Talk:Imprisoning War

Just wondering, what's the reason that the references I'd added were removed? —Adam (talk) 16:38, 13 February 2008 (EST)

Usefulness
Does anyone else think it's odd that nearly this entire article is devoted to the plot of Ocarina of Time? Wouldn't it be prudent to just refer to Ocarina of Time instead? This article is written in-universe, does not cite sources, we don't even know if the Imprisoning War mentioned in the ALttP manual is the same as the fight against Ganon in OoT, and seems altogether wasteful. I propose an overhaul, one stating the facts about the War how it pertains to gamers, and the games. Saibh 16:20, 21 March 2008 (EDT)
 * I agree completely, especially since I am one of the ones who disagree that Ocarina of Time is the imprisoning war, since I am one of the people who think that ALttP is on the child story line and therefore Ocarina of Time has no imprisoning war. I believe that the only other possible choice fitting the description is FSA--Magnus orion 21:40, 29 March 2008 (EDT)

but that can't be right....you hear about the imprisoning war in ALttP....its manual talks about it...and FSA doesnt match the bill either since Ganon already transformed and the imprisoning war states ganon was human then touched the triforce.....although one thing bugs me about the manuals description it never mentions the master sword being used against ganon it just says they tried to find a hero to give it to....also it says the knights held off ganon until the sages could imprison him.....so now I finally see where you think FSA fits in because of the knights but maybe if ALttP is i nthe child timeline...what game had the imprisoning war....Twilight Princess?


 * Well, In my timeline (see my user page), FSA is in the child timeline, since the foursword cant be found and vatti can't escape after the flood. Also, I can't tell if you're arguing or not, but if you are, I would like to ask you how. You appear to making the claim that FSA isn't the game and then stating that OoT is, even though it also has problems fitting the bill, or that another game (with even less relation to the imprisinoning war) might be it. Btw I never played FSA. I'm just trying to make everything fit. The biggest problem is taking Ganondorf and putting him in the dark world, and then reconciling with TWW.--Magnus orion 22:15, 17 April 2008 (UTC)


 * ...This isn't a timeline debate. Saibh 13:51, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks saibh but it kinda has to be since its part of the storyline and the storyline spans across more than one century --Remo 14:01, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

so whats the deal here....this page is about the sealing war...not theories on the sealing war.....unless I hear someone responding to this with an objection I will be very tempted to erase almost all the content on this page...im sorry but I already talked to the one who wrote it and they never answered back...so I just think its time to fix it. and if I dont here..anything..im just gonna change it.....then when people complain they can change it back I don't care --Remo 09:02, 5 May 2008 (UTC)


 * This article is a good theory. But it is just that, a theory. It should be stated that the content on the article is only one possible explanation of many.--Matt 11:55, 5 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Yeah, this guy posted another extensive (and quite inaccurate) theory here, which provoked a monumental row here. In an attempt to avoid a recurrence here, I avoided objecting in principle, and instead suggested citation of sources. This was rejected/ignored. Do what you will to improve it however you see fit! --Adam 17:39, 5 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Following the recent edits, I'm still concerned that the article is quite theory-heavy. Although the link to the ZeldaLegends translation is great, it seems to me that what the article is in desperate need of is some serious citation of sources, particularly for the first (descriptive) section. See Hyrulean Civil War for an example. --Adam 12:49, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

I was just thinking as a theory this DID happen after Oot. Perhaps when Linkwas sent back in time Zelda and Link told the story to the King. so, the King sent the Sages to seal Ganon-while Young Link was currently looking for Navi in Majora's Mask. Just a thought though...ZeldaGirl96 13:41, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Realization
Obviously I wasn't clear before but what I realize now is that the only way for ALttP's manual about the seal war to work is if Ganon has the triforce of Power. But if ALttP is supposed to be in the child timeline then he could only have gotten the triforce of power in Twilight Princess and he didn't do it the same way the manual tells us. the manual tells us about how he did it in the Adult timeline while Link slept ( went to the sacred realm and touched it before returning to wreak havoc on Hyrule) but it could just be one of those unchangeable things cuz ALttP is one of the older games so they had no idea the series would have taken this turn...if I am right and the seal war was then supposed to happen in Twilight Princess then I'm sure the seal war story would sound different although again it would be completely different seeing how the sages didn't seal Ganon it was Link using the sages sword...and also did Ganon die in the end (still haven't beaten it sorry) or was he sent to the dark realm? so then ALttP would fit better, if not then the WW would have to somehow be changed to the child timeline and Twilight Princess to the Adult one...which again makes no sense but you know where I'm going with this I hope. --Remo 15:12, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Saria
In the article it mentions that only FOUR Sages are humanoid: Rauru (unknown species), Nabooru (Gerudo), Impa (Shiekah), and Zelda (Hylian). But wasn't Saria, a Kokiri, also humanoid. And, considering that, shouldn't that part be changed? --Sk8torchic


