Zelda Wiki:Discussion Center

Enemy pages that need to be moved/merged/split
Ok, so thanks to Fizzle, we have come to the realization that...a lot of pages need to be moved/merged/split either because:


 * 1) the enemies mentioned don't have official English names (that we are using because fansites such as ZD use them)
 * 2) the enemies that are currently in one page are actually different (such as Zazakku in the Daira article)
 * 3) two enemies that seem to be different are actually the same (Whisp is the only one I've seen so far)

And because all of these suggestions are mostly scattered about in different talk pages, Pakkun has done the job for us and gathered all of the ones that need to be moved/merged/split. Easier to keep up with it that way:


 * Merge Cyclops Fish with River Zora or move to Ku (to be determined).
 * Split Hoba or Hover from Water Tektite.
 * Split Hokkubokku from Geldarm.
 * Split Zazakku from Daira.
 * Split Aneru from Rope.
 * Move Lizard to Bazu or Buzz.
 * Move Reaper to Hyu.
 * Move Aqua Beetle to Pirogusu.
 * Move Rhinobird to Kyune.
 * Move Rabbit Fang to Toppo.
 * Move Eye Keese to Chasupa.
 * Move Sentry Eye to Laser Eye.
 * Move Kodongo to Kodondo.
 * Move Cloud to Gibo.
 * Move Tinsuit to Wosu.
 * Merge Whisp with Bubble.
 * Merge Nuranuru with Sluggula.
 * Move Thieves to Thief and move Thief to THIEF (Link) or merge with Link

'''Any other suggestions should be added to this section to keep better track of them. :D'''

I agree to moving/splitting most, if not all, of them. Although for merging and such, I'd have to give it a closer look. Dany36 16:10, 16 October 2011 (EDT)


 * With the exception of that last bullet, we've discussed AT LENGTH the renaming of these enemies. It's time to take action. I think renaming Cyclops Fish to Ku would be a better move. I also prefer Hover over Hoba and Buzz over Bazu, personally, but if people really want the opposite it doesn't really matter to me.
 * I recently gained the ability to move pages, but the only thing stopping me from moving some is the spelling of the page, whether we should use full romanisation with accented lettering (as Pakkun suggested), assumed names (like Slarok) or somewhere inbetween. However, some of them don't even require that much thinking, I recently updated the Eye Keese page and if people are happy I will go and move it to Chasupa right now as it requires no further discussion really. Fizzle 21:03, 16 October 2011 (EDT)
 * Okay, I went ahead and moved Eye Keese to Chasupa. However, its beyond sleep time over here so not much else I can do right this second, so if people wanted to get started, the ones that require pretty much no adjustments are Kodongo to Kodondo, Rabbit Rang to Toppo and Sentry Eye to Laser Eye. As for the others, if you decide to go with assumed names like Slarok, may I suggest Zazak instead of Zazakku, as I'm fairly sure the ku at the end is mostly silent (like with Okutarokku), and Hok Bok or Hokbok (or Hok-Bok) for Hokkubokku, for similar reasons. Fizzle 21:38, 16 October 2011 (EDT)
 * The difference between an enemy like Slarok or Deadrock and the rest is that their names clearly use English loan words (well, Slarok doesn't use any words per se, but still...), so their names mean something when directly translated to English. Names like "Slarok" and "Deadrock" make perfect sense and have meaning, whereas names like "Zazak" and "Hok Bok"... well... don't. It's a tough call, though...
 * Like Pakkun, I don't care much for double-lettering, but I'm not sure using accented characters for page titles is a great idea either. I say we name them how they're named in the list above (simple lettering without the accented characters). 08:13, 17 October 2011 (EDT)
 * Except that arguably, Deadrock should be Deadrok, as rokku is always translated as rok or roc in other enemy names, and I think the name was meant to tie in with Octorok and Slarok (the enemy moves in a very similar manner, although it doesn't spit rocks obviously). I personally really think if we don't use accented names, we should go with Zazak and Hok Bok. If you want my evidence that the is mostly silent, put ザーザック (Zazakku) and ホックボック (Hokkubokku) into Google Translate and listen to the Japanese voice say them and compare with デッドロック (Deddorokku). Note that all these names end on ック (kku) too. So my suggestions are to go with Zazak, Hok Bok, Buzz, and Hova (happy medium between Hoba and Hover). Those names are what I personally would think Nintendo would of translated them as, and if we want to keep Slarok and Deadrock as they are, I would think thats a suitable way of doing things. We would still obviously mention alternate spellings on the pages anyway. Thats my thoughts anyway, let me know what you guys think. I've just moved Kodondo so I'll strike that one off the list. Fizzle 09:23, 17 October 2011 (EDT)


