

Fujibayashi, Kobayashi, and Tanaka

(nodding)

Iwata

And that's what turned it into a Zelda game with a dense concentration of content.

Aonuma

I believe so.

Fujibayashi

We really enjoyed making it.

Kobayashi

We worked every day in hopes that players will enjoy it.

Tanaka

It became a habit to say, "That's one more thing that's cool now."

Kobayashi

And "That's one more thing that the players can enjoy."

Iwata

I see. You built up hundreds of individually interesting elements, like stacking up hundreds of thin pieces of paper until there's a thick pile.

Aonuma

That's right. Well, we did get a long time for development. (laughs)

Fujibayashi

Not just to make new things, but we also had plenty of time to make adjustments.

Aonuma

I don't think we wasted any time.

Iwata

But at first, you said, "We'll be done by spring." (laughs)

Aonuma

Uh…yes. (laughs)

Fujibayashi

You plan to hold a number of "Iwata Asks" sessions over The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword, don't you?

Iwata

Yes.

Fujibayashi

Do you plan to have one just focusing on the trouble we had with the development schedule?

Iwata

Like "Iwata Asks: The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword: Development Schedule Difficulties"? (laughs)

Fujibayashi

Yes, yes, like that! (laughs)

Aonuma

Huh? No thanks. I'll sit that one out! (laughs)

Everyone

(laughs)

Iwata

Good work, everyone.

Everyone

Thank you!

Sound
This interview features Koji Kondo and Mahito Yokota.

The Everchanging Music of Hyrule Field
Iwata

Thank you for coming today.

Kondo and Yokota

It's our pleasure.

Iwata

This year is the twenty-fifth anniversary of The Legend of Zelda.1 Today, I would like to ask you about the music in The Legend of Zelda. You have both appeared in "Iwata Asks" before, but would you please introduce yourselves?1. The twenty-fifth anniversary of The Legend of Zelda™: The first game in the series was released for the Family Computer Disk System in February 1986. The year 2011 marks 25 years since then.

Kondo

I'm Kondo from the Sound Group in the Software Development Department of the Entertainment Analysis & Development Division (EAD).

Iwata

In our session of "Iwata Asks" covering the twenty-fifth anniversary of Super Mario Bros., you said that the second game you worked on was Super Mario Bros.2 Does that mean your third game was The Legend of Zelda3, for which you worked on the music?

Kondo

Yes, that's right.

Iwata

It's amazing that a new employee at Nintendo would make the music for Super Mario Bros. as the second game he worked on, and then for his third game, make the music for The Legend of Zelda.

Kondo

I remember the development periods were right next to each other, with only about three months in between.

Iwata

Nintendo practically made Super Mario Bros. and The Legend of Zelda at the same time.

Kondo

Yes.

Iwata

The Legend of Zelda was for the Family Computer Disk System, which came out after the Famicom system, so you could use a new sound source.

Kondo

Yes. We could only use three sounds with the Famicom system, so that was hard.

Iwata

It went from three to four, and with the new sound source it was able to output sounds that were completely different than before.

Kondo

Yes. We mostly used the new sound source for sound effects, but just having one more was a big help, so I had a good time as I worked.2. Super Mario Bros.™: An action game released for the Family Computer (Famicom) system in September 1985.

3. The Legend of Zelda: An action-adventure game released simultaneously with the Family Computer Disk System in February 1986.

Iwata

All right, Yokota-san?

Yokota

Yes?

Iwata

Compared to Kondo-san, you may not have worked on development of The Legend of Zelda that long, but you've been playing it forever, right?

Yokota

You can say that again!

Iwata

Oh? (laughs)

Yokota

Talking about it could take forever! (laughs) I love The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time4 beyond all reason!

Iwata

Go on, tell me about it! (laughs)

Yokota

What about my self-introduction?

Iwata

Oh, I forgot! (laughs) By all means, introduce yourself!4. The Legend of Zelda™: Ocarina of Time™: An action-adventure game first released for the Nintendo 64™ system in November 1998. It was the first game in The Legend of Zelda series to feature 3D graphics.

Yokota

I'm Yokota from the EAD Tokyo Software Development Department. I appeared in the session of "Iwata Asks" about Super Mario Galaxy 2, but some people may wonder why I'm here talking about The Legend of Zelda.

Iwata

I suppose so.

Yokota

I've been steeped in The Legend of Zelda this past year.

Iwata

Steeped in Zelda?

Yokota

I only worked on The Legend of Zelda. Two games at the same time!

Iwata

Huh? Two at the same time? I didn't know that!

Yokota

One was The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time 3D and the other is The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword.5

Iwata

After development of Super Mario Galaxy 26 ended?

Yokota

Yes. That's about the time. At the E37 last year, when we were going to exhibit The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword for the first time, we talked about using orchestral music. But (Shigeru) Miyamoto-san said it wasn't necessary.5. The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword: The newest title in the series. Scheduled for release in 2011 for the Wii™ console.

6. Super Mario Galaxy™ 2: A 3D action game released for the Wii console in May 2010.

7. E3 (Electronic Entertainment Expo): A video game trade show usually held once a year in Los Angeles.

Iwata

We were going to have attendees of last year's E3 try out the new game's operability, so he said orchestral music wasn't necessary right away.

Yokota

Right. Then, toward the end of summer break, they finally decided to put in orchestral music and I joined the development team.

Iwata

You're sort of the orchestration director for the Legend of Zelda music, aren't you?

Yokota

Yes. I was in charge of the orchestral songs for The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess8 as well.8. The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess: An action-adventure game released for the Wii console and the Nintendo GameCube™ system in December 2006.

Iwata

Now pour out your love for Ocarina of Time! (laughs)

Yokota

Okay! (laughs) I have, of course, played all the Zelda games since the first one, and played them all the way through, but Ocarina of Time was an eye-opening experience to how great video game music can be. I played song after song on the piano.

Iwata

I feel like I heard something similar when we talked about Super Mario All-Stars Limited Edition in "Iwata Asks".9 (laughs)

Yokota

Really? I talked about that? (laughs) When Ocarina of Time came out, I was working at a different company, and I went around haranguing everyone about how awesome the sound was.

Iwata

I feel like I've heard that, too. I've got déjà vu! (laughs)

Yokota

Oh, sorry! I'm like a repeating record! (laughs) I may have said the same thing about Super Mario Sunshine.10

Everyone

(laughs)9. Super Mario All-Stars™ Limited Edition: Released for the Wii console to celebrate the twenty-fifth anniversary of Super Mario Bros. It included Super Mario Bros. and three other games. It is no longer available.

10. Super Mario Sunshine™: A 3D action game released for the Nintendo GameCube system in July 2002.

Yokota

Getting back to Ocarina of Time, the music was different every time you went out to a dungeon on an adventure and came back to Hyrule Field, the main setting of the game. The general feeling of the music itself didn't change that much, but the melodies came along at different timing.

And  even if it was the same song, if you were fighting an enemy, the tune would become more thrilling. Then, when the battle was over, it would return to the usual majestic music. When Link stood still, it would grow quiet. The music was constantly changing.

Iwata

It didn't always play the exact same music.

Yokota

Right. In the land of Hyrule, the music changed between three patterns, normal, battle and quiet.

Iwata

Back then when there were still strict restrictions in the amount of memory that you can allocate to sound, it was common to stream pre-created music tracks. But by taking advantage of the ROM cartridges of the Nintendo 64 system, it was possible for the music tracks to be combined and generated depending on the situation. That is why in Ocarina of Time, music was constantly changing throughout the entire game. But even though Kondo-san did that for the sound on Hyrule Field, I doubt many people back then noticed and could talk about it.

Kondo

Not many people noticed.

Iwata

Yeah, I bet not. So, aren't you a little happy that Yokota-san did? (laughs)

Kondo

(looking really happy) I'm so happy! (laughs)

Iwata

(laughs)

Kondo

He noticed! He really noticed!!

Iwata

Is it like, "Please say that again!"?

Kondo

Yes, I'm ultra-happy that he noticed it! (laughs)

Koji Kondo Upends the Tea Table
Yokota

It's nothing special now, but as long as I recall, no games before The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time switched seamlessly to the fight music when you were on an adventure and a fight scene began.

Iwata

That was new.

Yokota

When a fight started, the enemy motif would start. Then, when the fight was over, it would go back to the original music. I thought the transition was really smooth and clean. The feeling of plunging into adventure was so strong that—and I'm not saying this because I was not working for Nintendo at that time but—I thought Ocarina of Time was a great masterpiece to me.

Iwata

After a long history of loving Ocarina of Time, how did you come to work on the Nintendo 3DS version?

Yokota

In or around March last year, they were asking if anyone was available to work on the music for it. At first, I was going to leave it to the younger guys, but Kondo-san asked me to keep an eye on them.

Iwata

Kondo-san tapped you for the job?

Kondo

Yeah. They were really new guys, so I wanted him to teach them all about video game music.

Yokota

At first, I was involved as a supervisor.

Iwata

But I bet you couldn't bear to just look on! (laughs)

Yokota

Yeah. You got that right! (laughs) I told them to run everything by me.

Iwata

Because you love it. (laughs)

Yokota

Earlier, we talked about how back then games could only stream sound in most cases, and we were under technological constraints this time, too, so at first we decided to stream it. It was difficult technologically to change the music in realtime to fit different game situations.

For that reason, at first I decided to spruce it up by arranging slightly more up-to-date music. But when I'd done about half, Kondo-san suddenly said, "Make sure you stay faithful to the Nintendo 64 sound."

Iwata

Oh. (laughs)

Kondo

It was really sudden! He upended the tea table.

Kondo

Is that really an upending of the tea table?

Yokota

It sure was! (laughs)

Iwata

Kondo-san doesn't remember it that way. (laughs)

Yokota

So I gathered together the development team and said, "We've got to remake all the music. We need to recreate the Nintendo 64 sound, so let's do our best!" Then we set about redoing it all.

Iwata

You decided to faithfully recreate the Nintendo 64 sound.

Yokota

Yeah. By the way, Kondo-san, why did you have the music for Hyrule Field change each time?

Kondo

When I first heard the plan for Ocarina of Time, I thought, "This is going to be a really big game!" There was this big field in the center, and you needed to ride a horse to reach the other side!

Iwata

Yes, Hyrule Field was big enough that you were thankful for your horse!

Kondo

But if you went to all these dungeons and came back and the same old music was playing…

Iwata

You'd get sick of it.

Kondo

Right. I wanted to avoid players going to a dungeon and coming back to find the same song droning on. I thought about what I could do to have different music playing whenever you listened to it, and eventually I created several eight-measure "components" to play randomly.

Iwata

They shared a certain chord progression, so the music could shuffle them around.

Kondo

Right. Each group of eight measures ended with a chord that would lead nicely into whichever group started next. It sounded natural even when you played them randomly.

Iwata

How many of those "components" did you make?

Kondo

About 20. They're in battles, too.

Iwata

So even if the general atmosphere of the music is the same, it sounds different each time.

Kondo

Right. In your regular RPG, when an enemy appeared, the music would suddenly switch.

Iwata

The pattern for RPGs back then was for the screen to change, a fanfare to play, and fight music to start.

Kondo

Yeah. But in Ocarina of Time, you can see the enemy from far off. If the music suddenly went into fight mode, you would listen to the music for the fight mode even though you have not started the fighting, and when you went away, the music would switch back right away. The flow of the game would break down.

Yokota

It would be hard to get into the game.

Kondo

So I made eight-bar patterns for the fights, too. As you got closer to an enemy, they would smoothly transition into fighting music.

Yokota

And when the fight is over, the music smoothly goes back.

Iwata

You could compose music by thinking to that extent as early as in 1998, and I think you could do so because you had been making games together with Mr. Miyamoto.

Yokota

Yeah. In case of movies, the lengths for the safe scenes, fight scenes and calm scenes are predetermined.

Iwata

Movie music is compartmentalized at the start and made in line with the pre-determined length of the video. In the case of games, players interactively move the character, and the music interactively responds.

Yokota

What Kondo-san was most insistent about this time for The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time 3D was that interactivity. He said, "You absolutely must recreate that!"

Kondo

That's right.

Yokota

So even though you were arranging new music…

Iwata

Babam! He overturns the tea table! (laughs)

Yokota

Yep! (laughs)

Kondo

But I didn't have any intention of overturning any tea tables! I mean, if you changed the sound like that, it wouldn't be Ocarina of Time!

Yokota

Yeah…you're right. I'm glad we fixed it!

Everyone

(laughs)

The Sound of an Ocarina Drifting from the Forest
Iwata

In addition to making the music on Hyrule Field interactive, what was difficult in recreating the music for The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time 3D for the Nintendo 3DS system?

Yokota

In the first place, it was really difficult recreating the sound of a home console like the Nintendo 64 system on a handheld like the Nintendo 3DS system.

Iwata

Different hardware doesn't make the same sounds.

Yokota

Right. I have remade other games, but I was surprised how difficult it was this time.

Iwata

How so exactly?

Yokota

Like recreating distinctive sounds.

Iwata

Distinctive sounds?

Yokota

Take, for example,  the song for the Forest Temple. You can hear this odd sound like hooit-hooit-hooit-hooit…

Iwata

Right, right.

Yokota

I wanted to recreate that distinctive sound as closely as possible, but it just wouldn't sound the same as on the Nintendo 64 system. But I retuned it over and over for the Nintendo 3DS system's speakers, and in the end it turned out close to how I imagined it.

Kondo

Yeah. You recreated that song with a great deal of precision. The sound quality may be a little better, though.

Yokota

Yeah. I upped the quality a bit.

Iwata

It gets the Kondo seal of approval? (laughs)

Kondo

Absolutely. (laughs)

Yokota

Phew! (laughs) He did put in some requests, though. When I made the  title background music, he wanted me to make some adjustments.

Iwata

The title BGM music plays during the very first images when Link is trotting around Hyrule Field on Epona, right?

Yokota

Yeah. It's a real mellow song featuring an ocarina melody and piano accompaniment. Kondo-san said the volume of the ocarina was too high. I thought I had followed the original, so I thought, "Huh? How's it any different?" I had him listen to it over and over, and he said, "Ah, there's no reverb."

Kondo

Oh, that's right.

Yokota

Reverb is that echo like effect you get in a concert hall. There wasn't any of that in the song for Ocarina of Time 3D, so the ocarina really stood out.

Iwata

You could hear the ocarina too clearly.

Yokota

Yeah.

Kondo

I had the idea of the sound coming from far away. I wanted to create the atmosphere in the title BGM of someone you can't see in the forest playing an ocarina. When I heard the music Yokota-san had made, he had faithfully recreated the length of the notes, but it didn't sound like it was coming from somewhere off in the distance.

Yokota

That's right. I almost gave up. There was a fear that putting reverb into the Nintendo 3DS music would make the game too heavy and it wouldn't run right.

Iwata

Is adding reverb really that heavy?

Yokota

Yeah. But Kondo-san had told me to faithfully recreate the sound of the Nintendo 64 system, so I somehow managed to make it sound like it was coming from inside a forest. And, like we discussed earlier, we made the music on Hyrule Field interactive, so we ended up allotting a lot more of the CPU to sound than we usually would.

Iwata

In other words, you used more of the CPU for sound than in any other Nintendo 3DS game.

Yokota

That's right. It's probably heavier in sound than any other game. I think we've pressed the capacity of the Nintendo 3DS system to the limit as possible as we can today and are using lots of power. When it comes to the music on Hyrule Field, the music shifts seamlessly depending on the scene. And I think we were able to make the title BGM sound as if an ocarina is coming from inside the forest.

Kondo

I think so, too.

Yokota

Also, I think it's really important in faithfully recreating the sound of the Nintendo 64 version to generate the same sense of tempo as with the Nintendo 64 ROM cartridge. For example, when  collecting the Gold Skulltulas.

Iwata

You have to collect 100 spiders hidden within the field.

Yokota

Right. When you find a Gold Skulltula hidden in a dark spot and defeat it, a token appears that you can pull to you with the Hookshot. The flow of the sound when you pull it in is really satisfying. The tempo as it goes shwi-wi-wi-whip and then ends with a fanfare is great!

Kondo

But if we didn't adjust it just right, the tempo would break up.

Yokota

Right. The play speed would be out of sync. And the frame rates of the Nintendo 64 and Nintendo 3DS systems—the number of times the image is refreshed over the course of one second—are different.

Iwata

For the Nintendo 64 system, the frame rate was about 20, while it's 30 for the Nintendo 3DS system.

Yokota

Yeah. That throws off the timing of sound effects and other sounds. When the frame rates are different, how you handle the sound is different, so we adjusted each one until they were just right.

Iwata

So it will feel just right even to people who played the Nintendo 64 version.

Yokota

I think so. With regard to that, something really memorable happened. Early in the year, I went to Nintendo World 2011.11

Iwata

You performed onstage.11. Nintendo World 2011: An event held at Makuhari Messe in Japan for three days starting January 8, 2011.Presentations of Nintendo 3DS software and live performances were held on stage.

Yokota

Yeah! I played music from The Legend of Zelda on the piano. We exhibited Ocarina of Time 3D in the hall, and later I got to see the responses from those who had tried it out. Someone said they were happy that the music was the same as in the Nintendo 64 version!

Iwata

The fans must have been happy that the sound in the Nintendo 3DS version hadn't changed from the Nintendo 64 version. It calls up memories of playing it back in the day.

Yokota

Yeah. Reading that comment encouraged me. With the technology for transplanting games today, like emulation, many people think it's only a matter of course that games turn out the same.

Iwata

But this time, you put your nose to the grind making adjustments in order to recreate the Nintendo 64 version for the Nintendo 3DS version.

Yokota

Yes. So when I read that comment about how the music was the same, I felt like my hard work had paid off. I was also glad I hadn't done anything dumb like arrange new songs!

Iwata

So the upending of the tea table was a good thing? (laughs)

Yokota

I have to say it was! (laughs)

Orchestral Sound on the Nintendo 3DS System
Iwata

This time, you dedicated yourself to recreating several songs that Kondo-san had made over 10 years ago.

Yokota

Yeah. But I also put in a song recorded with an orchestra. Only one, though.

Iwata

As Nintendo's head man in charge of orchestral music, you just couldn't hold yourself back?

Yokota

Yeah…you got me. (laughs) You'll have to play the game to find out which song it is, though.

Iwata

You have the job every game fan can dream of!(laughs)

Yokota

Yeah, thankfully! (laughs) The orchestra sounds great on the Nintendo 3DS system, so I want people to hear it.

Kondo

I was actually involved with the hardware design for the Nintendo 3DS system's speakers and amps.

Iwata

Oh, that's right. Sound team members participated in figuring out how to achieve the best sound quality within the size constraints of the Nintendo 3DS system.

Kondo

We listened to various sizes in figuring out how many centimeters the speakers should be.

Iwata

A difference of one millimeter in the diameter of the speakers can make a dramatic difference in how they sound.

Kondo

Yeah. And we also made adjustments so the orchestral music would sound good.

Iwata

Oh, you did? You chose speakers and adjusted the amps with orchestral sound in mind?

Kondo

And we put special programming into the Nintendo 3DS system to improve the quality of the surround sound.

Yokota

So even though the speakers are fixed in the system, it feels like the sound is coming from around your ears.

Iwata

Once you hear that expansiveness, you'll feel like something is missing without it.

Yokota

Yeah. For example, there are lots of Cuccos at Lon Lon Ranch in Ocarina of Time 3D, and there's  a minimage called the Super Cucco Game in which you have to catch three Super Cuccos. When you play it with the surround sound, it sounds like the clucking is coming from all around you. The effect is outstanding.

Iwata

So you recommend playing with the sound coming out through the speakers to enjoy the surround sound.

Yokota

Yeah. If possible, I want people to play with the sound high.

Iwata

But you don't just rave about Ocarina of Time because of the sound, right?

Yokota

Of course not!

Iwata

Fans all over the world say that the Ocarina of Time is special. I wonder why so many people love this game? As a representative of such fans, what do you say, Yokota-san?

Yokota

May I?

Iwata

Yes, please!

Yokota

Until Ocarina of Time came out, The Legend of Zelda series was always in 2D. When Nintendo announced that the next game was going to be 3D, I was sorely disappointed.

Iwata

Until Ocarina of Time came out, you always looked at the game field from above.

Yokota

Right. I thought, "Why would they do that to such an awesome game?" I was shocked that you were going to destroy my idea of what The Legend of Zelda was supposed to be like. But it wouldn't have been right as a Nintendo fan if I complained without buying the game, so I thought, "All right, I'll buy it."

Iwata

You decided to give it a shot.

Yokota

Yeah. Besides, it was Shigeru Miyamoto-san's latest creation in The Legend of Zelda series, so I thought, "Well, I should take a look at it," as if I were one to judge! (laughs)

Iwata

Yeah… (laughs)

Yokota

I bought it and played it and (looking happy) was pleased that I didn't have to jump.

Iwata

It has Auto Jump.

Yokota

You jump without even pressing a button, and there was Z-targeting.12

Iwata

That's right! (laughs)

Yokota

I found out in Kokiri Forest on the very first stage that even though it was in 3D, you could play it like it was in 2D, and after that, I couldn't complain. I realized that as a 3D game, it was more than I had imagined. My prejudice against 3D action games was wiped out in about the first five minutes.

And you can't ever stop playing this game! The more you play it, the more tasks it presents you with. They're like personal challenges.

And all the puzzles in the dungeons were so well-made. I wanted to go around telling people about them! I'd be like, "I figured it out, but what about you?" as if I were the only one who'd solved them.12. Z-targeting: When Link™ faced an enemy and the player pressed the Z Button, a yellow target would appear, allowing you to swing your sword or attack with an item in that direction. Ocarina of Time 3D uses the L Button to target an enemy (L-targeting).

Iwata

The sound it makes when you solve a puzzle in The Legend of Zelda really makes you feel smart!

Yokota

Yeah. (laughs)

Iwata

Like, "Am I the only person in the whole world who figured this out?!" That can't be true…but still. (laughs)

Yokota

Yeah. (laughs) I played it through to the end. It has so much volume. I enjoyed going various places and seeing the whole gameworld.

Iwata

Ocarina of Time was the first game that made my legs get weak when I stood someplace high and looked down.

Yokota

You feel a thrill when you look out from a high place. That's something to pay attention to in the Nintendo 3DS version, too. You can climb a ladder in Kakariko Village. The view when you look out from there is superb!

Iwata

Ocarina of Time has always had a lot of great landscapes. I imagine that's also enjoyable in stereoscopy with the Nintendo 3DS version.

Yokota

I think it is.

Iwata

So, Yokota-san, this time you paid attention to how the sound aspects of The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time —the game that occupies a special place in the hearts of long-time players of the series—would change when remade with today's technology.

Yokota

It was thoroughly enjoyable.

Iwata

(laughs)

Yokota

It was work, though, so it was hard. For example, when I see a game someone else has made, sometimes I think, "Oh, I wish they would have handled the sound here a little differently." Well, this time I could focus on such places and give them my all, so I'm very satisfied.

Iwata

Kondo-san, from the point of view of someone who made the original game, how does it feel to hear Yokota-san talk so passionately about it?

Kondo

Well, it's harder than it seems to transport a game to a new platform. Unless you have the deep consideration for video games that Yokota-san does, you wouldn't do so much fine-tuning.

Iwata

In that respect, he was the perfect man for the job.

Kondo

I think so.

Yokota

Oh my… I'm glad I came today! (laughs)

Everyone

(laughs)

"I Envy First-time Players!"
Iwata

Yokota-san, when you make music, what do you think is the "essence of Zelda"?

Yokota

The essence of Zelda?

Iwata

Something you think the music absolutely must have.

Yokota

To put it in a somewhat abstract way, an exciting scene has music that's on fire. That's not quite right, but…

Iwata

Do you mean music that reflects what the player is feeling?

Yokota

A song for a battle with a huge enemy will even be exciting to me as I play the game. And I think music in The Legend of Zelda is very heroic. Just like in Super Mario Bros., you go to save a princess, but in the case of The Legend of Zelda, there's more of a sense that you are a cool hero risking your life for someone. I make music in strong consideration of what is happening at each point—music that sways your spirit, music that fires up your heart. What do you think about that, Kondo-san?

Kondo

What's most important to me when making music for The Legend of Zelda is generating an ambience expressing the situation and scene. Picking up on what Yokota-san said, Link is your other self in The Legend of Zelda games, but in a Super Mario Bros. game, you control Mario, a character on the screen.

Iwata

Ah, to you, Mario is a character you move with a controller.

Kondo

Yeah. Link is you. So it feels like you are in him when you play.

Yokota

I see.

Iwata

So in your head, you're wearing that green outfit. (laughs)

Kondo

Yeah. And that green hat! (laughs) I make the music in that state of mind.

Iwata

If Link strikes down an enemy, you think, "Oh, I'm so cool," and if he solves a difficult puzzle, you think, "I'm so smart!"

Yokota

So the music is from Link's point of view.

Kondo

Right.

Iwata

All right, this is my final question. The world is full of people who know about The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time as well as people who don't know anything about it. Yokota-san, what aspects of the Ocarina of Time 3D should appeal to each of those groups?

Yokota

I see it from the point of view of a total fan.

Iwata

Right. Because you love this game. (laughs)

Yokota

It's difficult for me to recommend certain aspects to those experiencing it for the first time, but I'd say it's moving in a way that only a video game can be.

Iwata

That's like our marketing tagline (in Japan) for the Nintendo 64 version.

Yokota

Yeah. I hope players will experience an even more moving experience on the Nintendo 3DS system because of the stereoscopic 3D.

Iwata

What would you say to fans like yourself?

Yokota

This game is a remake, but it's the kind of game to make you think, "This is exactly what I wanted from the Ocarina of Time!" In particular, the Master Quest13 this time is a mirror image of the main game, the placement of enemies and the puzzles in the dungeons are different, and you take double damage. That makes it quite a challenging game, even for people who played the Nintendo 64 version a lot and beat it on the Virtual Console. I hope people will play it through.13. Master Quest: The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time 3D includes the Master Quest, in which the dungeons and puzzles are different than in the main game. In the Master Quest this time, everything is a mirror image of the main game.

Iwata

How about you, Kondo-san?

Kondo

I worked on the Nintendo 64 version, so when I see the Nintendo 3DS version, I feel like it's smooth.

Iwata

Exactly what do you mean?

Kondo

The Nintendo 64 version feels coarse.

Iwata

You mean that the Nintendo 3DS version is more polished?

Kondo

Right. It's smooth and shiny. It's not just that it looks prettier, but looking in the shops, there are more products, it's more sumptuous, and there are more people. Just seeing that is nice.

Iwata

The essence of the game hasn't changed, but you've worked on it a number of ways.

Kondo

Right. I hope people who are familiar with the Nintendo 64 version will enjoy spotting what has changed and how. And I hope people who play it for the first time will have a true experience of The Legend of Zelda precisely because it's in 3D. I hope the Ocarina of Time 3D will help people who have bought a Nintendo 3DS system thoroughly experience what a real 3D game is like.

Yokota

As you were talking just now, I started wanting to see all the scenes in 3D, even though I've played Ocarina of Time tons of times! I've played it, thinking, "Oh, even this part is better!" and "And that part, too!" so I hope people who played the Nintendo 64 version will enjoy this game like that.

Iwata

Thank you. As I listened to the two of you talking, especially to Yokota-san's enthusiasm as a fan, I became a little envious of people who don't know The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time on the Nintendo 64 system. I mean, they'll be playing it for the first time without knowing anything about the world that awaits them! And in 3D!

Yokota

Yes, I'm envious of first-time players!

Iwata

If I could become a player without any Ocarina of Time plays before, I'd want to become someone like that. So I hope people won't think that this game isn't for them if they don't already know about The Legend of Zelda. Because back in the days of the Nintendo 64 system, Ocarina of Time showed people who had never played video games in 3D before how to play in 3D. They were simply impressed, like Yokota-san, with the autojump and Z-targeting. (laughs)

Yokota

Exactly.

Iwata

I do, of course, hope that people who know the game will enjoy pointing out what has changed or improved, but I especially want people who don't know the game to play it! I don't think they will feel like it's a game that was designed a decade ago.

The Everchanging Music of Hyrule Field
Iwata

It looks like we've got a little more time, so I'll ask one more thing. If you were to choose one song that you especially like in Ocarina of Time, what would it be? But Yokota-san, I suppose it's hard for you to choose just one! (laughs)

Yokota

If I were to choose just one, it would be  "Zelda's Lullaby". I performed this at Nintendo World 2011. I loved that song so much that I sat around practicing it at home. When I was preparing for my entrance exam to Nintendo, I thought you might check my piano skills.

Iwata

You practiced it for your entrance exam? (laughs)

Yokota

Yeah. I thought there might be a practical skills test, so I practiced a lot, but then there wasn't one! (laughs) I arranged it my own way on the piano. That's how great I think it is.

Iwata

I see. What about you, Kondo-san?

Kondo

If I were to choose just one, it might be an unusual one. (laughs)

Iwata

Oh? (laughs) What if I asked you to name three?

Kondo

As I was playing the Nintendo 3DS version, there were several that struck me as well-done. Although, it's a little embarrassing to say so myself! (laughs) One plays when you go to Zelda's castle and hide in the garden so the guards can't find you. I forgot the title, though.

Yokota

That's  "The Courtyard Game at Hyrule Castle."

Kondo

It sounds like a game of hide-and-seek. It represents that feeling of final relief you get when you're able to hide from the guards by carefully making stealthy steps. I thought, "I did a pretty good job!" (laughs)

Yokota

Like you're praising yourself 10 years ago? (laughs)

Kondo

Yeah! (laughs)

Iwata

It sounds like the value of the music for you, Kondo-san, is less about how the melody is appreciated by itself than how well the sounds serve their purpose in the context of the game.

Kondo

That's right.

Yokota

You can only use that song at that place. But you only go there once, so you can't hear it twice.

Iwata

It's a one-time-only minigame. When you clear it, you get to meet Princess Zelda.

Yokota

Right. So I want players to pay attention to that song when they play that part in The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time 3D.

Iwata

And your second song?

Kondo

The one for the Super Cucco Game mentioned earlier.

Yokota

Oh! (laughs) That is a good song! I clucked along as I played.

Kondo

That song represents the sound chickens make.

Iwata

Again, you match the music to the game content.

Kondo

Right. I think I found the right tempo for all those chickens running around.

Iwata

And your last one?

Kondo

Um…another one?

Yokota

I like the way he hasn't mentioned a single major theme! (laughs)

Kondo

The song during the ending credits! It looks like the images have been set to the music, but actually it was the other way around.

Iwata

Huh? You didn't come up with the music first?

Kondo

No.

Iwata

You matched the music to the pictures?

Kondo

We put in the music later. So when that girl shows up, we put in her vocals. I forgot her name, though. (laughs)

Yokota

Malon. She sings Epona's song.

Kondo

Right, right! Malon! Malon shows up, and you hear her sing. Gorons appear, and drums pound. I arranged each strain that way.

Iwata

Now that's surprising!

Yokota

Kondo-san, sorry. We may need to cut this part.

Kondo

Oh, really? Because it's the ending song?

Yokota

No, we're making the final adjustments and it just doesn't fit right.

Iwata

You've got to put that in, Yokota-san. It's one of Kondo-san's three favorite songs.

Yokota

Oh, right, I suppose so… It's just that on the Nintendo 3DS system, it loads during the ending, too, and there's a problem with it being off a little, but…well, I'll make it work somehow! I will!

Iwata

That way everyone can enjoy it right up to the very end.

Yokota

Yeah. Please, enjoy it!

Iwata

Thank you for your time today, guys.

Kondo and Yokota

Thank you!

Bonus: The Legend of Zelda 25th Anniversary Symphony Concert
This interview was originally included as a "bonus" chapter in the Mr. Shigeru Miyamoto interview transcription.

Iwata

May I also ask about the sound of The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword for the Wii console?

Yokota

(happily) Ooh, can we talk about that, too?!

Iwata

Today, we're talking about The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time 3D, but it's also the twenty-fifth anniversary of The Legend of Zelda.

Yokota

Oh, that's right!

Iwata

What are the main points with regard to the sound?

Yokota

One of the characteristics of the music of The Legend of Zelda series is the background music with folk instruments. So not only the regular orchestral instruments, but we also recorded some folk instruments live.

Iwata

Is there a particular key instrument, like the ocarina in The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time?

Yokota

Yes. It's still a secret, though. Keep your ears pricked!

Iwata

Kondo-san, how did you divide up the work for The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword when it came to the sound?

Kondo

The sound director is (Hajime) Wakai-san.26 The core staff is a few people in the Software Development Department at the head office. And Yokota-san and one other person from Tokyo are involved.26. Hajime Wakai: Software Development Department, Entertainment Analysis and Development Division, Nintendo. He has worked on the sound for many games, including Star Fox 64™, Pikmin™, The Legend of Zelda™: The Wind Waker™ and nintendogs™.

Yokota

I'm mostly in charge of the orchestral elements.

Iwata

You are increasingly becoming our man in charge of the orchestra!

Yokota

You bet! I'm happy to be doing more of it. But at first I was just helping out when it came to orchestral music. I was only lightly involved.

Iwata

Then the next thing you noticed, you were up to your neck in it?

Yokota

Yeah. (laughs) I was working along, and all of a sudden there were more orchestral songs than ever in Nintendo's history. I had so many songs that I wondered if we could actually write the scores for them all! I recorded the orchestra, too, and this time, as always, Kondo-san's songs didn't come until the last moment.

Kondo

Sorry. (laughs)

Yokota

He pulled an all-nighter.

Iwata

Right before recording?

Yokota

Yeah.

Kondo

Yeah. I stayed up writing music until morning.

Yokota

Once I got them, I transferred them to sheet music, and went to record. There, I asked Miyamoto-san if there was anything different between the orchestral music for Super Mario Bros. and that for The Legend of Zelda.

Iwata

That's an interesting question. How did he answer?

Yokota

He said that an orchestra was more suited to The Legend of Zelda.

Iwata

I see. I feel like there may be places in all The Legend of Zelda games where we could have used an orchestra.

Yokota

That is true.

Iwata

But I don't think all the Super Mario Bros. games could have used an orchestra.

Yokota

Especially the Super Mario Bros. games in 2D.

Iwata

The orchestra really fits the 3D games like Super Mario Galaxy, but if I were asked whether an orchestra was right for New Super Mario Bros. Wii, I'd probably have to say no.

Yokota

It wouldn't fit.

Iwata

I suppose that's what Miyamoto-san meant.

Yokota

I suppose so. Actually, when listening to past music for the Legend of Zelda series, there were several songs that I wanted to arrange for an orchestra. I chose some to my fancy and put them in The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword.

Iwata

Ah, I knew you would! (laughs)

Yokota

Yeah, I did. (laughs) And when I did, I was glad we had recorded live.

Kondo

That was amazing. When real musicians perform…

Iwata

I'd love to hear them live, too. And isn't there talk of doing that? As one of the events for the twenty-fifth anniversary of The Legend of Zelda?

Yokota

That's right!

Iwata

How is that shaping up?

Kondo

Aonuma-san was thinking about events for the twenty-fifth anniversary and suggested a concert for The Legend of Zelda.

Iwata

We did a lot last year for the twenty-fifth anniversary of Super Mario Bros., and we want to do something new for the twenty-fifth anniversary of The Legend of Zelda.

Kondo

That's right. Because the orchestra really fits The Legend of Zelda, we decided to hold The Legend of Zelda twenty-fifth anniversary orchestral concerts.

Yokota

In fact, I've actually been saying I want to hold a Legend of Zelda concert ever since I joined the company. I kept getting turned down, but it finally becomes a reality on the occasion of the twenty-fifth anniversary. Kondo-san, you've also been saying for some time that you want to do an orchestral concert, haven't you?

Kondo

Yeah.

Iwata

Why couldn't you until now?

Yokota

They said it wasn't our "main business"! (laughs)

Iwata

Oh, like, "That's not what we do. Go make fun games!"

Yokota

Yeah! (laughs)

Iwata

That's the way it goes. (laughs)

Yokota

But if Nintendo was going to hold a concert, I wanted to do something unique. So for one year, I plan to be steeped in The Legend of Zelda again.

Iwata

Just when you thought you were free from The Legend of Zelda, further days steeped in it await.

Yokota

I want to be involved in it, though.

Iwata

You can't stand to see someone else do it. (laughs)

Yokota

I'm not sure whether I could stand others to do it or not, but I wouldn't be able to keep my mouth shut! (laughs)

Iwata

I doubt speaking up would be enough for you. You would have to get your hands on it! (laughs)

Yokota

(laughs) Yeah, I've got particular songs in my head that I want to have an orchestra play.

Iwata

You're already thinking about it? (laughs)

Yokota

Uh, yeah. (laughs) I hope you'll come listen to the concert on October 10. (Editor's note: This is for the Japanese date of the concert. Dates for other regions are TBD at the time of this interview.)

Iwata

If at all possible, I will. Nothing compares with hearing live music!

Original Development Staff - Part 1
This interview features Toshio Iwasaki, Eiji Aonuma, Takumi Kawagoe, Yoshiaki Koizumi, and Toru Osawa.

The Game that Changed Destinies
Iwata

Thank you for joining me today.

Everyone

We're glad to be here.

Iwata

Today, I have gathered the core development staff for the Nintendo 64 game  The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time, which was first released in November of 1998. Please introduce yourselves, telling us what you did back then.

Osawa

Okay. I'm Osawa from the Special-Planning & Development Department. When development of The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time began, they called me in to the Entertainment Analysis & Development Division (EAD) and put me to work. This project had a lot of directors, but I was the oldest, so I was a sort of general director.

Iwata

About how many directors were there?

Osawa

Five altogether. I listened to each director's opinion and coordinated them, saying, "All right, all right, I get it. This is what we'll do." I also worked on the story and script.

