Talk:Rosso

"Goron"
Where does it actually say Rosso is a Goron? He has Hylian ears. Dekler (talk) 14:19, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

I think, based on his Goron-like but also Hylian-like appearance, combined with the presence of both the Goron symbol and hair, that he is a result of Goron evolution, like the Rito and Koroks of The Wind Waker being evolved Zoras and Kokiri respectively. Fyrisvellir (talk) 08:20, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

Either that or he's half-Goron. Fyrisvellir (talk) 08:21, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

Rosso displays characteristics of both species: Hylian Ears and clothing, and the build of a Goron + their symbol. It would be speculation to call him just Hylian or just Goron, so in my opinion we should list his species as Hylian/Goron.--LordM (talk) 04:39, 1 December 2013 (UTC)


 * I'm pretty sure Rosso is Hylian. He does have some Goron-esque traits, but his skin color, eyes, and red hair don't exactly scream "Goron". Then, too, he's shown to enjoy throwing rocks, but if he were a Goron, wouldn't he prefer to eat them? I think it would be a lot safer to just call him a Hylian for now, and maybe put in a theory section about him possibly being, or being related to, a Goron. It has some evidence in its favor and obviously has some community support, so it should be acceptable as a theory, but it seems too unsupported to warrant being put in as fact. Setras (talk) 04:57, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
 * His skin color and eyes bear a strong resemblance to the Gorons in FSA, more so than any Hylian, combine that with his build, the fact that he lives on Death Mountain, and the presence of the Goron symbol, and I think that he has equal evidence for being part of either race.--LordM (talk) 09:29, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Rosso should be listed as a Hylian. I think his Goron-like features should be listed as trivia, not a theory. Rosso wearing the Goron symbol on his belt is not evidence that he is a Goron. His hair and belt are clearly homages to Darunia, but that doesn't make him a Goron. --Joshua (Yumil) (talk) 15:27, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

Race Debate
Given some who have raised issues over proof of Rosso's race, I propose to remove the race from his info box entirely until we have direct confirmation of his race. However, the theory section where speculation about his race is raised should remain, as it is under a proper theory section and label, and there are multiple pieces of evidence that are worthy of mention (appearance, living/working on Death Mountain, Goron symbol, etc). Ghirahim87 (talk) 20:23, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Look at Rosso's body structure, Rosso is big and muscular, but he definitely doesn't have rock-like compositions on his body like Gorons have. Also, he does not live on Death Mountain, he lives next to the Lost Woods, but his work place is on Death Mountain. Rosso can't be a Goron because he doesn't eat rocks, he breaks them for a living, he has ears, and does ot bear any symbols on his body at all.  Not only that, his portrait is found in the Ice Temple, you can't base species just because his "Belt" has the Goron Symbol engraved on it.  --Vaati The Wind Demon (talk) 20:44, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
 * It is clear he is not strict Hylian, and the symbols have been used to indicate relations to other races in the past, see . He is clearly meant to evoke the look and feel of Gorons.  The theory section should stay and no official race should be listed for him until we have specification by the developers.  Ghirahim87 (talk) 21:16, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Theories are fine, as long as they are explained properly. If your refering to Makar, Medli and Kamali, Eiji Aonuma said that the Rito Tribe evolved from the Zora Tribe and the Korok Tribe evolved from the Kokiri Tribe, so it's obvious that they would be using the same symbols because technically, they are the same. But we can't use that on Rosso because he doesn't have a *Group* of his own like Makar, Medli, and Kamali do and Gorons still existed in that timeline. Also, no olden Zoras, besides Laruto's Spiritual Soul or olden Kokiris besides Fado's Spiritual Soul appear in either the Adult Timeline, Wind Waker, or Spirit Tracks as of yet, just treasures from the Zora Tribe have ever been mentioned or seen from them, however, Gorons in the flesh have appeared in Spirit Tracks unchanged. In the Decline Era, the only time I can recall that Gorons have appeared where in Holidrum and Labrynna, unchanged too. --Vaati The Wind Demon (talk) 22:34, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
 * The same grounds that were used to justify the ancestry of those from can easily be applied to Rosso.  There isn't a thing different between these cases.  Just because Gorons appeared during the era of the Oracle games does not mean that the Goron race and the Hylian race may have mingled in Hyrule in between.  Your arguments against Rosso being of Goron descent seem very flimsy to me, as they aren't grounded in rational thought.  It's pretty clear the game developers intended us to recognize him to be of Goron descent in some way.  Ghirahim87 (talk) 04:26, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
 * No it's not, your basing your arguments of Rosso being part Goron on one little symbol, and yes there is a thing different bettween these cases, have you actually played A Link Between Worlds? First, you claimed he lived in Death Mountain, when his house is next right to the Lost Woods, to me, your arguments are the one that aren't very rational.  Look at Rosso's artwork very carefully, he barely has any traits of a Goron besides both being *Big and Muscular*.  He may be a reincarnation of Darunia, but he doesn't have to be part Goron to be his new form.  --Vaati The Wind Demon (talk) 12:10, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I have played it through four times now, thank you very much. He lives at the foot of Death Mountain and works on it.  The real question here is have you played the game?  He is clearly not all Hylian and appears to be part Goron, and the presence of the symbol is all the more reason to believe this no matter how much you may want to say otherwise.  The game developers did not put the Goron symbol on him of all people in the game just for s**ts and giggles as you claim, they often never do things like that by accident.  In this case, their intent is abundantly clear to most.  You really have no case here because your sole reason for raising this stink is that you don't think all the evidence matters, when most others disagree.  I advise you to give up this pointless argument and actually play the game through thoroughly.  Ghirahim87 (talk) 15:28, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