 * Technically, all the sages in Ocarina of Time are humanoid. By the definition of the term, all seven are humanoid. They are all shaped like humans. But the four that were singled out are the ones that are "most human". We can only assume that all seven were able to blend in with the humans and/or Hylians. Nintendo never explained how Saria was able to do that, but hey, this is a magical world. Anything can happen. 20:01, August 5, 2008 (UTC)

Inaccuracies
This article devotes a lot of polot summary to OoT, when Nintendo apparently does not consider OoT to be the Imprisoning War anymore, since neither TWW nor TP have any direct connections to ALttP. Because the Imprisoning War is the backstory for ALttP, the plot summary should be just the events described in ALttP. The OoT story and the ALttP story do not correspond entirely. For one, Link isn't in the ALttP story.


 * Sorry, I don't know why but I didn't thought that TWW and TP didn't let my information fit. However you didn't have to delete all my work as it was sourced, I have experince with wikis, and most of the time this lead to a war edit; you should have taken the references that could serve you and delete the rest of it. Also I can see you support the Four Sword Adventures-Imprisioning War theroy but that isn't justification to throw to trash the work of someone else. It hurted me that you deleted my work of 7 hours :(.


 * Leaving that aside, I have moved the speculation of Ocarina of Time to it's own page: Imprisoning War/Ocarina of Time but this time marked as fan theory, because it got too big with the things I added, let's see what you think. BenitoPerezGaldos 21:11, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Maybe a separate section can be added to discuss the theory that the Imprisioning War is Ocarina of Time. I'm of the opinion that it is not, but only undisputed information should go under the main section. You'll notice that there's a section for Ocarina under the theories section, maybe most of the old info can be moved there?Ganondorfdude11 23:16, 22 May 2009 (UTC)Ganondorfdude11

I expanded the OoT and TP sections with the plot summary material you had under the main section. I'll work on similarly expanding the FSA section so that the article will be balanced. I'm sorry I wholeslae deleted your hard work instead of just moving it.Ganondorfdude11 23:45, 22 May 2009 (UTC)Ganondorfdude11


 * Oh, the subarticle that I made was deleted...; You are making a great job Ganondorfdude11, the only section that needs more work is the FSA. I took some screenshots of the ALttP introductions and will add them to the article, but maybe tomorrow, I am not in the computer with the screens right now. And I will also remove the noncannonical information of the manga if you want, I just added it to made it more interesting and that's why I added the word uncannonical in the sentence; still in the section where it says the king is presumed death we can add that in the manga is stated death although it is uncannonical (obviously adding that is uncannonical information). BenitoPerezGaldos 00:20, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Maybe you can leave it in if you specify that it's non-canon, something like "The king's fate is never specified in-game, but the manga says he died" or something. I'll get to work on the FSA section.Ganondorfdude11 02:48, 23 May 2009 (UTC)Ganondorfdude11


 * Very well them, I'll add something like that to the article. BenitoPerezGaldos 02:51, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

All right, I expanded the FSA section. Now the TP section looks like it needs a little work done to it.Ganondorfdude11 03:46, 23 May 2009 (UTC)Ganondorfdude11