Koizumi

I'm Koizumi from the Tokyo Software Development Department. Recently, I've been making the Super Mario Galaxy series1 and Flipnote Studio2 in Tokyo, but when I try to remember when I was in Kyoto and making 3D action games one after the other—from Super Mario 643 to The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time—I was working on so many different things that I can't really remember what I did.

Iwata

You were involved in so many things that you can't sum them up.

Koizumi

Right. I was involved with environment construction for 3D games, camera design, making the player-character Link, making items, and a little with event-related matters.1. Super Mario Galaxy™ series: A series of 3D action games released for the Wii™ console. Super Mario Galaxy was released in November 2007, and Super Mario Galaxy 2 was released in May 2010.

2. Flipnote Studio: Free Nintendo DSiWare™ software released for download beginning December 2008. It allows users to create hand-drawn images with the stylus. Users can play multiple pages successively, resulting in flipbook animation.

3. Super Mario™ 64: The first 3D action game in the Super Mario Bros.™ series. Released simultaneously with the Nintendo 64™ system in June 1996.

Kawagoe

I'm Kawagoe from the Software Development & Design Department. I was originally in charge of camera programming for Super Mario 64, so they brought me in to The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time project so I could make use of that know-how.

Iwata

At the time, you were in charge of camera programming?

Kawagoe

Yes. But SRD4, which Iwawaki-san belongs to, was in charge of camera programming for The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time, so I participated as an advisor. However, Osawa-san's script was starting to become huge, so lots of cut scenes were necessary.

Iwata

At first, you were an advisor, but suddenly you were in deep.

Kawagoe

Yes. I became involved in development of a tool for making the cut scenes, and before I knew it, I was working on storyboards and in charge of the movie parts.4. SRD Co., Ltd.: A company established in 1979 that contracts to develop video game software programs and develops and sells CAD packages. The head office is in Osaka, and their Kyoto office is inside Nintendo headquarters.

Iwata

Currently, you mainly lend your support whenever the need for a cut scene arises somewhere in-house and a request goes to you at the movie production group. Could we say that The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time was the game that occasioned your involvement in such work?

Kawagoe

Yes. The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time was the first time I clearly operated as a member of movie production.

Iwata

So Osawa-san's huge script changed your destiny.

Kawagoe

That's exactly right! (laughs)

Osawa

Oh, really?

Kawagoe

Yeah! (laughs)

Iwata

Looking back, The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time was a project that determined the future work of a lot of people.

Osawa

That's right. Several people were like that.

Aonuma

Yep, yep. (laughs)

Iwata

Aonuma-san, you're a prime example of someone whose fate the game determined. (laughs)

Aonuma

Uh-huh. That's very true! (laughs)

Iwata

Would you please introduce yourself?

Aonuma

I'm Aonuma from EAD. I am producer of The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time 3D and The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword5, which is still under development for the Wii console, but the first game in the series that I worked on was The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time for the Nintendo 64 system.5. The Legend of Zelda™: Skyward Sword: The newest title in the series. Scheduled for release in 2011 for the Wii console.

Iwata

Today, your name is always mentioned in the same breath as The Legend of Zelda, but before then, you did a variety of work.

Aonuma

Yes.

Iwata

About the time you had just joined the company, we worked together.

Aonuma

That's right! (laughs) Unfortunately, though, the game we made together never made it out into the world. I spent a lot of time developing games with external companies. But I really wanted to develop inside Nintendo. I pestered Miyamoto-san about it and he said, "We don't have enough people for The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time, so come on in for a spell." Of those of us here today, I joined the project last.

Iwata

You didn't participate early on in development?

Aonuma

No. When I joined, the script was somewhat established, and they were rapidly turning out the content. I designed a total of six early and mid-stage dungeons, most of the enemy characters, and enemy and boss battles.

Kawagoe

You also drew storyboards.

Aonuma

Oh, that's right. Back then, anyone who could draw storyboards was drawing them.

Osawa

Me, too! (laughs)

Iwata

The boundaries between different jobs were vague back then. Most of the time, if you noticed something that needed to be done, you did it yourself.

Aonuma

That's right. I doubt many on the staff who were involved with The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time—not just those of us here today—could say clearly where their work began and where it ended.

Kawagoe

For today's "Iwata Asks," I pulled out some old materials and was like, "I even drew up specs like this!" (laughs)

Iwata

You were surprised at yourself. (laughs)

Kawagoe

Yeah! (laughs) I was surprised at the breadth of tasks I was involved in.

Iwata

Iwawaki-san, if you would, please?

Iwawaki

I'm Iwawaki in charge of main programming at SRD. Like Aonuma-san, The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time was my first game in the series.

Iwata

What were you working on until then?

Iwawaki

I had been working on the Super Mario Bros. series for quite a while. I had worked for some time with Koizumi-san on Super Mario 64, so that's how I came to work on The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time.

Aonuma

For a long time, all we did was cause you trouble with the most impossible demands.

Iwawaki

No, not at all! (laughs)

Aonuma

You played an important role in realizing all the ideas we came up with. That must have been hard.

Iwawaki

No…

Iwata

You made irrational demands?

Iwawaki

Well, you might say that. (laughs)

Iwata

So not just the boss specs, but most of the demands that Aonuma-san came up with were irrational.

Aonuma

They were! (laughs)

Koizumi

No, I had been working with Iwawaki-san all the way from Super Mario 64 to The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time, so when it comes to irrational demands, I don't lose to Aonuma-san! (laughs)

Everyone

(laughs)

The Legend of Zelda with Chanbara-style Action
Iwata

We just talked about how Koizumi-san made lots of irrational demands all the way from Super Mario 64 to The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time, but to go back to the beginning, Super Mario Bros. came out in September of 1985 and The Legend of Zelda came out immediately afterward in February 1986. I feel like Super Mario Bros. and The Legend of Zelda are often made as a pair.

The challenge with the Nintendo 64 system was to turn those two titles into 3D. Koizumi-san, I think you were the person closest to Miyamoto-san during development then. What was on your mind?

Koizumi

I do think they are often made in pairs. They both fell into the category of "3D open-world action games." I didn't really see the difference between them.

Iwata

If you were to state the difference, it would be how The Legend of Zelda is the one you don't press a button to jump in.

Koizumi

Even when it comes to that, you had to press a button to jump when we first started making The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time.

Iwata

At first, it didn't have autojump.

Koizumi

That's right. There was no way we could take jumping out of a Super Mario. Bros. game, but when we actually tried making Super Mario 64, the action hurdle was a high one. For example, if you tried to beat an enemy in front of you, the axes weren't aligned, so it was hard.

Iwata

Yes, that's right. When I was at HAL Laboratory thinking about how we could make the Kirby series for the Nintendo 64 system, we wrestled with that.

Koizumi

Oh, uh-huh. (laughs) As we were making Super Mario 64, we were thinking about The Legend of Zelda the whole time, and started talking about decreasing the action element in The Legend of Zelda and increasing the puzzle elements.

Iwata

You were thinking about them both at the same time.

Koizumi

Yes. Even as I was making Super Mario 64, I would write down memos of what I wanted to achieve with The Legend of Zelda. Then when I started making The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time, I whipped out those memos and consulted them.

Iwata

What kinds of things had you written down?

Koizumi

All kinds of things, like battles using a sword and battling lots of enemies. The Super Mario 64 project had passed by incredibly quickly, so a lot that I wanted had gone undone and I wanted to pour all those leftover ideas into The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time.

Iwata

In the end, The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time eventually became a massive project that mobilized nearly everyone who belonged to EAD at that time, but how many people did you start with?

Koizumi

Three.

Osawa

Before Koizumi-san joined, (Jin) Ikeda-san6 and I started it just the two of us!6. Jin Ikeda: Software Development & Design Department, Software Planning & Development Division, Nintendo. He worked on character design for The Legend of Zelda™: Ocarina of Time™.

Koizumi

Oh, is that so?

Osawa

Koizumi-san, you were still working on Super Mario 64 then, weren't you?

Iwata

Oh, so you joined after finishing Super Mario 64.

Koizumi

Yes, that's right.

Iwata

Osawa-san, how did you become involved in development of The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time?

Osawa

I was asked if I would be the director and I immediately replied yes. I had no idea it would turn into such a colossal task! (laughs)

Iwata

I suppose you just replied casually. (laughs)

Osawa

But it's definitely worth it, right?

Iwata

Yes, for sure.

Osawa

Since I was working at Nintendo, The Legend of Zelda was a title I wanted to work on at least once. Luckily, that opportunity had come along, so I put my hand right up. But before we became involved, (Takao) Shimizu-san7 made a chanbara (sword fighting) demo video.

Aonuma

Oh, that's right. If I remember correctly, the demo video we showed at the E38 in 1996.

Osawa

Right. But Shimizu-san became involved with other work, so he said, "The rest is up to you!"

Iwata

Was that other work Star Fox 64?9

Osawa

Yeah. So I took it over, and Shimizu-san told me some things he wanted me to do. He wanted me to make a Zelda game with chanbara-style action.7. Takao Shimizu: Tokyo Software Development Department, Entertainment Analysis & Development Division, Nintendo. He directed Star Fox™ 64 and later worked on numerous titles, including Super Mario Sunshine™ and Super Mario Galaxy.

8. E3 (Electronic Entertainment Expo): A video game trade show usually held once a year in Los Angeles.

9. Star Fox 64: A 3D shooting game released for the Nintendo 64 system in April 1997.

Iwata

When people talk about The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time, they mention various things like an epic story, solving puzzles, trotting across a broad field on a horse and how cool Link is, but it began with the single theme of making a Zelda game that included chanbara-style swashbuckling!

Osawa

Uh-huh. I started writing the script with chanbara at the front of my mind. Then Koizumi-san joined us, and there were three of us.

Koizumi

It was true of Shimizu-san as well, but I really liked  Zelda II: The Adventure of Link.10

Osawa

So much that you wanted to make it yourself?

Koizumi

Yeah. You might say that, but before Super Mario 64, I had actually been making Zelda II: The Adventure of Link in polygons with Miyamoto-san.10: Zelda II: The Adventure of Link™: An action-adventure game released for the Family Computer Disk System in January 1987.

Iwata

Before Super Mario 64… You mean for the Super Famicom System?

Koizumi

Yes. We were experimenting with a thin, polygon Link seen from the side and fighting with his sword. Chanbara was a pending issue at the time. We couldn't really bring Zelda II: The Adventure of Link into form at that time, but I kept that desire to achieve a sword-fighting Zelda game until I joined this team.

Iwata

So The Legend of Zelda game with chanbara action had been a theme for quite some time.

Koizumi

Yes.

Iwata

As you joined the staff as the third member, what did you work on first?

Koizumi

First, I talked with Miyamoto-san about how we should make The Legend of Zelda for the Nintendo 64 system, and he asked, "How about making it so that Link will not show up?"

Iwata

Huh?! Miyamoto-san said that?!

Koizumi

Yeah. He wanted to make it a first-person game.

Iwata

Oh, he wanted to make an FPS (first-person shooter).

Koizumi

Right. In the beginning, he had the image that you are at first walking around in first-person, and when an enemy appeared, the screen would switch, Link would appear, and the battle would unfold from a side perspective.

Iwata

It was said that making one character and making all the backgrounds carried an equal burden with the Nintendo 64 system.

Koizumi

Yes. And from my experience making Super Mario 64, I knew that displaying a character constantly running around on a broad field would be incredibly difficult. But—while it wasn't very nice of me toward Miyamoto-san—I didn't try a first-person scene even once!

"Let's Go to Toei Kyoto Studio Park!"
Iwata

Why didn't you experiment with a first-person game?

Koizumi

I was making the model for Link, so I couldn't stand to see my Link not appear.

Iwata

Oh, I see. In first-person, you wouldn't be able to see him.

Koizumi

Right. Link is cool, so I wanted to always be able to see him.

Iwawaki

But…I do think we tried out a first-person perspective a little.

Osawa

I think we made something to try it out, but decided it wasn't interesting visually and abandoned it right away.

Koizumi

Oh, is that right? (laughs) So we had Link appear from a third-person perspective, but it was really hard to get the art to connect right. I remember making the most impossible requests to Iwawaki-san.

Iwawaki

No, no… (laughs)

Iwata

You went straight to making irrational demands. (laughs)

Koizumi

Yeah. (laughs) Thanks to him, we were able to show Link the whole time, but it got really hard in ways that would have been extremely easy in first-person, like how to handle the camera and battles.

Iwata

You tied your own noose.

Koizumi

Yeah. In order to solve those problems, we had to create a bunch of new devices, one of which was Z-targetting.1111. Z-targeting: When the player presses the Z Button, not only does the viewpoint shift to a view from directly behind Link™, but Link can also talk with characters at a distance and gain an advantage in battle by locking on to enemies. In The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time 3D, players press the L Button.

Iwata

How did Z-targeting come about?

Osawa

In Super Mario 64, for example, when you tried to read a sign, sometimes you would just go around it in circles.

Iwata

The axes wouldn't match up.

Osawa

Right. We wondered what we could do about that, and when Koizumi-san joined the team, I said, "Since we're going to include chanbara-style action, let's go to Toei Kyoto Studio Park!"12

Iwata

Huh? Going to Toei Kyoto Studio Park…because you were including chanbara-style action?

Osawa

Yes.12. Toei Kyoto Studio Park: Part of Toei's film studios in Kyoto open to the public as a theme park where visitors can see period drama sets and shows.

Iwata

I don't get it. (laughs)

Osawa

We thought if we went there, we might get some ideas. We got our boss's approval, and Koizumi-san, Ikeda-san and I went. It sure was a hot summer!

Koizumi

Yes. Very hot.

Osawa

As we went along looking at everything, it was so hot that we ducked into a playhouse to cool off. They were doing a ninja show. A number of ninja were surrounding the main samurai and one lashed out with a kusarigama (sickle-and-chain). The lead samurai caught it with his left arm, the chain stretched tight, and the ninja moved in a circle around him.

Iwata

And…that led to Z-targeting?

Osawa

Yeah…I think so, if my memory serves me correctly.

Iwata

So it wasn't like the chain led to the idea for the Hookshot?

Osawa

No.

Aonuma

Huh? Everyone looks confused! (laughs)

Everyone

(laughs)

Koizumi

I don't think that's quite right. (laughs) The way I remember it…

Iwata

Yes? (laughs)

Koizumi

With regard to Z-targeting, I believe we started talking about how we wanted a good way of hitting opponents in front of you when we were making Super Mario 64.

Iwata

But you couldn't do it.

Koizumi

Right. Then, when we were making The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time, I thought up something when we were making the camera system for fighting enemies. What caught my attention in the studio park was the sword fight. They regularly put on shows in which the hero defeats ruffians. Watching that, I thought, "Hmm, that's weird." That was because there was no way one person could fight and win when surrounded by 20 opponents.

Iwata

Because he's vastly outnumbered.

Koizumi

I thought there must be some kind of trick, so I watched very closely, and it was simple. It's a sword battle, so there's a script and a certain setup. The enemies don't all attack at once. First, one attacks while the others wait. When the first guy goes down, the next one steps in, and so on.

Iwata

It's blocked out so they attack one-by-one, in order.

Koizumi

Right. One thing I had been trying to figure out with regard to Z-targeting was how to fight multiple enemies. If I just made it like normal, the enemies would swarm the player all at once, so it would be a mess.

Iwata

Yeah.

Koizumi

Watching that show at the studio park was a clue toward solving that problem. Z-targeting flags one particular opponent, telling the other enemies to wait.

Iwata

Your opponents go on standby as in a staged sword fight.

Koizumi

First, you have the other enemies wait while you fight with the first one, and the moment you beat that one, you can switch the Z-targeting to the next opponent.

Iwata

So when it's one against many, you fight one-on-one over and over again.

Koizumi

Right. Like that. We actually made something. Do you remember that, Iwawaki-san?

Iwawaki

Yeah. A battle against two skeletons…two Stalfos.

Koizumi

Yeah. There's a place in the Forest Temple where you  fight against two Stalfos. We were only able to pull off that scene because of that show we saw at the studio park.

Iwata

So if you hadn't gone to the studio park?

Koizumi

If we hadn't gone, we wouldn't have hit on the system for fighting multiple opponents. But I think Osawa-san and I were each seeing it a little differently.

Iwata

Osawa-san focused on the kusarigama.

Osawa

Yeah, that's right. Watching the kusarigama show, I hit on the idea of making a kusarigama that you can't see when you use Z-targeting.

Iwata

A kusarigama you can't see?

Osawa

When you use Z-targeting, I would make it so something like a kusarigama you can't see exists between Link and the opponent. If you push the analog stick forward, you can close in slowly, and if you move it to the side, you can move to the side in a circular motion, getting around behind your opponent, seeking for an opening.

Iwata

Then do a jump attack.

Osawa

Exactly! (laughs)

Iwata

I see. Different people notice different things even when they see the same thing.

Koizumi

Yeah.

Iwata

I'm glad the studio park is here in Kyoto.

Koizumi

Yeah. It was incredibly helpful.

Osawa

We just went into that playhouse by chance.

Koizumi

Because it was hot. (laughs)

Osawa

To cool down because it was so hot! (laughs)

Where the Name Navi Came From
Iwata

The first problem that all kinds of people involved in making games in 3D encountered and had lots of trouble with is the axes not aligning when two characters go to face each other. But the two of you found a solution when you went to Toei Kyoto Studio Park.

Koizumi

Yeah. I remember something else with regard to Z-targeting. When we were making a prototype of battle targeting, we wanted to make it easy to see which enemy you're targeting, so we made a marker.

Iwata

Uh-huh.

Koizumi

An upside-down triangle.

Iwata

Like the one appeared above the targeted opponent's head.

Koizumi

Yeah. But I was a designer, so I didn't want to use such a simple marker. I wanted to make something else, so I came up with a fairy. After all, it was The Legend of Zelda.

Iwata

So first you went to make a marker, and later you made the fairy?

Koizumi

Right. Usually, if you were to make a fairy, you would make a cute girl, but that wasn't possible with the Nintendo 64 system, so I just made a ball of light with wings.

Iwata

Uh-huh.

Koizumi

I called it the Fairy Navigation System, took it to Osawa-san, and asked, "How's this?" He immediately said, "Let's name it  Navi." Because she navigates! (laughs)

Iwata

Osawa-san called on his simple naming sense. (laughs)

Osawa

Navi—from "navigation." (laughs) The Legend of Zelda games have a lot of names that show their origin. Link means to bind together. We give a lot of names that serve as functional symbols.

Iwata

Functional symbols are important to Miyamoto-san.

Osawa

I think so. I didn't just name her Navi out of my simple sense for naming. Rather, I thought I should name her that way out of respect for The Legend of Zelda naming tradition.

Koizumi

But when I heard the name Navi from Osawa-san, I was really happy. I had thought of it as a system, but…

Iwata

Naming it had breathed life into what had been an impersonal marker.

Koizumi

Right. I thought, "This is Navi," and ideas started coming to me one after the other. Like being able to tell by color whether the person you're facing is good or bad, and if Navi talked, she could be an important guide for the story. So naming the system Navi really helped it grow.

Osawa

Navi also gives strategy tips.

Koizumi

So the text that Osawa-san had to write increased a lot.

Osawa

(laughs) Yeah. (laughs) The addition of Navi had merits with regard to the script as well. We were able to expand the story around the idea of meeting and saying good-bye to a fairy.

Iwata

Ahh, I see!

Koizumi

And not only the script, but the game mechanics benefited as well. The first location is Kokiri Forest. The village has lots of trees and lots of people live there, but it was difficult to display them all at once.

Iwata

The Nintendo 64 system had limitations making it difficult to display many characters at the same time.

Koizumi

I came up with the idea of having each person living there followed around by a fairy. That way, even if we just showed the fairies…

Iwata

I see. If you see the fairy, you know its owner is there, too.

Koizumi

Right. We solved the problem by having it so that  the owner appears when you get close to the fairy.

Aonuma

It also led to the scenario surrounding Link not having a fairy at first.

Osawa

Which led to the whole idea of meeting and parting from a fairy—in which you start by finding a fairy and in the end you say good-bye.

Iwata

Hmm, I see.

Koizumi

We didn't determine most of the settings at first, but just made them up as we went.

Iwata

Yeah. (laughs)

Koizumi

But I think that is an important part of our work.

Iwata

With regard to that, it is often said that when it comes to making Zelda game, the game mechanics come first and the script later. Osawa-san, thinking up the script was your job, right?

Osawa

Yes.

Iwata

For example, was the division into  Young Link and Adult Link something you were thinking about from the start?

Osawa

No, at first there was always Adult Link.

Iwata

Only Adult Link showed up?

Osawa

Yes. At first, we were just going to have him in an adult form. If you think about the chanbara element, that only made sense. With a child form, the sword would be small and his reach too short, so he would be at a terrible disadvantage, especially against large enemies.

Iwata

And it wasn't like you could just make the enemies small.

Osawa

Right. But partway through development, Miyamoto-san and others on the staff started saying they wanted to see a cute little Link.

Iwata

That would change the script a lot.

Osawa

Yes. we thought about how we could have both the child and adult forms appear in the same game and came up with the device of going seven years into the future by drawing the Master Sword and then returning back to his child form when he returns it to the pedestal.

Iwata

He travels back and forth in an instant.

Osawa

Yes. That was a scenario we added later.

Iwata

It's amazing that such a big change didn't cause the whole project to collapse.

Everyone

(laughs)

Iwata

Huh? You're all laughing. Does that mean it did sort of collapse? (laughs)

Aonuma

It didn't exactly collapse, but we did have some heated exchanges!

Osawa

We got into it every day. I would write the script and everyone would point out problems, saying, "This is weird," and "That's impossible." Then I'd come up with a revised script and say, "I changed this. What do you think?" I remember going around showing it to each and everyone to get their okay.

Koizumi

Huh? I don't think you went quite that far, but…did you?

Aonuma

You didn't go quite that far.

Osawa

Huh? I thought I did, but…

Aonuma

You just feel like you did! (laughs)

Iwata

Perhaps your memory has been overwritten! (laughs)

Everyone

(laughs)

Osawa

Hmm…

Koizumi

Everyone back then was busy with what was right in front of them. When it came about that the Young Link was going to appear, what caused the most trouble for me was the modeling and animation for Link.

Iwata

The amount you had to make doubled.

Koizumi

Right. My work doubled. I was the one making him, so I was like, "What'm I gonna do?"

Iwata

When did talk of making Young Link come up?

Koizumi

I think it was about the second year after development started. Do you remember, Iwawaki-san?

Iwawaki

Yeah, I think it was about one and a half years before release.

Iwata

Oh, so that's when it was.

What We Couldn't Do with The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time
Iwata

Partway through development, one and a half years before release, you had to do modeling and motions not just for Adult Link but for Young Link, too. Koizumi-san, how did you solve that?

Koizuma

We solved it with a simple trick. We realized that by applying a scale of a certain value to Adult Link's model, we could double-up use of all the same things.

Iwata

You realized that you could use the motions of Adult Link for Young Link, too.

Koizuma

Yes. We could solve it technologically, so I said, "We can make Young Link," and gave it my approval.

Iwata

But moving from Adult Link to Young Link, you couldn't just use everything without any changes, right?

Koizuma

No. I had to rework Young Link somewhat, so I had to make 1.5 times the animation.

Iwata

In the end, how many basic motions did you make for Link?

Koizuma

About 500 patterns. Add to that the programming combinations, and there were even more. One reason we were able to put so many patterns in was the Nintendo 64 system's ROM cartridges.

Iwata

You were originally developing The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time for the Nintendo 64DD.13

Koizuma

Yes. Miyamoto-san said he had some ideas, like leaving behind all of Link's footprints.

Iwata

Yeah. (laughs)13. Nintendo 64DD: A peripheral for the Nintendo 64 system that was released by RANDnetDD. Service began in 1999 and ended in 2001.

Koizuma

At first, we were making it for the Nintendo 64DD. But reading data from the magnetic disks was…

Iwata

ROM cartridges don't have moving mechanical parts, so you can retrieve motion data in an instant wherever it is, but with a magnetic disk, it takes time to move certain mechanical parts, so depending on where the data is, it takes time to retrieve it, so you couldn't make Link move. If there weren't many movements and you could fit them in the memory, you could read them to memory from the magnetic disk beforehand, but there were 500 patterns.

Osawa

Right. Koizumi-san said, "I can't move my Link on the Nintendo 64DD."

Koizuma

Yeah. But in the end we decided to release it on a ROM cartridge rather than for the Nintendo 64DD. I think some people were disappointed, but some were happy—none more than myself! (laughs)

Iwata

Because you would be able to move "your Link" however you wanted. (laughs)

Koizuma

Yeah. (laughs)

Iwata

So Young Link was going to show up. Riding Epona is also a distinct characteristic of The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time. How did the idea for a horse come up?

Osawa

It just arose all of a sudden.

Koizuma

No, I don't think it was sudden. Actually, we'd been talking about a horse even during the development for Super Mario 64.

Osawa

Oh, I didn't know that.

Koizuma

But it didn't happen for Super Mario 64. I was certain we would do it for The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time, so I got ready. By the way, Epona was a girl.

Aonuma

Why is she named Epona? Weren't we calling her Ao at first?

Iwata

Ao from Aonuma?

Aonuma

No, no. (laughs) Ao is the natural name for a horse.

Iwata

Huh? (laughs)

Koizuma

I was the one who named her Epona.

Osawa

Right! (laughs) Koizumi-san named her first. He said, "We're going to call this horse Epona." I didn't even have time to think of a name! (laughs)

Koizuma

Epona is the goddess of horses and fertility in Celtic mythology, so I used that. When you name something, it increases your affection for it, so I worked hard to make her a good horse.

Osawa

I had Miyamoto-san explain Epona, but at first he only talked about the camera work. He said that when the horse jumped, he wanted to see it from below. And that was all he said! (laughs)

Aonuma

Yeah, that's right.

Osawa

He said we should have it jump over a valley and show it from the bottom of that valley, against the light, so the light would break through.

Aonuma

It's unusual for Miyamoto-san to make requests regarding such aspects of presentation.

Osawa

Yes. That was the only time he's ever said, "I want to see visuals like this, so make it happen."

Aonuma

Maybe he's interested in horses.

Koizuma

That's probably from Western movies. Miyamoto-san really likes country music.

Osawa

He reflects his personal interests in his work.

Kawagoe

Do you mean the scene in which Epona jumps across a broken bridge? There's also that scene when it escapes the ranch.

Aonuma

Yeah.

Kawagoe

There isn't just one exit from the ranch.

Aonuma

So we had to make a cut scene for each exit.

Kawagoe

That's right… (laughs)

Osawa

But when she jumped over a barrier, she jumped on her own.

Iwata

The horse had autojump, too.

Iwawaki

Right.

Osawa

The reason the horse jumps automatically is Miyamoto-san said that a Zelda game doesn't need any difficult actions.

Koizuma

Nonetheless, the Carrot System went in.

Osawa

Right. Miyamoto-san did that. (laughs)

Koizuma

Miyamoto-san said that just riding around on a horse wouldn't be very fun game-wise. He wanted to put in some sort of action, so he added carrots. When you crack the whip, a carrot icon disappears, and Epona goes faster, but if you use up all the carrots, you lose the ability to crack the whip for a while and can't jump over barriers.

Iwata

Game operation was a little difficult there.

Koizuma

Yes. But isn't there a contradiction between cracking the whip at just the right timing and not requiring any difficult game operation? (laughs)

Iwata

Yeah. (laughs)

Koizuma

But Miyamoto-san was the one who put that in. (laughs)

Osawa

Once you achieve the goal of being able to ride a horse, you might want to try out something further.

Koizuma

That's why he started saying that if Link was going to ride a horse, he wanted to include mounted archery and one-on-one battle. (laughs) We were able to include the mounted archery, but not the one-on-one battle.

Iwata

But later you included it in  The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess.14

Aonuma

Yeah.

Iwata

Miyamoto-san is the kind of guy to stick with an idea once he's thought of it. (laughs)

Aonuma

That's right. Apart from the horse, ever since The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time, Miyamoto-san has said that he wants Link to raise his sword over his head.

Osawa

He said that to me, too. We couldn't do it on the Nintendo 64 system.

Iwata

But you can raise the sword in The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword, right?

Aonuma

Yes. It uses the Wii MotionPlus15 technology, so we've finally done it.

Iwata

After 13 years, you've fulfilled another wish.

Aonuma

So to Miyamoto-san, all the games in The Legend of Zelda series are connected.14. The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess: An action-adventure game released for the Wii console and the Nintendo GameCube™ system in December 2006.

15. Wii MotionPlus™: A peripheral device that attaches to the Wii Remote™ controller and senses precise gameplay movements.

Finding the Right Location for the Opening Sequence
Iwata

In addition to the sword, a variety of items—such as a bow and arrow and the Hookshot—appear in The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time. How did you make those?

Koizumi

With regard to the items, we made each one because we thought, "It would be nice to have something like this." I'd say, "The Hookshot is done, so feel free to use it," and everyone would be like, "Well, where shall we put it?"

Aonuma

Yeah. (laughs) Even if we had an item, we wouldn't know where to put it. We decided the number of items at the start. But that ended up causing us trouble.

Iwata

You had to satisfy the number of items you had set at the beginning.

Aonuma

Yeah. And after I'd designed the early dungeons, a new item would be done and someone would tell me, "Make sure there isn't any trouble when Link enters into the dungeon with this item." I'd be like, "Come on! Tell me that sooner!" (laughs)

Koizumi

Sorry about that. I was making the items, so…

Aonuma

No, don't worry about it. (laughs)

Koizumi

If you just make whatever you want as you go, you're sure to run into trouble sometime.

Aonuma

But on the other hand, if you decide the items you're going to put in from the start, it doesn't mean everything will go well. I don't think such a variety of distinctive items would have come about that way. We were making something unprecedented, so we couldn't see what would be right to make or where the goal should be.

Iwata

It was unprecedented, so no one could say exactly what plan to follow.

Aonuma

Right. Earlier, when we talked about the script, we talked about whether the whole process would crumble, but as we were making it, we didn't really know whether it was falling apart or not. (laughs)

Iwata

(laughs)

Aonuma

It was a mess right up to the end.

Koizumi

We didn't know what kind of game it was until all the parts came together.

Iwata

You made The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time without knowing what kind of game it was until the various parts came together. How did that feel for you Kawagoe-san as you made the cut scenes? (laughs)

Kawagoe

What should I say about that? (laughs) Even after the game was basically done, a lot had to be switched in. For example, "You know that item in that one dungeon? Well, we need to use that in another dungeon."

Osawa

You're like, "Hey! You should have told me sooner!" (laughs)

Kawagoe

And that stuff tends to concentrate around the end of development. The script changed in one way after the next…or rather, it changed drastically.

Iwata

(laughs)

Kawagoe

How far we could adapt to those drastic changes was a way for us to show our skill.

Iwata

Sometimes Miyamoto-san makes drastic changes, too.

Kawagoe

I was always worried about what might come up. But I thought something like that might happen, so I prepared a tool to make such changes easier. We were making real-time in-game movies, so even if the clothes or items changed, I could switch them into the scene.

Iwata

Back then, pre-rendered movies—which were prepared ahead of time—were common, but the movies in The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time were rendered in real time, so the clothes or mask you were wearing at the time would show up.

Kawagoe

Right. There weren't many problems in that regard.

Osawa

Miyamoto-san doesn't really like cinematic elements anyway.

Koizumi

This may be overstating it, but Miyamoto-san probably doesn't need any cut scenes at all.

Aonuma

Hmm, maybe not.

Koizumi

He says they can do without them, but if we're going to have them, he wants a way to redo them over and over.

Iwata

The last excuse he wants to listen to is, "I can't fix it" because the cut scenes have already been made."

Koizumi

He says it's all right to make movies, but we have to be able to change them up through the day before completion.

Iwata

Ooh, that's rough. (laughs)

Everyone

(laughs)

Koizumi

That way of thinking had been drilled into me ever since Super Mario 64, so pre-rendered movies were never an option. Kawagoe-san had diligently made a way to create real-time demos, which paid off in The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time.

Iwata

Among the real-time demos, the  opening scene is particularly striking. How did you make that?

Kawagoe

Today, you can use a CG tool to move the camera, but back then we couldn't do that because of how the game was constructed, so we asked to make the system to enable Nintendo 64 console to move the camera and we used that.

Iwata

First there was the music by (Koji) Kondo-san16, and you made the images to match that?16. Koji Kondo: Software Development Department, Entertainment Analysis & Development Division, Nintendo. He has composed the music for The Legend of Zelda and Super Mario Bros. series.

Kawagoe

No, the music came later. The landforms of Hyrule Field weren't originally made for cut scenes, so even if you think, "I want to film a scene like this…"

Iwata

The right place for it might not exist in the game.

Kawagoe

Right. So I moved the camera around, like I was walking across the landforms on my own two feet, thinking, "Is this a good spot?" and "How about over here?" I went around looking for a place that would look good, just like searching for a location to shoot a movie.

Iwata

You looked for a location virtually.

Kawagoe

Right. At the beginning of the sequence, there's a scene in which Link is riding around on his horse. I thought that spot was good and waited for a while, and then the moon slid down into view.

Iwata

By chance?

Kawagoe

Yeah. "That's it!" I thought, and decided on that spot.

Iwata

It was too good to be true! (laughs)

Kawagoe

I think a lot of chance happenings contributed to The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time, but I suspect that Miyamoto-san still thinks that real-time cut scenes are easy to change.

Aonuma

Yeah. He definitely thinks so. (laughs)

Osawa

But it really isn't that easy! (laughs)

Kawagoe

So I'm always worried what will come up. Even now! (laughs)

Everyone

(laughs)

"Now That's The Legend of Zelda!"
Iwata

My own impression is that The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time firmly established the "essence of Zelda."

Aonuma

That's right. That's why it's been hard to make anything ever since! (laughs)

Iwata

Yeah. (laughs)

Aonuma

Something I always think as I work on the series is how hard it was to make The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time, but it was also a great time. As mentioned earlier, we were making something unprecedented.

Iwata

There wasn't anything you could compare it to.

Aonuma

We didn't know where the finish line was! (laughs)

Iwata

Without knowing a due date, time dragged on… (laughs)

Aonuma

Yeah. Sorry about that. (laughs)

Iwata

I was at a different company at the time, so no need to apologize to me! (laughs)

Everyone

(laughs)

Aonuma

As we went through a process of trial and error and watched it take shape each day, it was really fun working on it. Each day we said, "Oh, look at what we did!" and that built up.

Kawagoe

For example, we were really impressed when the sword was able to cut a sign.

Aonuma

Yeah. Miyamoto-san put that in when everyone was exhausted. (laughs)

Koizumi

(Kazuaki) Morita-san17 at SRD programmed that. You don't just cut the sign, but float it in the pond. When Miyamoto-san saw that, he burst out laughing and said, "Now that's The Legend of Zelda!"

Iwawaki

Yeah, he said that. (laughs)

Koizumi

I remember it clearly.17. Mr. Kazuaki Morita: Board member and Kyoto branch manager, SRD Co., Ltd. As a programmer, he has participated in development of numerous titles, including games in The Legend of Zelda and Super Mario Bros. series.

Iwata

Aside from cutting the signs, The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time was a game with lots of forms of gameplay that players were experiencing for the first time and that must have made them think, "What's this?" and "What's going on here?" Kawagoe-san, why do you think you were able to make a game like that?

Kawagoe

In some ways, I think it was because of a certain fearlessness on the part of the staff. We were just getting acquainted with the Nintendo 64 hardware and began development in a state of excitement over all the possibilities. As a result, our feelings and behavior packed a lot into the game out of a sense of "Well, if we can do this, then let's do that, too!"

Aonuma

That's right.

Kawagoe

Put another way, it's like we were plunging into a pathless, misty expanse and thinking, "I'm sure we can do this!"

Iwata

I think that fearlessness was indeed a big factor. You were a group of people who hadn't learned before you began how hard it could be or how long it could take. (laughs)

Aonuma

We really hadn't.

Iwata

The group believed that anything was possible with the Nintendo 64 system, plunged ahead, discovered a lot of interesting stuff, omnivorously adopted it, and threw it all together in a way without any friction, resulting in a dense concentration of material.

Kawagoe

But as with the moon sliding into view, which came up earlier, a lot of things fell into place by chance.

Aonuma

That is true.

Osawa

We'd be feverishly working away at it and all of a sudden be like, "Oh, we did it!"

Aonuma

We'd get a lot done that we hadn't even imagined.

Kawagoe

I feel like we encountered a lot of such happy chance occurrences.

Iwata

So the developers could get excited about the daily discoveries.

Osawa

Almost every day, I was like, "You made that?! Well then, I'm gonna..."

Aonuma

Each day, I experienced the reward of seeing the practically empty world that I had first designed with only squares and triangles rapidly become a realer one as various people added their input. I was incredibly happy about that.

Kawagoe

I suppose we could do that because we were all young.

Aonuma

Yes. There's nothing I can say in reply to that! (laughs)

Everyone

(laughs)

Iwata

Koizumi-san, I think you're the youngest among the team members here today. How old were you when you made The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time?

Koizumi

I was about 26 or 27. How about you, Aonuma-san?

Aonuma

I was in my thirties without doubt.

Koizumi

(looking serious) I was the youngest among those of us here, so I was ill at ease (laughs) and couldn't really say what I wanted.

Aonuma

Huh? No way! You always said the harshest things! (laughs)

Everyone

(laughs)

Koizumi

Did I? (laughs) I think it will show up in the next session of "Iwata Asks," but the designers (Yoshiki) Haruhana-san and (Satoru) Takizawa-san were in their early twenties then, and they kept up their enthusiasm. The development period was two and a half years.

Iwata

And it was a particularly intense two and a half years.

Koizumi

When it's that long, you should run out of breath, but we never did.

Aonuma

Nope.

Koizumi

It wasn't hard at all for me to work until or past midnight every day.

Kawagoe

Yeah, we were all young. (laughs)

Osawa

It was fun how each day was different.

Koizumi

It sure was.

Iwata

We raced along for two and a half years, experiencing immense changes each day.

Aonuma

That's right.