I never said it was for *Swear Word and Giggles* at all. As far as I know, you and I are the only ones who have pitched in here so no, most people do not agree with you at all, because all I've heared from you is basic slander against my points, if you've actually bothered reading them for once, and if they intened him to be *Part Goron* then he would have *Inhereted* some traits of a Goron, but not, his figure is completely human and his body has no traits of a Goron, no symbols, on his arms or body or no rock-like anything, not a single one. The symbol is most likely to describe that he is a reincarnation of Darunia. I have played the game twice, his portrait is found in the Ice Temple, as for the emblem, you're using this "evidence" as if it is you precious trump card, but all it is is only an emblem. It's obvious that Rosso is mean't to be a reference to the Goron Tribe, but that doesn't mean he is part Goron or is part of this tribe. Evidence, what evidence, there is no solid evidence proving he is part Goron, besides you opinions saying so. I'm done, because this arguing is gonna get no where, and you still haven't read any of my points thoroughly yet about Rosso's body design from what you have written. --Vaati The Wind Demon (talk) 16:13, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
 * You are raising issues over nothing and looking for trouble where there is none. And yes, actually a big majority of people in my experience agree that he is likely of Goron descent and for obvious reasons.  I have spoken to about 15 friends about the game, and they all said the same thing.  You make for a distinct minority on this issue.  You keep raising the Ice Ruins as an excuse, but you fail to realize that EVERYTHING in Lorule is the inversion of its Hyrulean counterpart.  As Death Mountain is an active volcano in Hyrule, so is it a frozen mountain in Lorule.  Let's examine the evidence:


 * Rosso's appearance: He CLEARLY has some relation to the Gorons just by looking at him.  While he has Hylian ears, EVERY other part of his body SCREAMS Goron.
 * Rosso's home: He lives at the foot of Death Mountain, the known home of (you guessed it) the GORONS in the past.
 * Rossos's job: He spends his days mining in Death Mountain and dealing with rocks.  Now where have we seen this before?  Hmm.....mining.....rocks.....connecting the dots here, they intersect at (you guessed it again) the GORONS (see, , , etc etc etc).
 * Rosso's attire: He dresses in an unusual fashion from other Hylians and is wearing a funny symbol on his belt buckle......now where have we seen that symbol before.....Oh yeah!  We have seen it COUNTLESS times as the symbol of (you guessed it yet again) the GORONS.
 * Color of Rosso's painting: Rosso is trapped in the red painting in the collection of Sages.....hmmmm now which Sage was associated with the color red in the past....Oh yeah, that's right!  It was Darunia, the GORON Sage of Fire who lived on (you guessed it) Death Mountain!  And where was Rosso's painting held in Lorule....Oh that's right!  He was held in the Lorulean counterpart of Death Mountain!