Project Status
I'm curious as to what the project status is here. That and I'd like to keep a close watch on the two of you. Keep the edit tensions low and swap info among one another to fight off the wiki if you must. 04:06, 10 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I think this was a straight text merge. We're basically copying out of the manuals. Ganondorfdude11 17:22, 10 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Theory section alot of text could go as it hints to being a theory. Also the intro should be neutral and what Nintendo developers say would be best placed in the Support/Oppose section as a line of reasoning. 05:42, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Many of the expansions taking place here are serving to state points not really necessary to present the theories. I'm not normally this bad about parsing points, but I thought your goal was to reduce the theory section to something manageable. First off, assume the reader has played the games from the theory, present the basic points of it, and if you need help, I'll be glad to provide. 21:06, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Ok Ax, you're right we do want to try to reduce things, but can you give an example of what you mean though? So far, I think we've cut down a good sum and organized it better. But what would you like us to do further exactly? Link87 21:15, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

What exactly is going on with the size of this page? I mean is it going to stay this large or are we planning to put it Zelda Wiki Weight Watchers? --Xizor 05:32, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Basically what we've done is gone through and edited out all the opinions and arguments to state only the facts and reorganize the article in a way that is easier to read and comprehend. Now what we need to know is what you would like to keep as far as the theory section goes. Before we had two or three sections per game, which was ridiculous. Now we have it down to one picture a piece with a brief plot description and the stated facts supporting or disputing the game's candidacy. Do you have any suggestions on what you'd like to keep or remove Xizor? I'd like to make it less overbearing myself, but I was told to try to salvage as much of the original piece as possible, so I could use some guidance here, lol. Link87 05:37, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

New theory
"The Shrine Maidens seal Ganon within the Four Sword, which is then seen in the Dark World in pieces in the Palace of the Four Sword. This could mean that after Ganon was sealed, the Four Sword was moved into the Palace of the Four Sword, and then Ganon broke out and found the Triforce."
 * I like this theory!! Which could explain why the Four Sword is in pieces, why each shard are guarded by a boss, why the palace of the Four Sword is where Ganon is, and why Link try to retrieve the Four Sword at the end of A Link to the Past. Jeangabin 13:25, 10 August 2010 (EDT)

A new question
When Ganon broke in to the Sacred Realm and touched the Triforce shouldn't it have split into three parts? How did he manage to obtain the whole thing?--Siege 06:27, 20 September 2010 (EDT)

The Triforce splits when the wielder is in imbalance with courage, power, and wisdom. OOT Ganondorf was imbalanced, and only had power. Clearly, ALTTP Ganon was more balanced that OOT Ganon. In a "Pro-One-Ganon" train of thought, it could be that Ganon was able to, over the years, balance out his virtues and was later capable of wielding the full Triforce. In a "Pro-Multi-Ganon" train of thought, it could be that ALTTP's Ganon was a different and more balanced individual than OOT Ganon. –– Faedeur 21:32, 18 November 2011 (EST)
 * Personally, I don't think that a viable explanation exists. Ganon, regardless of whether he is the same entity or not, was immoral and thus imbalanced. More likely imo, OoT retconned the behavior of the Triforce, hence the inconsistencies :/ Zeldafan1982 09:54, 19 November 2011 (EST)

Perhaps another possibility
So far I think that the Ocarina of Time events most closely match up to the Imprisoning War, though I do have to admit that they don't match on a one to one ratio and some discrepancies exist. Perhaps there's an explenation for one or more of them, however.

The Knights Dying:

When Link took the Master Sword he was sealed in the Temple of Time (or Light. That's the problem in my mind with sleeping one place and awaking another.  In which place did you actually do the sleeping?) for seven years. Very little, if my memory serves me, seems to be said about what happened during those seven years. That's a pretty long time to sleep and I feel that it's quite possible that the Hyrulean Knights could have been called into service during that time. In fact, I find it very likely that the rulers of Hyrule would likely employ them against Ganondorf when he comes to take the throne after his sojourn into the Sacred Realm, especially given that to those who knew of Link's quest in the first place, no sign of him seems to be present during that time. So Link may well have slept his way through that portion of the events. While no king is mentioned in the game and in all likelihood he is dead, he may have ordered the assault as one of his last acts before execution, perhaps.

Lack of a Hero:

Again, given that Link is asleep for seven years, it stands to reason that any sages looking for a hero would be unable to locate one. It makes me wonder, too, if when Ganondorf took over if there were sages at that time who may have searched for Link. Perhaps, if that can be assumed to be the case - and it is a rather large stretch, I admit it but perhaps not a strict impossibility - then Ganondorf killed them, causing new sages - the ones which Link awakens - to be called. These would, obviously, be the same sages that sealed Ganon/Ganondorf. Either way, for a period of seven years, there indeed was no hero to fight Ganondorf.