Koizumi

Work is generally fun, but that may have been the most satisfying time. I was able to make a lot of selfish demands, so I think we caused everyone trouble…but it was fun.

Aonuma

We weren't selfish—we were dedicated.

Koizumi

My mistake.

Aonuma

No problem. (laughs)

Osawa

I think if the same team ever had to make the next The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time, it would probably be fun.

Koizumi

No…let's not! (laughs)

Aonuma

Osawa-san…that's no joke! (laughs)

Everyone

(laughs)

Thirteen Years Later
Iwata

Lastly, I'd like each of you to say a few words regarding the return of The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time 13 years after its original release. Shall we start with you, Iwawaki-san?

Iwawaki

Sure. I actually tried out The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time 3D for the Nintendo 3DS system and felt that big world of The Legend of Zelda drawing me in.

Iwata

That immense world was in the palm of your hand.

Iwawaki

Yes, just like that. I felt like that world was right there. I hope everyone else will enjoy the world of The Legend of Zelda to the fullest.

Aonuma

As mentioned earlier, it was really fun when we were making the original game, because each day we made rewarding progress and the world in the game rapidly came together. I think the players could sense the fun we had.

Iwata

You feel like the developers' feelings reached the players through the game.

Aonuma

Right. Our feeling 13 years ago is even further amplified in the Nintendo 3DS version. I hope the players will sense that. If you go on an adventure in that broad world in the Nintendo 3DS version, new discoveries await.

Iwata

Some who played the Nintendo 64 version may not have played it to its fullest.

Aonuma

That's right. We put in all sorts of weird stuff (laughs), so I hope everyone will find those things.

Kawagoe

The Nintendo 3DS version is a remake, but there are different directions to take with a remake. I don't think simply spiffing up the graphics and making it more luxurious would inspire the same moving experience. But this remake plays out the stereoscopic 3D, allowing players to experience the splendor of the Nintendo 64 version from a new perspective. I think that's great.

Iwata

Kawagoe-san, have you played the Nintendo 3DS version?

Kawagoe

Yes. I was surprised to see what the landforms we had created were like!

Iwata

You didn't know until seeing them on the Nintendo 3DS version?

Kawagoe

No. On the Nintendo 64 version, I sort of knew what they were like by filling in their real forms in my head, but on the Nintendo 3DS version, like when looking at Hyrule Field, I got a much clearer sense of what the landforms and distances were like.

Aonuma

That surprised me, too.

Iwata

You were surprised even though you had made them.

Kawagoe

A discovery 13 years later!

Iwata

I see. How about you, Koizumi-san?

Koizumi

I'm really scared to play the Nintendo 3DS version. That's because I feel like if I encounter my work from 13 years ago, I'll find a lot of stuff to make me cringe.

Kawagoe

I was the same way. (laughs)

Koizumi

But they're making the Nintendo 3DS version in Tokyo, so they asked me to check it. I hesitantly tried it out (laughs) and was pleased to see how handsome Link looks!

Iwata

Uh-huh. (laughs)

Koizumi

I changed the character design for Link a lot for The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time. At first he had a button-nose.

Iwata

Yeah, he had a distinctive nose.

Koizumi

My wife said, "All of Nintendo's characters have funny noses. Don't you have any handsome ones?" I was shocked.

Iwata

(laughs)

Koizumi

Then when we were making The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time, I was in charge of Link's character design, so I made him a little better-looking.

Aonuma

Huh? So Link is your wife's type?

Koizumi

Yes. (firmly)

Everyone

(laughs)

Iwata

The truth comes out 13 years later. (laughs)

Koizumi

I cut back on his sideburns and made his nose a little stronger.

Iwata

It's narrower.

Koizumi

And I pierced his ears, making him sort of cool. But it wouldn't suit Nintendo if he were too cool, so he wears that long underwear. (laughs)

Aonuma

Huh? Is that long underwear? (laughs)

Koizumi

Yeah. He wears that green tunic and cool gloves, but underneath, it's long underwear. (laughs) But when I saw Link on the Nintendo 3DS version, I was pleased by how incredibly refined he looked. So I want everyone to check out that even cooler Link!

Osawa

I haven't laid hands on the Nintendo 3DS version yet. That's not because I'm scared like Koizumi-san, but because I want to buy it myself and play it like any other gamer. I'm really looking forward to seeing how what we made 13 years ago has changed, and I'm glad what we made 13 years ago has been shed new light by someone else so I can enjoy it too.

Iwata

I suppose you'll feel like you're opening a time capsule.

Osawa

Yes. The only Legend of Zelda game I've ever worked on was The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time, so I felt like I had done everything I could. But today, 13 years later, I even want to enjoy looking at it again and noticing places where I could've done better, so I can't wait for the release date.

Aonuma

(with feeling) I'm envious…

Everyone

(laughs)

Aonuma

I've been involved with every game in the series since The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time, so I don't feel that way. I'm like, "Tch!" (laughs)

Osawa

Well, that's your job.

Koizumi

Aonuma-san, wanna switch with me on Super Mario Bros. sometime?

Aonuma

Hey, that sounds good… Not!

Koizumi

I'll make the next Zelda game. Then you can enjoy playing it.

Aonuma

No way. (firmly)

Everyone

(laughs)

Iwata

Today sort of felt like a class reunion. (laughs)

Osawa

It really is one! (laughs)

Iwata

I enjoyed hearing everything you had to say today. Thank you for taking so much time.

Everyone

Thank you!

Original Development Staff - Part 2
This interview consists of Kazuaki Morita, Makoto Miyanaga, Satoru Takizawa, Yoshihiki Haruhana, and Eiji Aonuma.

Fun Days
Iwata

Thank you for coming today.

Everyone

We're pleased to be here.

Iwata

Aonuma-san, who participated in our last session of "Iwata Asks," is staying on as we begin part two of our series featuring the original development staff that worked on the Nintendo 64 version of The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time. Part one was like a class reunion! (laughs)

Aonuma

Yeah. I'm sure we'll have fun this time, too! (laughs)

Iwata

What did each of you work on for the original game? Haruhana-san, would you introduce yourself first, please?

Haruhana

I'm Haruhana from the Entertainment Analysis & Development Division (EAD). I did most of the modeling and animation myself for characters other than Link, whom (Yoshiaki) Koizumi-san was in charge of.

Iwata

That was before the work was divided up so much, so you had to do everything yourself.

Haruhana

Yes. It was really fun, because you had control over everything yourself.

Takizawa

I'm Takizawa from EAD. Haruhana-san made the characters, but I was in charge of the bosses and enemies. I had the honor of learning under Morita-san at SRD1 in creating their movements. Each day, I enjoyed breathing life into the bosses I had designed.1. SRD Co., Ltd.: A company established in 1979 that contracts to develop video game software programs and develops and sells CAD packages. The head office is in Osaka, and their Kyoto office is inside Nintendo headquarters.

Miyanaga

I'm Miyanaga from EAD. I was in charge of field design. Lots of fields appear in this game. I was in charge of Kokiri Forest—the first stage—as well as Hyrule Field and other locations.

Morita

I'm Morita from SRD. As Takizawa-san mentioned, I was mainly in charge of programming the bosses. I also worked on the  fishing minigame.

Iwata

You are quite the fisherman!

Morita

No, no… (laughs)

Aonuma

You didn't just do the programming, but you also wrote the script for the Pond Owner who appears at the Fishing Pond.

Morita

Oh, that's right! He speaks in the Osaka dialect, so I wrote sample dialogue and gave it to (Toru) Osawa-san, the script director, to brush up.

Haruhana

In addition to the dialogue, Morita-san made lots of requests regarding that character's face and movements. He requested specific movements like this one (gesturing as if scratching his side) and even drew a rough sketch of how his face should look.

Morita

Yeah. (laughs)

Haruhana

Earlier, I said that it was fun having complete control over the characters, but when it came to that character, I had no control! (laughs)

Everyone

(laughs)

Iwata

Morita-san, did you make so many requests because that character was modeled after someone real?

Morita

Yes, that's right! (laughs) I like fishing and I'm from an area near Neyagawa in Osaka, and there's a fishing store I used to go to in that neighborhood. My model was the shopkeeper there.

Iwata

I knew it.

Morita

You caught me. (laughs)

Haruhana

Morita-san made so many requests that we had to redo the character at least two or three times. (laughs)

Everyone

(laughs)

Iwata

Later on, I'd like to talk to you more about the Fishing Pond.

Morita

Okay. (laughs) I'll be looking forward to it.

Iwata

Haruhana-san, Takizawa-san and Miyanaga-san, you were the core designers for The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time, but you were all quite young at the time.

Haruhana

Yes.

Iwata

Before that, what kind of work were you doing, Haruhana-san?

Haruhana

In the days of the Nintendo 64 system, I designed the map for Super Mario 64.2 After that, I designed and supervised the UI (user interface) and demos for Star Fox 64.32. Super Mario 64™: The first 3D action game in the Super Mario Bros.™ series. Released simultaneously with the Nintendo 64™ system in June 1996.

3. Star Fox™ 64: A 3D shooting game released for the Nintendo 64 system in April 1997.

Iwata

How many years have you been at the company?

Haruhana

This is my eighteenth year. I joined in 1994.

Iwata

And did you work with the Nintendo 64 system right after joining?

Haruhana

No, at first I received guidance from (Yoichi) Kotabe-san4 and did artwork. My first real assignment was doing  illustrations for Kirby's Dream Course.5

Iwata

Huh? Kirby's Dream Course?

Haruhana

Yes.

Iwata

You did that?!

Haruhana

Uh, yeah. That's right. (laughs)

Iwata

Hmm, I didn't know that. Thank you for your work on that.

Haruhana

No, not at all! (laughs)

Iwata

Kirby's Dream Course came out in September of 1994, right after you joined the company.

Haruhana

Yes. After that, I drew illustrations for Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island.6 I was involved with artwork, but when we were switching from the Super Famicom system to the Nintendo 64 system, I gradually started helping make the games. After development of Super Mario 64 began, I started working on field design.

Iwata

Lots of people were brought in to help with the field design for that game.

Haruhana

Yeah. Miyanaga-san, too, right?

Miyanaga

Yeah.4. Mr. Yoichi Kotabe: One of Japan's foremost animators. His works include the popular anime series Heidi, Girl of the Alps. Later, he joined Nintendo, where he began designing characters such as Mario™. Currently he is active as a freelance agent.

5. Kirby's Dream Course™: An action game released for the Super Famicom system in September 1994. At the time of release, Satoru Iwata was president of HAL Laboratory, Inc., which developed the game.

6. Super Mario World™ 2: Yoshi's Island™: An action game released for the Super Famicom system in August 1995.

Iwata

Haruhana-san, when you were placed in charge of character design for The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time, could you see from the start what you had to make?

Haruhana

I'm not sure what you mean.

Iwata

According to the "class reunion" we had earlier, no one could see the goal toward which they were headed, despite running full steam ahead.

Haruhana

We might chalk that up to youth. (laughs)

Iwata

(Takumi) Kawagoe-san, who was in charge of the cinematics, said the same thing!

Haruhana

I just remember everyone plunging whole-heartedly ahead.

Miyanaga

That's right.

Haruhana

I became able to do new things each day, and new characters rapidly came to life, so coming to work every day was a blast.

Iwata

The Nintendo 64 system was still new, so lots of graphics like we'd never seen before appeared. Each day was a fresh experience.

Haruhana

Yes. Iwata-san mentioned not being able to see the goal, but it was more like I didn't even think about the goal! I just innocently focused on my drawing.

Takizawa

Yes, we worked innocently.

Haruhana

That's how fun every day was!

Making the Characters
Iwata

Haruhana-san, you were in charge of character design, while Takizawa-san, you were in charge of the enemies and bosses. How did you decide to divide up your roles like that?

Takizawa

Um…it just worked out that way.

Haruhana

When I first joined the team, I actually made a few of the enemies. But as I was working, I realized I wasn't suited to it.

Iwata

You weren't good at making enemies?

Haruhana

It wasn't really that I wasn't good at it, but Takizawa-san was much better. He turned out so much great stuff that I naturally stepped aside! (laughs)

Iwata

Which enemies did you made?

Haruhana

The Skulltula and Lizalfos.

Takizawa

Using skull and lizard themes.

Iwata

Many characters in The Legend of Zelda games are incredibly distinctive.

Haruhana

Yes.

Iwata

Where do all those unprecedented characters come from?

Haruhana

I was just innocently drawing away.

Iwata

For example, did anyone tell you to make them distinctive?

Haruhana

No, but I would get tough requests—like a request to draw someone who would buy ghosts. But I've never seen anyone like that! (laughs) I'd think, "What kind of person would buy a ghost?" and then sit around, grinning to myself, and thinking, "What can I do about this?"

It's easy to focus on how the characters look, but I feel like they don't really become distinctive until you see how they act when their dialogue and demo videos come together.

Iwata

In other words, you're not the only one who contributes to their characteristics.

Haruhana

Right. They're a product of everyone working together.

Iwata

So the extremely distinctive characters aren't merely the result of your own output, but the result of everyone throwing in their ideas.

Haruhana

Right. My job is to give the characters shape at the start, but Osawa-san's script has something like the unformed material in it.

Iwata

The script contains in words a kind of function required of that character.

Haruhana

Right. I interpret for myself how I should design a character based on what kind of role that character plays. For example, I drew  the Gorons who live on Death Mountain in the way that seemed best to me.

Iwata

When you first gave them shape, I bet you wanted, somewhat mischievously, to get an exclamation from everyone.

Haruhana

Yes, that's right. (laughs) First, I wanted the staff to love the design. Seeing whether I can put smiles on the faces of the people around me when I show them something I have innocently drawn is one filter I have. And if it feels right, then I play around with it along those lines and polish it up. I do that over and over.

Iwata

A lot of distinctive characters have been born that way.

Haruhana

That's right. But thinking back, I may not have been very hungry for that acceptance back then. What I mean is, I may have been a little weird back then, like I was on automatic drawing or something.

Iwata

Huh? You mean you were cranking out one character after the other?

Haruhana

I'm embarrassed to admit it, but yes. I just drew whatever popped into my head one after the other.

Iwata

You've mentioned several times how you were "innocently" drawing, and I guess that's what you meant.

Haruhana

Yes. I was just naturally scribbling away. I couldn't see the goal because I was immersed in the world of The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time and drawing with fervor.

Iwata

I see.

Haruhana

But The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time has lots of big fields with lots of characters, so I figured in my own youthful way that there was a need to create a strong impression of which people were where.

Iwata

There was a need to create characters that you would never forget once you saw them.

Haruhana

Right. For example, I made a considerable conscious effort to make sure players would remember who they would run into if they went around a particular corner.

Since characters are essentially people, there's a tendency to think that their faces are important, but I pay more attention to their figures. Sometimes I shape the figure first and then think about the face. Games can't do much with just close-ups of the characters' faces, so I think that what grabs people more than this or that facial characteristic is a memorable overall shape.

Aonuma

The  Great Fairy is one character you never forget.

Iwata

The Great Fairy is extremely flamboyant!

Aonuma

The first time I saw her, rather than smile, I drew back! (laughs)

Everyone

(laughs)

Aonuma

She comes out with a laugh, so I thought she might show up in my dreams. (laughs) No one but Haruhana-san could draw a character like that!

Haruhana

Thanks. (laughs)

Aonuma

And it's not like someone asked you up front to create an extremely garish fairy, right?

Haruhana

Right. If I drew a typical fairy, it would be boring. Like what I said earlier about figure, I think it's important to have a gap between what you do and what everyone expects. So at the very least, I wanted to take a half-step in another direction.

Morita

That's a half-step?! (laughs)

Haruhana

Huh? Oh, that's about three, no, maybe four steps! (laughs)

Everyone

(laughs)

Making the Bosses and Enemies
Iwata

Now, Takizawa-san, I'd like to ask you about boss and enemy design.

Takizawa

Okay.

Iwata

How do you begin making the bosses for a Zelda game?

Takizawa

In general, I start by receiving the enemy specs from Aonuma-san and considering the designs and functions there. Then, once the specs have come together somewhat, I go to Morita-san at SRD and have him make them move.

Aonuma

What I gave him was just the basic character arc.

Iwata

So how the boss appears is the beginning, how the boss attacks is the development, how you beat it is the turn, and how that boss ends up is the conclusion.

Aonuma

Right. I just provided a framework and Morita-san and Takizawa-san fleshed it out while I waited and looked forward to seeing how it would turn out. But early on in development, I was groping around and drew some of my own sketches.

Iwata

Huh? You did?

Aonuma

Yeah. I was once a designer myself. (laughs) But one day, I showed Takizawa-san a sketch I had drawn and said, "I want you to make an enemy like this." He cut me down, saying, "Aonuma-san, could you please stop drawing your own sketches?"

Iwata

Why was that?

Aonuma

I thought, "Huh? Why?" and asked if my drawing was really that bad. He said it solidified the appearance, whereas he would rather be free to draw what he wants.

Iwata

Takizawa-san wanted to start with a blank slate when he drew the bosses.

Takizawa

Sorry…but yeah.

Aonuma

But I really wanted him to follow that design! I was totally bummed. (laughs)

Iwata

(laughs)

Takizawa

Oh, I really am sorry. I was young and insolent.

Aonuma

I had strong feelings about it and felt like I'd come up with some unique enemies, but then Takizawa-san and Morita-san turned out a bunch of stuff far beyond what I had ever imagined.

Iwata

Takizawa-san and Morita-san, how did you proceed with your work together?

Takizawa

I was practically a new guy and Morita-san was already a veteran, so I went back and forth to SRD as if I was training under him.

Iwata

Back when we were in the former head office?77. Former head office: Currently the Nintendo Kyoto Research Center in Higashiyama Ward, Kyoto City. In 2000, Nintendo moved its head office to Minami Ward, Kyoto City.

Takizawa

That's right. SRD was in a different building than EAD. You could go in barefoot, which felt good, so I always went over.

Iwata

Because it felt good? (laughs)

Takizawa

Yeah. (laughs) I explained the enemies to Morita-san and he put the programming together right away. I'd look at it and say, "Could you make this a little more…" and about 15 minutes later, he'd show me the new movement. We did that over and over. I think that substantive back-and-forth time was a great learning experience. I learned how to do things as if you're playing catch.

Iwata

Was that about your fourth year here?

Takizawa

It was my third year.

Iwata

That's quite a valuable experience to have in your third and fourth years. You apprenticed under Morita-san in the early days of the Famicom system.

Takizawa

That's right.

Iwata

You trained under your master, tossing the ball to him, to which he would respond by tossing it back in an amazing way. Even though he was your senior, you must have had some youthful insolence making you want to cut him down size. (laughs)

Takizawa

Yes, that's right. (laughs) I felt like I was privileged to learn from him, but I also had a strong desire not to let him beat me, so I wanted to cut him down to size.

Morita

We chatted about a lot of stuff completely unrelated to the game.

Takizawa

Oh, that's right. He taught me about fishing. (laughs) If I asked about programming, though, I hadn't studied that sort of thing, so I couldn't understand it all. But when he showed me some amazing character movement, I couldn't help but ask about it, like, "How do you do that?"

Iwata

As a programmer, you're happy when someone asks, "How do you do that?" Right, Takizawa-san? (laughs)

Takizawa

You are? (laughs)

Iwata

Yes! (laughs)

Takizawa

You don't think, "If you don't know anything about it, then don't ask!" or something like that?

Iwata

No, no. Don't you think that you want to find some way of explaining it so they understand?

Morita

I know I do. Of course, it depends on what it's about, though.

Iwata

Yes, some things aren't easy to explain.

Takizawa

An example from The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time is the boss  Volvagia, which looks like a dragon.

Iwata

Yes. The boss in the Fire Temple.

Takizawa

Volvagia is a dragon, so it wriggles and undulates. I only gave Morita-san the dragon model parts, but he set it in motion immediately. It was mysterious how he could do that.

Iwata

You were impressed—like, "I don't get it, but wow!"

Takizawa

Yeah. I couldn't help but ask how he did it. He said it was the same as the programming for Star Fox 64. There's this scene when another fighter aircraft is tailing Arwing and…

Iwata

(jumping in) Oh, that? That's right! It's the same!

Takizawa

I should have known you'd pick up on it right away! (laughs)

Haruhana

Because he's a programmer, too! (laughs)

Takizawa

But when I heard that, I didn't quite get it. I just thought, "Wow, that's cool…"

Iwata

The way the fighter moves as it flies and Volvagia's movements are exactly the same.

Morita

I could do it easily by switching in the dragon for the fighter.

Takizawa

I was like "Whoa!" and "I see!" and had a great time every day marveling over it all.

Making the Fishing Game
Iwata

Morita-san, may I ask you about the fishing game?

Morita

Huh? Is it all right if I go first?

Iwata

Miyanaga-san, I'll ask about the stages later.

Miyanaga

Okay.

Morita

Let's see, where should I begin?

Iwata

The Fishing Pond in Ocarina of Time is so complete that it's practically a whole fishing video game. That is a part of the Zelda tradition that continues to this day. How did you come to make something on such an impressive scale?

Morita

The Water Temple is in Lake Hylia. Aonuma-san designed that dungeon. The boss that appears there is Morpha. Just when I was making that, there was a landform like a pool.

Iwata

Morpha rises up out of the pool and fights Link.

Morita

Right. When I was making that boss, I casually…

Iwata

"Casually"? (laughs) I doubt you had that kind of time!

Morita

But for some reason I did. (laughs)

Everyone

(laughs)

Morita

I just happened to have a model of a fish, so…

Iwata

You "just happened" to have it? (laughs)

Morita

Yes! (laughs) A model of a fish for putting in an empty bottle. I borrowed that and had it swim in the pool in the dungeon, and when I saw it swimming around, I thought, "Oh! I can go fishing!"

Iwata

What did you do for a fishing pole?

Morita

I took the model for something and made it a cylinder, and then… (gestures as if casting a fishing pole)

Haruhana

You used the motion for Link swinging his sword.

Morita

Yep. But at that time, it was just for my own enjoyment. You know, for when I needed to take a breather.

Iwata

How long did it take before the other project members discovered this?

Morita

Hmm, not long.

Aonuma

At first, I didn't have any idea he was doing that.

Morita

Oh, that's right. Aonuma-san came over and I was like, "Uh-oh!" and immediately closed the screen.

Everyone

(laughs)

Aonuma

Well, you were supposed to be making a boss!

Iwata

We had pushed back the project several times, so making a boss was pressing business. You should have been doing that! (laughs)

Morita

Nonetheless, for some reason, it just kept coming together and…

Iwata

"For some reason"?! Yeah, because you were pouring your energy into it! (laughs) Is it really that easy to make a fishing game?

Morita

Yeah. I didn't have to put much effort into it.

Aonuma

Really…?

Morita

No, it's true. And it turned out just as I imagined.

Aonuma

Oh, so you had a complete idea of it before you made it?

Morita

Yeah.

Miyanaga

We didn't have to rework it much.

Iwata

I see. From the start, you had a clear image in your head of what you wanted to make.

Morita

Yes. If I had the materials and the right place, I knew we could throw it together in to time.

Aonuma

So, Miyanaga-san, you had to make the landform.

Miyanaga

Yes. One day, all of a sudden, the field team came and said, "We need a place to go fishing!" But we didn't know where we should make it.

Iwata

The fishing game actually doesn't have anything to do with Link's adventure.

Miyanaga

Yeah! (laughs) But if we could create such realistic fishing, everyone wanted to put it in, even if it increased our work.

Aonuma

Everyone was actually quite excited, saying, "We gotta put that in!"

Miyanaga

We thought a fishing hole should be near water and decided to put it at Lake Hylia. But we hadn't originally planned on that, so we slapped doors onto a bare stretch of cliff at the edge of the lake. (laughs)

Aonuma

Yeah! We forced it in! (laughs)

Morita

It's considered a minigame, but it actually isn't all that small. We had to make a different room to read that data.

Iwata

So you decided on a place for the Fishing Pond and had to make the contents. Did you make lots of requests, like for the Pond Owner we discussed earlier?

Morita

Instead of putting in requests, I had them put me in charge of the design! I was like, "Put piles here," and "Put floating weeds here…"

Miyanaga

We created a foundation and then Morita-san designed everything, even the placement of floating weeds.

Iwata

When a programmer gets ambitious, he is truly forceful! (laughs)

Aonuma

The Fishing Pond uses sound from fighting enemies, doesn't it?

Morita

That was to create tension.

Miyanaga

Was that song at your request?

Morita

Uh…yeah.

Iwata

You even decided the sound?

Morita

I requested it and put it in myself, and it got left that way.

Aonuma

When you say "request," you mean you took it without permission and put it in yourself! (laughs)

Morita

Yeah…that's about right. (laughs)

Everyone

(laughs)

Morita

I'd get in trouble if I did that today! The sound staff would be like, "You can't just use that!"

Takizawa

The Fishing Pond truly was your holy ground! (laughs)

Haruhana

Morita-san could do whatever he wanted there. (laughs)

Miyanaga

We were mere assistants. (laughs)

Morita

Sorry. I really appreciate it! (laughs)

Making the Fields
Iwata

Morita-san, you were the one who introduced  cutting the signs with the sword, weren't you? Why did you do that?

Morita

No, (Shigeru) Miyamoto-san suggested that.

Iwata

Oh, is that so? So as usual, Miyamoto-san just strolled in, dropped an idea, and left?

Morita

Yeah. He was like, "You can slice through the sign, right?" (laughs)

Miyanaga

If you swing the sword at an angle, the sign splits diagonally. Who made it so you can cut the signs different ways like that?

Morita

I think I designed that. I thought of it like a little wheel of cheese cut into six pieces.

Iwata

Like cheese, huh? (laughs)

Aonuma

In addition to cutting it, a piece will float in the pond. Was that you, Morita-san?

Morita

Yeah, that was me.

Aonuma

Morita-san is strong on the waterfront. (laughs)

Everyone

(laughs)

Iwata

I laughed when I first saw that. (laughs)

Haruhana

We saw that at night. Miyamoto-san whispered, "That's cool…"

Iwata

He said, "Now that's The Legend of Zelda!"

Haruhana

It isn't much at a glance, but when we put effort into making it float and drift smoothly, Miyamoto-san was really impressed.

Morita

I'm happy about that. When we made it so a piece would float in the water, they put a sign at the waterside.

Iwata

They changed the position of the sign because they wanted people to see a piece of it floating in the water.

Miyanaga

Right.

Iwata

It doesn't have anything to do with the original function of the signs, though. (laughs)

Aonuma

Yeah. If you cut the sign, you can't read what's on it! (laughs)

Everyone

(laughs)

Aonuma

So we made it so that if you go out once and play "Zelda's Lullaby" on the ocarina, it repairs the sign.

Iwata

So you also had to add a way to return the sign to normal.

Aonuma

Right. Development was in its final stages, and we were really busy, but we were like, "It'll be cool, so let's do it!" (laughs)

Iwata

So it was part of Miyanaga's work and of the others working on the landforms to put a sign by the water and make the Fishing Pond a special landform.

Miyanaga

Yeah.

Iwata

What were you doing before you joined the team for Ocarina of Time?

Miyanaga

Right after joining the company, I was working on pixel art, but in the latter half of my second year, I started working on Super Mario 64.

Iwata

Like Haruhana-san, they called you in to help with field design.

Miyanaga

Yeah. That was my first encounter with polygons. It was fun to see what I had made come together. I also joined the project team for Mario Kart 648 in the latter half of development and made courses.

Iwata

After Mario Kart 64 was over, you joined the team for Ocarina of Time.

Miyanaga

That's right.8. Mario Kart™ 64: An action-racing game released for the Nintendo 64 system in December 1996.

Iwata

How did you make the landforms?

Miyanaga

I don't remember exactly, but when I joined the project, the town stage was done. Link was just walking around an empty town. I remember we were talking and started wondering what we could do with the world.

Iwata

You were still experimenting.

Miyanaga

Yeah. What I do remember well is how we wanted a village, so we decided to make Kakariko Village at the foot of Death Mountain.

So I drew some rough sketches and talked them over with Haruhana-san, who was in charge of the characters, and Osawa-san, who was in charge of the script. We said, "If we have this kind of resident, they would live in this kind of house," and "Supposing we made this kind of house, this kind of person would live here," and expanded the world of the village.

Iwata

So instead of having a blueprint for the village from the start, everyone threw out ideas, and little-by-little the residents and houses increased in number, and in the end, the village was done.

Miyanaga

Yeah, it was like that.

Iwata

You were also in charge of  Hyrule Field. The reason you made such a vast world was so Link could gallop around on a horse, right?

Miyanaga

Right. It created quite a fuss when I first made that field. People were like, "You can't make it that big!" (laughs) Even riding a horse, it was so big that you would get bored riding around it, so we had to add something. Then lots of people took a hand in it, having enemies appear and putting holes here and there.

Aonuma

We went around the field looking for places where there wasn't anything and put something at each one.

Miyanaga

We'd be like, "This area's a bit empty, so I'll make a hole and put something in it." (laughs)

Iwata

In other words, you made Hyrule Field as a basis for everyone to build their ideas upon, and that's how it turned out to be that kind of space.

Miyanaga

Right. We made Kakariko Village that way, too.

Takizawa

We've never really had a perfect blueprint when making a Zelda game. Basically, there's a basis and everyone tosses ideas back and forth and puts them all together.

Haruhana

That's right. Everyone was always talking things over, putting their ideas together, and making things. For example, instead of telling the director to make a decision, we decided things together.

Iwata

In other words, you weren't divided into people who gave orders and people who took them.

Haruhana

Right. Regardless of position or career, we said, "I like it this way better," and naturally shared opinions. That was especially marked toward the end of development.

Miyanaga

Toward the end, we were like, "I'll take care of that."

Haruhana

Right. If you noticed something, you just went ahead and did something about it.

Iwata

The release date got pushed back several times.

Aonuma

Yeah.

Iwata

In general, when a release date gets pushed back and the due date for development is extended, hard days lie ahead, so the atmosphere gets heavy.

Takizawa

But that didn't happen at all with this project.

Aonuma

Why was that?

Takizawa

Instead, we were like, "All right!"

Iwata

Huh? All right? (laughs)

Takizawa

Yeah. We thought, "Now we can fix that one spot!"

Haruhana

"We can polish that up more!"

Miyanaga

"I can put a hole at that one empty spot!"

Aonuma

Usually shouting "We got an extension! All right!" is unimaginable, but on this project, if I said, "Just let that go," to someone, they would reply, "Huh? Why would I do that?" (laughs)

Takizawa

At that time, all we could think was, "That was bothering me, so now I've got time to fix it!" We felt very sorry that the fans had to wait even longer when the release got pushed back, but I remember that we ourselves were overjoyed!

Hospitality on the Attack
Iwata

Right up until the end, as you were making The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time, you were putting your ideas together, saying, "Let's put that in!" and "And that, too!" and "We can fix this!" When it finally went on sale, it touched the hearts of people all over the world. Why do you think that is?

Aonuma

A lot of people say they like the epic story. But on the level of the script, the story isn't actually that epic.

Haruhana

There aren't a ton of lines of dialogue like in an RPG.

Aonuma

Right. I think the reason the players sense an epic story and drama is that everything you experience within the game is added to the story.

Iwata

Your memories of solving a puzzle and thinking, "I'm so smart," pile up as such experiences.

Aonuma

Right.

Iwata

And that makes it epic.

Haruhana

I felt that way, too. In making The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time 3D for the Nintendo 3DS system, I played the original Nintendo 64 version again for the first time in a long while and sensed an immense amount of hospitality.

Iwata

Hospitality?

Haruhana

In the dungeons, for example, I felt as if someone were saying, "Welcome!" each time I entered a room. And when players go into a room, there's a roughness in the way it attacks with its full strength. After 13 years, it still has that impact.

Iwata

Um, the words "hospitality" and "attack" don't usually come up together.

Haruhana

Hmm. I suppose not. (laughs)

Iwata

I mean, what kind of hospitality is hospitality that attacks? (laughs)

Haruhana

Well, when I say hospitality, I don't mean waiting on you hand and foot, I mean that when you go somewhere, all kinds of play await for your enjoyment.

Iwata

Oh, that is true. Wherever you go, there's a new experience.

Haruhana

That concentration is amazing. And it isn't a highly organized kind of hospitality like today's games exhibit. Ocarina of Time has a certain bumpiness, irregularity or roughness.

Iwata

And that's what you mean by attack? (laughs)

Haruhana

Yes…right. (laughs) Many players who grappled head-on with its imperfectly organized hospitality at the time still talk about it.

Aonuma

Actually, a lot of places turn away the player.

Haruhana

That's roughness, too.

Aonuma

It isn't perfectly organized, so sometimes you end up wandering aimlessly.

Iwata

Yeah. There are a few places where you get lost.

Morita

Like in the Water Temple.

Aonuma

Man, don't go into that! (laughs)

Everyone

(laughs)

Morita

But the people who got lost there can refresh at the Fishing Pond.

Aonuma

Oh, I see. So that's how you set it up! (laughs)

Morita

Oh right, of course. (firmly)

Miyanaga

They are right next to each other…

Morita

It's the perfect placement.

Iwata

Miyanaga-san, did you hear that? (laughs)

Miyanaga

Yes. Thank you very much. (laughs)

Iwata

Last, I'd like each of you to say a few words about how you would like people to play Ocarina of Time now that it has returned 13 years after its original release. We'll start with you, Haruhana-san.

Haruhana

When I first heard about the remake, I was really happy because people who hadn't experienced the Nintendo 64 version would have a chance to play the game. But I was also worried that since we were faithfully remaking the original, people might think it was old.

Iwata

After all, it is 13 years old.

Haruhana

But when I played the Nintendo 3DS version, I realized that it hadn't faded. There are new elements this time, including the stereoscopic 3D, so I hope people who played it before will play it again without saying, "Why now?"

I also hope people who haven't experienced Ocarina of Time before will experience its "rough hospitality." I'm also looking forward to hearing what people think of it.

Takizawa

I was involved with the remake, too. With regard to game operation, people who played the Nintendo 64 version say it was really comfortable and idealize it.

Iwata

It is a good memory to them.

Takizawa

Yes. So I thought the work this time involved turning minuses to zeroes.

Iwata

What do you mean?

Takizawa

With regard to the things everyone has idealized, we gave high priority to raising everything to the same level.

Iwata

If players think, "It wasn't like this," that's a minus, so you have to make them think, "Yes, yes. That's how it was."

Takizawa

Right. It was rewarding, though, to see how what we had made surpassed the Nintendo 64 version. Neither people who experienced the Nintendo 64 version nor new players will think of it as an old game. I think they will be able to play it as a new game, so I hope they enjoy it.

Miyanaga

I hardly touched development of the Nintendo 3DS version at all. I was uneasy before I played it. But when I did, the next thing I knew, I was totally immersed in it.

Iwata

What did you think when you saw Hyrule Field—which you had designed—in 3D?

Miyanaga

The hills looked like hills!

Iwata

I see. (laughs)

Miyanaga

On the Nintendo 64 version, they didn't feel much like hills. But in 3D imaging, you can really tell how the hills rise up. I thought, "Oh, so this is what the landforms were like!"

Iwata

Even though you made the original landforms (laughs), you rediscovered them!

Miyanaga

Yeah. It's more realistic. And you can really feel that special atmosphere that The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time has—which was very important. So I hope people who play it for the first time and people who played it before will both experience a world slightly different from that of the Nintendo 64 version.

Morita

To put it a different way, suppose a ramen shop I used to love closed 13 years ago.

Iwata

Ok. (laughs)

Morita

And all this time I've been thinking, "Man, I would love to eat that ramen again!" Then that shop opens again! The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time 3D is like that.

Iwata

And when you go in that shop, you think, "Oh, this is the taste!"

Morita

No, "It tastes even better!" (laughs)

Everyone

(laughs)

Morita

Rather than just look back fondly, I want everyone to experience the best possible taste that is only possible now, 13 years later.

Aonuma

It recreates that familiar taste, but as a new game.

Haruhana

However, having something I made 13 years ago reappear is a little embarrassing, like looking at essays I wrote in junior high. (laughs)

Iwata

In the last "Iwata Asks," Koizumi-san said he was scared to play it. (laughs) Next time, I will be talking to everyone who, 13 years after the original game, breathed new life into The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time. Thank you for your time today.

Everyone

Thank you.

Development Staff
This interview features Eiji Aonuma, Takao Shimizu, Nagako Ikuta, Shun Moriya, Takashi Tonooka, and Koichi Ishii.

A 13-Year Gap
Iwata

Today we are at Grezzo1 in Shibuya, Tokyo for a session of "Iwata Asks" with the production staff of The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time 3D.2 Thank you for taking time today.

Everyone

Not at all.

Iwata

All right, let's start with self-introductions.1. GREZZO Co., Ltd.: A video game developer with its head office in Shibuya Ward, Tokyo. Mr. Koichi Ishii is CEO.

2. The Legend of Zelda™: Ocarina of Time™ 3D: An action-adventure game scheduled for release for the Nintendo 3DS™ system on June 19, 2011 in North America.

Ishii

I'm Koichi Ishii from Grezzo. I was development producer. Thank you for coming today.

Tonooka

I'm Takaaki Tonooka from Grezzo. I was a manager and programmer. Nice to meet you.

Moriya

I'm Shun Moriya, a programmer at Grezzo. Pleased to meet you.

Ikuta

I'm Nagako Ikuta from the Software Planning & Development Department at Nintendo. I worked as Grezzo's contact at the software development department.

Shimizu

I'm Takao Shimizu from the EAD Tokyo Software Development Department at Nintendo. I made all sorts of arrangements to facilitate Grezzo's development effort, such as by keeping them abreast of the newest information regarding the Nintendo 3DS system.

Aonuma

This is my third "Iwata Asks" in a row! I'm Eiji Aonuma, producer of The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time 3D. I'm the one who placed a burden on everyone to satisfy my desire to remake the Water Temple.3 (laughs)3. Water Temple: A challenging dungeon that appears in The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time.