 * All the enemies here that are currently named after their Japanese name keep the original Romaji, without accented characters or double lettering (examples include Guma, Ra, Myu, and Nuranuru). Names are not translated to English UNLESS it's really obvious and these names have meaning in English (Stal, Slime, and, of course, Slarok and Deadrock). Honestly, I don't see why that system has to change. I still stand by the names "Hover", "Buzz", "Zazakku", and "Hokkubokku". And renaming Gaeru to "Geru".
 * In principle, using accented characters in the titles might be a good idea. However, I asked some of the other staff about it and learned that even simple ampersands (&) and apostrophes can mess up internal wiki functions, so that's a no go. We can use them within the article itself, but beyond that... 17:48, 18 October 2011 (EDT)
 * Fair enough, seems good to me, thats what I assumed would be the case but I didn't want to go ahead and do all this and make mistakes. HOWEVER, I'm going to have to really fight with you on Zazak/Zazakku and Hokbok/Hokkubokku. I really think those kus are unnecessary. Hover I'll go with though though, because Hover Boots have the exact same spelling in Japanese. Buzz also sounds good to me, and I'll rename the Gaeru page I created as soon as possible. I just don't see any precedent for keeping those unnecessary kus, whenever any similar name is translated on the wiki they tend to get dropped. Even stuff like Magic Cape is "Majikku Manto", or Fire Rod is "Faia Roddo". I've not see any instance where the kus are actually intended to be pronounced. Its just the way things are written in Japanese, and this is still true for "nonsense" names, such as Hinox as "Hinokkusu", or Tartnuc (the official translation for Darknut in the Japanese manual) and "Tātonakku". Fizzle 18:08, 18 October 2011 (EDT)
 * Funny, just as you posted this I was writing about how I changed my mind about Hokbok and Zazak. It definitely looks better than "Hokkubokku" and "Zazakku". I thought Stal, Slime, Slarok and Deadrock were different than Hokbok and Zazak, but they aren't really. I over-thought that one a little bit. Sorry for wasting for time. 18:39, 18 October 2011 (EDT)
 * I should probably give my input on this before it's too late. On the "rokku" issue, double-consonants indicate a pause in the word. With the inclusion of ッ before consonants in Japanese, it becomes harsher. The best I can describe it is sounding out the word, and then taking an abrupt pause before the next letter. Or, sometimes you pronounce the consonant twice, but only the vowel once, the second time. Take Pocket Monsters, for example. If I recall correctly, it usually comes out sounding like "poket-to monsta".
 * Deadrock and Deadro(c/k) are tricky because there's no phonetic difference. Honestly, either is "accurate", I'm not for assumed names unless it's painfully obvious that it's an English word, like ホーバー being "hover".
 * Now, regarding the silent "u" issue... I meant that rarely would the u in "ku" would be silent. It's commonplace in "su", but only a few times have I heard the u in ku silent when dealing with Japanese media. You might have to consult someone else, but it wouldn't happen so frequently that all relevant enemies fall subject to it, usually only when it is a direct English word. Neither Zazakku and Hokkubokku are English and are just jibberish from what I can tell, and they differ from Deadrock and because both are based on English words. That's just my observation, anyway.  20:41, 18 October 2011 (EDT)
 * I trust your knowledge on this, but I have been hunting and really I haven't managed to find an example where the extra "ku" was kept in the English pronounciation. The only example I have found was Iron Knuckle, which, to be honest, was a heavily assumed name and I don't think "knuckle" was originally the intended name at all, hence why Tartnuc just became Darknut despite them both being spelt the same way. We could always move them afterwards if we can find evidence that the ku is meant to be there, or if we just change our minds about how to do it, I just figure that we should follow the route of the other names and just avoid unnecessary lettering for now, if thats the plan. I think the point is by placing the extra emphasis on the K, the u becomes unnecessary, at least thats what it seems like to me. Maybe we should go steal a fluent Japanese speaker from the Fire Emblem wiki sometime?
 * Though, now I'm thinking on it, should Aqua Beetle be moved to Pirogus instead of Pirogusu as well if U in su is commonly silent? Less of an issue since its just one letter, but I just realised that falls under the same rule. Anyway, I'll continue by moving some of the less controversial ones first. Fizzle 05:48, 19 October 2011 (EDT)
 * Actually, what I meant was that we don't mess with the names or try to localize it in any way unless it's based on a loanword. Personally, I feel that trying to localize it just makes it another case of fan-naming, which is what sparked this whole debate. Honestly, I'd prefer if we kept true to and retain accuracy with the Japanese names and not name articles for how they sound.
 * Anyway, I don't think you should be looking for any "English pronunciation" when dealing with their Japanese names. Unless you're talking about the romaji, in which case, I'm gonna say it's a highly subjective matter whether or not to pronounce the u in ku. Google's far from perfect (especially its translation features), so I'd take everything with a grain of salt.
 * Fire Emblem wiki is down, I think, so I'll just ask somebody else about it. 06:50, 22 October 2011 (EDT)
 * As a follow-up, one of my sources (a Japanese speaker), says it's "not exactly silent, but it is much less stressed". I was probably mistaken in ever bringing it up because in the instance I based it off of, the guy was talking hastily, so the "u" in "ku" never falls completely silent. 07:58, 22 October 2011 (EDT)
 * I would normally agree with you, but since people seem pretty attached to names like Slarok as opposed to Surarokku, I figured we should at least be consistent for now. I would rather have all of the names being "semi-localised" like Slarok, Zazak etc. than have half of them like that and half of them not. Personally I would be fine with Zazakku if Slarok was moved to Surarokku, but I doubt people would be happy with that. Fizzle 10:01, 22 October 2011 (EDT)
 * I understand your point, but I think at this point, the issue isn't conforming to convention, it's about retaining accuracy. I think we should put forth the effort to challenge the "previous standard" and keep it as accurate as possible, even if it means renaming the other articles. 19:29, 22 October 2011 (EDT)
 * In that case, we need to get Hylian King and other people's opinions on it. Like I say, I'm happy to go with Zazakku if the older articles are renamed along with it. I've already moved Bazu to Buzz though, and I kind of just want to get the articles into correct names (and correct info) even if not the correct spelling of said names right now. For too long they've been sitting on fan names, even though the original names have been known for years and years in the fandom for those who actually want to know them. Personally I've never used the fan names the wiki has been using. Then again, I'm a bit of an ALttP specialist, but still. I kind of feel like this might be a wiki policy issue however, and I'm well aware that the wiki has an American bias (seeing the US Spirit Tracks names everywhere is still utterly confusing for me, as someone who lives in England). Fizzle 07:57, 23 October 2011 (EDT)