Shrouded Sages:

The fact that in the opening sequence of A Link to the Past the sages wear volumous cloaks makes it hard to say emphatically that they are or are not the same sages from Ocarina of Time. Concievably, nearly any form may be beneath the cloaks. If it can also be once again assumed that the races in Hyrule are able to reproduce amongst each other, then the human-appearances of their (unknownedly distant) maiden descendants may be explainable. Also, given that it can be (again) assumed that Zelda of Ocarina of Time is a sage in her own right, (making the appropriate number of Seven) it stands to reason that the Zelda of A Link to the Past is possibly her descendant, and therefore containing the same power as the other maidens which results in their sacrifice.

Ganondorf introduction:

It seems to me that in every other game in which Ganondorf appears, he is already established as an evil force among the residents of that particular game's Hyrule. Only in Ocarina of Time does it appear as if individuals may not yet realize the threat he poses. The fact he was bowing before the King suggests that the King of Hyrule was not aware of Ganondorf's dark ambitions at that time. Therefore, chronologically within the timeline it would appear that Ganon/Ganondorf's first appearance is in Ocarina of Time, all other appearances taking place later on one of the two respective timelines. This would seem to me to be consistant with the necessary situation for him to reach the Sacred Realm in the first place. As the only (at that time at least) known entrance seems to be the Temple of Time, if the King realized how evil he was, then he never would have set foot in the palace to begin with, which seems to be practically a requisite to entering the Temple of Time for Ganondorf given one of the necessary pieces to enter the Sacred Realm is held by the royal family.

Laughter:

While hardly conclusive, it may be worth mentioning that according to this article (I admit I haven't played A Link to the Past in a while so the opening is not extremely fresh in my mind), states that Ganondorf's laughter rang out as he achieved his goal. In the cut scene where Link acquires the Master Sword and is sealed away, Ganondorf clearly laughs in triumph as he enters the Sacred Realm to obtain his prize.

Sealed Away:

Ganondorf is clearly sealed away (via the power of the Sages) at the end of Ocarina of Time. In each other game where I know of Ganondorf/Ganon having been the final Boss, he is not sealed at the end but actually killed or incapacitated in some manner that is inconsistant with the backstory to A Link to the Past, which states that he was sealed in the Dark Realm by the sages. As he spirals down into his prison, he promises that when the seal is broken (which would occur in A Link to the Past), he would have his revenge and wipe out the sages' descendants (which would be the seven maidens, of which Princess Zelda of A Link to the Past, the descentant of the Ocarina of Time incarnation of course, is a member) and in a certain sense, he does, as the maidens are indeed 'sacrificed' to effect Ganon's return.

I don't feel that this closes the arguement by any measure, of course, but it may, possibly, explain a few of the issues between the two events. Whether these possibilities are likely or even possible, I still feel that out of all possible candidates available thus far, the events of Ocarina of Time

Ragnarok 00:43, 6 January 2011 (EST)

Twilight Princess Section
Two points appear to be in contention under the Twilight Princess section.
 * 1) No Hero is said to have been found to take up the Master Sword against Ganon's forces in the story of the Imprisoning War, yet Link obviously wields it in Twilight Princess, even using it to deliver Ganondorf his deathblow.
 * 2) Ganondorf is seemingly killed in Twilight Princess, another stark difference from the story of the Imprisoning War, which states that he was sealed away in the Dark World and couldn't figure out how to return to the world of light.

The objections to the inclusion of these under the discrepancies section are that Ganon's sealing in the Twilight Realm did not involve Link, and that his death at the end of TP is irrelevant. However, the Twilight Realm seal is not the Sacred Realm seal, which does not even exist at the time of Twilight Princess. In order for the main plot of TP to be the Imprisoning War, it would require Ganon to be sealed in the Sacred Realm at the end of the game rather than simply die. Ganondorfdude11 20:14, 6 April 2011 (EDT)
 * I agree with you that in TP the SW is not depicted but this is our opinion and we have to be neutral. The intro in the TP section refers to the events in which Ganon was sent to the TR through the mirror. The last sentence is "They used the mirror to send him away into the Twilight Realm." Maybe it should be made a little more clear that the section refers to the Twilight Princess backstory to avoid confusion but these two discrepancies should be removed. Zeldafan1982 12:10, 7 April 2011 (EDT)


 * The section of the page indeed refers to the story of Ganondorf's banishment prior to the events of Twilight Princess, and not the game itself; therefore, any events occurring after this are indeed irrelevant. I tried to clarify that section of the page a bit, hopefully it's better now.