Iwata

All right, thank you. Nintendo asked Grezzo to take care of the production of The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time 3D. When we thought about releasing The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time for the Nintendo 3DS system, it was like fate how all the conditions pointed toward Grezzo, so I spoke directly with Ishii-san. Ishii-san, could I ask you to start by telling me how the plan for The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time 3D began?

Ishii

Yes. At first, I didn't know anything when you called me in.

Iwata

Right. I said, "I need to talk with you, so please come to Kyoto," like I was giving you a summons. (laughs) That wasn't how I intended it, though. Sorry if I made you nervous.

Ishii

No, not at all. (laughs) But I hadn't heard anything beforehand, and the atmosphere suggested it was something top secret. To be honest, I had a hunch it might be about new hardware.

Iwata

You have good instincts then. One reason I did need to have you come to Kyoto was so you could see the Nintendo 3DS, which was still under development.

Ishii

When I saw the Nintendo 3DS in Kyoto and heard about The Legend of Zelda, it was like a bolt from the blue!

Iwata

We revealed the Nintendo 3DS and brought up the new Zelda idea to you at the same time.

Ishii

Yeah. To be honest, when I heard that, I thought, "This is a great opportunity!" and "Uh-oh…" at the same time. Fans the world over love Ocarina of Time and it is one of Nintendo's foremost titles, so one false step could damage the brand. And lots of people have their own idea of what the game was like.

Iwata

Lots of people talk about their memories of it.

Ishii

Yeah. I often compare making video games to cooking. If game developers are like cooks, then the games they make are like food. Just as the techniques of the cooks influence the way their food tastes, the techniques and experience of game developers appear in the games.

So I thought it would be a failure as a product if people who made the original game weren't involved, causing it to turn out as something that was merely somewhat like the original game, something that looked the same but tasted different. I felt like an important theme this time was how we could make The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time 3D today.

Iwata

This is going way back, but what was your first impression of the Nintendo 3DS system?

Ishii

At first, I felt a joy as if I had returned to my boyhood. It was surprising to survey the game world as if it were really there, spreading out before me.

Iwata

Tonooka-san, you were there that day, too.

Tonooka

Yes. What first surprised me was the 3D. Until I saw the glasses-free 3D, I couldn't imagine how it would look. The moment I saw it, I thought it was incredible. Then, when I heard about The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time 3D, my mind just went blank. (laughs)

Iwata

Oh? (laughs) How did the rest of you react?

Ishii

Ever since establishing Grezzo, one of our goals has been to be involved with development of software for hardware that hadn't been released yet. So everyone was filled with surprise and excitement because we could make it ourselves. It was like a dream come true.

Iwata

But it must have been hard to develop a game for hardware still under development. What was that like for you as programmers, Tonooka-san and Moriya-san?

Tonooka

First of all, whatever we did, it was all without prior example, so we went through an intense process of trial and error. But it really helped that Shimizu-san fed us every bit of new information about the Nintendo 3DS system.

Shimizu

I have meetings in Tokyo and Kyoto every week, so I conveyed the information I got there to Grezzo so they could make their product.

Iwata

How about you, Moriya-san?

Moriya

I mostly felt lucky to be involved with hardware based around such a novel concept as 3D. As I was working on it, I realized what a high degree of freedom exists in The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time. Each person has their own way of solving the challenges posed by the game.

For example, take the scene in which you set a spiderweb on fire. Lots of people, including me, have Link roll forward or swing his torch to light it, but some people use how the tip of the torch lowers when he is holding the shield. So when I heard that the fire wouldn't light, I thought, "Uh-oh…this isn't gonna be easy." (laughs)

Iwata

The ways to solve that are stuck in the players' memories, so you have to recreate those, too.

Moriya

Right. When I looked into why the tip of the torch wouldn't light the fire, I realized that Link's arms and legs were longer and his waist higher, since we had designed him a little more to today's styles. This had caused the angle between his sword and the ground to change, so the tip of the torch wouldn't light the fire.

Iwata

You wanted to update the game, but when you did, certain elements fell apart.

Moriya

Right. During development, we talked frequently about what we could do to fill in the 13-year gap since the original game was released. A mere port would reduce the product's appeal by half.

Iwata

Ikuta-san, how were you involved?

Ikuta

I worked to make sure information flowed between Nintendo, Grezzo and the Mario Club.4 Actually, I volunteered to be in this project! (laughs)4. Mario Club Co., Ltd.: It conducts debugging and testing on Nintendo software during development.

Aonuma

Ikuta-san is extremely into The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time. If you ask her about The Legend of Zelda, a flood of opinions pours forth!

Iwata

She's a walking dictionary of Zelda lore! (laughs) Does she know more than you, Aonuma-san?

Aonuma

Yes, I think so. You could say she's a walking specifications manual! (laughs) We used her thoughts to check whether what players of the original game experienced was present in the new one.

The Idealized Borderline
Iwata

Remaking The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time to feel like it did when it came out in 1998 but also to suit tastes today must have been a struggle full of contradictions. Ishii-san, how did you solve that?

Ishii

My stance with regard to how to change it was to think about it after talking to the original staff, beginning with Aonuma-san, about the spirit of their group when they made the original game and what they thought was important. What I sought more than anything in this project was a shared sense of values with the original staff. Without that, I thought we would fail.

Iwata

You tried to make sure discrepancies didn't arise between Grezzo and the original staff as you talked back-and-forth. But I doubt you were all headed in the same direction from the very start.

Ishii

No. As creators, we were itching to plunge ahead with our own ideas. At first, each staff member's eyes tended to focus on details, seeing points rather than the whole plane, so to speak. But as we talked with the original staff, a shared sense arose of what to fix where.

Tonooka

I thought another point was what I would call "memory complementing"—figuring out how the fans' memories and our thoughts might complement each other.

Iwata

It's a 13-year-old game, so you have to achieve the right visual balance in consideration of how it has been idealized in the fans' heads to a certain extent.

Moriya

Yes. One of our staff members really loves The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time. He has in his head an idealized borderline. Making the game today at any level beneath that borderline is unimaginable to him. But if you focus on that too much, the overall balance would suffer and cooler heads would feel like the game had changed too much, so the team's approach see-sawed back and forth.

Iwata

How did you handle such differing approaches?

Moriya

We sped up revealing it and had Ikuta-san and others try out parts of it. We would ask how it differed from what they had imagined, and then we would fix it. One conflict arose when, as programmers, we wanted to get rid of bugs. But the staff members who had played the old game said the bugs were fun! We were like, "What?!" (laughs)

Iwata

Yes, that is an area of conflict.

Moriya

It wouldn't be fun if your friends couldn't say, "Do you know about this?" So we left them in if they didn't cause any trouble and were beneficial.

Iwata

So you implemented them as you would specs, rather than treating them like bugs. It took some work and you had to go out of your way, but you preserved the spirit of the original.

Moriya

Yes. If something simply could not be allowed to stand, we begrudgingly fixed it, so some bugs don't appear, but we left in as many as we could, so people will grin over that.

Iwata

What other discrepancies did you solve from the viewpoint of programming?

Moriya

Problems arise when recreating the original Z-targeting mark5 in the stereoscopic space of the Nintendo 3DS system. When you lock on in the original, it looks like a person hiding behind another comes to the front, but in 3D, the perspective breaks down. So for the Nintendo 3DS system, we adjusted it so the mark becomes semitransparent when there's depth involved, so the visual sense of distance is preserved.5. Original Z-targeting mark: A mark that appears when the player presses the Z Button. Not only does the viewpoint shift to a view from directly behind Link™, but Link can also talk with characters at a distance and gain an advantage in battle by locking on to enemies. In The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time 3D, players press the L Button.

Aonuma

I didn't notice that problem until development. In 2D, it had been skillfully done so as to gloss over any discrepancies, but in 3D we had to replace it so it would fit well into the 3D environment.

Iwata

When a game's graphics change to 3D, a lot of new discrepancies arise, so you had to address those points as well.

Aonuma

Yes. It was hard enough just dealing with the Nintendo 3DS system's increased frame rate.66. Frame rate: The number of times in one second that the image on the screen is refreshed.

Moriya

Yeah. That was the hardest this time. The trouble that the original staff had experienced was visible in the program source code. For example, there were remains of frantic calculations written in it, like 10 + 1 + 2 – 5. It must have been really tight.

Iwata

It was not easy to change the frame rate of the software created in the past. Especially considering that the original game included different frame rates between the heavier and lighter processing parts.

Moriya

That's right. When there was a number assuming a processing delay, we held our heads in dismay!

Aonuma

Back then, we might assume a processing delay would occur, but we would work hard to find a way so that players wouldn't pick up on it. In particular, the battle against Ganon7 was sluggish.7. Ganon: A boss character that appears in The Legend of Zelda series.

Iwata

But that slightly heavy feeling made Ganon seem large and heavy.

Aonuma

That's right! If his movements were swift and sharp, it would be weird.

Shimizu

Recreating that is hard.

Tonooka

With regard to collision detection8 between Link and monsters, the original was 20 times in 1 second, but this time it's 30 times and the movement is smoother. But Ikuta-san said, "Isn't it more difficult than before?" I had tried to program it so the difficulty wouldn't change, but the more precise collision detection had changed the way it feels. So I was careful about such things to make sure it felt as similar to the original as possible.8. Collision detection: The range according to which the game determines that the player-character or an enemy has been hit.

Ikuta

Sorry, I didn't know the reason. I just felt like something was different.

Tonooka

I'm impressed that you noticed! (laughs)

Aonuma

That's right. You never forget what you learn with your body. Experience is important.

Iwata

Just like learning to ride a bicycle, once your fingers learn a game, they never forget how it feels.

Aonuma

I've always worked on The Legend of Zelda series, so each new installment should take the place of the previous ones in my memory, but when I play The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time, my memories from that time come back. Game memories are probably all packed away somewhere so when you play just a little, they all come back. That's why it's important that we make it so those memories and the new remade version perfectly coalesce.

"I've Got to Fix the Water Temple!"
Iwata

Aonuma-san, what was your motivation for making The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time 3D?

Aonuma

As I alluded to when I introduced myself earlier, I wanted to do something about the Water Temple. Everyone talks about it, so it's been a longstanding wish of mine these 13 years!

Iwata

No matter how much praise The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time has garnered, the Water Temple has always been an issue—like a bone caught in your throat for 13 years.

Aonuma

Yeah. The worst thing was thinking about how many people may have given up there. So this time, if we used the Nintendo 3DS system's two screens, I thought, "Link can put on and take off his Iron Boots in a flash!" So we were like, "Let's do it!"

Iwata

If you didn't, you'd have to listen to it your whole life! (laughs)

Aonuma

Yeah! That was my prime motivation. But when it came to understanding players' memories of the original game, each person on the development staff had his or her own thoughts, too, so it was hard finding the right balance for each issue. We set some priorities and tried to fix things that should be fixed.

Iwata

I suppose there were things you wanted to fix the first time around but couldn't.

Shimizu

What solved that splendidly this time was the touch screen. There are buttons in its four corners. You press them with your fingers. That had a direct effect on gameplay and now it's extremely comfortable.

Aonuma

Modern amenities granted my longstanding wish! (laughs) I was certain that  with two screens, changing items and checking the map would be much easier.

Shimizu

The Nintendo 64 system had six buttons, whereas the Nintendo 3DS system only has four. In order to solve the problem of not enough buttons, soon after development began, Grezzo formed a DS Touchscreen Testing Team.

Aonuma

They didn't waste a moment! They had begun work even before we had the specifications together.

Iwata

Tonooka-san, was it your idea to put buttons in the four corners?

Tonooka

Yes. The first thing that came to mind when I heard about the project was the difference between the upper and lower screens, so on the bullet train on the way back, I thought, "We should look into that," and thought about a way to do so with the Nintendo DS system. So the idea of putting buttons in the four corners of the touchscreen came from Shimizu-san and our staff.

Aonuma

When that went well, I was confident it could work.

Iwata

Ikuta-san, what did you think as The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time see-sawed back and forth between its old and new versions?

Ikuta

Since I was involved with the Mario Club, I was able to hear directly the thoughts and impressions of people today who played it. I examined what they said and my own thoughts from when I was immersed in it 13 years ago, and then I talked over possible changes with Grezzo, but the first thing they said was, "This schedule is impossible!" In the end, though, they kept making all the necessary corrections and improvements right up until the end.

Aonuma

That's right. They always pull through.

Ikuta

They really do. It's very reassuring. So when it came to the opinions that came out of the Mario Club, I think it's great that I was able to consider with Grezzo whether something was really necessary or whether we should leave it the way it was in the original.

Iwata

You didn't have a relationship in which one side gives orders and the other takes them. And since Grezzo had charge of one of our biggest titles, the whole staff knew they had to release it in a way that would gain the world's approval. It's great that even if they said, "We can't do it," you knew that they would.

Ikuta

Yes. In the latter half of development, I was like, "It's all in your hands!" (laughs) I knew they would handle it, and not just that they would do what I asked, but that it would come back with a little special Grezzo something. And that is apparent in the game. Even if I were watching the same demo scene, it was fresh, like I were seeing it for the first time, and I would think, "Was it like this before?"

Iwata

It has been reborn for today in such a way that even someone like you, who played the original a lot, is impressed.

Aonuma

Yes. It has to work in today's world, so I had to make sure every change was a pleasing one. While Grezzo valued the original, they also didn't hesitate to make changes, so they were a big help. Rather than us giving precise instructions, they came to us, saying, "Here's what we should do."

Iwata

I feel like what Grezzo thought the game should be like and what the original staff thought synced up perfectly. That was a good aspect of this project.

====Just Before Putting It on ROM

Iwata

Why do you at Grezzo think that of all the games out there The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time was so special?

Ishii

It is the representative polygon 3D game. I feel like it is a title in which energy and a challenging spirit exploded in a way that said, "This is what can be done!" As a series goes along, rules usually appear. But with The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time, there were no rules to making it.

Iwata

It is true that the Nintendo 64 version of The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time came along when video games were changing from 2D to 3D. Since the old 2D rules weren't applicable, everything was made from scratch. Everyone was groping their way forward in the dark, but for some reason there was an odd confidence and faith that they would definitely make it out into the light, and that spirit possessed the whole thing.

Ishii

Something I thought was particularly great with regard to the degree of completion in level design is how the developers didn't simply make maps, but calculated how it would look to Link standing there. In the early days of polygon 3D, it's quite a wonder that they would think of that.

Iwata

Aonuma-san, did you make precise calculations?

Aonuma

It would be cool if I could say yes, but… (laughs)

Iwata

You didn't make precise calculations, but you did try it over and over again to make it look just right.

Aonuma

Yes. I couldn't decide when to call it quits.

Iwata

Something I heard from the original developers that surprised me was how everyone was happy when the due date got pushed back. Usually, people are exhausted and think, "And so the marathon drags on…" But the team back then was having too much of a good time!

Aonuma

It was demanding, but fun.

Ishii

When you talk to creators of a title adored by fans, they usually say, "It was hard, but fun." That also applies to The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time.

Iwata

Tonooka-san, what do you think?

Tonooka

Well, when I received the old program, I thought that all of the creators must have been in high spirits. In the comments box of the source program, someone had written something like, "We got an extension. I'm worried about my bonus. But at least now we can make this." (laughs)

Iwata

Huh? Really?!

Tonooka

Yeah. (laughs) And that enthusiasm of the programmers back then inspired us.

Iwata

It would be hard to hold back after seeing that.

Tonooka

Absolutely. (laughs) So we really dedicated ourselves to it. And while it applies to the whole Legend of Zelda series, The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time feels handmade. Usually, programmers like to make a system and rules, but The Legend of Zelda isn't a game to quietly conform to those things. The source program itself feels handmade down to the finest details.

Iwata

It isn't systematic. It's a conglomeration of elements made by individual craftsmen, but a conglomeration that hangs together as a total.

Tonooka

That's right. When players get their hands on it, the creators' passion comes across. That may be why players rate it so highly.

Iwata

Moriya-san, what did you think about The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time?

Moriya

Unfortunately, I didn't play the original when it came out, but as I played it during development, I thought, "This game is an adventure!" As I was playing, I suddenly recalled the mountain out back where I used to play as a child, so I think other players must have similar experiences. I felt like I knew why the game is so loved.

Iwata

I see. This project began as remaking The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time, but in the end, we put in many elements tailored specifically for the Nintendo 3DS system. The first one that comes to mind is the ability to  control where Link is looking using the gyro sensor built into the system. Why did you put that in?

Tonooka

Before Nintendo Conference 20109, Aonuma-san said we had to use the gyro sensor.

Shimizu

About one week before, right?9. Nintendo Conference 2010: An exhibition for professionals in the gaming industry held at Makuhari Messe in Japan on September 29, 2010.

Iwata

About one week beforehand? Aonuma-san, what exactly was it you wanted to do with the gyro sensor?

Aonuma

I didn't want to move the camera with the analog control. This has something to do with changing the line of sight by pointing in The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess10 for the Wii console. When you push an analog stick, we can make it both ways so that the camera moves up or down, so there are two answers, but with a gyro sensor, they become one. That is something (Shigeru) Miyamoto-san has been saying he wants to fix for some time now.10. The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess: An action-adventure game released for the Wii™ console and the Nintendo GameCube™ system in December 2006.

Shimizu

Well, there are times when the gyro sensor alone isn't enough, so we also made it so you can use the analog control. Then Moriya-san made it so you can switch back and forth between the gyro sensor and analog control seamlessly. You can choose on or off.

Aonuma

But then in the end, Miyamoto-san…

Ikuta

Right. He gave us a little push. (laughs)

Aonuma

At first, you could only use the gyro sensor to control line of sight in first-person mode when using items and moving the camera from Link's point of view. But at the end of development, two weeks before making the final ROM, right at the last minute, Miyamoto-san said, "Can't you use the gyro sensor to change the line of sight at normal times when you're just moving Link around?"

Iwata

Huh? But that affects every single scene! That's not something you say before you create the master ROM.

Moriya

Yeah. Everyone reacted the same way at first. (laughs)

Aonuma

But we tried doing what we could, and it turned out so that when Link is moving around without using L-targeting to lock on, the camera follows him around, and you can use the gyro sensor to look around.

Moriya

First, we made it with the gyro sensor wide open so you could look around, and from there on we trimmed away what didn't work. We had to reach a conclusion in a mere three days.

Aonuma

Right, we might have fallen behind with the ROM. I felt like Miyamoto-san was testing us.

Tonooka

But when we first got that e-mail from Aonuma-san, it was clear that he wanted to do it, so we thought, "I bet Aonuma-san wants to do this." (laughs)

Aonuma

Huh? Oh, sorry. That is somewhat true. (laughs) I myself had been thinking about allowing players to  move the camera using a gyro sensor while Link was moving, but I thought it was impossible since we were so close to putting it on the ROM.

Iwata

But Miyamoto-san suggested what you couldn't say yourself, so you asked as if it were a fortunate thing?

Aonuma

Uh…yeah. We were accomplices. (laughs)

Iwata

Being able to look around adds a surprising amount of reality to the gameworld.

Aonuma

It's like the world of Hyrule is spread out in 360 degrees and you're peering into the screen at it. I'm really glad we could put that in!

One Mistake is Too Many
Iwata

What else was designed specifically for the Nintendo 3DS system?

Shimizu

I've always wondered if many people were really able to play the Nintendo 64 version of The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time all the way through to the end. For example, a lot of people may have got stuck on the Water Temple and played no further.

Aonuma

Gah! Stop talking about it! (laughs)

Everyone

(laughs)

Shimizu

For that reason, I wanted to put in a help function like in the New Super Mario Bros. Wii11 and Super Mario Galaxy 212 games, and we ended up putting in  Hint Movies.11. New Super Mario Bros.™ Wii: An action game released for the Wii console in 2009.

12. Super Mario Galaxy™ 2: An action game released for the Wii console in 2010.

Iwata

Helping players who get stuck was a goal from the start.

Shimizu

Yes. We give solid hints so beginners can play to the end. And as something specifically for the Nintendo 3DS system, the Navi System kicks in every 60 minutes. Every 60 minutes, the fairy Navi asks if you want to take a break.

But Aonuma-san and I battled, or rather debated, this. Until now in the Legend of Zelda games, if you made a mistake saving, you couldn't take it back, so the games have tended to discourage saving.

Aonuma

Rather, the default was set to "Don't save" even if you chose save.

Shimizu

I asked Aonuma-san if that was really necessary anymore. I didn't get an e-mail reply for a long time, and then after about half a day had passed, I got a reply saying it might be all right. Then I suggested to Grezzo that we make "Save" the default.

Aonuma

I think Ishii-san questioned that as well.

Ishii

Yeah. But I just now learned the background. I had made games in which you have to be careful about saving before, so I made sure to check on that.

Iwata

If you can save by repeatedly punching buttons, you may end up doing something you can't take back.

Ishii

Right. A game's save data is the player's time and memories, so it isn't something that should be easy to overwrite or erase. I was aware that saving is something you must treat with care.

Shimizu

But the Nintendo 3DS system is a portable device you carry around, so for a long time I discussed with Aonuma-san what would be the greater tragedy, losing game time because the battery ran out and you hadn't saved or saving by accident.

Aonuma

These days, everyone is busy, so they usually play video games by stringing together little bits of time. I thought players today would be sadder if they lost game progress they had played but hadn't saved. And we adopt a system whereby saving via repeatedly punching buttons isn't possible, so there's no fear of making a mistake in saving that way.

Moriya

Then all kinds of ideas came up—like a system for leading players to hints when they get stuck—and it quickly shaped up nicely.

Iwata

Ikuta-san, what did everyone in the Mario Club say about the final game?

Ikuta

Most members of Mario Club had not played the original game 13 years ago and were playing it for the first time, but many of them said they got stuck at places we had never imagined they would. They said, "I don't have the necessary information!" and "I have no idea where I'm supposed to go or what I'm supposed to do next!" and "Is this all right?" That led to a lot of new discoveries.

Shimizu

The Mario Club members said they couldn't see the hints easily. I told them that if you don't have some trouble, it won't stay with you as a memory—that there's a point to it not being easy! A hint can't simply give the answer.

Ikuta

Right. Hints have to be just enough to point you in the right direction.

Iwata

When you solve a puzzle in The Legend of Zelda games, you think, "I am so smart!" We mustn't take that away from the fans!

Aonuma

But when you can't solve a puzzle no matter what, you give up and want an answer. So we redid the Hint Movies over and over as we figured out where to cut them off. And you can't see the Hint Movies unless you go to a certain rock, for example. It wouldn't make for a memory if you could see them right away.

Ikuta

Sometimes we didn't think we should show the last mere fraction of a second and left it out of the Hint Movie. In the end, members playing it for the first time said they could play to the end because of the Hint Movies, so it paid off. I think newcomers will be able to play the adventure to the end without much frustration. We also adjusted the Master Quest13 at the very, very end.13. Master Quest: The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time 3D includes the Master Quest, in which the dungeons and puzzles are different than in the main game. It is unlocked for play after completion of the main game.

Aonuma

People who play the Master Quest are looking for something formidable. But I didn't think it would be that challenging if it were the same as in the original, so Link takes double damage. The Mario Club loved that.

Iwata

The feeling of achievement, like only you can solve it, is different.

Aonuma

Right. And the world of the Master Quest is a mirror reflection of the main game, so if you go somewhere thinking you've already figured it out once so it'll be easy, you might be out of the game simply by falling off a cliff! You're like, "What?! That's a game over?!" (laughs)

Ikuta

Yeah. In the Master Quest, one mistake is too many!

Tonooka

You can clear a lot of games today just playing them casually, so it feels nice to have to go back and heal before a boss battle. The Master Quest is extremely tense and rewarding.

Shimizu

One time, I got a phone call from Ikuta-san saying she couldn't clear the very first dungeon. (laughs)

Ikuta

I lost over ten times in the dungeon inside the Great Deku Tree.

Iwata

Really? (laughs)

Tonooka

Once you beat the Master Quest, you can brag like you haven't in quite some time!

Iwata

I suppose it has been awhile since we released something so difficult.

Aonuma

We have tended to lower the difficulty of recent Zelda games because we want everyone to reach the goal, like by placing healing items right before a boss battle and so on. But Miyamoto-san has been complaining that without anything to get stuck on, the games don't stick with you as memories.

Iwata

The reason we originally put the Super Guides in New Super Mario Bros. Wii wasn't so anyone could easily beat the game, but on the contrary, it was so that even if we made it difficult but rewarding, lots of people could play it to the end.

Aonuma

Right. This game doesn't lower the difficulty level of the original, but it does offer guidance in the form of Hint Movies so everyone can reach the goal.

Shimizu

The main game has hints and the Master Quest is extra challenging. Quite a good balance for a product to have, wouldn't you say?

Aonuma

The main game is the main game and the Master Quest is the Master Quest. Clearing each one results in a completely different memory. Being able to brag is important. I realized all over again how important that is for a video game.

The Miracle
Iwata

Ishii-san, what is your sense of accomplishment like now that you have completed The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time 3D?

Ishii

This is self-praise, but I think everyone at Grezzo really did a great job. The staff found it immensely rewarding and the expressions on their faces when they were done told the whole story. I think that is because it was both hard and fun. I feel like the biggest nourishment this time was experiencing that same feeling that the original staff had.

Iwata

Grezzo proposed a lot for this game.

Ishii

I often tell the staff members that we don't make a game because someone tells us to, rather we look ahead and make preparations. If we didn't have that attitude, we would lose our vision of what we should do further down the line.

Iwata

We did ask you to take on this challenge because we expected much from you, and were certain of your attitude toward making video games and of each of your individual strengths, but I feel like you gave it something even more.

Ishii

Thank you. When I struck out on my own with Grezzo, I was extremely interested in the high quality of Nintendo's games. I feel like I got a hint of what lies behind that by working on this game with Miyamoto-san, Aonuma-san, Shimizu-san, Haruhana-san and Takizawa-san.

Iwata

What kind of hint?

Ishii

The overall picture of something only becomes clear when many people look at it. Many at Nintendo adopt that viewpoint. What's more, everyone revises and expands on each other's input and views it from the X axis, so to speak. And I thought it was incredibly interesting how someone like Miyamoto-san adds to that by looking at it from the Y axis.

Iwata

Do you mean like, Miyamoto-san's bird's-eye view?

Ishii

Yes. When Miyamoto-san was playing the game, he said, "This will make the players happy or not..." That simple statement made a great impression on me. Miyamoto-san has a special strength for seeing things, for changing his standpoint, its height and breadth.

Iwata

I also think Miyamoto-san's capacity for changing his viewpoint is amazing. The speed with which he finds a new viewpoint and the sheer number of means at his disposal is astounding.

Ishii

This time, I was able to see up close how Miyamoto-san's point of view raises the entire Nintendo staff to a higher level. Something incredible about Nintendo is how so many people work from a director's point of view, saying, "How high can I raise this to the extent within my view?" So we at Grezzo couldn't simply let you show us up!

Iwata

I see. How about you, Tonooka-san?

Tonooka

When it first came to developing a game for hardware that hadn't been out in the world yet, I experienced a mixture of excitement and unease. But as I talked with Miyamoto-san, Aonuma-san, Shimizu-san and Ikuta-san, my unease slipped away. Through talking with everyone, I was able to face everyone's memories of the old game and solve each issue one by one.

Iwata

You wear a pleasant expression that says you overcame something. How about you Moriya-san?

Moriya

The last year has been one mad scramble. I think the staff did a great job and I think the enthusiasm of the original developers came across through the old source code.

There were about seven programs for one boss. With regard to incomplete portions, someone had written a note saying, "I'm relying on…whoever's next." I wonder who that meant? (laughs)

Iwata

Huh? Was there really such a note? Like a time capsule, the source code contains feelings from the past.

Aonuma

It's less a time capsule than a curse! (laughs)

Everyone

(laughs)

Moriya

When the staff members saw the source code, they got pumped up and development fell into a nice groove. Something that really pleased me was when we submitted the first ROM and everyone at Nintendo said, "Ahh, this is The Legend of Zelda!" That helped me. Because of that, I thought, "This is the right way to go!" and felt at ease.

Aonuma

I was surprised then at how much you could do in such a short period of time.

Ishii

Aonuma-san, when we saw everyone enjoying the ROM, it really encouraged us. Seeing those happy expressions on the faces of the original staff members strengthened our feeling that we could make a good version of The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time for the Nintendo 3DS system.

Iwata

I see. How about you, Ikuta-san?

Ikuta

I don't think releasing the exact same game would have been very pleasing—to me, either. My own feelings and environment have changed over the years, so if I were to play the same game, it wouldn't move me the same way.

But with this game, it's like the same feeling from before is in my hands but as something new. I want as many people as possible to experience that.

Iwata

That's right. If anyone thinks of this as a simple port, I would like to ask that they take a second look. As one in the Tokyo Software Development Department, one who in some ways was closest to Grezzo, how did it look to you, Shimizu-san?

Shimizu

The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time is one of my favorite three games, so my first feeling was, "I've got to do something!" As I played through, I thought that Grezzo truly had done a fine job complementing my memories of the game.

The game has lots of sub-events, so it would be a shame to just look at the Hint Movies and race to the end. I hope players will flounder around a bit as they move forward.

And the Nintendo 3DS system has the Game Memo function that you can use anywhere—perfect for this game. If you think you might forget something, you can press the HOME button and take notes as you play.

Iwata

All right. How about you, Aonuma-san?

Aonuma

I really feel as if everyone helped me out this time. Grezzo's desire to do an ever better job came across every day and we developed a relationship of trust, so we could make all sorts of unreasonable demands!

And Shimizu-san did a lot to help in Tokyo and Ikuta-san made solid reports on the situation at Grezzo and thought together with me about what we should do. That made my work as producer easier and more rewarding each day, so it was enjoyable.

I'm also really pleased to hear the staff from Grezzo say that they could sense the feelings of the original staff. I want to thank them for making the game in consideration of our feelings. I'm surprised they could.

Iwata

The original team plunged ahead into impenetrable darkness 13 years ago with nothing but confidence, youth and enthusiasm, and that willpower, through the comments in the source code, "possessed" the developers at Grezzo.

As a result, the original team accepted Grezzo's output and you passed ideas back and forth, saying, "It would be like this now." Seeing that, I felt like it was a kind of miracle.

Aonuma

I do think it's a miracle.

Iwata

The game born of that miracle is not just a port. It is The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time reborn today at an even higher level! While I may be going a little overboard, I feel like The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time is a miracle that was meant for the Nintendo 3DS system all along!

Aonuma

Yes, it was destined to turn out this way 13 years later.

Tonooka

Maybe that's what was meant in the source code by "whoever's next." (laughs)

Aonuma

Right. It wasn't a curse, but a prophecy! (laughs)

Everyone

(laughs)

Iwata

I'm glad we could have so much fun talking today. Thank you.

Mr. Shigeru Miyamoto
This interview solely features Shigeru Miyamoto.

Ganon's Castle as the Only Setting
Miyamoto

(sitting down) Am I the only one today?

Iwata

Yes, today it's just you.

Miyamoto

Oh. I have no idea what everyone else said, though.

Iwata

You're busy preparing for E31, so you couldn't find time to participate together. As we go along, I will tell you what the original developers said in your absence. Thank you for coming.

Miyamoto

No problem.1. E3 (Electronic Entertainment Expo): A video game trade show usually held once a year in Los Angeles. In 2011, E3 was held for three days starting June 7.

Iwata

Today I'd like to look back with you at The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time. The development period for it was far longer than for other games at the time and the release date got pushed back more than once.

Miyamoto

The original plan was to release Super Mario 642 simultaneously with the Nintendo 64 system and to bring out The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time3 the following year for Christmas.

Iwata

It was scheduled to go on sale at the end of 1997.

Miyamoto

Yes. So it was almost one year late.2. Super Mario 64™: The first 3D action game in the Super Mario Bros.™ series. Released simultaneously with the Nintendo 64™ system in June 1996.

3. The Legend of Zelda™: Ocarina of Time™: An action-adventure game released for the Nintendo 64 system in November 1998.

Iwata

Development took about two and a half years. It must have been terribly hard on the developers, but they all said it was fun!

Miyamoto

Oh, they said that?

Iwata

Yes. They even said "All right!" when the release was delayed! (laughs)

Miyamoto

Really? (laughs)

Iwata

Everyone talked about it so happily that I wondered if over the last 13 years they've simply forgotten all the hardship. (laughs)

Miyamoto

(laughs)

Iwata

How was it for you?

Miyamoto

It wasn't hard for me either. Developers generally like it when the deadline gets pushed back anyway.

Iwata

Everyone did say, "Now we can polish that up!" and "Now we can fix that one spot better!" when we got the extension.

Miyamoto

Right. Up until the very end, we were saying, "This needs more work and that needs more work."

Iwata

I hate to say it, but if the development period goes on an extra year, it can't all be fun.

Miyamoto

You're right about that! (laughs)

Iwata

But everyone says it was fun.

Miyamoto

Yeah. Well, maybe it's like asking, "Are you happy when the date of a test gets put off one week?"

Iwata

Ah, I see. (laughs) Because when it comes to studying for a test, you can never study enough.

Miyamoto

That's right. You may think, "I'm happy I can study more," or you may think, "Now I have to study next week." But if you've got the energy to keep studying hard, you're happy the exam got pushed back. (laughs)

Iwata

How did you view the project when that long development spanning two and a half years began? Everyone was just plunging ahead into unknown territory, right?

Miyamoto

That's right. Back then, no one knew which direction the overall game industry was heading.

Iwata

That's true now, too. (laughs)

Miyamoto

I suppose so. (laughs) But back then, for example, if you had a big three-billion-yen project, no one knew if it would end up costing five billion, or two billion.

Iwata

Yes, you couldn't see ahead back then. I wonder how we ever managed! (laughs)

Miyamoto

No kidding! (laughs) The only person who knew was the person who budgets the scheduled projects. But that person can't guarantee anything when it comes to how fun the game is.

Iwata

Uh-huh.

Miyamoto

So Ocarina of Time was one of the very first of such games, I mean, it was a huge project of making game in 3D polygon without knowing the final outcome from the beginning.

Iwata

It was bigger in scale than anything you had previously experienced.

Miyamoto

I did, though, have experience building up games one by one.

Iwata

You had made game after game since even before the Famicom system.

Miyamoto

And aside from me, (Toshio) Iwawaki-san and (Kazuaki) Morita-san at SRD4 had built up programming experience making 3D graphics for Super Mario 64 and other games. And I think (Yoshiaki) Koizumi-san and those guys had a rough idea of how they wanted to make The Legend of Zelda in 3D based on their experience developing Super Mario 64.

Iwata

Yes, that's right.4. SRD Co., Ltd.: A company established in 1979 that contracts to develop video game software programs and develops and sells CAD packages. The head office is in Osaka, and their Kyoto office is inside the Nintendo head office.

Miyamoto

But no one knew how big in scale it would become.

Iwata

Even you didn't know how big it would be, but began working on it.

Miyamoto

Yes. And I am not talking about budget or development period that I just touched on, but because the memory size we could use with the Nintendo 64 system was fixed, I was not able to tell how vast a game could be developed within that capacity.

Iwata

Back then, the limits of the hardware weren't that high, so you could only do so much.

Miyamoto

Right. So rather than start by determining a story, we started by making the system.

Iwata

That's how you always do things. I remember you saying you couldn't make a Zelda game until you had become familiar with the new hardware.

Miyamoto

Yes, I said that. I had already made Super Mario 64 and Star Fox 645 for the Nintendo 64 system, so I had built up a certain degree of know-how.5. Star Fox 64™: A 3D shooting game released for the Nintendo 64 system in April 1997.

Iwata

Like the proprietary camera system and real-time movies.

Miyamoto

Right. And we had to make something big, but with limited memory. So, for example, suppose certain data were structured into an "ABC" set, "ACD" set and "ADF" set. When each set exists independently, you can read them all at once, but...

Iwata

With each of them independent, they take up a lot of memory space.

Miyamoto

Right. So I would have "A" stay there all the time and the other data switch in and out. If you only change what you have to, the memory is more efficient and the data reads more quickly. In other words, you make good use of the characteristics of the ROM.

We put constructing the system first, and since we were going to determine the story in line with the system's capacity, at first I thought only having Ganon's Castle might be enough.

Iwata

Huh? At first you imagined Ganon's Castle as the only setting?

Miyamoto

Yes. I thought about putting in all kinds of adventures into the different rooms, like making a dark meadow or an ocean—like in Princess Peach's Castle in Super Mario 64.

Iwata

You imagined lots of rooms in Ganon's Castle, with various worlds all connected.

Miyamoto

Yes. In the worst case, Link wouldn't have been able to go outside the castle! (laughs)

Many Characters, Many Roles
Iwata

Hearing that Link may not have been able to leave the castle is quite surprising. Was one reason you thought about making Ganon's Castle the only setting because early on in development you didn't think you would be able to create a huge area like Hyrule Field?

Miyamoto

Yes. I thought so from the perspective of the hardware's processing abilities while making Super Mario 64. At first, I didn't mind making the game complete within a single building as long as I got to make Link in 3D. In other words, it might have turned out like Zelda II: The Adventure of Link.66. Zelda II™: The Adventure of Link™: An action-adventure game released for the Family Computer Disk System in January 1987.

Iwata

Koizumi-san did say that you were experimenting with a polygon version of Zelda II: The Adventure of Link for the Super Famicom system.

Miyamoto

That's right. Partially because of that, I started making it with the idea that Ganon's Castle might be enough. For example, there's a room in which you fight Phantom Ganon after he rides a horse out of a picture.

Iwata

Yeah. The boss battle in the Forest Temple.

Miyamoto

That's a glimpse of an idea that I had started making during the time that I was saying to the others, "At the very least, it'll be like this."

Iwata

Oh, okay. Now that you mention it, I can see that. Because the fight against Phantom Ganon unfolds inside a room. By the way, one early task was chanbara-style (theatrical Japanese style) sword-fighting. (Toru) Osawa-san told me that.