 * I'd really rather not move Slarok. It's clearly meant to be a variation of the Octorok and the name allows us to compare the two. "Octorok and Slarok" sounds much better than "Octorok and Slarokku", wouldn't you say? The same could also apply to Zazakku and Hokkubokku, but there's no other enemy with a similar name so it's not really the same.
 * In any case, both of you make good points. If we really can't come to an agreement, perhaps we should consider passing to a vote. This discussion has gone on for far too long. 15:52, 23 October 2011 (EDT)
 * Maybe, although I kind of get the feeling we're the only people really that invested in the intricacies of this right now, haha. Though, if we go by the logic you just suggested, I'd say "Daira and Zazak" sounds better than "Daira and Zazakku" to my ears. Anyway, we've been making good progress I think. May I also one more to the list? Crab needs to be moved to Sand Crab, with either the Crab section being split or being the "less dominant" subsection. Sand Crab is a specific enemy that is a giant crab that has appeared in a number of the 2D games with relatively no differences (and is even named as a Sand Crab in the game itself) while the Crab is merely a regular old crab in TWW that is entirely harmless and entirely different (and extremely tiny). Thoughts on that? Its a minor one compared to the rest but my OCDish nature is bugging me about it. Fizzle 20:45, 23 October 2011 (EDT)


 * You don't have to excuse yourself. As I've said before, we do appreciate what you're doing. Thanks to you, we're probably one of the few people out there (if not the only people) that get all these names right, and that's something to be proud of.
 * There's no relation between the names Daira and Zazakku, so that logic does not apply. Anyways, we could go on talking about this forever and not get anything done. At this point, it's about difference of opinion and the only way to solve it is with a vote.
 * Everyone's fine with the splitting of Crab and Sand Crab. By the way, I would suggest that you mention the merging/splitting of pages that are not about ALTTP enemies on their respective talk pages instead of here, since this conversation was meant specifically for that purpose. It's also better for organizational purposes. Also this section is getting ridiculously long :P 22:32, 23 October 2011 (EDT)