 * I don't think Twilight Princess is a viable candidate for the Imprisoning War, simply because it lacks the key event of Ganon's imprisonment. I don't see how the Dark Would couldn't be the Twilight Realm. It might not be, but that just makes for another discrepancy (which I added). 18:42, 11 April 2011 (EDT)

Discrepancies section
I would argue that the following discrepancies should be deleted from the OoT section:

1.It is said that the King of Hyrule commanded the Seven Sages to seal the Golden Land in the legends of the Imprisoning War. Even though it is never stated in the game, he is presumed dead, and the noncanonical manga states that the King indeed died in Ocarina of Time following Ganondorf’s assault on Hyrule Castle.

I argue #1 for several reasons. 1) It is clear even in the current description that it is never actually stated, only "presumed", that the King is dead, which I will admit at the risk of being called an idiot that I was never fully convinced of (although obviously certainly possible), as if Zelda escaped with Impa (which we know happened obviously) it is possible the King did as well. 2) If we accept the "Split-Timeline Theory", which I think a lot of us do, OoT's "Child Ending" could very easily be where the King ordered Ganon to be imprisoned, as he definitely would not have died, and because Link's freeing of the Sages seems to have happened to both timelines simultaneously (i.e. they are free regardless of which line you follow, as they exist in both), it is certainly possible. 3) My biggest argument is that I have a problem with using NON-canonical sources to assert a theory on the canonical games possibilities. To use a manga makes as much sense to me as using the ridiculous cartoon as a source. We might as well put in the Link page that he is known to say "Well excuuuuuuuuse me Princess!" as a translation of some of his grunts. (And yes, that is a ridiculous and hyperbolic statement, but hopefully it makes my point about using non-canonical sources to attempt to explain the games.)

5.The Knights of Hyrule are not nearly as prominent in Ocarina of Time as they are in the Imprisoning War story. Only one knight is seen in a back alley, and though his dialogue indicates he was killed by Ganon, the battle waged by the Knights to protect the Sages does not appear in Ocarina of Time.

I have a problem with #5 as well. 1) Just because they are not prominent in the game does not mean they are non-existent in the world's story. Also, more than just the one Knight in the alley is seen (does nobody remember the guards you have to sneek by in order to get to Zelda???) 2)The battle does not have to be seen in order to have happened, as can be proven because the Knights dialogue clearly implies such a thing, and because we follow Link, who is not a Knight, it makes sense that we do not see the battle itself, as he has no part in it. 3) If you wanted to get technical, the King is also not seen in OoT, but is clearly a player in the world's story. Something does not have to be seen to have happened.

Also, I would propose merging #6 and #7 into one, as they basically say the same thing:

6.Ganon could not figure out how to return to the Light World after the seal was cast. Two sequels to Ocarina of Time, The Wind Waker and Twilight Princess both feature Ganon's return and death.

7.For Ocarina of Time to be the Imprisoning War, Ganondorf would have to remain imprisoned in the Sacred Realm until the events of A Link to the Past, and yet he is clearly released and killed in the events before and during The Wind Waker.

I would think that that would sound better as such: "It is stated that Ganon could not figure out how to return to the Light World after the seal was cast. Two sequels to Ocarina of Time, (covering both possibilities of the Split-Timeline Theory) The Wind Waker and Twilight Princess, both feature Ganon's return and death."