Miyamoto

That's right. I wondered if we could have one-on-one battles and started thinking up fragments like the battle against Phantom Ganon early on in development, and I tested controls for having Link swing his sword in different directions.

Iwata

You were making the game as if putting together a puzzle.

Miyamoto

Yeah. And as we were making it, we were able to have Link walk across a broad landform like grassland.

Iwata

Did you make that broad landform because you wanted Link to ride a horse?

Miyamoto

Yeah. Koizumi-san made the horse. But making a broad landform that you could ride a horse across weighed down the processing, so we took it out for a while. And after awhile I returned to work with the production team and launched a huge campaign to regain the grassland! (laughs)

Iwata

Right. (laughs)

Miyamoto

We started by testing whether we could have two horses out at once. We thought if we could do that, then we could make other forms of play for that grassland. It went well, so we made a demo video with two horses. We showed that at Nintendo Space World7, and I was like, "Now that we've shown this, there's no backing out!" (laughs)

Iwata

You forced your own hand! (laughs)

Miyamoto

Yeah. (laughs)7. Nintendo Space World: A video game trade show (in Japan) once held by Nintendo. The demo video with two horses for The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time was shown at Nintendo Space World 1997.

Iwata

Also, you were the one who really wanted to show Young Link, right?

Miyamoto

Yes. The work was really piling up, but I said I wanted to show Young Link. I think that caused the other developers a bit of a trouble. (laughs)

Iwata

Yes, it seems that it did! (laughs)

Miyamoto

But when I saw Adult Link that Koizumi-san had made, it was cool, but I said, "I don't want to make this without Young Link!" Then we tested whether we could use both Adult and Young Link.

Iwata

Koizumi-san tinkered with the system and you were able to use Adult Link's motions for Young Link as well.

Miyamoto

Right. Thanks to that, we could also have Young Link.

Iwata

Why were you so persistent on Young Link?

Miyamoto

Link is a boy. In the first game, The Legend of Zelda8, he was about 12 years old. In Zelda II: The Adventure of Link, he was about 16, but I never wanted to make him just another cool hero. Until The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time, Link was a playful and childish character.8. The Legend of Zelda™: An action-adventure game released simultaneously with the Family Computer Disk System in February 1986.

Iwata

But it seems that when you were making The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time, Koizumi-san's wife asked him why Nintendo didn't have any handsome characters, so he made Link good-looking. I heard that from Koizumi-san himself. (laughs)

Miyamoto

That's right. (laughs) But I had worked on all the games since the first one, and I thought that if we made him too cool, he wouldn't be Link anymore.

On the other hand, I did want Link to be somewhat cool, so we decided to have both Adult and Young Link. He doesn't just grow from the point of view of stats—as in an RPG—but actually grows up in appearance. When we did that, then all sorts of ideas bubbled up.

Iwata

More ideas sprang up than when you had just been basing the game around Adult Link.

Miyamoto

Yes. When we decided to handle Link growing up from a 9-year-old child to a more mature 16-year-old, I wanted lots of characters to fulfill various roles. For example, Kaepora Gaebora is a grandfather figure who gives Link all kinds of advice and looks out for him. And since Link is a boy, I wanted girls besides Princess Zelda to show up.

Iwata

And that's why Saria and Malon are there.

Miyamoto

Right. Also, Link's archenemy is Ganon, so I thought they should meet once when he's a child.

Iwata

So there's that scene at the beginning where Link has a nightmare.

Miyamoto

Yes. That connects to the courtyard scene. The innocent eyes of a child are able to see through to the truth, so Young Link knows instinctively that Ganon is a bad guy. When Adult Link meets him again, and Ganon says he's that boy from years before, it really hits you.

Iwata

It sure does. (laughs)

Miyamoto

You think to yourself, "That's right. I'm that child from before." Putting in that scene was really fun for me.

Iwata

You make games based around functions, so you don't often talk about story or dramatic interpretation, but I feel like The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time may have been an exception.

Miyamoto

But while making it, I noticed that I didn't want to tell a story so much as I wanted to have a lot of people appear around the main character and portray their relationships. Some years back, a television show called Twin Peaks9 was popular. When I saw that, the most interesting thing wasn't the ins and outs of the story, but what kinds of characters appeared.

Iwata

Oh, (Takashi) Tezuka-san said the same thing in our session of "Iwata Asks" over The Legend of Zelda: Spirit Tracks.10

Miyamoto

Oh, he did?

Iwata

Tezuka-san told the staff of The Legend of Zelda: Link's Awakening11 that he wanted them to have a bunch of suspicious characters appear like in Twin Peaks.9. Twin Peaks: A television series broadcast in America from 1990 to 1991. It was broadcast in Japan in 1991.

10. The Legend of Zelda™: Spirit Tracks: An action-adventure game released for the Nintendo DS system in December 2009.

11. The Legend of Zelda™: Link's Awakening™: The first game in The Legend of Zelda series for the Game Boy™ system released in June 1993. In December 1998, the remake The Legend of Zelda: Link's Awakening DX was released for the Game Boy Color system. The Legend of Zelda: Link's Awakening DX became available for download from the Nintendo eShop application on June 8, 2011.

Miyamoto

That's right. I think those suspicious and odd characters alone are interesting. I'm more interested in their presence than who is whose cousin and whose parents were sworn enemies way back when.

Iwata

You're not too interested in the characters' backgrounds. (laughs)

Miyamoto

Right. What's important is what role that person plays and how they contribute to portraying the main character.

Iwata

Yes. You don't want to tell a story so much as you have an interest in how the characters in their roles function to present the main character. It's like you to think about a game from the point of view of how things function.

Miyamoto

Osawa-san, the script director, made lots of suggestions to me saying, "How about a character that functions like this?" Koizumi-san and (Yoshiki) Haruhana-san quickly designed those characters' visible forms, and I helped make them, too. So even when it comes to the Ocarina of Time, I hardly ever talked about the story.

Iwata

(Eiji) Aonuma-san said the same thing. He said that while a lot of people say they like the epic story, on the level of the script, the story isn't actually that epic. It feels epic because everything you experience within the game is added to the story.

Miyamoto

That's right. The experience players have encountering people in the gameworld builds up and comes to feels like a story.

Iwata

Grappling with the puzzles is another kind of experience.

Miyamoto

Yes, I think so.

Everyone Loves Horses
Iwata

When you make a Zelda game, how do you think about the story?

Miyamoto

The stories in The Legend of Zelda may not match up as the series progresses. We actually expend a lot of time trying to make them match up, though. It would make things a lot easier if the players said, "Oh, that doesn't really matter." (laughs)

Iwata

(laughs) You would rather spend your energy making game elements rather than the story.

Miyamoto

That's right. Sometimes people ask whether Yoshi is a boy or a girl. If I answer, "Probably a boy," then they say, "So a boy is laying eggs?" (laughs)

Iwata

(laughs)

Miyamoto

But the moment I say Yoshi lays eggs so Yoshi must be a girl, they'll say, "Then Yoshi's voice needs to sound more like a girl's!" But I want to make video games without having to worry about such background info. Take the animated series Popeye12, for example. In old cartoons like those, the roles of the characters were different every time.

Iwata

The setting changed every time.12. Popeye: An American animated television series. The story was a comedy based around the main character Popeye, his girlfriend Olive, and his rival Bluto. The series was broadcast in Japan from 1959 to 1965.

Miyamoto

Even though the setting was different each time, the characters you knew and loved would come out and perform. Well, the Mario games are set up like that. It would be much easier if we could use any setting in The Legend of Zelda while preserving the essential relationship between Link, Ganon and Zelda.

Iwata

But when a series builds up for as long as it has, that isn't easy.

Miyamoto

Right. Especially when it comes to a story of the Zelda games, we can't do anything disappointing, so with the Ocarina of Time, we worked on the story with reference to the past games in the series.

Iwata

With regard to using character function to portray the main character, which was something you paid great attention to, cut scenes also played an important role.

Miyamoto

That's right. Processing them in real time was a new challenge that began with Star Fox 64.

Iwata

I hear you tell people that making cut scenes is all right, but you have to be able to fix them right up through the day before game completion. (laughs)

Miyamoto

Yes. (laughs) It's a characteristic of mine to change the game right before final delivery.

Iwata

Is that a characteristic? (laughs)

Miyamoto

Of course! (laughs) Pre-rendered movies and the way I make games just don't mix.

Iwata

Back then, it was popular to use pre-rendered movies—videos prepared ahead of time for play at determined spots in the game—but once you made them, you couldn't easily correct them later.

Miyamoto

If I wanted to fix something, they might tell me, "We'll need at least a month to fix that." In the worst case, they might say, "The movie's done, so it can't be changed."

Iwata

Yeah. (laughs)

Miyamoto

I'd be like, "Huh? This would make it more fun, so why can't we fix it?" And they'd say, "Because you can't change the movies." I'd think, "But what's more important to fans, the movies or how fun it is?" That's why I adopted a method of processing the movies in real time.

Iwata

(Takumi) Kawagoe-san was in charge of the real-time movies, right?

Miyamoto

Kawagoe-san was a programmer, but he's a big movie fan, so he was really interested in film editing and dramatic scenes. I asked him to make some full-blown video cuts like for theatrical movies. I suppose that was about when we made storyboard paper just for Nintendo.

Iwata

Did you draw storyboards yourself?

Miyamoto

Not much. I can draw simple thumbnails, but for the most part I reviewed the actual thing and said, "It should be more like this," and "Show me that." Take for example, that first boss battle, against Gohma.

Iwata

That's in the dungeon called Inside the Deku Tree.

Miyamoto

Yes. When you go in the room with that boss, Gohma is hanging from the ceiling, so you wouldn't usually notice, even if there was a rustling sound. So first we position the camera from the viewpoint of Gohma looking down at Link, then we have the camera close in on Link showing fear, then we change the viewpoint so it is from Link looking up toward Gohma.

Iwata

That way you learn where Gohma is.

Miyamoto

We used cut scenes like that to explain things like where bosses were positioned, adopting methods only possible in video games. Using movies was incredibly new and very fun.

Iwata

I heard from Osawa-san that you put a lot of effort into the cut scene when the horse jumps over the fence at Lon Lon Ranch.

Miyamoto

Well, rather than putting in lots of effort, I'd say we were pushing the new hardware, the Nintendo 64 system, as far as it would go. I wanted to make it look a little cool without looking strange. If you can leave the ranch wherever you want, rough parts of the ranch may stand out, so we thought of forcing in a special event.

Iwata

You forced that in? (laughs)

Miyamoto

Yes. You know that guy Ingo who's at the ranch?

Iwata

Yes. He doesn't have a very nice personality and looks a bit like Luigi. (laughs)

Miyamoto

That's right. (laughs) Ingo and Link have a horse race. If Link wins, he can get the horse named Epona, but Ingo closes the entrance gate to the ranch.

Iwata

Then you jump over the fence on Epona and escape.

Miyamoto

That's right. At first, I imagined a scene in which Ingo, in a frenzy, sets the ranch on fire, so Epona jumps against a backdrop of flames, but then someone said, "What about when Link comes back to the ranch later?" So I gave that up. (laughs)

Iwata

(laughs) Earlier, I asked about why you were so intent on showing Young Link. Why did you focus so much on having a horse in the game?

Miyamoto

I suppose because we grew up with (cowboy) Westerns.

Iwata

Westerns used to be quite popular on television.

Miyamoto

They had a big influence over me. And the drinking spouts at elementary school always had aluminum cups. We used to flip those over and knock them against the concrete in rhythm so it sounded like a horse galloping. (laughs)

Iwata

That's right. We did. (laughs)

Miyamoto

That's how much we all loved horses when we were kids. That rhythm is ingrained into us. That's why I really wanted to make it so you can ride a horse in the Ocarina of Time.

The Enjoyment of Turning 2D to 3D
Iwata

As I talked with the original staff of the Ocarina of Time over the course of two conversations, I kept wondering why they have such a good time talking about it. I sensed that perhaps they enjoyed seeing the game improve each day.

Miyamoto

Yeah.

Iwata

And talking with you today, I learned that within a short period of time, you discovered a lot of new things. It was a concentrated period of successive discoveries whereby you thought, "Oh, I see!" and "Oh, I just need to do it like this!"

Miyamoto

That's why every day was fun.

Iwata

When each day brings new discoveries and they're highly concentrated like that, it is fun for the person making it, no matter how physically demanding or how long you have to work.

Miyamoto

That's right. On the other hand, it isn't always fun when you're deftly turning out a game using methods you're used to.

Iwata

Right.

Miyamoto

When you change something from 2D to 3D, though, you discover a lot of things, like certain things become no fun anymore. For example, cutting the grass was something that first appeared in The Legend of Zelda series with The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past.13 When we made it, it was surprisingly fun. Some people started talking about how this was a video game that you cut grass using Spin Attack! (laughs)

Iwata

(laughs)13. The Legend of Zelda™: A Link to the Past™: An action-adventure game released for the Super Famicom system in November 1991.

Miyamoto

But when we went to bring that element of cutting grass into The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time 3D, it was like we were under orders to do so.

Iwata

It's not like you could be certain that when you changed cutting grass into 3D it would be even more fun.

Miyamoto

Right. Just when we were saying that simply remaking that old topic in a prettier way wasn't particularly impressive, we started talking about how it was weird that you could cut the grass but couldn't cut the signs.

Iwata

So you asked SRD's Morita-san to take care of that. He told me about it. (laughs)

Miyamoto

You heard? (laughs) We became able to cut the signs, but then we knew people would cut them in different directions. When I said that the signs should cut diagonally when Link swings diagonally, everyone froze up and said, "We can't check exactly where they cut it!"

Iwata

You wanted the signs to cut exactly where you struck them?

Miyamoto

Even with the Nintendo 64 system, that would be impossible. So I said, "No, we just have to make several different cut patterns."

Iwata

Then you made it cut into six pieces like a wheel of cheese.

Miyamoto

Right. Then you could cut the signs from different directions, but then when a piece flew off and landed in the pond, since we hadn't taken care of collision detection when it hit against water, it would just fall to the bottom with a clack.

Iwata

It would be weird if it clacked against water.

Miyamoto

Generally, you would just decide not to put a sign by the water, but Morita-san made it so the piece would float on the water.

Iwata

And it drifts away.

Miyamoto

Yeah. Morita-san made that because he was certain the players would love it. Then we just wanted to put more signs by the water!

Iwata

Haruhana-san described that as hospitality that attacks.

Miyamoto

Oh…

Iwata

In other words, the game is very hospitable, but with a certain roughness. That hospitality is everywhere, waiting anxiously for someone to enter so it can pounce!

Miyamoto

Like in a haunted mansion.

Iwata

Right. It attacks like in a haunted mansion. (laughs)

Miyamoto

I think "hospitality" is the right word, too. For example, we had used the idea of grabbing onto a chicken and flying with the game on the Super Famicom system. I thought it would be weird if the graphics were more realistic, but when we made it, I was happy to see that it fit perfectly. I realized that that kind of things are more fun in 3D space, so all of a sudden I said, "Let's make the landforms more three-dimensional."

Iwata

You changed the landforms for chicken-flying.

Miyamoto

Then about that time, whichever village I saw, I thought it was rather bleak and boring. I started referencing villages in mountainous districts in China such as you might see in a documentary television show. I was saying, "See? There are all kinds of villages!" and "Can't we make a more distinctive village?" And just then, it connected perfectly to the chickens.

Iwata

You changed the villages to have more slopes so it would feel better to fly with the chickens.

Miyamoto

Yes. That too was a kind of hospitality. After changing the villages, we kept on in that spirit and reworked Zora's River so it would have more rise and fall.

Iwata

Once you took care of one thing, you found something else to do.

Miyamoto

Right. Originally, the only thing written in the specifications about Zora's River was "Make it a landform like you don't usually see." (laughs)

Iwata

That's pretty vague! (laughs)

Miyamoto

But that was enough for (Makoto) Miyanaga-san and others, who were in charge of landforms. You can just say, "Let's make a distinctive village," or "Let's make a really castley castle." (laughs)

Iwata

(laughs)

Miyamoto

For Zora's River, it was "Make it a landform like you don't usually see." But real nature is pretty spectacular. Lots of real landforms far surpass human imagination, so ours can't really compete.

Iwata

I suppose not.

Miyamoto

When you fly up north in an airplane…

Iwata

Like when going to Europe.

Miyamoto

Like maybe from Europe to America? When you look down from a point near the Arctic Circle, you see lots of strange landforms that make you want to go down and take a look around.

Iwata

But if you did, it would probably be a really harsh place. (laughs)

Miyamoto

Yeah. Once you went there, you'd never come back! (laughs) When I see places like that, I realize how limited human thought is. Even if we made something way far out with polygons, for some reason it would still look like landscape scenery that you would see in real life. Making stuff like that each day was incredibly enjoyable.

Iwata

More concentrated discoveries.

Miyamoto

That's right. When we were making The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time, we poured our energy into new things.

Iwata

It is moving when you see someone put forth so much effort.

Miyamoto

Yes. But to those of us making the game, we kept thinking right up to the very end how this, that and the other thing weren't good enough yet. For example, there's the Gossip Stone where you can hear hints and rumors. If you put a bomb next to it…

Iwata

It flies off like a rocket. When I first saw that, I was stunned. (laughs)

Miyamoto

We put that in toward the end. We put so many Gossip Stones around here and there that we began running out of lines for them to say, so I said, "Just have them tell the time." (laughs)

Iwata

(laughs)

Miyamoto

It was sort of like saying, "Wrong stone. Better luck next time." (laughs)

Iwata

Yeah, like "Try again." (laughs)

Miyamoto

Like that, right up until the very end, we were saying, "It's missing something," and "Is this really good enough?"

Iwata

I suppose that's how all that hospitality on the attack entered the game.

Miyamoto

I think so!

A Story of Sword and Sorcery Admired the World Over
Iwata

Even within the 25-year history of The Legend of Zelda games, many people remember The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time as something special.

Miyamoto

Yes, they do.

Iwata

I'm one of them. About the time we were finishing up Super Smash Bros.14, I happened to be in Kyoto and I remember taking a retail copy home with me in a state of excitement on November 21.

Miyamoto

Oh, is that so?14. Super Smash Bros.™: An action-fighting game released for the Nintendo 64 system in January 1999. It was developed by HAL Laboratory, Inc. where Satoru Iwata was president.

Iwata

I was at HAL Laboratory then, but when I played Ocarina of Time, I was surprised. Of course, Super Mario 64 was surprising, too, but Ocarina of Time showed me a lot that I had never encountered in any previous video game.

Miyamoto

This is something I used to talk about in interviews back then, but I had a solid feeling that we were able to portray something like warmth, scent and humidity in this game.

Iwata

You're able to sense a certain atmosphere. Something that I said in "Asking Mr. Miyamoto Right Before Release"—one of our sessions of "Iwata Asks" about the Nintendo 3DS system—was how this was the first video game that could make you feel weak in the knees when looking down from a high place, like when you jump into the waterfall.

Miyamoto

That effect was born once we incorporated autojump. You go in headfirst like you're diving in the Caribbean, so it feels like you're swiftly plummeting, but if you raised your arms high and jumped feet first…

Iwata

You're just a falling person. (laughs)

Miyamoto

Right. (laughs) I thought of autojump on one of my days off. I couldn't wait to get to work on Monday!

Iwata

You couldn't wait to tell everyone. (laughs)

Miyamoto

Right! (laughs) I gathered everyone on Monday morning and said, "We're gonna do something called autojump!" Everyone's response was, "Say what?!" The team that had made Mario games was going to give up the jump button.

Iwata

Then you were able to automatically jump over a hole in the road without even pressing a button.

Miyamoto

Right. An added benefit was that we could program the pose Link would assume after jumping.

Iwata

Ah, I see.

Miyamoto

We could look at the landform ahead and determine how Link would jump.

Iwata

That way we could show Link diving headfirst in front of a high waterfall. A Caribbean diving position! (laughs)

Miyamoto

Right. I thought, "If we use autojump, then we can do all kinds of things." Thinking of so many new things after that was fun.

Iwata

It really was a game with a high concentration of new discoveries.

Miyamoto

Z-targetting15 is another example.

Iwata

Osawa-san and Koizumi-san said they made all kinds of discoveries related to Z-targeting when they went to Toei Kyoto Studio Park.16

Miyamoto

Oh, they talked about that, too? I didn't go, though.15. Z-targeting: When the player presses the Z Button, not only does the viewpoint shift to a view from directly behind Link™, but Link can also talk with characters at a distance and gain an advantage in battle by locking on to enemies. In The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time 3D, players press the L Button.

16. Toei Kyoto Studio Park: Part of Toei's film studios in Kyoto open to the public as a theme park where visitors can see period drama sets and shows.

Iwata

What I thought was interesting about that was how Koizumi-san and Osawa-san had each watched the same show, but they noticed different things! (laughs)

Miyamoto

Which were?

Iwata

They saw a sword-fighting show, and Koizumi-san noticed how even when one person was fighting against many, his opponents would attack in order, and that proved useful in making battles against multiple opponents.

Miyamoto

Oh, all right.

Iwata

And Osawa-san was watching a show with a kusarigama (sickle-and-chain) and came up with the idea of establishing an invisible kusarigama in between Link and opponents.

Miyamoto

In other words, you move in an arc with reference to your opponent, swing around behind and attack.

Iwata

That's right.

Miyamoto

But…that's a little weird.

Iwata

What is?

Miyamoto

Going to the studio park to see a historical drama because they were going to make a (Midevil) sword-and-sorcery tale… (laughs)

Iwata

(laughs) But the idea was to make a chanbara-style The Legend of Zelda game.

Miyamoto

But in chanbara, you grip the katana with both hands, but Link holds his sword with one hand. (laughs)

Iwata

Oh, I suppose you're right. (laughs)

Miyamoto

But they hit on some good ideas there, so in the end it's all right! (laughs)

Iwata

Yeah. (laughs) How did you feel when Ocarina of Time was done?

Miyamoto

In terms of having done new things with this game, I felt a very strong feeling that I only feel on a certain number of games that I'm involved in. And I was really happy that we here in Japan could make a medieval tale of sword and sorcery liked by the people of the world. Despite using a historical drama at Toei Kyoto Studio Park as reference! (laughs) It was received well overseas.

Iwata

Was it at the E3 1999 that Ocarina of Time won so many awards?17 You were going up and down the stairs to the stage accepting awards in all sorts of categories.17. So many awards: At the Interactive Achievement Awards held the same time as E3 in 1999, The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time won in six categories, including Game of the Year.

Miyamoto

Oh, that's right. I was a little embarrassed.

Iwata

Why do you think the game was evaluated so highly?

Miyamoto

At that time, the marketing team in America called it "epic adventure."

Iwata

Epic, as in old epic poems.

Miyamoto

Of course, the system was new, but they liked the story element placed on top of it. And how the name of the game doesn't include the name of the main character. (laughs)

Iwata

A lot of people around the world think Zelda is that guy in the green outfit! (laughs)

Miyamoto

That has continued for 25 years since the first Zelda game. (laughs)

Iwata

That, too, is characteristic of the Zelda series.

Miyamoto

Yeah. By the way, Princess Zelda in the next one is pretty good! (laughs)

Iwata

You mean in The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword?18

Miyamoto

Yes.18. The Legend of Zelda™: Skyward Sword: An action-adventure game scheduled for released for the Wii™ console sometime in 2011.

Iwata

I'll be sure to ask about that when the time comes.

Miyamoto

Yes, absolutely!

One Year Steeped in The Legend of Zelda
Iwata

Lastly, I'd like to ask about The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time 3D. We talked about it in the session of "Iwata Asks" over the Nintendo 3DS system called "Asking Mr. Miyamoto Right Before Release," but now that it is finished, what do you expect and how do you feel about it?

Miyamoto

Simply put, I'm really glad we remade it for the Nintendo 3DS system. Earlier, I said that we were able to give Hyrule a kind of warmth or scent in the Nintendo 64 version. Now that it is in stereoscopic 3D, I think we were able to convey the atmosphere even better—thanks to all the hard work that Grezzo19 put in!

Iwata

That's right.19. GREZZO Co., Ltd.: A video game developer established in 2006. CEO: Mr. Koichi Ishii. Head office: Tokyo.

Miyamoto

We also redid a lot of the textures.

Iwata

So it isn't a simple remake.

Miyamoto

Right. And it isn't a port. It is a remake, but in the truest sense of the word.

Iwata

You remade it from scratch.

Miyamoto

And I think incorporating use of the gyro sensor went quite well.

Iwata

When you use the Fairy Slingshot or the Bow, the camera switches to Link's viewpoint. If you use the gyro sensor then, it's easier to aim.

Miyamoto

Right. And it feels great to look out over the great plain of Hyrule Field. So I think people who played the game before will be able to play this one comfortably as well.

But you move the Nintendo 3DS system when you use the gyro sensor, so the 3D gets a little hard to see. For that reason, when I use the gyro sensor, I've been turning the 3D Depth Slider off. When a demo movie starts or I want to thoroughly enjoy the scenery, I turn it back on.

Iwata

The benefit of 3D Depth Slider is you can quickly turn it on and off.

Miyamoto

Right. It's really convenient because you can adjust it just by moving the slider up and down. And (Takao) Shimizu-san and those guys worked hard at putting in Hint Movies.

Iwata

It seems like players have often had trouble solving a puzzle and got stuck in the Legend of Zelda series.

Miyamoto

Yeah. So ideally it would be great if there were strategy hints that played through the whole thing, but this time you ask a Sheikah Stone and see a movie with hints in it. But it wouldn't be fun if we revealed everything, so we don't just show the solution. Rather, we selected our cuts carefully, as if to say, "It goes sorta like this."

Iwata

About how many Hint Movies are there?

Miyamoto

We added more and more until there were more than 130.

Iwata

Huh? Over 130? (laughs)

Miyamoto

Yeah. (laughs) A lot of them contain really good hints. I think some people weren't able to play through to the end of the Nintendo 64 version, so I hope they will be able to this time.

Iwata

What do you think about being able to see Hyrule in 3D?

Miyamoto

It's a blast just riding around on Epona. I feel closer to saying, "Now this is what I wanted to do!"

Iwata

Miyanaga-san said the hills look like hills. (laughs)

Miyamoto

He worked really hard on those back then! (laughs) You get a clear sense of the ups and downs of Hyrule Field, and it's incredibly pleasing just surveying the interior of the Temple of Time. In the Nintendo 64 version, Ganon's Castle looked bleak at the end, but this time, the 3D really gives it impact.

Iwata

And you can clearly feel the slope to the villages. (laughs)

Miyamoto

So grabbing onto a chicken and taking off is even more fun! (laughs) And in the Water Temple…

Iwata

That's the hardest spot in the game.

Miyamoto

Yes. In the Nintendo 64 version, it wasn't easy to take the Iron Boots on and off for walking bottom of water. I think a lot of people had a hard time with that, but with the touch screen this time, you can take them on and off in a flash, so it's no problem.

Iwata

Aonuma-san's longstanding regret has finally been removed! (laughs) And, the items are now always visible on the bottom screen.

Miyamoto

A lot of girls played the original game.

Iwata

Many of them were fans of Link.

Miyamoto

Yeah. The graphics are even better this time, so Link is even more handsome—just the way Koizumi-san's wife likes! My biggest hope is that Link will gain more fans through this game.

Iwata

Thank you. One more thing before we finish. Please tell me about the twenty-fifth anniversary of The Legend of Zelda.

Miyamoto

Sure. Last year, for the twenty-fifth anniversary of Super Mario Bros., we did a number of special things, like make the Super Mario All-Stars Limited Edition package.20 This year is the twenty-fifth anniversary of The Legend of Zelda, but we thought making a similar special commemorative package—only green for The Legend of Zelda—wouldn't be anything new.20. Super Mario All-Stars™ Limited Edition package: A video-game compilation released for the Wii console in October 2010 to commemorate the twenty-fifth anniversary of Super Mario Bros. The game includes four early Super Mario Bros. games, as well as a commemorative booklet and soundtrack CD.

Iwata

NOA (Nintendo of America) did suggest a special The Legend of Zelda package.

Miyamoto

Yes. But doing the same thing two years in a row isn't very like Nintendo.

Iwata

Yeah. You and I both responded that way to that idea in separate discussions.

Miyamoto

Yeah. It may just be an arbitrary restraint, but it's no fun if you don't do something new. So I turned over a number of ideas. The first orchestral music for a game I worked on was for The Legend of Zelda.

Iwata

Right. For The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess.2121. The Legend of Zelda™: Twilight Princess: An action-adventure game released for the Wii console and the Nintendo GameCube™ system in December 2006.

Miyamoto

Yes. And The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword has more orchestral songs than any other game in the series. So—as already announced at E3—we're going to hold Legend of Zelda twenty-fifth anniversary orchestral concerts in Japan, America and Europe. Japan's will be held on October 10, which is National Sports Day, in Tokyo at Sumida Triphony Hall. The Tokyo Philharmonic Orchestra will perform, with Mr. Taizo Takemoto22 conducting.(Editor's Note: Only the concert date for Japan has been announced at the time of this interview. Concert schedule for other regions is still TBD.)

Iwata

Takemoto-san conducted the Super Smash Bros. DX Orchestra Concert23 and  the orchestral music in the Super Mario Galaxy and Super Mario Galaxy 224 games.

Miyamoto

Right. There will only be one in Japan, so not everyone will be able to attend. But we want as many people as possible to enjoy the music of The Legend of Zelda, so we're thinking about making a CD of the concert music.

Iwata

We actually have plans for two CDs.

Miyamoto

Yes. One is the official soundtrack CD as a present for anyone who purchases The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time 3D and registers the game with Club Nintendo by July 31. (Editor's note: This date is for Japan only. The North American CD offer has ended)

And the other is a CD featuring a recording of The Legend of Zelda 25th Anniversary Symphony Concert. Nintendo will announce how it plans to release it at a later date.

Iwata

So the twenty-fifth anniversary of The Legend of Zelda will revolve around music.

Miyamoto

Yes. And we plan for players to enjoy playing several Legend of Zelda titles this year to commemorate the twenty-fifth anniversary, including The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time 3D; The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword, scheduled for release this year; the Virtual Console version of The Legend of Zelda: Link's Awakening DX, which was made available for download from the Nintendo eShop application on June 8 (June 7 in North American time); and The Legend of Zelda: Four Swords25, scheduled for free download as the Nintendo DSiWare software starting in September.

Iwata

This is the year of The Legend of Zelda.

Miyamoto

That's right. But not just of The Legend of Zelda. We're also making a new Super Mario Bros. game for the Nintendo 3DS system, so I hope everyone will be on the lookout!

Iwata

(laughs)22. Mr. Taizo Takemoto: A conductor active in a broad variety of genres, mainly classical music, but also including movie music and video game music.

23. Super Smash Bros. DX Orchestra Concert: An event hosted by Nintendo and HAL Laboratory in Tokyo in August 2002.

24. Super Mario Galaxy™ and Super Mario Galaxy™ 2: Both are 3D action games released for the Wii console in November 2007 and May 2010, respectively.

25. The Legend of Zelda™: Four Swords: Released for the Game Boy Advance system in March 2003 on a cartridge together with a modified version of The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past.

How Toon Link Was Born
Iwata

Today, I’d like to ask about The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker HD. Before we discuss the Wii U version, I would also like to ask about the original, The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker1 for the Nintendo GameCube. First, please introduce yourselves, including what you worked on before as well as this time. Aonuma-san, we’ll start with you.1. The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker: Released for the Nintendo GameCube console in December 2002.

Aonuma

I worked as director on the original game. This time as the producer, I went to work hoping to take this opportunity to fix what hadn’t gone well before. I remember saying the same thing for The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time 3D!2 (laughs)2. The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time 3D: Released for the Nintendo 3DS system in June 2011. This game is a remake of The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time, released for the Nintendo 64 system in November 1998. It added new elements such as stereoscopic 3D.

Iwata

Right! (laughs) Iwamoto-san? You also discussed The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword3 with me.3. The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword: Released for the Wii console in November 2011. The game’s setting revolved around an island floating in the sky called Skyloft. The graphics used cel-shaded animation, realistic body proportions, and looked like a painting. The Wii Remote Plus controller made possible a wide variety of intuitive controls.

Iwamoto

I wasn’t part of the team for the original game. Soon after, I worked on The Legend of Zelda: Four Swords Adventures4 and The Legend of Zelda: Phantom Hourglass.5 This time, I was the director.4. The Legend of Zelda: Four Swords Adventures: Released for the Nintendo GameCube console in March 2004. The game had three modes: Hyrulean Adventure, Shadow Battle and Navi Trackers. Single-player gameplay was possible, but a multi-player mode achieved by connecting the Game Boy Advance systems was an important way to enjoy the game.

5. The Legend of Zelda: Phantom Hourglass: Released for the Nintendo DS system in June 2007. Controls using the stylus were distinctive of the game. The story takes place a few months after The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker.

Iwata

You weren’t involved with the original version of The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker, but you have been deeply involved with “Toon Link.”

Iwamoto

Yes. Toon Link and I go way back. This was my first time as a developer for The Wind Waker, so I played through the original again and worked on the places that I thought could be improved upon.

Iwata

Okay. Takizawa-san.

Takizawa

For the original version, I had the title of design manager, but to be specific, as a member of the core design staff, I was involved from the start where we talked about things like “Let’s give it this kind of look.” I was also mainly in charge of enemy characters and effects. This time, um…what was I? HD Refining Art Director?

Iwata

That’s quite long! (laughs)

Takizawa

In any case, I thought about how to refine all the graphics to HD, while doing a lot of the actual work.

Iwata

In other words, you were the visual director. All right, Dohta-san?

Dohta

The original came out before I joined the company, so I simply enjoyed playing the game.

Iwata

Oh, you were a player!

Dohta

Yes. I played it like other players play. This time, I was paired with Takizawa-san and had the title of HD Refining Program Director. I provided refining direction with regard to the technological aspects of transferring the original Nintendo GameCube visuals to the Wii U version.

Iwata

And last, Arimoto-san.

Arimoto

I participated on the original as a designer trying to see how we could fully create a world based on the character art by Takizawa-san and (Yoshiki) Haruhana-san.6 When it came to the refining work this time, I took on the responsibility of taking data from the original and somehow making it work! (laughs)6. Yoshiki Haruhana: Software Development Department, Entertainment Analysis & Development Division. Together with Satoru Takizawa, he was design manager of The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker for the Nintendo GameCube console. He participated in the session of “Iwata Asks” with the original development staff (Part 2) for The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time 3D.

Iwata

It was your job to make it work.

Arimoto

Yeah, it was. Takizawa-san and I checked the data from the original and started pulling it together.

Iwata

Well now, let’s move on. The original Version of The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker was released in 2002, but at NINTENDO SPACE WORLD7 the year before, in 2001, we had revealed what the upcoming Zelda game would look like.7. NINTENDO SPACE WORLD: A video game trade show (in Japan) that Nintendo used to hold.

Aonuma

Yes, that’s right.

Iwata

That announcement was shocking to Zelda fans. Many were surprised and puzzled. How did those visuals come about and how did you create that world? In other words, could I ask you to first talk about how Toon Link came to be?

Aonuma

Well…that look wasn’t what I had at first proposed.

Takizawa

At the time, Haruhana-san and I were a part of the core staff from the start, and we had been trying to figure out which graphical direction to take for the next Zelda game. And we wondered whether continuing the path taken by Ocarina of Time, and evolving upon it by giving it more detail was really the right path.

Iwata

You were looking for a direction to take on how to evolve the series.

Takizawa

Yes. Although it may be an exaggeration to say we questioned whether it was “the right path.”

Aonuma

Of course, simply carrying on down that road was an option, and we proceeded with a prototype, but it was incredibly normal and didn’t exceed expectations.

Iwata

The looks improved, as expected. At Nintendo Space World the year before, in 2000 when we announced the Nintendo GameCube, we showed a demo video of an evolved form of Link from The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time, so a lot of people were expecting something along those lines.

Aonuma

Yes. But it was difficult for us to imagine ourselves easily coming up with new ideas and expanding on that world if we had chosen that path. Of course, while a game is more than its visuals, it was going to be made mostly by the same people, and the ideas we had within the same team has its limits.

Takizawa

Everyone on the core staff making the game at that time had a sense that proceeding in that direction didn’t feel quite right. Then one day, out of the blue, Haruhana-san hit us with that new  Link.

Iwata

Just out of the blue?

Aonuma

Yeah, it sure was.

Takizawa

The instant I saw that drawing, my designer’s spirit came to life and I thought, “With a character like that, we can give him actions that will look and feel good no matter how he moves!”

Aonuma

Soon after you saw that, you drew a picture of a  moblin.88. Moblin: Man-beast monsters that appear in The Legend of Zelda series. Various species exist, with some able to skillfully use weapons and armor.

Takizawa

Yes. I immediately drew inspiration from Haruhana-san’s sketch and dashed off a Moblin, thinking, “Then the enemy should look like this!”

Aonuma

Then we began thinking about how we could have them fight, and it suddenly got interesting, with ideas coming out at an incredible speed, and I thought, “This’ll work!”

Iwata

Haruhana-san’s sketch was a detonator for the core staff that set off a bunch of ideas.

Takizawa

Animations came along pretty quickly, too. I remember how, when we first had the initial images, Aonuma-san was all cool, like “Oh, this is what you’re thinking… Hmm…” But when he saw the demo, he was like “Whoa! They’re so cute they really have grown on me!”

Everyone

(laughs)

Aonuma

Looking back at the history of Zelda games, that happens a lot. For Ocarina of Time as well, once we had Link and a certain kind of enemy, gameplay started developing rapidly.

Iwata

Making the action structure and the interaction elements become the starting point for everything else. Once those things are done things rapidly starts branching out.

Aonuma

In the case of The Wind Waker, the visuals for Link and the Moblins started everything. Things quickly shaped up around how we would have them fight.