Summary
OK, for those who don't feel like reading that massive wall of text, here's a short summary. Basically, it's all come down to two enemies: and, which need to be split from the Daira and Geldarm pages, respectively. There is some debate as to how we should name them:


 * Fizzle thinks we should simplify these names as "Zazak" and "Hokbok", since we already did that for Slarok. If we decide use the names "Zazakku" and "Hokkubokku", Fizzle thinks we should rename Slarok to "Surarokku". Fizzle stresses the importance of consistency. If we're going to localize names like we did for Slarok, he thinks we should do it for all of them or none at all.
 * Pakkun, on the other hand, stresses the importance of keeping the Japanese names as it is the only way we can remain 100% accurate. If we try to localize the names on our own, the names we choose (Zazak and Hokbok) might not be entirely accurate. He argues that using these names would be another case of fan-naming, which is what we've been trying to get rid of all along. For him, it's Japanese names or nothing (with the exception of names already based on English words).
 * I could go either way for these two names, but I'm wholeheartedly against moving Slarok. "Surarokku" is clearly a romanization of "Slarok", which is a reference to the similar enemy, "Octorok". I agree that we should use Japanese names, but we can make an exception of Slarok.

The way the wiki currently stands, we always use Japanese names in the absence of English ones. The only time we localize the names ourselves is if the Japanese name is an English loanword (like this enemy, for example). To my knowledge, the only exception to this policy has been Slarok. Basically, this discussion has been about whether or not we should change this policy and how. It all boils down to these four options:


 * 1) Name the two enemies "Hokkubokku" and "Zazakku" and keep everything else as is.
 * 2) Name the enemies "Hokbok" and "Zazak" and keep everything else as is.
 * 3) Name the enemies "Hokkubokku" and "Zazakku" and move Slarok to "Surarokku".
 * 4) Name the enemies "Hokbok" and "Zazak", keep Slarok, and move every Japanese-named enemy to an English equivalent of our creation.

If people could please voice their support for one of these four options we can get this over with and put it all behind us. 19:43, 2 November 2011 (EDT)


 * I vote for Option #1. I won't get into much detail, since this seems to be a voting section, but we can do the following to ease everyone's concerns.
 * Create a page called "Hokbok" and redirect it to "Hokkubokku"
 * Introduce the article by saying "Hokkubokku (possibly romanized as Hokbok) is..."
 * Do the same for Zazakku, Girubokku, Fokkeru, etc if there is a similar conflict
 * The whole point of this discussion is to avoid fan-made names. However, I think this suggestion can make the enemy names more memorable or "better looking" for those that don't care for the original JP name. 04:30, 3 November 2011 (EDT)


 * I second that. 07:25, 3 November 2011 (EDT)
 * I should mention that Slarok is not the only example, there's also Deddorokku, which is assumed to be Deadrock, although given naming conventions, it could also be Deadrok, or even Dedrok. We've already assumed Deadrock, just like we assumed Slarok. I guess my point originally was that since we cut out the extra "ku" on the end of these names, might as well do it for these other ones as well, even if the names are "nonsense" names. Even the Japanese romanisation of Tartnakku (Darknut), a complete nonsense name, was listed as Tartnuc in the Japanese manual for the game itself.
 * However, given that we already have Girobokku, and I went with Pirogusu instead of Pirogus, I don't really mind too much what we settle on as long as they're listed under correct names. However, if we use adjusted romanisation either in the article or in the name, may I suggest Hok Bok as the romanisation rather than Hokbok, as in the naming convention for Like Like. Looks better to me.
 * I quite like Abdullah's suggestion, and I'm fine to go with that, but I think Deddorokku is a bigger issue than Slarok. I'm fine with Slarok as I'm 99% sure thats what they intended it to be, Deadrock is an issue of spelling however. I think alt spellings need to be mentioned on the page, at least.
 * Minor small point, but when I was uploading new images for these enemies, I was unable to change the filenames for some of the enemies when uploading new versions, is an admin able to do that? Fizzle 19:01, 3 November 2011 (EDT)