Personally, I think Support #1 (you know, where the designers of the games state "This time, the story really wasn't an original. We were dealing with the "The Imprisoning War of the Seven Sages" from the SNES edition Zelda") makes the rest of it mute, but I can understand having the discrepancies section, and have no problem with them accept as noted above.Vyselink 21:07, 20 June 2011 (EDT)


 * I agree with merging 6 and 7, and a rephrasing or reworking of 1. However, you say that the king could have ordered the sages to seal Ganon in the child timeline. This is impossible, as the Imprisoning War never even happens in the child timeline. Directly after Ocarina of Time, Link warns Zelda about Ganondorf and the king has him arrested and executed. He goes into the Twilight Realm, and Twilight Princess picks up from there. Ganondorfdude11 00:37, 21 June 2011 (EDT)

The last discrepancy under the FSA section doesn't make sense, which is why I removed it earlier (yet it's back now). All the ALttP manual says is that the sages tried to find a hero to wield the Master Sword before Ganon attacks. It's not a discrepancy that FSA's Links are using the Four Sword, as it's not said there wasn't a hero at all (it's not implied there was a hero either, but still). The real discrepancy is that there are no sages in FSA to search for a hero, but that is already mentioned, and would be redundant.--Jarsh 20:17, 22 June 2011 (EDT)


 * I disagree. The manual (NOA translation) says that "The wise men and the Knights Of Hyrule combined forces to wage war on this evil horde. The Knights took the full brunt of the fierce attack, and although they fought courageously many a brave soul was lost that day, However, their lives were not lost in vain, for they bought precious time for the Seven Wise Men to magically seal ganon in the Golden land.". There is no mention of a hero contributing in the battle. The Four Sword also is not mentioned. Zeldafan1982 16:07, 23 June 2011 (EDT)


 * Ganondorfdude11- I would argue that just because we don't see it happen doesn't mean it didn't. How do we know that there wasn't some war still fought when Ganon was ousted in the Child-Timeline, but that because the Seven Sages were back (as I previously mentioned I believe they now exist in both timelines) the Imprisoning still happened? Do any of us really think that the King just completely got the drop on Ganondorf without Ganondorf fighting back? He was so surprised that all of his amazing power suddenly left him and that he did nothing? I personally always thought that the Imprisoning War happened in the Child Timeline, because then the ALttP manual would make sense again. Here is what I mean.


 * Lets assume (for now) that I am correct about the sages being awakened in the Child Timeline. Link now can no longer wield the Master Sword, as he is a child, so the Imprisoning War takes place with Ganondorf fighting for his life against the King (who is now aware of his evil). The Sages are back, so he orders them to seal Ganondorf. Thus, the events of ALttP have happened exactly as said. They could not find a Hero to wield the Master Sword, as Link was a child (and unbeknownst to any but the Sages, who did NOT write the history of ALttP as far as I know, he had already done his duty in awaking them). The war takes place with the Sages awakened, and Ganon is sealed. Vyselink 18:05, 23 June 2011 (EDT)


 * If the Seal War takes place in the child timeline then this means that the Sages in the Twilight Princess backstory banished Ganon in the Sacred Realm. Personally I have a disagreement over this since the Twili were banished in the Twilight Realm when they tried to access the Triforce (in the Sacred Realm). It wouldn't be reasonable that they were banished in the same realm so I don't think that the TR and SR are the same. Zeldafan1982 16:51, 24 June 2011 (EDT)

Great Cataclysm
In the context of ALttP the Great Cataclysm happens after Link gets the Master Sword. Since the SW is concluded ages before that, I don't think is should be mentioned much here. It has its separate page anyway. Also the article takes as a fact that the Cataclysm concerned Ganon's claim on the Triforce although this is a theory.

Edit: I was only aware of the manual translitaration by Zethar. Looking at is pretty clear that the obtaining of the Triforce is a separate event from the "Great Cataclysm" which basically refers to Ganon's efforts (a series of events) to break the seal and conquer Hyrule. Zeldafan1982 20:17, 8 July 2011 (EDT)

Image use...
Numerous images on this page aren't really "canon" per se, meaning they're from Nintendo of America or, in some cases the German player's guide for the game. One image of Ganon is from the Barcode Battler too, and one from the manga. It's a real hodgepodge.

The article also seems really long, I'm pretty sure it could be more concise. Would anyone be opposed to trimming down the image use and number of sections in this article? I know of a perfect image for the header which strangely isn't being used, and there's maybe one or two more that could be in the article, but everything else seems like overkill. It's an incredibly important event but this article is quite meandering. 16:11, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Go for it. 17:01, 4 February 2013 (UTC)