Takizawa

Another benefit of those visuals was how we could represent the mechanisms and objects9 for puzzles in a more easy-to-understand way. When the visuals are photorealistic, it had the adverse effect of making information difficult to represent game-wise.9. Object: Things placed inside a video game space. Here, the term refers to things and landforms involved in the mechanisms for solving puzzles.

Iwata

In terms of the graphics required within a game, sometimes more problems arise the more photorealistic it is.

Takizawa

Exactly. You can’t tell what moves and what you should touch. But if you change the visual style of parts that move, it’ll stand out like a sore thumb.

Aonuma

We solved those problems with regard to gameplay, and more than anything, we felt we achieved a new sense of combat against new enemies thanks to the stylized actions performed by cel-shaded10 characters. We decided rather early on that we definitely wanted to go with that direction.10. Cel-shaded: A type of 3D computer graphics imagery that renders 3D data to appear like a cartoon or an illustration.

The Zelda Cycle
Iwata

After Toon Link was revealed with much fanfare, I got the impression that a debate over its pros and cons continued among the fans until release. As the developers, what were your impressions about the response after the game was released?

Aonuma

At the time, we couldn’t really directly see the response online the way we can now. There was already a division between those who liked that artistic style and who didn’t, and I had the impression after release that we hadn’t quite gotten across that barrier in order to deliver the Zelda game that we wanted. That was just my own vague idea after talking to a number of people.

Iwata

So you think that the players’ opinions were first divided just by whether they liked the art style or not?

Aonuma

Right. This was a few years ago, but one day, my wife said a friend had told her the visuals for The Wind Waker on the GameCube were really pretty, so if we had it at home, she’d want to play it.

Iwata

Hmm, isn’t that a little too good to be true? (laughs) Did your wife know you were working on The Wind Waker?

Aonuma

She knew it, but she didn’t seem to have much interest when it came out.

Iwata

Does she usually play video games?

Aonuma

About the time of The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess11, she started playing the games I made, but before that, she didn’t play video games very much, partially because our child was so little.11. The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess: Released for the Nintendo GameCube and Wii consoles in December 2006. The realistic 3D graphics, which had evolved from the visuals of The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time, were a distinctive feature. Using the Wii Remote controller to play the Wii version made possible intuitive controls.

Iwata

What was your impression, Takizawa-san?

Takizawa

Well, I have a story similar to Aonuma-san’s. My wife never plays video games. But when she saw the TV commercial back then, she said it looked interesting. And that was the first time I’d ever heard her express disappointment over not being very good at video games.

Iwata

Ah, something came across through those visuals.

Takizawa

I think that’s what it was. We were able to create visuals where we could get someone who doesn’t usually play video games want to play one. That really made me happy.

Aonuma

Back then, probably, video games still had an image of being difficult. For example, controllers were getting more and more buttons.

Iwata

Perhaps, that image was at its peak about that time. It was a time where making games more realistic and lavish excited a lot of people. Wind Waker was released at a time when the gaming industry wasn’t able to offer an idea that could open up games to a broader base of people.

Aonuma and Takizawa

That’s right.

Iwata

If I think back, people were cleanly split into two groups. With one happy and saying “The characters are so expressive that it’s like I’m controlling an anime,” and another resisting it, saying “It’s like a game for small kids with the characters this cute.”

Aonuma

Yes. There was a clear split.

Iwata

But later, as time passed, voices that Toon Link is childish started dispersing and those who said they like him were gaining more ground. Or is that an exaggeration? (laughs)

Aonuma

No, that really happened.

Iwata

Actually, if you look closely at the world of The Wind Waker, it has its own sense of reality that’s takes advantage of its anime-themed world. It’s so inventive with a lot of bright ideas packed in that you think “Wow! So much detail!” But I suppose I notice those things as president of Nintendo because I try to see its charms! (laughs)

Aonuma

Well, there’s a clear split with those who are reluctant even to try it.

Iwata

But I think that has changed recently.

Aonuma

There’s a “Zelda cycle.”

Iwata

Yes. Bill Trinen-san12 at Nintendo of America—who always plays a big role in preparing the overseas versions of The Legend of Zelda games—always talks about the Zelda cycle.12. Bill Trinen: Product Marketing Director, Nintendo of America.

Aonuma

Basically, as time progresses, negative opinions about The Legend of Zelda turn into positive ones. At first, I wasn’t sure about that, but seeing the response to The Wind Waker HD, I think it may be right.

Iwata

And it isn’t restricted to The Wind Waker. Every time a new Zelda title comes out, there’s no shortage of negative opinions, but a year or two later, people are revising their opinions, and its reputation goes up.

Aonuma

The response of fans in North America was like that for The Wind Waker. When we first announced the original version in 2001, the majority of voices we heard were against it. However, the responses for the Nintendo Direct13 we aired in January were incredibly favorable. Also at the Nintendo Experience event at Best Buy14 which was held at the same time as this year’s E315, a lot of people lined up in front of the single demo station for The Wind Waker HD in each store, saying they really wanted to play it.13. January Nintendo Direct: Refers to the Nintendo Direct video titled Wii U Direct Nintendo Games 2013.1.23. Information for The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker HD was revealed here for the first time.

14. The Nintendo Experience events at Best Buy: During E3, events were held at 110 Best Buy locations throughout United States and Canada. Visitors were able to test-play new games still unreleased for the Wii U console such as The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker HD and Mario Kart 8.

15. E3 (Electronic Entertainment Expo): A video game trade show usually held once a year in Los Angeles. In 2013, E3 was held for three days from June 11 to 13. In 2013, Nintendo ceased its customary press conference and focused on activities such as Nintendo Direct broadcasts in various regions and held a Software Showcase immediately before show.

Iwata

This might jinx things, but we weren’t able to expand the reach of the Nintendo GameCube hardware to the fullest, so even if people thought it looked good, a lot of them didn’t buy the hardware and decided to wait it out.

Aonuma

The other thing I could say is that we upended a lot of things with The Wind Waker, and we continued to do so beyond that as well. The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess had serious and photorealistic looks, and then The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword had a painting like look with its half cel-shaded animation. It keeps changing with each new release.

Iwata

To that point, I think a part of the reason that the sentiment for The Wind Waker is increasing is that people have now seen both Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword, and have realized that The Wind Waker did have its own appeal.

Aonuma

I suppose so.

Iwata

After that, Toon Link settled into handheld games, so the number of people who have taken a liking to him is gradually increasing.

Iwamoto

When I worked on The Legend of Zelda: Phantom Hourglass, some people were definitely like “What? Toon Link?!” But with The Legend of Zelda: Spirit Tracks16, it seems like opinions like that had completely disappeared.16. The Legend of Zelda: Spirit Tracks: Released for the Nintendo DS system in December 2009. As in the earlier game titled The Legend of Zelda: Phantom Hourglass, this game featured Toon Link.

Aonuma

As we make The Legend of Zelda games for the Nintendo DS, I think we were finally able to reach across to those people that while the appearance may change, it’s still in fact a Zelda game.

Iwata

And eleven years is more than enough time for people to have a fresh feeling towards it. I doubt many people would feel like playing the remake of a full-length game that came out two years ago, no matter how fun it was, unless it had something really mind-blowing. But when eleven years pass, you might not be able to start over from scratch, but you’re able to enjoy it with a fresh feeling.

Aonuma

That’s right, so when playing the game again, even those of us who made it have forgotten a lot about it. We feel like we’re regular players and say things like “Huh? Was it like this?” as we play along.

Iwata

You get stuck on the puzzles, even though you made the game yourself! (laughs)

Takizawa

Yeah! So we keep a strategy guide at hand. Imagine a developer using a strategy guide to play his own game!

Takizawa

(laughs)

The First Part Is Divine But...
Iwata

I’d like to ask about the game’s content. How did those distinctive characters and that vast ocean world come to be?

Aonuma

Without much hesitation, we decided rather early on to set the game among the seas. We liked how we could use the open sea in designing the mechanics of the game world, and more than anything, we thought it would be interesting to show the sea in that visual style. I think we got into a good flow with everyone coming up with ideas about what the islands in those seas should be like and what the people living there would be like.

Iwata

Even for a Zelda series, quite a lot of distinctive characters that we haven’t seen before show up in The Wind Waker.

Takizawa

I remember that the planning staff and the character production team, led by Haruhana-san, played off each other really well.

Aonuma

Ever since Ocarina of Time, Haruhana-san had been proposing a lot of eccentric characters, but for The Wind Waker, it was like he had powered up and unlocked the safety! (laughs)

Iwata

It seems like the whole world of The Wind Waker was created by boiling down those eccentric essences.

Arimoto

That’s the strength of that visual style. With the stylized, anime-like look, no matter how big the head was, or how short the legs were, it didn’t feel weird. Rather, it all gave a positive impression where everyone was just fine with it.

Aonuma

Yes. The characters are truly rich and expressive.

Iwata

Right, their expressiveness really leaves a lasting impression. When you try to make the expressions realistic, it usually comes off as awkward because of the differences with real life. But with those visuals, those things don’t become an issue and you can express all kinds of facial expressions and gestures.

Aonuma

That’s right. Until Ocarina of Time, if we wanted to make a single mouth movement, for example, it was difficult to express some things, so we put in a lot of effort to that in The Wind Waker.

Takizawa

Now that the eyes had gotten much larger, we wanted to make their facial expressions richer by increasing the number of patterns for the eyes and mouth. Partway through, we even talked about having beams come out of those eyes! (laughs)

Iwata

Huh? Eye-beams?!

Takizawa

(Shigeru) Miyamoto-san and (Takashi) Tezuka-san17 said we needed to supply a reason for the eyes being so big. I don’t think beams were really an option, though.17. Takashi Tezuka: General Manager, Software Development Department, Entertainment Analysis & Development Division. He has been involved in the development of many series such as Super Mario, Yoshi and Animal Crossing. He has appeared in sessions of “Iwata Asks” over the New Super Luigi U, the original Super Mario developers for the 25th anniversary of Super Mario, the history of handheld Legend of Zelda games for The Legend of Zelda: Spirit Tracks, New Super Mario Bros. Wii (Volume 2), and the producers of Super Mario 3D Land, as well as in the special edition sessions of "Iwata Asks" for E3 2012 covering New Super Mario Bros. U and New Super Mario Bros. 2.

Arimoto

We made it so when you stop,  the eyes move, looking this way and that way.

Aonuma

Right, right! That’s when we had the idea of Link’s gaze providing a hint. We used that later in Ocarina of Time 3D, but the first time we’ve done it was The Wind Waker.

Iwata

Oh, so that’s how that happened.

Aonuma

Until then in Zelda games, we had kept some things back so that the players would play as if they were Link himself. But in The Wind Waker, even though you control Link, you also view him objectively and played as if you were interacting with the world through Link. The manner of emotional investment is a little different than in previous Zelda games, and as you spend time with it, it gradually grows on you.

Iwata

It’s like that advertising line we used at the time (in the Japanese market) about it being animation you can touch. After development began, was it like you shot straight to the end without any hesitation?

Aonuma

We never hesitated in our desire to make a completely new Zelda game. But we did notice the negative reaction when we announced it, so we were uneasy. But developing the game timidly would have been the worst thing, so we plunged ahead, determined to go all out hoping to gain acceptance.

Iwata

What was it like watching development from the outside, Iwamoto-san?

Iwamoto

I wasn’t watching too much, but when I actually bought the game and played it, I was surprised at how vivid the animation was. But aside from the visuals, a few things did bother me.

Aonuma

He did deliver some pretty tough opinions. But since he pays so much attention, we asked him to be director this time.

Iwata

To expand upon that, there was talk at the time of how the early parts of the game were divine but later on it sort of dragged. Of course, a lot of people said it feels great to be in that world, so they enjoyed playing to the end, but I think those words express a representative evaluation from players of The Wind Waker.

Iwamoto

My viewpoint was entirely that of a player, and as I played, I noticed places that made me think, “Aw, that’s not quite right…” and “If they had just done this, it would’ve been better!” And this time, I played through the game again, and I noticed places that should be changed to update it for the players today.

Iwata

Yes, the times have changed.

Iwamoto

Yes. So I listed up those points, listened to opinions from the staff members who had made it, and in the end, determined areas in need of adjustment.

Aonuma

If you fix it like that, it gets dramatically better—so much so that you think, “Why didn’t we do it that way in the first place?”

Iwata

Miyamoto-san often says that if you make a game twice, it gets better. Which is something to reflect upon. But I always say, “Yeah, but usually you can’t do that!” (laughs)

Aonuma

That’s so true.

Iwamoto

Even if you don’t make it twice, when you’re about to rush toward the finishline, if you have a few moments to look back, you may notice some things.

Aonuma

I know… You’re absolutely right, but when you’re in a mad dash, looking back is impossible.

Iwamoto

I can understand that, too! (laughs)

Iwata

I’m sure you did your best at the time, and I do think the staff, in their enthusiasm, poured a ton of energy and ideas into it. If they hadn’t, we wouldn’t have done an HD remake.

Aonuma

And we can only see some things now because 11 years have passed.

Takizawa

Chances to look back with a cool head and make a game all over again like what we’re doing now are rare.

Everyone

(nods in agreement)

Iwata

But this time, you got to!

Aonuma

That criticism about the first half being divine and the latter half too tough has always hurt, so I think if we was just five years ago, I wouldn’t have had the will power to do this.

Archeology
Iwata

This is changing the topic, but making software for the Nintendo GameCube and Wii U is different in every way right down to the mechanics of the hardware, so you wouldn’t usually be able to convert a game for Nintendo GameCube to a game for Wii U very easily. I’d like to ask Dohta-san and Takizawa-san about that.

Takizawa

To start with the inspiration for development, as we were developing Wii U, we talked about how we would handle a new Zelda game for it, and as we thought about that…

Iwata

You also made Zelda HD Experience.1818. Zelda HD Experience: Revealed during E3 2011, a tech demo that showed the hardware capabilities of the Wii U console using the game world from The Legend of Zelda series.

Takizawa

Yeah, that was a natural evolution of Twilight Princess, while we also experimented with an illustrated taste as opposed to something that was photorealistic. Apart from that, we tinkered with taking data from previous Zelda games and simply plugging it into Wii U in HD to see what it would be like. Dohta-san really applied himself to the actual work of that.

Iwata

Well, we have a wealth of images, so a programmer can do quite a lot by working at it.

Takizawa

That’s right. We took the various versions of Link from the Zelda HD Experience, Sword and The Wind Waker and lined them up in the same setting. We used practically the same shader19 and brought out the same shading, and Link from The Wind Waker made an overwhelmingly strong impact. He exerted some kind of unnatural pressure.19. Shader: A graphics program for depicting light and shadow.

Iwata

He wasn’t doing anything. His appearance alone stood out.

Takizawa

Yeah! And it looked natural. We thought that was amazing, so we set up the sea and islands from The Wind Waker, put them on the Wii U and adjusted the images. That resulted in great images with vibrant sunlight and superb contrast.

Iwata

Is that  what we showed in the  January Nintendo Direct?

Takizawa

Yes.

Dohta

I was doing that work, when suddenly I got an e-mail from Aonuma-san asking how long it would take to pull it off.

Iwata

Aonuma-san had sprung into action. And with a question that pointed directly at the possibility of the project. (laughs)

Dohta

Yeah! (laughs) To be honest, we’d secretly been calculating it, so I answered that we could do it so it can be released by fall 2013.

Iwata

Aonuma-san, I suppose you were surprised they could do it in under a year.

Aonuma

I sure was! (laughs) If they had said it would take time, I don’t think I would have said we should do it, but under a year was extremely attractive! And I thought making an HD version of The Wind Waker had value as a way to observe how we would make the visuals for the Zelda game for Wii U.

Iwata

I suppose so.

Aonuma

I went to Miyamoto-san right away and said, “Can we make this?” Then that talk about the Zelda cycle came up and gave us a push. And since we could do it in a short amount of time, he greenlighted development.

Takizawa

Well… May I interrupt? Even if the hands-on staff said they could do it and I were the producer, I’d ask for more time! (laughs)

Everyone

(laughs)

Dohta

The make-up of the team was a little special this time, with only a few in-house designers. When it came to things that could be done with sheer manpower like working on high-resolution textures and so forth, a lot of external designers worked with us. In other parts like the refining were basically done by Takizawa-san, Arimoto san and one more person, and we moved forward with those three being the main designers.

Iwata

Three designers? Considering the deadline, even though it was a remake, correcting each bit of data by hand would be impossible.

Dohta

Yeah. Actually, designers in-house that could work on this were limited since it needed to be people who were familiar with the data and direction of the original designs. We knew we weren’t able to rely on a workflow that employed a lot of people. So this time we used a special method. We devised a way to convert Nintendo GameCube data for the Wii U and to make visuals look better, while hardly laying our hands on the 3D modeling data.

Iwata

Did that exist from the start?

Dohta

Not at first. We had been gathering the Wii U know-how at that point from a variety of places and had been adjusting old images so they would show up as cleanly rendered images for The Wind Waker HD.

Iwata

But that new method wouldn’t make all the art look better than on the Nintendo GameCube, would it?

Dohta

No. Some would require special, individual attention. We wrestled with a lot of data, speculating as to what the developers’ intentions were in the original designs, and reflecting that on the Wii U shader.

Iwata

Speculating about their intensions… It sounds like archeology!

Everyone

(laughs)

Takizawa

Well, that’s exactly what Dohta-san was doing.

Dohta

Yeah. Something might clearly look weird in the data but look great in the original art. Work went on for some time as I repeatedly grappled with how to recreate such things on Wii U.

Iwamoto

One issue after the other like that came up.

Dohta

The more we did, the more appeared.

Arimoto

This is a confession from over ten years ago, but polishing up the designer’s data wasn’t a custom that was firmly in place back then.

Iwata

Yes. People had their own way of operating. Each person polished up the characters they were in charge of in their own style.

Dohta

Right.

Takizawa

Dohta-san would say, “Takizawa-san! This is totally impossible for an environment map setting. Take a look!” I’d look at it and it would be data I had made myself! (laughs) Instead of admitting I was responsible, I’d say, “Whoa, that’s horrible! Take care of that, would you?”

Everyone

(laughs)

Dohta

And it’s not just the data. The Nintendo GameCube’s 3D engine was able to generate those kinds of graphics, so I went to hear what people who knew about the engine specs at the time had to say. I went all around the company and finally got Link’s eyes to move right.

Aonuma

The biggest problem was how, for the Nintendo GameCube at the time, they were using cel-shaded animation for visuals that couldn’t be seen anywhere else, so everyone was working in their own way by hand.

Iwata

I suppose sometimes in the process of changing the numerous settings, something happens, and you just say, “Let’s run with it.”

Dohta

Yeah. As a matter of fact, we found out bugs were the cause of how some of those graphics appeared on screen. So, including those things…

Iwata

You recreated them?

Dohta

Yes. I thought, “What in the world am I doing?”

Iwata

I see. When working on the shading, you even recreated the bugs!

Everyone

(laughs)

Iwamoto

The specs were the same. There were specs no one could understand, so we had programmers analyze them and explain them.

Takizawa

Usually, you would handle that after designers had already verified it to some extent, but since we had so few designers, we had to carry on in a somewhat impolite way.

Aonuma

But doing it that way was really important for The Wind Waker HD. Adopting this process really helped us greatly.

Over-designed
Iwata

Now I understand how you used a different method to update the visuals for The Wind Waker HD. I think it’s an unusual example, but by making it that way, different things came into view.

Dohta

The way we did it this time, even the designers making the data weren’t able to imagine how it would look when the images first appeared. Because a method had been put in place to completely replace the images, I think there were times when the designers saw those images come up for the first time and they’d be like, “What?!” (to Arimoto-san) Right?

Arimoto

Well, we were like, “Hmm, it’s already done.”

Everyone

(laughs)

Arimoto

It was a new sensation for something to show up when I had no memory of making it!

Takizawa

Dohta-san’s a bit mischievous, so he’d put in some revisions thinking we’d never notice, and without telling anyone. Then he would wait for someone to notice and say something. As a designer, I couldn’t stand for anyone to think I wasn’t able to see it (laughs), so before Dohta-san revealed it, I wanted to point it out, saying, “Oh, I liked what you put in the other day!” We enjoyed that kind of a quiet battle between the two of us.

Dohta

It’s actually a little pleasing to get caught! (laughs)

Takizawa

The quality improved at amazing speed in the latter half of development. It would change significantly in just half a day!

Iwamoto

We were worried at first. Like, “Is this going to work out?”

Aonuma

So of course, people said, “You probably can’t do it in such a short amount of time.” (laughs) Once we got started, a lot popped up.

Iwamoto

But like Dohta-san said, with the way we made it this time we couldn’t tell how the final form would shape out in the end, so we just had to believe. The two of us just watched over, wondering how it would change.

Aonuma

Yeah. Like, “We’ve come this far, so what’s wrong?”

Iwamoto

He’d say, “No, this is no good at all!”

Dohta

But you can’t have a waterfall flowing in the wrong direction!

Everyone

(laughs)

Iwata

Dohta-san, you never imagined that 11 years later you’d be analyzing and reshaping the data of a game you enjoyed before you were a developer.

Dohta

You can say that again! (laughs)

Iwata

As someone who experienced it both as a player and a developer, did anything stand out?

Dohta

In that sense, it felt to me like what they were originally trying to do with The Wind Waker didn’t fit within the confines of SD resolution.20 By changing it to HD, I saw how the number of colors increased, the resolution go up, and the animation became finer and fluid, so the character’s eye movement and things like that come alive. It’s something that I realized comparatively as I was working.20. SD resolution: The image quality of analog television broadcasts before HD televisions.

Iwata

Before, they were trying to stuff more than would fit into the container. As you were converting the data and programs from that time into the new container, you realized what they had really wanted to do.

Dohta

Right. That’s exactly what happened.

Aonuma

Upon seeing The Wind Waker HD, I realized that with the original version, we had been trying to make something beyond what the Nintendo GameCube could express.

Iwata

If it looked better than before simply placing it in a new container, then it must have been over-designed for it.

Aonuma and Takizawa

That’s right.

Iwata

In other words, more energy and creativity was put in than the container could put out.

Aonuma

The reason I pushed so strongly to do it in such a short time without considering a buffer was because the world that we had really wanted to make years ago was unfolding there in the test images Takizawa-san showed me. I’d seen something to make me think, “This is it!” So as a creator, not doing it wasn’t an option.

Iwata

What’s more, the environment is favorable toward it now.

Aonuma

That’s right.

Takizawa

Um, I love Okinawa and the southern islands, so I often go there.

Iwata

I can tell that from your suntan! (laughs)

Everyone

(laughs)

Takizawa

I think I was able to make that world convincing because when I made those first test images, I envisioned how good I feel when I’m there.

Iwata

The comfortable way it feels isn’t something you can derive from a scene in a photograph.

Dohta

I think Aonuma-san has said this before, about how it’s “reality over realism.” With The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker HD, I think we were able to express a good feeling that doesn’t come across by simply portraying a photorealistic sea or sky.

Iwata

That includes light or a breeze that the eye can’t see. Of course, it isn’t actually bright and a sea breeze isn’t actually blowing, but you sense those things in that gameworld. It’s interesting how this game was made based on something that was created 11 years ago, but the way it feels real surpasses the many games out there today with realistic graphics.

Aonuma

Yes, it’s very interesting. It’s a 100% fabricated world—in exact opposition to live-action movies—but it’s natural and feels comfortable. It’s difficult to express why that is.

Arimoto

Maybe it’s because comfortableness itself is stylized.

Aonuma and Takizawa

Um-huh!

Iwata

A stylization of comfort.

Arimoto

The sunlight and the nice breeze are represented in a pleasant way, with anything extra cut out. Only what’s good is left over, so it feels comfortable.

Takizawa

Recently, I’ve been thinking that I want to create images from which you can sense temperature or smells, so I’ve been paying attention to that. When making The Wind Waker HD, I carefully adjusted the lighting and coloring up to the very end.

Iwata

In this gameworld, you think, “That sunny spot looks nice and warm,” or “If I go into the shade of that tree, I’ll enjoy a cool breeze.”

Aonuma

The shades really do look cool. You feel like you want to go there! (laughs)

Takizawa

That’s possible because of Wii U. In technological terms, the Wii U can present a wide range21 of brightness, but that’s a somewhat dull way to describe it! (laughs) When we make Zelda games in the future, I think that will be one important point.21. Range: This expresses scale, distance, width, etc. Here, range refers to the degree of light.

Pure Entertainment
Iwata

It’s about time to wrap up, but I would like to finish by asking each of you to say something to those who played the original version of The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker and to those who haven’t. Aonuma-san, you’ll be last, so let’s start with Iwamoto-san.

Iwamoto

I was able to make a lot of fresh adjustments to this remake, so I would be happy if people who played the original game notice the differences. An obvious one is how the speed of the ship has doubled, and you can put the map on the Wii U GamePad in your hands, so it’s easier to enjoy the gameworld. And we made it compatible with Miiverse22, so please try that out.22. Miiverse: A network service that allows people all over the world to connect through their Mii characters and more fully enjoy video games integrated with the Wii U console at the system level. People can interact by sharing their thoughts in the plazas of their favorite games and by posting handwritten illustrations and comments.

Iwata

All right. And to people who haven’t played the original?

Iwamoto

I simply want them to dive right in! Some challenging scenes come up as you play, but if you get past them and make it to the end, you’ll think, “Wow! That was fun!”

Aonuma

Compared to the rest of us, Iwamoto-san’s viewpoint was closer to that of a regular gamer’s, so if he says it, it must be true!

Iwata

How about you, Takizawa-san?

Takizawa

I want to convey to people who have played the original that the impression it makes has changed so much that you could say we made the gameworld anew.

Iwata

In other words, you’re saying it’s better than their memories! (laughs)

Takizawa

I’m confident of that! We’ve completely redone the lighting as well, so I think players will be able to enjoy this reborn world with excitement. Some people who haven’t played the original are probably thinking “Didn’t that game come out over ten years ago?” But it’s a game packed with unprecedented fun that doesn’t feel old.

Iwata

Yes, it really is unique.

Takizawa

When it comes to the animation, we hardly corrected it at all, but that’s because we think the original is the most visually pleasant of The Legend of Zelda games. I hope everyone will enjoy it in their living rooms on big-screen TVs together with their family and friends.

Iwata

All right. Dohta-san. First, to people who have played the original.

Dohta

This came up earlier, but we weren’t able to express all of our creativity in the Nintendo GameCube version. In the HD version this time, we were able to express the developers’ leftover grudge.

Iwata

Grudge? Not enthusiasm? (laughs)

Takizawa

But that word does seem to fit best!

Iwata

Like something held it here and it couldn’t move on?

Everyone

(laughs)

Dohta

Some extremely obscure things made me surprised at how thoroughly it was made. I exhaustively uncovered them, so I hope people will notice.

Iwata

Okay. And to people who haven’t played the original?

Dohta

Something I noticed all over again as a developer is how The Wind Waker is that it’s such a pure game. The direction of the game itself is that way, and the story is too, pure and straightforward, without any wavering. I want people to fully enjoy that kind of pure entertainment.

Iwata

“Pure entertainment” is a good way to describe the nature of this game.

Dohta

Those who can enjoy that for the first time are quite lucky.

Iwata

Arimoto-san, what would you say to people who have played the original game?

Arimoto

I think they will discover things they didn’t notice before. For example, the  brothers Orca and Sturgeon23 on the first island don’t really look alike, but when you see them in HD, Sturgeon’s eyes have a sharp glint to them behind his glasses. When we saw that, we thought, “Oh, they really are brothers!”23. The brothers Orca and Sturgeon: Residents of Outset Island, the opening setting of The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker. They teach Link swordplay and various controls.

Iwata

Thanks to HD, the sharp gaze shared by the two became apparent. (laughs)

Arimoto

Yeah. There are other things too, though! (laughs) And some people who haven’t played the original game think that there’s nothing more to Link in The Wind Waker than his cuteness. While he does look cute, his actions are always manly and cool!

Takizawa

If you look at what he does and accomplishes in the game, he is the manliest Link in the history of the series.

Arimoto

He doesn’t make a lot of sugary cute facial expressions and poses.

Iwamoto

But he does kind of frolic when he gets a Heart Container!

Arimoto

Oh, right! (laughs)

Iwamoto

That’s cute.

Everyone

(laughs)

Iwata

Well, the rest of the time, he plays it cool, which makes that behavior stand out. And last, Aonuma-san. Your closing comments, please.

Aonuma

Earlier, we described the game as pure and straightforward, and I do think a lot of the original game came together in a burst after that one picture of Toon Link. We really dashed through at full power. However, when I played through it, a lot of clumsy spots came into view. We fixed those places and put it in HD, adding a new, polished edge.

Iwata

Right.

Aonuma

I think people who have played the original game are sure to notice that. I think they will definitely be able to sense, in a magnified way, what was there before. We made this version easier to play and more comfortable to make progress with, so I think they will be able to experience the joy of playing through every inch of this world.

Iwata

It’s easier than before to experience the gameworld through and through.

Aonuma

Yes. And to those playing for the first time, it wouldn’t be wrong at all to think of The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker HD not as a remake but as a brand new The Legend of Zelda game reborn for the world today.

Iwata

It’s a straight and robust Zelda game for 2013.

Aonuma

Yes. I hope they will experience that to the fullest.

Iwata

I feel like the many elements refined for this game are hands extended to all kinds of people in all directions. I’m looking forward to how people will receive it when it reaches their hands.

Aonuma

I want to see what kind of reception The Wind Waker HD finds. With regard to the intent of the original version and whether the feeling invested in it was right. I think it will become an important turning point for thinking about The Legend of Zelda in the future.

Iwata

I also think The Wind Waker HD will be a fun game for people to watch others play. You could say that one criteria of a good game is that it’s fun for people to simply watch, and that is particularly true of The Wind Waker HD. Thanks to the HD graphics, the power of the visuals, facial expressions and gameworld have joined into one whole more than ever so that you can sense light, wind and warmth not usually apparent to the eye. I hope everyone will enjoy it on a large screen together with their family and friends. Thank you for today.

Everyone

Thank you.

(2013)
This interview features Koji Takahashi, Kentaro Tominaga, Shiro Mouri, Hiromasa Shikata, and Eiji Aonuma.

Sounds Like an Idea That's 20 Years Old!
Iwata

The Legend of Zelda: A Link Between Worlds is finally finished. From what I've heard, development was quite a challenge.

Everyone

(laughs wryly)

Iwata

Partway through development, your staff was taken away by other projects so for a while this project was at a standstill. While it wasn't the smoothest game to complete, I heard from various sources internally that the game turned out really well. Even (Shigeru) Miyamoto-san whispered, "This Zelda game is good!"

Aonuma

What? Why doesn't he tell us these things directly?! (laughs)

Everyone

(laughs)

Iwata

First, let's have everyone introduce what they were in charge of, starting with Aonuma-san.

Aonuma

As usual, I was producer. The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past1 was the game that got me involved with the series. We're making a sequel 22 years later, and as producer, I was in the position of waiting around excitedly to see what it would be like.1. The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past: An action-adventure game released for the Super NES system in November 1991.

Shikata

I'm Shikata. I was director for the first time on this game. I've been involved with The Legend of Zelda series since The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time2 15 years ago.2. The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time: An action-adventure game released for the Nintendo 64 system in November 1998.

Iwata

You've worked on The Legend of Zelda for 15 years?

Shikata

For not the entire 15 years, but I was involved in most Zelda games.

Mouri

I'm Mouri, assistant director and lead programmer. This was my fourth game in the Zelda series. First, I was involved with The Legend of Zelda: Four Swords Adventures3, and then I was main programmer for The Legend of Zelda: Phantom Hourglass4 and The Legend of Zelda: Spirit Tracks.53. The Legend of Zelda: Four Swords Adventures: An action-adventure game released for the Nintendo GameCube console in March 2004.

4. The Legend of Zelda: Phantom Hourglass: A stylus controlled action-adventure game released for the Nintendo DS system in June 2007.

5. The Legend of Zelda: Spirit Tracks: A stylus controlled action-adventure game released for the Nintendo DS system in December 2009.

Iwata

You were main programmer on the Zelda handheld games that came out in the last few years.

Mouri

That's right, I did that while getting the cooperation of all sorts of staff members.

Tominaga

I'm Tominaga. As assistant director and plan leader, I performed tasks like coordinating the planners. In the Zelda series, I worked on The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker6 my first year at the company, and after that, I was a planner for The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess7 and The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword.8) And I helped with debugging of The Legend of Zelda: Four Swords Adventures, so ever since I joined the company, I've been involved with The Legend of Zelda for home consoles. This was my first time for a handheld.6. The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker: An action-adventure game released for the Nintendo GameCube console in December 2002.

7. The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess: An action-adventure game released for the Wii and Nintendo GameCube consoles in December 2006.

8. The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword: An action-adventure game released for the Wii console in November 2011.

Takahashi

I'm Takahashi. As design leader, I coordinated the design.

Iwata

You were also design leader for Animal Crossing: New Leaf.9 When that was over, you jumped right into The Legend of Zelda?9. Animal Crossing: New Leaf: A communication game released for the Nintendo 3DS system in November 2012.

Takahashi

Yes. As soon as it was over. In The Legend of Zelda series, I was also a designer for Phantom Hourglass and Spirit Tracks.

Iwata

When did the idea come up of making a new Zelda game for the Nintendo 3DS?

Aonuma

Well, as director, Shikata-san should talk about that.

Shikata

Sure. It first came up right after we finished Spirit Tracks.

Iwata

Oh, it was right after Spirit Tracks was finished? It took quite a long time then.

Shikata

Spirit Tracks came around at the end of 2009, so...

Aonuma

It's already been four years.

Shikata

When The Legend of Zelda: Spirit Tracks was over, much of the staff went to develop Sword.

Aonuma

We had to begin working on Skyward Sword immediately.

Shikata

The only ones left were Mouri-san, another programmer and I. The Nintendo 3DS wasn't out yet, but our goals was to make a Zelda game for the handheld that would follow the Nintendo DS, so for about the first year, we thought a lot about what to do.

Iwata

Just the three of you for a whole year? Wasn't that hard?

Shikata

Yeah. We anguished over it every day, wondering what we should do.

Aonuma

To add to that, it didn't mean that nothing came of it that one year. As we were testing things, that was a period when we hit upon the most distinctive feature of this game, the  system of Link becoming a mural.

Shikata

That's right.

Aonuma

It took quite some time to reach that point.

Iwata

It was really difficult.

Shikata

Yeah. At first, just the three of us were steeped in it, looking around in all directions. After about half a year, just to get the project through, we decided to give a presentation to Miyamoto-san and have him say yay or nay.

Iwata

Did you have the idea then of making a sequel to A Link to the Past?

Shikata

No, A Link to the Past wasn't on our minds at all. We didn't even have the idea of Link entering walls. We were thinking about a Zelda game with the theme of communication. When we presented it, Miyamoto-san said, "This sounds like an idea that's 20 years old." (laughs)

Iwata

From 20 years ago? (laughs) Did the air get chilly?

Shikata

No, it was cold from the start! (laughs)

Everyone

(laughs)

Mouri

As soon as we started the presentation, I could clearly see Miyamoto-san's facial expression rapidly darkening. I thought, "This is bad..." And then at the end he said, "This sounds like an idea that's 20 years old," that was the killing blow. We were down on the floor.

Iwata

What did you do once you were beaten down?

Shikata

He had ripped it apart so badly that I was distraught.

Iwata

I suppose so. (laughs)

Shikata

We decided to rethink it from the start, and one day when the three of us were having a meeting, I suddenly said, "What about having Link enter into walls?" Mouri-san and the other programmer were like "That's great!" and got into it. But even though I had brought it up, it didn't quite make sense to me.

Iwata

You weren't certain it would be fun, but you blurted it out anyways?

Shikata

Right. So I asked them what was so good about it.

Iwata

Even though it was your idea? (laughs)

Mouri

Usually, it would be the other way around! (laughs)

Iwata

It often happens that you have a great idea but can't get anyone to understand, but this time it was the other way around. (laughs)

Shikata

Yeah. The exact opposite! (laughs)

"Don't Forget Us!"
Iwata

Shikata-san came up with the idea of entering walls, but he wasn't sure what was fun about it. What happened then?

Mouri

There’s this other programmer who is usually a really mild-mannered person, but Shikata-san, who had suggested the idea, was so indecisive about it that the programmer got mad and angrily said, “I think the idea of entering walls sounds amazing, so what’s wrong with it?!”

Iwata

Even though he's mild-mannered?

Mouri

Yeah. (laughs) He got even hotter, saying, "We're at a fork in the road as to whether this project runs astray or not, so I'm not changing my mind!" and "We're making this no matter what, so tell us what to do!" Then Shikata-san was like, "Maybe the point is turning corners on the walls..." without any confidence, so I got angry too and fired back, "Then I'm making a prototype!"

Shikata

At first, they said it would take about one week.

Mouri

But my back was up, so I did it in one day and showed it to him the next morning, saying, "How's that?!"

Iwata

How was Shikata-san's reaction?

Mouri

(gesturing as if peering into a Nintendo 3DS) He was like, "Whoa! This is it!" (laughs)

Everyone

(laughs)

Iwata

I guess you were surprised to see your own idea running like that?

Shikata

Yeah. The moment I saw it, I was certain it would fly.

Iwata

It's good to have a team you can rely on.

Shikata

Yeah! (laughs) And that prototype gave rise to all kinds of ideas.

Iwata

The idea of entering walls came up, and then Link, who had been 3D, became 2D by entering walls, and he was able to go smoothly around corners. That had a lot of applications in allowing him to go places he couldn't before, creating new puzzles, and providing material for new mechanics.

Shikata

That's right.

Iwata

When you made that prototype, was it a direct top-down view like in A Link to the Past?

Shikata

No. As in Spirit Tracks, the viewpoint was overhead from an angle.

Aonuma

At the time, we were thinking of it as an extension of the Nintendo DS games.

Shikata

I brought that prototype today. Iwata-san, would you try it out?