I am in need of serious help
I know how to edit but nothing else. I'm lucky I found out how to type this. I'm new so can someone tell me how to vote, set up my personal page, edit pictures, and things like that? --18:00, 19 October 2011 (EDT)Person777 18:00, 19 October 2011 (EDT)


 * Well, that's a lot of stuff. First off, I'd recommend looking through the Help Guide. However, I will address each point:


 * To vote for a Featured Article or Featured Picture, click on the edit button beside the nomination you want to vote for. Next, add your vote beneath the template like this:
 * # I vote for this article/picture because... ~


 * To make a personal page, click on this link and create your page. You can add anything you want to it, as long as it isn't offensive. If you need inspiration, you can look at what other users and staff have on their pages.
 * "Editing pictures" is a really broad topic, so you have to be more specific. Do you want to upload new files or update an existing file? Or do you want to learn about the process of creating and modifying the image? If it's the second question, what exactly do you want to know? Would you like to know what programs to use, how to make images transparent, how to make a picture brighter, etc?
 * If you have any questions or concerns, please don't hesitate to reply. I'd be happy to help. 18:54, 20 October 2011 (EDT)

Thanks for answering my question. That was very helpful. I check the help guide for pictures, I don't really know what I'm looking for!:) --17:18, 21 October 2011 (EDT)Person777 17:18, 21 October 2011 (EDT)

Theres a no plus mark in the heart container
Help! there is no "Plus" Mark in the heart container page,i want to add question. how to do it?


 * Thanks for pointing that out! It has been fixed. 10:40, 24 October 2011 (EDT)

Sprite sizes?
I've been recently uploading new static PNG versions of the ALttP enemy sprites, along with a number of FSA sprites. I've been creating them at a x2 scale, so each pixel is twice the size, but when checking the galleries like Gallery:Enemies in The Legend of Zelda and the Game Boy games I've noticed these sprites are in a x3 scale. Rather than rush on and finish uploading loads of x2 sprites only to find out that x3 is preferred, I thought I better ask before I go about finishing. It would be relatively easy to go back and upload x3 versions, but I just wanted to be sure. Are they x3 because they are 8-bit and are small, or because x3 simply looks better when resized in thumbnails for all sprites? Some sprites in ALttP are just as small as those in TLoZ, despite being 16-bit (and some are even smaller, like the Bee sprite) and still look blurry in thumbnails even at x2 scale. On the other hand, some sprites are huge, like the bosses. But larger images do scale up or down better in general and are usually more "future proof". Anyway, if x3 is preferred, I can easily change the ones I've done so far and continue in that scale, if people prefer x2 for ALttP and FSA I'll stick with that. Fizzle 11:36, 30 October 2011 (EDT)


 * As you can see, there is currently no written policy regarding sprites. Given the wide variety of sprite sizes already on the wiki, trying to standardize them would be a nightmare and would hardly be worthwhile. Just do what you think is best; I strongly doubt anyone will criticize you for it.
 * Personally, I try to upload the original size whenever possible. If visibility is a problem, I use a x2 version instead. Different people will tell you different things about how to upload sprites. However, like I said before, how you want to do it is really up to you.
 * I remember Abdullah once suggested to me that I start by uploading the sprite at its original size, then upload the enlarged sprite as a newer version of that file. That way the original sprite is always there just in case. Just a thought. 12:12, 30 October 2011 (EDT)


 * I agree with Hylian King. I recommend to always upload the original sprite, then upload a larger version if visibility is an issue. 13:31, 30 October 2011 (EDT)


 * Alright, cool. I'm replacing sprites that are at x1 scale for the most part anyway. The ones I'm uploading have fixed colors and things, but the old ones are still there. I'll carry on with how I'm doing it now, would be easy enough for anyone to make x3 versions later (or x1 versions even) if needed as they scale up or down in editing software fine if you chose the right setting. While there is a wide variety of sizes on the wiki though, most of them from TLoZ, LA and the Oracles seem to be in a x3 scale except for small or animated .gifs, which are usually x1 scale, while most of those from Zelda II are in x2 scale. ALttP ones were in x1 scale but now I'm replacing them they'll be in x2 scale, and the FSA ones will be as well. I guess I'm saying that if they're not standardised, I can standardise them to x3 if needed. Anyway, I'll carry on as is for now, x2 is happy medium for these ones I think. Fizzle 19:45, 30 October 2011 (EDT)