Iwata

Sure. (taking the Nintendo 3DS) Link looks like he's from Spirit Tracks.

Aonuma

Yeah. He was still  Toon Link.

Shikata

And if you press the A button...

Iwata

Oh! I went into the wall! I don't think I've ever seen anything like it!

Aonuma

I saw this today for the first time in a while too, and it's surprisingly good! (laughs)

Iwata

(plays in silence) I see... You got riled up and made this in one night?

Mouri

Well, I didn't make this whole thing in one night. At that time, I only made the turning corners part.

Aonuma

With a prototype like this, you would usually go on to enter serious development based on it.

Iwata

Yeah.

Aonuma

But that wasn't to be.

Iwata

Why not?

Aonuma

The director can explain that.

Shikata

Okay. When we showed this to Miyamoto-san, he said, "Let's do it." And we were stoked, too. But before two weeks had passed, we got involved in launch titles for the Wii U.

Iwata

When was that?

Shikata

About October of 2010.

Iwata

About two years before release of Wii U.

Aonuma

They absolutely needed more people to work on the Wii U launch titles.

Iwata

So other projects took this project's core members.

Shikata

Yeah, everyone got whisked away. (laughs)

Aonuma

Basically, the team disbanded.

Shikata

So at the time I lost hope. I had hardly ever heard of a project starting, disbanding, and then starting up again later.

Iwata

You had come up with a great idea, but feared it would never see the light of day.

Shikata

Yeah. I thought that.

Aonuma

But when they left the team, they would leave parting gifts.

Iwata

Like what?

Aonuma

They put a sticker with the development code name on a Nintendo 3DS with the prototype in it-like a student giving a favorite teacher a present at a graduation ceremony-and gave it to Miyamoto-san, Tezuka-san10 and me.10. Takashi Tezuka: Executive Officer, Software Development Department, Entertainment Analysis & Development Division. He has been involved in the development of many series such as Super Mario, Yoshi and Animal Crossing. He has appeared in sessions of "Iwata Asks" over the New Super Luigi U, the original Super Mario developers for the 25th anniversary of Super Mario, the history of handheld Legend of Zelda games for The Legend of Zelda: Spirit Tracks, New Super Mario Bros. Wii, and the producers of Super Mario 3D Land, as well as in  the special edition sessions of "Iwata Asks" for E3 2012 covering New Super Mario Bros. U and  New Super Mario Bros. 2.

Iwata

Oh...

Aonuma

They didn't say it in words, but in effect, they were saying, "When you see this, remember this project existed." (laughs)

Iwata

Like, "Don't forget us!" (laughs)

Shikata

Yeah. (laughs)

Iwata

What a sad story! (laughs)

Aonuma

I thought, "There's no way we can forget this," but at the time, I had to develop Skyward Sword.

Iwata

How about you, Shikata-san and Mouri-san?

Shikata

After that, I developed Nintendo Land11 and Mouri-san developed New Super Mario Bros. U.12 Incidentally, for Nintendo Land, I worked on The Legend of Zelda: Battle Quest.1311. Nintendo Land: An interactive theme park game released simultaneously with the Wii U console in December 2012.

12. New Super Mario Bros. U: An action game released simultaneously with the Wii U console in December 2012.

13. The Legend of Zelda: Battle Quest: One of 12 attractions included in Nintendo Land and based on Nintendo games. One player uses the Wii U GamePad like a bow and arrow while up to three other Links use Wii Remote controllers like swords to cooperate in clearing a stage by defeating monsters.

Iwata

So your background developing Zelda games since Ocarina of Time wasn't interrupted.

Shikata

Right. I threw all my enthusiasm that I had for The Legend of Zelda into Wii U.

Everyone

(laughs)

Direct Top-down View
Iwata

A lot of people, overseas in particular, were calling for a new Zelda game for the Nintendo 3DS to come out by the end of 2013.

Aonuma

Yeah. We released The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time 3D14 for the Nintendo 3DS, but that was a remake of a Nintendo 64 game. So when I heard people asking if we would come out with a whole new game, I really wanted to satisfy those expectations.14. The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time 3D: An action-adventure game released for the Nintendo 3DS system in June 2011.

Iwata

But Shikata-san and the others were still off elsewhere.

Aonuma

Yeah. Then development of Skyward Sword ended two years ago in 2011 and I started thinking about the next project. Since the idea of entering walls had come up, I sensed the possibility of making a new kind of Zelda game from that and thought I should do something about it. I wanted development to make even a little progress, so while they were gone, I resumed work on it.

Iwata

What? You revived the project even without the core members?

Aonuma

If I hadn't, and we'd begun after they got back, we'd never have been able to bring it out by the end of 2013.

Iwata

Oh, I suppose not.

Aonuma

I brought in a programmer who would carry on Mouri-san's intentions, and had Tominaga-san join who carried over for Shikata-san. They kept on making the game until the two directors came back.

Iwata

When did Tominaga-san, who succeeded Shikata-san, step in?

Tominaga

It was right after the development of Skyward Sword had ended, so about November 2011.

Iwata

Shikata-san's team disbanded in October 2010, which left about a one-year break.

Aonuma

That's right. Tominaga-san lent support for roughly one year until Shikata-san and the others came back, pecking away at the work of improving the system of entering walls.

Iwata

What did you work on first, Tominaga-san?

Tominaga

Without letting myself be constrained by the world of The Legend of Zelda, I made a few small dungeons with entering-the-wall ideas I came up with, and then about May of 2012, I presented them to Miyamoto-san saying that I would be making 50 more of these dungeons where you used the entering-walls ability.

Iwata

What was Miyamoto-san's reaction?

Tominaga

He tore it up! (laughs)

Shikata

Again! (laughs)

Everyone

(laughs)

Tominaga

But he didn't just criticize, he also gave us a hint. He suggested basing it on The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past.

Iwata

That was when A Link to the Past first came into the picture?

Tominaga

Yes. And right after Aonuma-san said, "What if we base it on A Link to the Past, and try pairing entering walls with a point of view looking down from directly overhead?"

Iwata

So you based it on A Link to the Past because of suggestions from Miyamoto-san and Aonuma-san?

Tominaga

Yes.

Aonuma

Actually, Miyamoto-san had been challenging me to do something ever since the Nintendo 3DS came out. He suggested making a 2D Zelda game like A Link to the Past playable in stereoscopic 3D.

Iwata

Oh.

Aonuma

But simply taking a 2D game and making it 3D isn't interesting at all.

Iwata

It's just like, "We made this 3D."

Aonuma

Right. That was a problem we were facing for a while and I wondered what to do. Then, when I first saw Shikata-san's gameplay of entering walls, I was surprised, but as we played for a while from an overhead, diagonal angle view like in Spirit Tracks, that surprise faded after a time.

Iwata

Why was that?

Aonuma

It didn't look different enough when you entered the wall. Then, as I was discussing various things with Tominaga-san, we considered placing the camera directly overhead and fixing it there, and we made a test version. It felt really intriguing when Link entered a wall and the view switched from a top-down view to a side view. Miyamoto-san had given us the task of turning 2D Zelda into stereoscopic 3D, so...

Iwata

It connected with that.

Aonuma

Right. It fit perfectly, and I thought, "This is it!" I also suggested to everyone that we should use the landforms from A Link to the Past instead of starting from scratch.

Iwata

Did anyone say that it would turn out like a remake even though you had this new idea of entering walls?

Aonuma

They did. Everyone gets skeptical when they simply hear about it in words.

Iwata

Sure.

Aonuma

So I used a tool myself to render the landforms of A Link to the Past into 3D.

Iwata

You did that yourself? (laughs)

Aonuma

Yeah. It took about three days.

Tominaga

I think it took a little longer...

Aonuma

Did it? (laughs) I wasn't sure it was right for a producer to go that far, but I thought showing the actual thing would be more convincing and made three-dimensional landforms. I had them place Link and move him around. When they saw that they all marveled out loud and were convinced that it works. When we showed it to Miyamoto-san, he finally gave the okay. About when was that?

Tominaga

It was two months after Miyamoto-san ripped it apart in May of 2012. The first presentation was no good, the second one was okay, the third was no good, and the fourth was okay, so it went through a cycle of bad to good.

Iwata

This project was both trashed and praised. (laughs)

Tominaga

Yeah! (laughs)

Beautiful Teamwork
Iwata

Shikata-san and Mouri-san, you were still on the Wii U projects when Miyamoto-san gave the okay on the fourth presentation, weren't you?

Shikata and Mouri

Yes.

Aonuma

But I always had them participate in the presentations. Miyamoto-san said that this would work for a new Zelda game, and then development started in earnest.

Shikata

We went through a lot of trial and error with the top-down view.

Aonuma

Yeah, we did.

Shikata

If you looked straight down from the top, all you could see was Link's hat. So it looked like some mysterious green object moving around! (laughs)

Everyone

(laughs)

Iwata

A true top-down view actually has lots of problems. If you make it truthfully, it doesn't look interesting at all.

Shikata

That's right.

Iwata

So you have to fake it-but in a good way.

Aonuma

Right. We decided to fudge it a bit. Then I was on a speaking session at New York Comic-Con15 in October, and...15. Comic-Con: A cultural event held yearly in cities like New York and San Diego celebrating comics, movies and other forms of entertainment. Nintendo was an exhibitor at the New York Comic-Con in 2013.

Iwata

You revealed the trick.

Aonuma

Yes. I showed Zelda fans pictures from a side view as well as from above, and it reveals that Link and the rupees were set at an angle.

Iwata

I saw those pictures too, that world looked so strange that I wanted to say, "What in the world?!" (laughs)

Aonuma

Yeah. We had purposefully tilted the objects back so you could see Link and the others' faces and bodies when looking from directing above.

Iwata

That way, instead of an unrecognizable green object, it looked like Link.

Shikata

Right! (laughs)

Aonuma

There was also this other challenge where we ended up putting ourselves in a bind.

Shikata

You mean 60fps?1616. 60fps (frames per second): Refreshing the image displayed on the screen 60 times per second.

Aonuma

That's right. When Mouri-san suddenly asked about doing 60 frames per second, I answered, "Huh? But 30 frames per second is plenty for The Legend of Zelda!" But he persisted, and when I asked why, he said it stabilizes the stereoscopic 3D.

Iwata

That would be twice the usual number of 30 frames, so the graphics would look smoother.

Aonuma

Yes. As a result, it's easier for the focus of the stereoscopic 3D to come together. I had them show me the game running in 30fps as well as in 60fps and the difference was crystal clear.

Mouri

Some even say it looks like the screen is shining.

Iwata

Shining? That doesn't sound like a word that would come out of a programmer.

Mouri

Well, there's no basis for that, but... (laughs)

Everyone

(laughs)

Aonuma

The difference was obvious, so I definitely wanted to do it, but it would be difficult to display the world of The Legend of Zelda at 60fps.

Iwata

It could cut in on things like the quality of the art.

Aonuma

Yes. I asked, "If we do that, we'll be putting ourselves in a bind. Is that all right?" But Mouri-san firmly answered, "It will be all right if we decide to do it from the start."

Iwata

It would be difficult to switch to 60fps partway through, but if you decided on it from the start, you could make the game so as to manage it.

Mouri

Right.

Aonuma

So I was like, "I'll leave it up to you!"

Iwata

Mouri-san, you can be honest, did you ever regret it, even once?

Mouri

(firmly) Me? Not once.

Iwata

Oh, that was decisive! You have such unwavering determination! (laughs)

Mouri

It was completely different when I tried it too, so even though I knew it would be hard, I knew we should use 60fps. I think it was hard on the designers, though.

Iwata

Ah. The effects spilled over to the designers.

Takahashi

Well, we designers also found 60fps attractive.

Iwata

You didn't feel victimized?

Takahashi

No. Even playing with the 3D turned off, it feels completely different.

Iwata

It's different even without the stereoscopic 3D?

Takahashi

Yes. With so many frames per second, the movement is smooth when Link swings his sword, and when you beat an enemy, it's very refined. So we took the idea of making the game 60fps very positively.

Iwata

But even as you lightened the processing load, you had to make it look good, so design must have had a hard time.

Takahashi

Well, the programmers had optimized everything for us, so to us it felt like work as usual.

Iwata

What beautiful teamwork! (laughs)

Mouri

But perhaps not that beautiful! (laughs)

Takahashi

No no, it was beautiful! (laughs)

Aonuma

Well, let's leave it at that. (laughs)

Everyone

(laughs)

Iwata

What merits arose from the choice to use 60fps? Aside from stable stereoscopic 3D, smooth sword swings and a shining screen, that is. (laughs)

Aonuma

(laughs) For example, you use the bottom touchscreen to change an item, and you  set the items by dragging and dropping.

Iwata

Settings the items are intuitive.

Aonuma

Yes. I actually wanted to do that with Ocarina of Time 3D.

Iwata

But that was 30fps.

Aonuma

Because of that we couldn't do it. At that speed, it can't keep up with the stylus's movement. But at 60fps, it's really smooth. There were all sorts of other benefits as well, but up until the very end, I was worried it might all fall apart.

Iwata

But you did it, right?

Aonuma

Right. So I'm absolutely thrilled! (laughs) I think that's because Mouri-san, who decided on it up front, kept the faith without ever giving up.

Iwata

I knew it. Beautiful teamwork! (laughs)

Everyone

(laughs)

"We can do that?!"
Iwata

What other challenges arose in making a new Zelda game for the Nintendo 3DS?

Aonuma

This time, knowing that we could use stereoscopic 3D, we tried putting in ideas making use of height, which we hadn't tried before.

Iwata

No one had any experience.

Aonuma

Right. So we didn't have any ideas to make us say, "This is it!" Maybe the director should talk about that.

Shikata

Sure! (laughs) In The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past, the place with the greatest difference between high and low was the Tower of Hera, and it's structured so you go up and up. With that tower as a basis, we tried making a 3D dungeon. But I was still making Nintendo Land at that time, so Tominaga-san thought over that dungeon for a long time.

Tominaga

We wanted to emphasize how tall the tower is, so I thought about making use of 60fps for something really satisfying, in getting the actions to feel great when you climb further and further up the tower. For example, if you hit a jump platform with the Hammer, you fly to the floor above.

Aonuma

That's quite a big difference. In Zelda games before, if you wanted to go to another floor, you had to use the stairs or...

Iwata

Or an elevator or...

Aonuma

Yeah. But we weren't able to visually express the height by going to an upper floor that way.

Iwata

When you went up stairs, you just entered a closed room.

Aonuma

But when you go up a floor this time, the lower levels overlap underneath. There's a mechanism you hit with the Hammer to jump, and when you launch up, it automatically switches to the upper floor. When I saw that, I thought, "This is it!"

Iwata

You realized you had discovered the true value of stereoscopic 3D.

Aonuma

That's right.

Tominaga

And the towers in A Link to the Past only consisted of interior floors, but in this game, we made use of the ability to enter walls so that  you can go to the tower's exterior.

Iwata

The one where you go into the wall and then around.

Tominaga

Right.

Aonuma

Iwata-san, I had you look at the Tower of Hera before E3 201317, and you said, "We can do that?!" (laughs)17. E3 (Electronic Entertainment Expo): A video game trade show held once a year in Los Angeles. The Legend of Zelda: A Link Between Worlds was exhibited for the first time as a playable game in June 2013 at E3.

Iwata

I did! (laughs) When I saw that, the use of stereoscopic 3D gave me a strong sense for the potential of The Legend of Zelda, so impulsively I did say, "We can do that?!" (laughs)

Aonuma

When I heard you say that, I was gratified. I thought, "This will work!" But we made the Tower of Hera long before showing it to you.

Tominaga

That's right. We made it about the end of 2012, and then people began flooding in.

Shikata

We came back, too! (laughs)

Aonuma

In the end, we had an incredible number of people.

Tominaga

First, we had new members look at the Tower of Hera and said, "This is what the next Zelda game will be like."

Iwata

About the time you increased in number, Takahashi-san joined as a designer, right?

Takahashi

Yes. I joined soon after Animal Crossing: New Leaf finished.

Iwata

Why did you make Link look like that  when he enters walls?

Takahashi

We tried a number of approaches.

Iwata

I don't think it would have ended up that way unless the team hadn't really thought over and discussed how to handle those visuals.

Takahashi

Yeah. We really hashed that out. When I joined the team, I could sense that Link's appearance in walls would be a big topic.

Iwata

Until then, it was like in the prototype you showed me earlier. A 3D Link like in Spirit Tracks went into the wall looking the same way, only just in a flat 2D.

Takahashi

That's right. When you're playing like normal, the top-down viewpoint changes to a side view when he enters the wall, and the conditions are different, so we thought Link's design should change, too.

Iwata

In an easy-to-comprehend way, you wanted to convey through a different style the conditional changes when Link goes into a wall.

Takahashi

That's right. When phrased as "entering walls," I got the feeling there was a different world inside the walls.

Iwata

He isn't so much entering them as being painted on the surface.

Takahashi

Right. So I thought it would be good to express it as "becoming a picture" rather than "entering the wall" and have it look like Link was painted on the surface of the wall.

Shikata

But then we needed a story for why Link becomes a picture. We decided to have  a strange artist enemy appear who draws incomprehensible pictures to satisfy himself.

Aonuma

That's when Takahashi-san drew an avant-garde Link. One eye was strangely bigger than the other. (laughs)

Takahashi

Because he's a strange artist. (laughs)

Aonuma

Mouri-san was really against that when he saw it.

Takahashi

He really was.

Mouri

I think that was because I made the early prototype when a 3D Link sticks to the wall and becomes 2D.

Iwata

Although you had made it in just one night, it made Shikata-san say, "That's it!" So it's only natural you were attached to it.

Mouri

Yeah. I had a special affection for it.

Aonuma

Then Takahashi-san really worried over it.

Takahashi

Yeah. I really did. I wasn't sure how to pull it off. Then I thought he should be a mural like in ancient buildings rather than just a picture, and in the end we reached the current style.

Aonuma

When Mouri-san saw Link as a mural, he was convinced right away.

Mouri

Yes. Totally convinced. Becoming a mural fits the atmosphere of The Legend of Zelda.

Aonuma

In that way, there was a lot of trial and error until those visuals solidified, but there was also a time when you could do a lot when Link was a mural.

Mouri

Like jumping.

Iwata

Jump? (laughs)

Aonuma

There was a time when Link was jumping around like Mario! (laughs)

Iwata

Oh! (laughs)

Aonuma

But we abandoned that completely.

Shikata

We decided to make becoming a mural only a means of movement so the players wouldn't get confused.

"Rethinking the Unquestioned"
Iwata

This game borrows the world of The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past, but it's a completely new game.

Aonuma

Yes, that's right.

Iwata

The subtitle in Japanese is Triforce of the Gods 2, but it's a completely different game, so they aren't using the "2" overseas.

Aonuma

Overseas, the subtitle for the earlier game was A Link to the Past.

Iwata

Now it will be A Link Between Worlds.

Aonuma

Yes. This time instead of "linking" to the past, the setting of the new game takes place far in the future, and the story passes between the two worlds of Hyrule and Lorule.

Iwata

So that's why it's called A Link Between Worlds.

Aonuma

Right. In Japan, though, it didn't feel out of place to add a "2" to Triforce of the Gods, so we decided on that. Some of the staff, however, thought that would encourage people to think it is a remake.

Shikata

There was even talk of calling it The New Legend of Zelda like there's New Super Mario! (laughs)

Everyone

(laughs)

Aonuma

But we use the game world of Hyrule and the top-down point of view. Because of those similarities, we decided on The Legend of Zelda: Triforce of the Gods 2 here in Japan.

Iwata

While there are those similarities, there's the new system of becoming a mural. What else is new?

Shikata

Our development concept for this game was rethinking the conventions of Zelda18, but that wasn't our theme from the start.18. Rethinking the conventions of Zelda: On January 23, 2013, Eiji Aonuma announced this development concept for The Legend of Zelda: A Link Between Worlds in the edition of Nintendo Direct titled "Wii U Direct Nintendo Games 2013.1.23."

Iwata

Yes.

Shikata

I've worked on The Legend of Zelda for 15 years, and every time a new game is released, I hear opinions from my friends. more than a few people get stuck somewhere as they're playing and can't get beyond that point. I feel like that is a big problem.

Iwata

If you get stuck on a dungeon somewhere, you can't move forward. If you keep trying for a while but it's no use, then you give up.

Shikata

Right. I knew more than a few have that experience. Every time we make a new Zelda game, we always look for a different approach, and looked for a long time. When it was time to make this game, I had the vague idea that in A Link to the Past, you could clear multiple dungeons in parallel. But when I played the game again, that wasn't very true.

Aonuma

That's right.

Shikata

So I thought it would be good to do that for this game and we made it so that when it comes to the seven dungeons in the latter half, you can go to any of them as you like.

Iwata

Instead of a single order, you can take them in any order.

Shikata

Right. But that came with a number of problems.

Iwata

It would break down the structure of the games so far.

Shikata

Right. In Zelda games, you go into a dungeon, get a new item, and use that item to find the next new dungeon.

Aonuma

The traditional Zelda formula.

Shikata

That's why there always ended up being a set order, but this time I worried over it for a long time, which brings us back to rethinking the conventions of Zelda. Aonuma-san, take over for me.

Aonuma

Okay. (laughs) First, we talked about being able to buy all sorts of items in a shop.

Iwata

Then you could beat any dungeon.

Aonuma

Yes. But when we talked about the prices, we realized cheap prices would allow players to easily get all the items, and then they wouldn't need rupees anymore.

Iwata

You'd never want to cut grass to gather rupees.

Aonuma

Right. But on the other hand, if we made the prices high, then you wouldn't make any progress.

Iwata

Right.

Aonuma

So we wondered what to do, and what provided a hint was a certain hobby I've been obsessed with-but I won't say exactly what it is.

Iwata

All right. (laughs)

Aonuma

To play it, you need all kinds of equipment, and getting them all in the beginning is really hard.

Iwata

And it would be expensive.

Aonuma

Right. But there are places where you can rent everything for beginners who don't have the equipment. Then you feel like giving it a try.

Iwata

Ok.

Aonuma

So I tried it once, and it was a blast! So then...(forcefully) you want it! You want your own gear!!

Iwata

I see. (laughs) Did you buy your own gear?

Aonuma

Yeah. I shelled out to get one after another. Then, I was so happy to think these were my own! (laughs)

Iwata

In other words, you got obsessed. (laughs)

Aonuma

Totally. (laughs)

Everyone

(laughs)

Aonuma

I thought we could use that in this Zelda game. I thought if players started by renting items cheaply, then they would want their own and work hard to collect rupees!

Shikata

Some have said they worked hard to collect rupees but then didn't have any way to use them.

Aonuma

Then everyone had lots of ideas—like making personal items upgradable—so we decided to run with it.

Iwata

You choose whichever dungeon you like, you go in, and even if you get stuck, you can rent an item and go conquer a different dungeon.

Aonuma

Right. That kind of gameplay never existed before in the history of The Legend of Zelda.

Iwata

I wondered where the idea for the rental system came from, and it came from your own personal hobby! (laughs)

Aonuma

That's right! (laughs)

A Challenge from the Developers
Iwata

You can rent the appropriate items for each dungeon and beat them in any order, but you have to return the items you rent sometime.

Shikata

Yes. For example, you might set a timer and know you have to return it the next morning when the rooster crows.

Aonuma

We thought of all sorts of ideas for what happens when players don't return the items-like late fees-but nothing seemed to fit.

Iwata

What did you do?

Aonuma

We decided to have the item return on its own if you're defeated and it's game over. That's a little like The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask.19 (laughs)19. The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask: An action-adventure game released for the Nintendo 64 system in April 2000. Players had to clear it in three days of in-game time. When players saved, the clock turned back to the first day, some supplies disappear, and the player's number of rupees returns to zero.

Iwata

I see.

Aonuma

And once you've rented an item, you don't want to return it, so you work really hard not to be defeated.

Iwata

If there's a clear drawback to being defeated, that adds tension to gameplay.

Aonuma

Exactly. Also, in some previous games in the series you get sent back to the entrance after you're defeated. If you make it all the way deep into the dungeon and then get plopped back out front...

Iwata

You lose enthusiasm.

Aonuma

So another theme this time was making sure that players don't lose their desire to try again.

Shikata

So even if you get defeated, you can borrow an item again right away, and there are warp points in the dungeons. Even in the field, we put in a way that you can warp between places that are close to where you want to go.

Aonuma

It's become easier to go around the game world.

Iwata

This Zelda game allows the player more freedom since you moved away from the one-track approach of previous games and rethought the conventional aspects of the series. Lastly, from your respective positions, would you comment on what you want players to check out? Let's start with Takahashi-san.

Takahashi

All right. This time, you journey back and forth between Hyrule and Lorule. In design, we paid attention to the contrast between those worlds.

Iwata

You want players to enjoy comparing the two worlds.

Takahashi

Yes. Characters in Hyrule may have a different role in Lorule, and while the arrangement of the buildings is the same, the shapes and materials can be completely different. We made it so you can enjoy the contrast, so I hope people will discover the differences while thoroughly adventuring through the landscape of those worlds.

Tominaga

We made this game based on the landscape of A Link to the Past, but we completely redesigned the dungeons. And we've packed in a lot of new content that didn't exist before, so I hope people will enjoy it.

Iwata

This isn't a remake, it's a new game that serves as a sort of sequel.

Tominaga

Absolutely. In a meeting, Aonuma-san said that this game has both newness and familiarity. Just as he said, I think this turned out to be a game that new players as well as fans of A Link to the Past can enjoy, so I hope everyone will try it out.

Mouri

I hope people will check out how great 60fps looks, how easy it is to play, and how comfortable it feels.

Iwata

You paid a lot of attention to that and stuck with it! (laughs)

Mouri

Yeah. (laughs) Also, you can use StreetPass20 this time. This of course wasn't in the previous game.20. StreetPass: A feature that allows users who enable it to walk around with their Nintendo 3DS system turned on to exchange certain game data with other Nintendo 3DS users whom they pass on the street that also have StreetPass enabled. You are also able to StreetPass with those who have visited various Nintendo Zones before you.

Iwata

What can players do with StreetPass?

Mouri

You can  battle against people you pass. If you win, you get gobs of rupees, so you can buy expensive items, or upgrade your items, so I hope people will pass lots of people.

Shikata

I hope people who have never played The Legend of Zelda will play it. As mentioned before, you can play multiple dungeons in parallel, and if you get stuck somewhere, there's always another approach ready for you to try, so if you don't give up, anyone can make it all the way to the end. And you can use the Play Coins21 you get for walking around with your Nintendo 3DS  to hear hints, so I really hope beginners will enjoy it.21. Play Coins: Virtual coins for use inside Nintendo 3DS games. Users who walk around with their Nintendo 3DS system receive one coin per 100 steps, for a maximum of 10 per day and a maximum total of 300.

Iwata

And of course you recommend it to people who already love The Legend of Zelda games.

Shikata

Of course! We put in a lot of gameplay elements that people can play with like item power-ups. And once you've cleared it, we've prepared a tough mode with stronger enemies, so I think people who have played previous Zelda games will find it incredibly rewarding.

Aonuma

We made this game with the idea of rethinking the conventions of Zelda games, and we truly did take on all kinds of challenges. The ones who undertook that were younger developers, and during development, I often exclaimed, "We can do that?!"

Iwata

You thought so, too? "We can do that?!" (laughs)

Aonuma

Yeah! (laughs) Earlier, we discussed the Tower of Hera and how there's a mechanism you hit with the Hammer in order to jump. When Link flies up and the visuals switch automatically to the upper floor I thought, just like you, "We can do that?!" Afterward as well, the ideas everyone came up with often made me think, "We can do that?!" But while this is a new Zelda game, it will also make you think, "Oh, this truly is The Legend of Zelda!"

Iwata

It's a Zelda game no matter who looks at it, but it's also new.

Aonuma

Right.

Iwata

Listening to you talk today, I got a strong sense for how this Zelda game wouldn't have come to be if it weren't for the Nintendo 3DS platform. The developers took on various challenges, as if solving puzzles in Zelda games, so it must have felt great when as a result, the pieces came together and you found the correct answer! (laughs) As if that chime that rings when you solve a puzzle had rung inside your heads.

Aonuma

That's right. (laughs)

Iwata

In a way, that is the real thrill of being a developer, so today I was able to hear a lot of stories about the satisfaction of achieving a sense of conviction that you've made something good.

Shikata

Um, I forgot to mention something.

Iwata

Yes?

Shikata

There are quite a lot of minigames.

Aonuma

Like the  baseball game! (laughs)

Iwata

Baseball? In a Zelda game? (laughs)

Aonuma

That's right! (laughs) Like in a batting center, Link holds a bat and hits. It has nothing to do with the main game! (laughs)

Iwata

(laughs)

Shikata

Another one is  a minigame with cuccos. It's easy at first, but the difficulty gradually increases. I couldn't clear the highest level. I don't think anyone on the staff did. I suppose after release only a few people in the world will...

Iwata

You made it that challenging?!

Mouri

I asked Mario Club22, and no one could clear the hardest level.22. Mario Club Co., Ltd.: It conducts debugging and testing on Nintendo software during development.

Shikata

So if anyone clears the highest level, be sure to brag!

Iwata

Here at the end, the developers offer a challenge!

Everyone

(laughs)

Iwata

Job well done, everyone.

Everyone

Thank you.

(2015)
This interview features Tomomi Sano, Tomohiro Yamamura, Eiji Aonuma, and Mikiharu Ooiwa.

Prior to the interview, Satoru Iwata includse a note of the following:

Hello everyone, this is Satoru Iwata of Nintendo.

Since we weren't able to reveal any new Iwata Asks interviews at all last year, it's really been a while to be able to share with you a new interview.

Last year I fell ill and had undergone surgery. Many of you were probably wondering if my illness was the reason for us not revealing any new Iwata Asks. But to be honest, I've been thinking about taking a break from it so I could recharge, even before I found out about my condition.

From about the end of last year I started thinking about bringing it back up on the table again, and was wondering what would be the right title to bring it back with. It was at that time when I saw people's strong reactions to our announcement that we're making a remake to The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask. I was surprised by those reactions, but now I knew what that title would be.

I hope we can do a good job in trying to convey even a portion of the secrets of a game that deeply struck so many people's hearts. It has become quite a lengthy interview, but I hope you'll follow through to the very end.

Make it in a Year
Iwata

At long last, you've finished making the game.

Aonuma

Yeah, it was quite a lengthy process.

Iwata

The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask1 that was originally released for the Nintendo 64 console was released almost exactly 15 years ago, so I have a feeling Aonuma-san has forgotten some bits and pieces.1. The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask (Nintendo 64): An action adventure game released for the Nintendo 64 console in April 2000. The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask 3D is a remake of this game.

Aonuma

Well it's more than bits and pieces. I've forgotten quite a bit! (laughs)

Iwata

First let's start by asking you about the Nintendo 64 version. If I remember correctly, the development for Majora's Mask began when somebody requested that it be made in one year.

Aonuma

You're right. Since we already made The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time2, we had 3D models that we invested a lot of time in to build. This all started by (Shigeru) Miyamoto-san asking whether we could make a game in one year if we repurpose the models. But we were already talking about trying to make Master Quest3 for Nintendo 64DD4.2. The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time: An action adventure game released for the Nintendo 64 console on Nov. 21, 1998. The story of Majora's Mask takes place a few months after the story of Ocarina of Time. Its game system and graphics were also used for Majora's Mask.3. Master Quest: A special hard mode of the original The Legend of Zelda prepared for those that have cleared the game. The Ocarina of Time: Master Quest was originally developed as a software for the Nintendo 64DD, however this was not released as a Nintendo 64DD title but was later distributed on a special bonus disc for those that have pre-ordered The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker (released Mar. 2003 in North America for GameCube console).4. Nintendo 64DD: A peripheral for the Nintendo 64 console sold by RandnetDD. By plugging in this Disc Drive underneath the console, it allowed the system to expand and rewrite a large amount of data storage. This product was in the market only in Japan from 1999 to 2001.

Iwata

At the time when Ocarina of Time came out, there was a plan in the works of releasing Master Quest for 64DD.

Aonuma

Correct. We were told to repurpose the dungeons from Ocarina of Time and make a game out of it, and I was handed the baton to make that happen.

Iwata

Uh-hm.

Aonuma

However, when we made Ocarina of Time, we made those dungeons thinking they were the best we could make. That's when Miyamoto-san asked me to remake them, so I hesitantly obliged...but I couldn't really get into it.

Iwata

To Aonuma-san, you just made the ultimate dungeon, so you didn't want to ruin a perfect formula.

Aonuma

Exactly! So I secretly started making new dungeons that weren't in Ocarina of Time, and that was much more fun to me. So, I grew up the courage to ask Miyamoto-san whether I could make a new game, he replied by saying it's ok if I can make it in a year.

Iwata

Didn't Ocarina of Time take three years to make?

Aonuma

It did.

Iwata

I remember those days very well. Ocarina of Time came out on November 21st, 1998. At around that time I was working on finishing up Smash Bros.5 that was due out in January. I was at the Nintendo Kyoto headquarters for a meeting to prepare for its launch, and I bought Ocarina of Time on my way home.5. Super Smash Bros.: An action multiplayer game released in Jan. 1999 for the Nintendo 64 console. This game was developed by HAL Laboratory. Mr. Iwata was the president of HAL Laboratory at the time, and contributed in programming development for the game.

Aonuma

Thank you so much! (laughs)

Iwata

So I actually feel like we were working very hard around the same time so I remember it very well. Eventually Ocarina of Time came to be considered the pinnacle of 3D games and was praised all over the world, but on the other hand some people were asking why Zelda games only come out once every three years.

Aonuma

Right, the game's release date was delayed several times.

Iwata

Talking about release delays...that made me remember when Miyamoto-san told me about a time when he visited Kanazawa to go to his school that he graduated from while he was working on Ocarina of Time. While he was there he stopped by a convenience store. Then the store clerk noticed Miyamoto-san and actually got mad at him saying "Miyamoto-san! What are you doing here at a time like this"! (laughs)

Aonuma

(laughs) That clerk must have really been waiting for the game to come out!

Iwata

After making stories like that, Ocarina of Time was finally released after multiple delays. With key learnings like how it took too long for it to come out, Miyamoto-san must have wanted the next game to come out much sooner, like in one year.

Aonuma

I think so.

Iwata

So how did you respond when he asked you to make it in a year? Did you say, "Sure, I can do it"?

Aonuma

No, I was holding my head!

Iwata

I'm sure that you were! (laughs)

Aonuma

I rolled and turned thinking what kind of software I should make, and when I met (Yoshiaki) Koizumi-san6 around that time, I asked for his help. He was working on a plan for a different game at the time, one where you would play in a compact game world over and over again. Coincidentally, Ocarina of Time had a system that controlled the time...6. Yoshiaki Koizumi: Codirected The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask for the Nintendo 64 console with Eiji Aonuma. After Majora's Mask, he was involved in the development of 3D Super Mario games such as Super Mario Sunshine (2002), Super Mario Galaxy (2007), as well as Flipnote Studio (2009). Currently works in the EAD Tokyo Software Development Department. He appeared in past Iwata Asks columns such as Iwata Asks: Super Mario 25th Anniversary Volume 3: Super Mario Developers, Iwata Asks: Super Mario Galaxy Volume 1: The Producer and Director, Iwata Asks: Super Mario Galaxy 2-Volume 2, Iwata Asks: Nintendo DSi Volume 7: Flipnote Studio, Iwata Asks: The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time 3D Original Development Staff-Part 1, Iwata Asks: Super Mario 3D Land Volume 2: The Producers, and Iwata Asks: Super Mario 3D World.

Iwata

The sun rose, and there was nightfall. The concept of time existed in that game.

Aonuma

Right, so Koizumi-san told me that he would help me out if he could use that system of time passing to make a game where you would be playing the same moments in time over and over again.

Iwata

That...sounds like you're bartering within the company! (laughs)

Aonuma

(laughs) From there, the "Three-Day System"7 was born. It's where you would be playing the same three days over and over again.7. Three-Day System: When three days pass in-game, the moon will fall and destroy the world, therefore this is a system where the player has to control time and repeat those three days over and over again to complete the game.

Iwata

You needed a completely new idea to make something in such a short turnaround like one year, and that was the "Three-Day System".

Aonuma

Right. But at first, it was one week.

Iwata

Three days was originally one week?

Aonuma

That's right. But when you returned to the first day it was like "Do I have to go through an entire week again...", so we thought three days would be just right.

Iwata

Wait, it got decided just like that? (laughs)

Aonuma

(laughs) In this game the townspeople do different things each day and many different things happen, but when the timespan becomes a week, that's just too much to remember. You can't simply remember who's where doing what on which day.

Iwata

Moreover, you probably wouldn't have been able to make it in a year if you were aiming to make a game filled with so much content for seven days.

Aonuma

Right, we never would have been able to do it. We felt it would be best to make it a three-step process, and we compressed all sorts of things we had planned for over a week into three days.

Iwata

That's how it led to the game feeling like it's packed to the gills with content. You squished all sorts of ideas you were originally planning to use in a week into only three days.

Aonuma

I think so.

From Hospitality to a Challenge
Iwata

By the way, why masks?

Aonuma

The development of Ocarina of Time was so long, we were able to put in a whole lot of different elements into that game. Out of those, there were ideas that weren't fully utilized, and ones that weren't used to their full potential. One of those was the mask salesman8.8. The mask salesman: In the story of Majora's Mask, he says he is the original owner of Majora's Mask. He asks Link to retrieve Majora's Mask which was stolen by Skull Kid. He may seem laid-back; however there is a scary essence about his personality that is hard to read. He also acts as a guide for the Japanese Official The Legend of Zelda account (@ZeldaOfficialJP). There's also a Happy Mask Salesman that appears in Ocarina of Time, but if they are the same person remains a mystery.

Iwata

When Link wears the masks, sometimes the reactions of whoever he's talking to change.

Aonuma

That's right. So in Majora's Mask we felt it would be fun if Link himself transforms whenever he puts on those masks.

Iwata

Before that Link was never able to transform.

Aonuma

Right. As a basis of Zelda games, you're able to use items to do all sorts of different things, and we felt it would be a lot of fun if Link would acquire all these abilities by putting on these different masks. We felt that would expand the gameplay. So we made the game so Link could transform into Deku Link to fly in the air, Goron Link to roll across land, and Zora Link so that he could swim underwater. We also gave each of them a storyline.

Iwata

You covered land, sea and air! (laughs)

Aonuma

We did. Once we decided we were going with masks, everything just came into place.

Iwata

Like all the pieces coming together.

Aonuma

That's exactly it.

Iwata

It must have felt great when everything came into place.

Aonuma

Well, we really didn't have time so things had to fall in place! (laughs)

Iwata

That's true! (laughs) But that goes to show how a deadline's important.

Aonuma

I guess so. (laughs wryly) I'm not saying it's a case of "A cornered mouse will bite the cat", but we soldiered on with a mindset that we had to do it.

Iwata

I do know of many situations where things didn't go well because people were on such tight deadlines. But in the case of Majora's Mask, it seem to me that having less time actually benefited its development.

Aonuma

Right.

Iwata

Why did that happen?

Aonuma

Even with Ocarina of Time, we didn't go out making it thinking it would take three years to make. Really. But then, we started to get focused in on the details...

Iwata

That's why the release date moved every time you were asked about it, and Miyamoto-san got yelled at in a convenience store! (laughs)

Aonuma

I guess so! (laughs) At that time we were making Ocarina of Time wanting to be really proud of our work. We wanted to go out with it with our chests up high, harking to the world that this is the 3D Zelda game. We really were making the game with all our hearts into it. Even if it took a long time, we wanted to put in everything we had.

Iwata

As a result of that, you ran into a situation where you made a lot of delicious dishes but had run out of places on the table to put them on.

Aonuma

We did. Because of that, there was a sense of unfulfillment among the staff, where a lot of us wanted to do things differently with certain elements from Ocarina of Time, and also wanting to do things they weren't able to before. If we gathered all new staff to work on it, it would have been impossible to make in only one year.

Iwata

You were fueled by your regrets of what you made but weren't able to fully use to fruition. Because you were fueled by it, you were able to put on a bunch of new ideas on top of the "Three-Days System" and they all fit together nicely. That's why you were able to make something with so much content in only a year.

Aonuma

I suppose so. Also...I was younger back then.

Iwata

It's been 15 years.

Aonuma

At the time when I was told I had to make it in a year, I was extremely focused on thinking how great it would be if we could make it happen, and how disappointed I would be if I couldn't do it. I started working on the game with that kind of mindset, but towards the end of the game's development, we had to work under severe time constraints. That's when Miyamoto-san told me that we could delay the game's release. That's when I...

Iwata

Did you get angry?

Aonuma

I did! I got mad. I said to him, pretty loudly, "There's no way we can do that now!"

Iwata

Oh wow! (laughs)

Aonuma

I also remember telling him "We'll definitely make this in one year!" Looking back at it now, I said something unbelievable to my boss!

Iwata

You really were young! (laughs)

Aonuma

Yeah. Miyamoto-san did tell us to make it in a year but he must have been concerned towards the end.

Iwata

He must have been worried that you were all exhausted.

Aonuma

I suppose. And at that time, I did have a sense that I was being pushed on by something strange.

Iwata

You may have been wearing one of those masks! (laughs)

Aonuma

I had a dream about it.

Iwata

What kind of a dream was it?

Aonuma

It was a dream about being chased by a Deku.

Iwata

Oh, a dream where you were being chased around? (laughs)

Aonuma

I was thinking about an event for the Deku, and have been trying to figure out what to do with it. I thought of it at home, and Dekus appeared in my dream. I woke up screaming! I went to work the next day and that's when (Takumi) Kawagoe-san9 told me that he finished making a  movie for the Dekus, so I had him show it to me....and that movie was exactly like my dream!9. Takumi Kawagoe: Works in Software Planning & Development Department of Nintendo. He was in charge of Cinematic Sequence for The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask for Nintendo 64 console. He appeared in Iwata Asks: Twilight Princess and Iwata Asks: The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time 3D Original Development Staff-Part 1.

Iwata

(laughs)

Aonuma

I even told him "how do you know my dream?" (laughs) That's how put up against the edge I was back then.

Iwata

Perhaps you were possessed by something.

Aonuma

Possibly.

Iwata

By the way, the reaction when we announced The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask 3D10 was amazing, right?10. Announcement of The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask 3D: The release of this game was announced globally on Nintendo Direct 11.5.2014.

Aonuma

It sure was.

Iwata

We never worked on a remake for Majora's Mask until now, so we did go in thinking that the reactions would be somewhat positive. But to be honest, the reactions we received were much stronger than we had anticipated. Why do you think that was the case?

Aonuma

I think that's because Majora's Mask is the kind of game that presents players with a challenge.

Iwata

What? It's a challenge to our customers? (laughs)

Aonuma

When we talked about The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time11 in a previous Iwata Asks, we talked about hospitality.11. The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time 3DS: This is an action adventure game released for the Nintendo 3DS console on June 2011.

Iwata

It was about "hospitality on the attack12".12. Hospitality on the attack: Mentioned in Iwata Asks: The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time 3D Original Development Staff-Part 2. The developers stated than when they replayed the Ocarina of Time for Nintendo 64 to get references for remaking the game for the 3DS, they mentioned that they "sensed an immense amount of hospitality" when they played through it for the first time in a while.

Aonuma

But Majora's Mask isn't like that. It's all a challenge to our players. It's like we're saying to them "can you clear this?"

Iwata

It shifted from hospitality to a challenge.

Aonuma

It was something like until then you were welcomed with open arms being invited to come in, and now you're being told at the door to go home if you don't have what it takes! (laughs)

Iwata

That might be true. When I played the game when it came out, it was like the game itself was screaming out to me, questioning me whether I had the dedication to play forward.

Aonuma

That's because we didn't put in any kind of elements where we show people how to play this game. The game was made for those who have played Ocarina of Time, so I felt like there wasn't a need for step-by-step instructions.

Iwata

It was like "clear it if you can".

Aonuma

So those who have played it still strongly remember how the game felt like it was a challenge, even though 15 years had passed. That's probably why it led to such a strong reaction.

Iwata

I see. Well, let's end talking about the Nintendo 64 version, and start talking about this new game.

Aonuma

Sure!

Didn’t Want to Open That Lid
Iwata

Thank you so much for your patience everyone. Shall we start with introductions?

Ooiwa

I'm Mikiharu Ooiwa of GREZZO Co., Ltd.13 I wasn't from the beginning, but I was tasked on the role of director for Majora's Mask 3D.13. GREZZO: A game development company established in 2006 based in Tokyo. After developing The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time 3D, they worked on The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask 3D. For more details on Ocarina of Time 3D, visit Iwata Asks: The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time 3D Development Staff.

Iwata

What do you mean by "tasked on"?

Aonuma

I requested that a director role be made mid way during development. For a while I didn't think there was a need for one.

Iwata

Ah, I get it. At first, you thought you didn't need a director since this game had an original to work off of.

Aonuma

There was no director when we made Ocarina of Time 3D. But that wasn't the case at all when we started working on this game! (laughs)

Ooiwa

That's right! (laughs)

Iwata

Aonuma-san, I don't think we need you to introduce yourself at this point. (laughs) So Yamamura-san, take it away.

Yamamura

Hi, I'm Tomohiro Yamamura of the Software Planning & Development Department (SPD). I worked as the liaison on the SPD side. My job was to compile Aonuma-san's wishes on what he wants to do with the game in an easy to understand way, tell that to Ooiwa-san at GREZZO, taking Ooiwa-san's response, review it myself to see if it's ok, then relay that info back to Aonuma-san.

Iwata

You basically worked as the interpreter even though everyone spoke Japanese.

Yamamura

I guess so! (laughs) I really was an interpreter.

Sano

Hi there, I'm Tomomi Sano, also from SPD. Like Yamamura-san, I worked as the Nintendo liaison for this title. Although for me, I joined during the latter half of development so most of the components were already finished. So my role was to review the existing issues with the game that were found by Mario Club14, and if there were moments where it seemed like the game was putting on too much of a challenge like what they were saying just a while ago, I went over those areas from a player's perspective and made recommendations on whether we should fix certain issues or leave them as is since they add as a part of the challenging flavor to the game.14. Mario Club: A company that debugs and tests Nintendo games in development.

Aonuma

You say "from a player's perspective" Sano-san, but that's exactly the case since you actually played the Nintendo 64 version yourself when it was out, as one of our customers. So whenever I wondered what it would feel like from a fan, I always asked Sano-san.

Sano

I was originally a fan of the Nintendo 64 version so I played it when it was out, but...I was one of those that lost the challenge! (laughs)

Iwata

You couldn't clear the game?

Sano

Unfortunately, no.

Iwata

Well, so let me ask the group; how did recreating that "challenging" game Majora's Mask get started?

Aonuma

Here again, it came from Miyamoto-san. He told me one day "let's release Majora's Mask for Nintendo 3DS." Sano-san mentioned how she lost the challenge, and I think Miyamoto-san feels quite strongly that there are quite a lot of people like her, who gave up on the Nintendo 64 version part way through the journey. He probably felt that it was such a shame in how we put in so much in the game, but then people aren't able to see them because they weren't able to get there. Of course, we were the ones who challenged the players if they could clear these mysteries in the first place! (laughs)

Iwata

Well, it did turn from hospitality into a challenge! (laughs)

Aonuma

Well, when I was told that by Mr. Miyamoto, all I could say was "you're absolutely right." An added benefit of releasing it for the Nintendo 3DS was that if you get stuck somewhere in the game, you could just close the lid and put it in sleep mode15, so it was all the more reason to work on Majora's Mask. However, I couldn't just simply say "yes, I'll do it."15. Sleep mode: This mode is when a 3DS console is closed shut while it is on. By doing so, the device will save energy, making it easier to continue playing games after the console is opened up again.

Iwata

Now why is that?

Aonuma

I said this before, but it was one of those games where I was able to do quite a bit because I was much younger.

Iwata

Right.

Aonuma

So I didn't want to open that lid again! (laughs)

Iwata

What do you mean you didn't want to open the lid! (laughs)

Aonuma

I knew that as soon as I opened it I would break out in cold sweat! (laughs)

Everyone

(laughs)

Iwata

So Aonuma-san, you wanted to keep it closed forever?

Aonuma

As in a "please pretend it didn't happen" kind of way! (laughs) Of course we're not allowed to pretend that it didn't happen, but I didn't want to work on another iteration. But I was met by Miyamoto-san's firm "nope".

Iwata

He told you to make it in a year for the Nintendo 64 version, and told you to not run away for the 3DS version. Miyamoto-san's such a strict man! (laughs)

Aonuma

Miyamoto-san also told me to play everything over again and ask myself if everything was all right the way it was. He wanted me to check every aspect of the game, and adjust it to where players today can enjoy it.

Iwata

That's like putting salt on your wounds. (laughs)

Aonuma

It's an old wound from 15 years ago! (laughs) So, I put up enough courage to play everything over again.

Iwata

As you were breaking out in cold sweat? (laughs)

Aonuma

Right! (laughs) But then I found a bunch of things that made me say "what in the world?!"

Iwata

"What in the world?" (laughs) It's not something you typically say to something you created.

Aonuma

Usually Zelda games are made in a way that whenever you get a hunch that there's something on the other side of the curve, that hunch will be enough for you to gather up enough willpower to move forward, even when there's a rough road ahead. But in the case of this Nintendo 64 version of Majora's Mask, when you think there's something ahead and you get there, there's nothing. There are no answers there that you were hoping to find.

Iwata

At that point you'd give up.

Aonuma

Yeah. There even are some things where there are no hints at all. There were quite a few things that no one was able to find.

Iwata

As Miyamoto-san said, it feels like such a waste when no one can find and experience what you spent a lot of effort on putting into the game.

Aonuma

Exactly. So thinking about it now, I must have been possessed at the time thinking what I've done.

Iwata

Sano-san, as one of the players, did you find those things in the game?

Sano

I think there were a lot. Like when you messed up something, you can accept that if it's because your skill wasn't good enough. But with that game there were parts where you didn't know why you couldn't clear certain areas. That made it hard to come to terms when you failed a challenge.

Iwata

"When something didn't work out, it's easy for players to admit that it's their own fault." That's the way games should be, and that should be the development philosophy here at Nintendo.

Aonuma

You're right. But that wasn't always the case with the Nintendo 64 version. It probably won't be a good idea if we had today's player try out the original version. So that's why we decided to make a "what in the world" list.

Iwata

So you decided to make a list of everything that Aonuma-san felt "what in the world?!"

Aonuma

That's right.

The "What in The World" List
Iwata

So development started when you passed on the "what in the world" list to Ooiwa-san at GREZZO?

Ooiwa

Well, we didn't have that list when we first started working on the game, so at first we played the Nintendo 64 version through and through. We started off by playing in a lot of different ways, captured video, and made a list. Then we heard from Aonuma-san that he wanted to add in new elements.

Iwata

So from the beginning, he wanted to put in new ways to play, rather than making a simple remake of the Nintendo 64 version.

Ooiwa

Exactly. So within our team we brainstormed on all sorts of new ideas that could be put into the game world of Majora's Mask. We presented our ideas to Miyamoto-san through Aonuma-san towards the end of 2011.

Iwata

That's about six months after Ocarina of Time 3D has been released. Didn't you get nervous having heard that you had to present to Miyamoto-san?

Ooiwa

Oh, my heart was pounding while waiting for the response! (laughs) But thankfully the presentation ended just fine. It was at a later time when we received the "what in the world" list, which to us was like a challenge of itself.

Iwata

What was then a challenge to the players was now a challenge to the developers.

Ooiwa

That's exactly it! (laughs)

Yamamura

That "what in the world" list was first drafted by Aonuma-san, which then I played those parts through to confirm, and had Mario Club play it out too. There were new "what in the world" things from those steps as well, and we compiled them all in one list.

Iwata

So the "what in the world" list went through an upgrade since it left Aonuma-san's hands.

Yamamura

Right! (laughs) (spread hands widely top to bottom, as if holding a big batch of paper) We handed it all to GREZZO and asked them "We have all these points that need to be addressed. From where should we get started?" That's when the real development began.

Ooiwa

When we had taken a look at the "what in the world" list, Aonuma-san's confessions were written everywhere! (laughs)

Iwata

Confessions? (laughs)

Aonuma

I wrote in a bunch of comments on where I thought things weren't good. Like, "I'm sorry that this comes from the one that made it this way, but..."

Ooiwa

That was on the top of every list.

Aonuma

And "At the time, I think there was something wrong with me..."

Ooiwa

He said something similar every time we had a meeting! (laughs)

Yamamura

"What in the world" was something that he said all the time! (laughs)

Aonuma

Every time a "what in the world" came up, I always apologized and made excuses on why I did what I did at the time. I was probably able to do that because I thoroughly replayed the game first, and that I had a clear idea on what needed to be accomplished.

Iwata

You were able to see a clear direction on how to create it for the Nintendo 3DS.

Aonuma

That's correct, but the sheer amount was astounding. Of course, at the time I must have been keeping an eye on everything, so I thought to myself why were there so many things that I wanted to fix.

Iwata

I also have a lot of things that I made in the past where I would do things differently if I had the chance! (laughs)

Aonuma

But I have so many! It's a lot! (laughs)

Iwata

Why are you saying it so proudly! (laughs)

Everyone

(laughs)

Aonuma

I knew I didn't want to open the lid from the get go, and it turned out that my instincts were correct.

Ooiwa

But think about it this way, you were able to fix every "what in the world" in the game because we had this opportunity.

Aonuma

I guess you're right. That's because there were people who were able to make things right... Thank you so much for all you've done.

Ooiwa

Oh no, you're very welcome! (laughs)

Iwata

How does it feel cleaning up after someone's mess?

Ooiwa

I always felt like it was a challenge bestowed upon our team because of the trust and rapport we established when we worked on Ocarina of Time 3D.

Iwata

Because you were trusted, you were given a challenge.

Aonuma

Right, I think because we had GREZZO work on the remake of Ocarina of Time 3D, they had a deep understanding of the program, so we knew they could get a clear understanding of Majora's Mask once they played it. A development approach like this one was only made possible because GREZZO worked on the remake of Ocarina of Time 3D.

Yamamura

They were also very passionate and were highly motivated to the task, even to the small details. So we were able to ask them to work on it with confidence.

Ooiwa

Thank you for the kind words, those words will further raise the motivations of all our team members!

Aonuma

You basically re-experienced what we've been through 15 years ago. We travelled from Ocarina of Time to Majora's Mask.

Ooiwa

Oh you're right. That's definitely true! (laughs)

Iwata

By the way, Aonuma-san, while you were working on Majora's Mask 3D, you were also working simultaneously on A Link Between Worlds16.16. The Legend of Zelda: A Link Between Worlds: An action adventure game released for 3DS consoles in Nov. 22 2013.

Aonuma

Right. To be honest, I wanted to only focus on working on Majora's Mask 3D if I could have.

Iwata

But A Link Between Worlds was a completely new game, unlike Majora's Mask 3D.

Aonuma

So eventually my hands got tied up, so I asked Ooiwa-san to take on the role of director, a role which I couldn't fill at the time.

Iwata

Ooiwa-san said that he was tasked on the role of director in the beginning of this interview, but now we find out how that came to be.

Ooiwa

Oh I see, that's how it all came to be.

Iwata

What? Ooiwa-san, you didn't know about it until now?

Ooiwa

No, I did not!

Aonuma

So as I was making A Link Between Worlds, I noticed things that could be put in Majora's Mask.

Iwata

Ah, I see.

Aonuma

I had it happen before. Whenever I work on multiple titles at once, I find things like that.

Iwata

So as you were checking off your "what in the world" list one by one, you also had to work on new themes that arose from them working on A Link Between Worlds.

Ooiwa

Exactly.

Iwata

It makes sense that it took so long to develop.

Aonuma

Because we worked on it for such a long time, we're told new things, like support for the New Nintendo 3DS17.17. New Nintendo 3DS: A new member of the Nintendo 3DS family. The New Nintendo 3DS XL was released on Feb. 13, 2015 in North America. New features such as Face-tracking 3D, the C-stick, and built-in amiibo support have been added, and also has more processing power compared to its predecessor. Click the following link for more information http://www.nintendo.com/3ds/new-nintendo-3ds/.

Iwata

Right! (laughs)

"Moon Gazing" With the C-Stick
Iwata

Ooiwa-san, when did you first hear about the New Nintendo 3DS system?

Ooiwa

We were already in the second half of the development stage. We finished the porting processes in general and were starting to incorporate the new challenging elements one by one. That's why we usually had our meetings at the GREZZO office in Tokyo around that time, but one day out of the blue, you had asked us, "How about having a meeting in Kyoto for a change?"

Iwata

Now that's a suspicious invitation! (laughs)

Ooiwa

It was! (laughs) However, at the time, we thought, "It isn't bad to have meetings in Kyoto once in a while." So we decided to take up the offer.

Iwata

At the time, you probably thought "Yes, we get to visit Kyoto for the first time in a long time!" all the while being oblivious to the workload that awaited you. (laughs)

Ooiwa

That's right! (laughs) After we got there, we were shown the New Nintendo 3DS.

Yamamura

The system wasn't announced yet, so we asked you to come all the way to Kyoto.

Aonuma

And when they arrived, I immediately requested to add a feature to spin the camera with the C-Stick18 in-game.18. C-stick:An analog stick newly added on the left side above the A B X Y buttons on New Nintendo 3DS consoles.

Ooiwa

I was surprised that you asked for such a request at that timing! (laughs)

Aonuma

Sorry about that, but I really wanted to move the camera around in this game. We integrated the free-to-control camera for the first time in The Legend of Zelda:The Wind Waker19, and from that experience I knew how well it felt when I was able to use that.19. The Legend of Zelda:The Wind Waker: An action adventure game released on Mar. 2003 for the GameCube console.

Ooiwa

So, after that I brought back a large task given by Aonuma-san. However, at the time, the New Nintendo 3DS system was still confidential, so we couldn't talk about it to most of our staff. We had to gather up a limited number of people, such as the programmers in charge, and worked on this task in a hush-hush manner.

Iwata

"Hush-hush", huh! (laughs)

Ooiwa

But thanks to integrating this feature, players can now see the icon of this game,  the Moon, while they move Link around.

Aonuma

And you couldn't do that in the Nintendo 64 version. You have an idea that the moon is falling lower, but you couldn't really see it.

Sano

You expect the Moon to look bigger on the third day, but you can't really see it. But now, you can enjoy gazing at the Moon whenever you want! (laughs)

Aonuma

It's really nice, isn't it? (laughs)

Iwata

But wasn't it hard to add the camera rotation feature after you had reached near the end of the development process?

Ooiwa

It was. After all, Majora's Mask has many types of programming that determines the camera controls.

Iwata

So it's a system where there are many different types of camera programs depending on the scene?

Yamamura

That's right. There are various types of camera programs that adjust to match different scenes like climbing ladders and flying as Deku Link. Even compared to Ocarina of Time, there are quite a number of them.

Ooiwa

This is why we had to experiment on an enormous scale of how we could combine the many camera programs with the camera controls of the C-stick.

Yamamura

Above that, we needed to consider Link's transformations. The default Link and Goron Link are different heights, so the height of the cameras are different, too.

Ooiwa

And by being able to moving the camera around freely, you're now able to see stuff that you weren't supposed to see...

Iwata

So those are the problems you faced when integrating the C-stick.

Ooiwa

Right, so unexpected problems appeared here and there, so it wasn't an easy task.

Iwata

I see. I think I learned another reason why developing this game took such a long time! (laughs)

Aonuma

But we gained a tremendous result for pulling through, didn't we?

Ooiwa

Definitely.

Aonuma

By being able to move the camera with the C-stick, we were able to clearly show that Majora's Mask was reborn.

Iwata

So although it was a hard task, the efforts paid off, and it was able to contribute greatly to the appeal of the game.

Ooiwa

I believe so.

Iwata

By the way, the New Nintendo 3DS has a face-tracking 3D feature20, but how well does that match up with Majora's Mask 3D?20. Face-tracking 3D:One of the new features of New Nintendo 3DS consoles. A camera automatically tracks and adjusts to where the user's face is, so the 3D will look stable even if they move around.

Aonuma

Well, when you play a Zelda game, you can't really sit still.

Iwata

It's true that you naturally start moving your body while you play a fun action game.

Aonuma

So for the Nintendo 3DS systems, the 3D effects looked blurry when I played with it. However, when I heard about the face-tracking 3D feature being integrated into the New Nintendo 3DS systems, I was really excited about this feature. When I was playing Ocarina of Time 3D, the 3D effects did get a little blurry occasionally, however this never happened when I played with the New Nintendo 3DS system, so I was able to play without stress, even with the 3D effects on.

Iwata

When you replay games that have already released with the New Nintendo 3DS system, doesn't it feel like you're playing a whole different game?

Aonuma

It does.

Iwata

When I first received a New Nintendo 3DS system, I first replayed Luigi's Mansion: Dark Moon for 3DS21, and thought, "Oh, this is a completely different game," and I felt that the appeal of other games that utilized 3D like Kid Icarus: Uprising22, Ocarina of Time 3D, Mario Kart 723, and Super Mario 3D Land24 improved drastically. It looked so good that it made me want to apologize for not having the 3D functions work this greatly when we first released the Nintendo 3DS system. Of course, such technology was not available when we released the original Nintendo 3DS, so it was impossible to integrate it at the time. I hope people will forget their expectations of 3D from the past, and replay on the New Nintendo 3DS systems the 3DS games they played before.21. Luigi's Mansion: Dark Moon for Nintendo 3DS: An action adventure game released on Mar. 2013 for Nintendo 3DS consoles.22. Kid Icarus: Uprising: An action shooting game released for Nintendo 3DS consoles in Mar. 2012.23. Mario Kart 7: An action racing game released for Nintendo 3DS consoles in Dec. 2011.24. Super Mario 3D Land: A 3D action game released for Nintendo 3DS consoles in Nov. 2011.

Aonuma

Yes, I agree that there is that much of a difference. Reeling the topic back to Majora's Mask 3D, I have to admit that it probably took so long to develop this game partially because we were waiting for the New Nintendo 3DS systems to arrive! (laughs)

Iwata

Oh, so that's how you'll explain why it took so long! (laughs) So you're saying that because you were waiting for the New Nintendo 3DS, you took some time in developing this game?

Aonuma

Well, it really doesn't get blurry when you spin the camera, and it really opened up the tight-spaced feeling players might have felt from the world of Majora's Mask. Because we spent so much time working on this game, we were able to have this pleasant encounter.

Iwata

Was there anything that improved with the stereoscopic view?

Yamamura

Basically, the world of Majora's Mask has a very complex design. From the buildings in the town to the dungeons, the stereoscopic views make it easier to detect your directions forward and backward, as well as above and below, so I believe it contributed to help players figure out where they need to go.

Aonuma

For example, when Deku Link flies, the stereoscopic view makes it easier to detect the location of where to land. So being able to view things stereoscopically has positively contributed to this game in many ways.

Ooiwa

The gyro sensor25 controls are really good, too. Come to think of it, wasn't Aonuma-san playing the mini game, Clock Town's Famous Archery Game, in a recently uploaded video?25. Gyro sensor: A sensor included in Nintendo 3DS, Nintendo 2DS and New Nintendo 3DS consoles which tracks the angle and the rotation speed of the console.

Aonuma

Ohhhh, that's right. Termina Quest26, right? (laughs)26. Eiji Aonuma's Termina Quest: A gameplay walk-through video posted on the Japanese official website for Majora's Mask 3D and the Japanese Nintendo official YouTube channel. The videos show Eiji Aonuma attempting mini games that are in Majora's Mask 3D.

Ooiwa

It only took you three tries to get a perfect score. I shouted "Yes!" when you accomplished that! (laughs)

Aonuma

To be honest, I was surprised myself. I was never able to get a perfect score in the Nintendo 64 version.

Iwata

Did the gyro controls work well with this game?

Aonuma

I believe so. The gyro control for the 3DS is very stable. Plus, the wonderful timing adjustments made by the developers of GREZZO most likely contributed to me getting a perfect score on the third try.

Ooiwa

We did make quite an amount of adjustments for the archery game. So, when I shouted "Yes!" that was also because I knew our adjustments worked! (laughs)

"Every Boss Stage is Weird"
Iwata

Sano-san, as a person that played the Nintendo 64 version of this game...and giving up on it, how did you think about the challenges in the newly created Majora's Mask 3D?

Sano

For this time, I did fail at the same scenes that I have failed at in the Nintendo 64 version. But, now I feel like it's because I'm not that skilled in playing video games to begin with, so I felt that I was able to accept defeat.

Iwata

So you've accepted your failures because you were convinced that they were your fault. That's why you were motivated to keep going.

Sano

Right. Also, in the Nintendo 64 version, there were scenes where I couldn't understand why I failed, so I couldn't get the motivation to keep trying. In the 3DS version, however, I felt that I rarely ran into these situations.

Aonuma

You feel that it's less unreasonable, right?

Sano

That's right. So, even if I never worked on this project and purchased this game as a consumer, I think I would enjoy the game because I can now understand my mistakes better.

Iwata

So it may sound impossible when the game is described as being as challenging as the Nintendo 64 version, and at the same time it may seem easier to play, but what it really means is that the unreasonableness of the Nintendo 64 version has been taken out, but the challenge is still there.

Aonuma

That's absolutely right. I repetitively told the staff to never make this game easier. For example, when you fight the bosses, I believe that you gain true satisfaction after you try many different things, and finally take the right steps to defeat it.

Iwata

Also, the thrill of not having enough time to get things done in three days is what defines this game, so if that's taken out it'll turn into an unmemorable game.

Sano

Well, if you clear the game without having the Moon fall from the sky at least once, it wouldn't leave a strong impression either.

Aonuma

I agree! (laughs)

Yamamura

From stuff like that, I think the staff was able to get a consensus of this game in the early stages of development. We spent a lot of time discussing what needs to be fixed, and what shouldn't.

Ooiwa

Based off of the "what in the world" list! (laughs)

Yamamura

Yeah. So for the sake of making it easier for the players to solve the riddles, an easy way is to present the obvious answers right in front of them, but we believed that that should never happen.

Iwata

If that happened, it wouldn't feel like you're doing the solving. Without the solving element, it cannot be a Zelda game, right?

Everyone

(Nods their heads in agreement.)

Iwata

If the challenges are easy, and the  "se-sa-me-sa~uce♪"27 sound effect plays in the background, you wouldn't feel happy at all! (laughs)27. "Se-sa-me-sa~uce♪" (go-ma-da-re~): Popular in Japan, this is the unofficial lyrics for the fanfare sound effect that plays when you find important items from places like treasure boxes in-game.

All

(Laughs)

Yamamura

So, instead of giving out or forcing the answers onto the players, we focused our energy on how well we can communicate the meanings of the missions to the players. By doing this, I think we were able to make the challenges more comprehendible while keeping the same level of challenge as the Nintendo 64 version.

Aonuma

A great example for this are the boss battles.

Ooiwa

That's right; Aonuma-san said that he wanted to change all of the boss battles.

Aonuma

I've been saying that all of the boss battles are weird. All of them. When you first face a boss, it is natural to start looking for its weakness so you can figure out where to attack it. However, in the Nintendo 64 version of this game, you couldn't see the weaknesses at all.

Iwata

This is because you created this game as a challenge for the users to figure it out themselves, right?

Aonuma

This would be all right if the users understood this while they were fighting. However, this turned into a game where players won by randomly attacking the boss, without really figuring out what was its weakness.

Ooiwa

I personally wanted to fix this too. After I found out we had the same concerns, we reconstructed the battles by focusing on making the objective easier to understand, ensuring that there is the "a-ha" moment for the players, and the strategic elements that are needed to take them down wherever possible.

Iwata

So, you've remade every single boss fight?

Aonuma

Every single one of them. However, their models are virtually the same as the Nintendo 64 version.

Yamamura

However, the bosses' movements and strategies to take them down have all changed, so it took about the same effort as creating the stages from scratch.

Iwata

Well you say that quite frankly, even though this is supposed to be a remake.

Yamamura

(Laughs) We put in that much effort in creating this game, so it should be more convenient to play for players that are new to this game. It should also be refreshing to play for those that have played the Nintendo 64 version.

Aonuma

So this time, the GREZZO development team really contributed above and beyond what it takes to make a remake.

Ooiwa

In addition to boss battles, we were able to share several ideas this time around, too.

Aonuma

But there were some suggestions that seemed to be over the top! (laughs)

Ooiwa

Oh, sorry about that! (laughs) You did keep us on track, though.

Aonuma

The development team had a lot of motivation, so when they showed me some of their ideas, I had to turn down quite a few of them because it was so over the top. On the other hand, they've also created things that we've never noticed from our end.

Ooiwa

This was mentioned earlier, but we thought it would be a waste if the players didn't discover the fun elements of the game, so we focused on every detail in the game when we were improving and adjusting the contents. For example, we made it so The Bombers28 will give you some hints, and improved The Bombers' Notebook29.28. The Bombers: The Bombers Secret Society of Justice's goal is to do good deeds and make people happy. Led by Jim, the society has five young boys as members.29. The Bombers' Notebook:This is an item that signifies your admission into the Bombers Secret Society of Justice. This notebook automatically fills in the schedules of troubled people.

Aonuma

The Bombers in Clock Town consist of five young boys, and they tell you that they're collecting information about the town. However, in the Nintendo 64 version, they didn't give you any useful information. So players might've thought, "What's the point of these kids?!" (laughs)

Iwata

How can you say that when you're their original creator? (laughs)

Everyone

(laughs)

Aonuma

So after I felt those regrets, we decided to make these kids more active in the 3DS version.

Ooiwa

There are many events that occur in the town, but it was easy to miss what was going on in the Nintendo 64 version.

Aonuma

And above that, events happen on a specific time, so if you're not in the area when the event happens, you will end your experience without ever knowing that such events existed.

Ooiwa

So this is why we had the Bombers give out hints.

Aonuma

Also, the Bombers' Notebook has improved quite a bit. The double screens on 3DS systems make it easy to read. You can get much more information out of it, and it now even has an alarm system that would alert you when specific events take place. That's really convenient, right?

Ooiwa

Right. Because they have finally realized their mission as a secret society, they actually started collecting information. (laugh)

Iwata

So now no one will think "What's the point of these kids?!" when they run into the Bombers in this version of the game.

Aonuma

My perspective about these kids completely changed. This time, I think, "Wow, you kids are quite useful!" (laughs)

Everyone

(laughs)

"Adding New Discoveries"
Iwata

By the way, Aonuma-san, it is very rare to create a new game from scratch in one year, especially for massive games like the Zelda series, but I haven't really heard of anyone taking three times as long as that original game either in order to make the remake.

Aonuma

Oh, I'm sorry about that! (laughs)

Iwata

Isn't that boast worthy, though?! (laughs)

Aonuma

Boast? Well, probably I shouldn't... (laughs)

Iwata

But after listening to you all today, I think I have a better understanding of why it took so long to finish this game.

Aonuma

Although this is technically a remake, we've crammed in a ton of new elements into this game.

Iwata

To close off this interview, I would like to ask each one of you to comment on what makes this game appealing. Can we start off with Sano-san?

Sano

Wait, I'm first?!! (laughs) Ummm...let's see...

Iwata

Well, you can ask someone else to take your turn too, only once though! (laughs)

Everyone

(laughs)

Sano

Well, if I do pass my turn with this group...

Iwata

...Wouldn't it be harder for you in the end?! (laughs)

Sano

You do have a point...this might sound repetitive, but we've made this game so that it's easier for players to find its charms they might have missed when they played the original, even if they've given up mid-way when they played the Nintendo 64 version. If you had some bitter experiences with the Nintendo 64 version...

Iwata

...you especially recommended this game to those that have had bitter experiences in the Nintendo 64 version?

Sano

Yes, that's what I'm trying to say! I personally had some sour and bitter experiences with the Nintendo 64 version, and the 3DS version successfully made me overcome them. So I hope players that are still lingering on their bitter experiences in the Nintendo 64 version will have a chance to experience the moment they overcome those feelings they had in the past.

Iwata

So you're telling them to experience that refreshing feeling by playing the renewed Majora's Mask 3D?

Sano

That's right. Also, I believe that some people that have never played the game before may be on the fence about playing after hearing rumors that Majora's Mask is a very challenging game. We've made some adjustments to make the gameplay experience feel smoother, so please don't shy away. Give it a shot if you're interested.

Aonuma

This time, you can solve challenges by not giving up!

Sano

If you try hard enough, you can reach the end of the game.

Iwata

In other words, it's still challenging, but you can overcome those challenges if you keep trying.

Sano

Right. I think you'll really cherish those moments when you go "Wow, I'm awesome!"

Iwata

Next up, Yamamura-san.

Yamamura

I think this is a highly satisfying game that wouldn't let down even the fans of the Nintendo 64 version. In addition to that, new players shouldn't feel that unreasonable hopelessness when they face challenges in this game. We've made it a really enjoyable experience, so I hope you'll play this as a brand new Zelda experience. There were many interesting elements already in the Nintendo 64 version, but GREZZO's development team included even more fun elements and...

Ooiwa

Um, I was actually planning to comment on that! (laughs)

Yamamura

Oh, sorry!

Aonuma

I guess both of you wanted to talk about the same thing! (laughs)

Everyone

(laughs)

Yamamura

Then I'll leave the rest to you, Mr. Ooiwa.

Ooiwa

Okay. Just as Yamamura-san was saying, our staff has included many new elements to this game. So I'm pretty sure that even those that have played the Nintendo 64 version will be surprised about the new things that were added. I hope players who own the New Nintendo 3DS XL30 will have a fun time discovering new things by using the C-stick.30. Owners of the original Nintendo 3DS system can enjoy this feature using the Circle Pad Pro accessory (sold separately).

Iwata

Looks like Aonuma-san's request to be able to move the camera with the C-Stick will come in handy while exploring.

Ooiwa

Right. The game, Majora's Mask 3D, runs on a three-day system, so you'll be repeating the same days over and over again. You might discover things you didn't notice on the first cycle during your second cycle, and you might keep finding more discoveries when you continue on your third and fourth cycles. It's one of those games that gives off more flavor the more you sink your teeth into it, so I hope you fully enjoy this experience that no other game can offer.

Iwata

Thank you very much Ooiwa-san. To close it off, I'll leave it to you, Aonuma-san.

Aonuma

When I finished creating Majora's Mask for the Nintendo 64, I assumed that other companies would be releasing games similar to this one. But in reality, no one did.

Iwata

I certainly haven't seen anything like this anywhere else.

Aonuma

Even 15 years after the Nintendo 64 version of this game released, no one created a game like this. Because of this, the unique taste and feel of this game seems to exist for a long time...

Iwata

So, a game that's timeless?

Aonuma

I believe so. So even if people of this generation play this game, I think they can find something that will call out to their hearts, and have a fresh experience that they can gain something from. So I hope many people will play this game, to have an experience that can only be gained by playing Majora's Mask 3D.

Iwata

By the way, there were some unexpected confessions made by Aonuma-san today...

Aonuma

Yes! (laughs)

Iwata

But I was glad that you were able to "open the lid" again.

Aonuma

I agree. I'm really glad I did. I was fortunate to work with great developers, and thanks to this experience, I've overcome some of my personal bittersweet experiences.

Iwata

So Sano-san's bitter experience as a player, and your bitter experience as a developer have disappeared after this experience! (laughs)

Aonuma

That's right. My traumas from 15 years ago have finally disappeared! (laughs)

Iwata

I also believe that by playing Majora's Mask 3D, many people would now fully understand the appeal of this game. Thank you all for your hard work on this long-term project.

Everyone

Thank you very much.