 * Need I say more here???? Ghirahim87 (talk) 17:23, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
 * All you've basically done was try to make me into a bad guy in this situation, so I'm not the one trying to make trouble. I'm not here to argue for the fun of it like you claimed, I'm trying to reason in a civilized manor, but you using terms like "You're doing this for Swear Word and Giggles" and "You're a minority in this issue" is not only uncivilized, but it also implies you are trying to make a good guy bad guy situation out of this argument, and that's why I'm ending it after this post.  There is no simalarities between this http://zeldawiki.org/images/f/f3/LargeManALBW.png and this most detailed work of a Goron http://zeldawiki.org/images/9/97/TPGoron.png besides both being big and muscular, lets get others "From this Site and not in your say-sos" to have a say in this.  Oh and the Ice Ruins wassn't my only "excuse", and yes, I know Lorule is Hyrule's opposite in many things.  A lot of Hylians dress differently, doesn't mean anything in this case.  He spends his days mining yes, but not by eating or rolling into stones like Gorons do.  Alright, I've shared and repeated myself over enough my work here is done, I want others to contribute in this now.  --Vaati The Wind Demon (talk) 18:02, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
 * @Ghirahim87:
 * Rosso's appearance isn't inherently evidence of anything, as any conclusions drawn based on it are subjective. You, for example, think that Rosso's appearance "screams" Goron, but I find his skin color too light, his eyes too humanoid (as the Gorons typically have solid colored, pupil-less eyes, usually purple), and his hair too much like... well, hair. Gorons, being made of rock, generally have hair that looks rocky, when indeed they have anything resembling hair at all.
 * Rosso living at the foot of Death Mountain is, again, not inherent proof of his heritage. Irene and her Witch grandmother live near the mouth of Zora's River- does this make them Zoras? It would be logical for a miner to live near veins of ore, and a mountain would be the logical place to find them.
 * Rosso being a miner does not indicate his race, either. Just going off his job, you could also "logically" conclude that he's part Subrosian. Does it support the idea that he's part Goron? Yes, a little bit. But it's not inherently evidence that he is.
 * Rosso's attire would actually kind of be evidence against him being a Goron- once they're fully grown, Gorons usually either don't wear clothes at all, or at best wear loincloths or cloth underwear. Plus, the fact that he's wearing the Goron symbol could just be because the symbol itself is synonymous with Death Mountain. Heck, it's possible (though unlikely) that his mine is Dodongo's Cavern, which would've been filled with the symbol, hence his adopting it.
 * The color of the painting would, at best, just be further evidence that he's the Sage of Fire, and even this correlation isn't 100% solid (as Oren has an orange painting despite being affiliated with water, while Irene's painting is blue). The fact that he's the Sage of Fire could potentially be evidence that he's related to Darunia, but this is again not a solid link, and in any case would still only be proof that he's part Goron- he'd still be Hylian overall.
 * Setras (talk) 18:14, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
 * @Setras:
 * All flimsy attempts to dismiss the evidence in my book, just as flimsy as your friend. You also seem to be laboring under the delusion that I am arguing he is a full-blown Goron, which if you had read any of the above argument fully you would know is not the case.  I am making the argument that he is of Goron descent, not that he is a full Goron.  He is part Hylian and part Goron from what most can see.  And as I have said, I have spoken to about 15 different friends who all have played the game, and they all agreed:  he almost certainly is of Goron descent, and the above pieces of evidence are only a few of the reason why.


 * Rosso's appearance is one of the biggest pieces of evidence in support of his being of Goron descent. His lighter skin color is likely the result of the mixing of the Hylian and Goron races, something you conveniently like to gloss over.  If he is not full Goron, naturally he is not going to share all of their features, namely their rock-like hides.  As for hair, tell that to the Goron Elders we have seen, who nearly always had hair.
 * Rosso lives at the foot of Death Mountain. The Witch lives on the pathway toward Zora's Domain, not right in front of it.  Or have you not noticed that?
 * "Rosso being a miner does not indicated his race either" sounds just like the flimsy attempts of the previous user to dismiss something that doesn't fit with your view. I never said it concretely proves anything, but it definitely is a piece of evidence in support of it, something you like to conveniently dismiss.
 * Rosso's attire is a mixture of Goron and Hylian clothing. As those races seem to have mixed, so too have their customs and clothing it appears.  You also conveniently ignore this.
 * The color of the paintings are almost all indicative of their status as Sages, save for Oren and Irene, who have their colors switched simply because of their appearances. Ghirahim87 (talk) 18:20, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

May we please have insight on this issue from other Zeldapedians, I would like to hear what others have to say on this issue, that way, we can reach consensus quicker, please? --Vaati The Wind Demon (talk) 01:56, 9 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Personally, I doubt that Goron/human hybrids are even a thing. As far as we can tell, do they even reproduce sexually?  Since they're a unisex species it's likely they either procreate through budding or asexual birth.  It's possible that Gorons have evolved into a more humanoid form by this point in the timeline, but why is he literally the only Goron-like individual in the game, while every other character has at least one other, similar person they're related (Oren is the Zora Queen, every other Sage is Hylian)?  But more importantly, and this is specific to Ghirahim's argument, his clothing isn't a mixture of Goron and Hylian clothing.  Most Gorons don't wear anything at all, and the few times they do it's either a loin cloth (TP) or a tacky tropical shirt (WW). --KingStarscream (talk) 20:01, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I said a "mixture," not fully. He possesses something covering his bottom like Gorons of the past and yet has other clothing resembling Hylian clothing.  It is indicative of how the species changed most likely.  I don't think anyone can argue with a straight face that he is full-blooded Hylian, because that obviously isn't true.  I mentioned that as the races have changed, so too have some of their customs and culture.  Look at how the Zoras have changed for example compared to how they were in the past.  They look nothing like what they used to, yet it's made clear they are Zoras.  Ghirahim87 (talk) 20:14, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Actually, the appearance of the Zoras in ALBW is pretty consistent with how River Zoras have looked all throughout the Downfall timeline (with the possible exception of their color scheme). And the idea that Rosso isn't fully Hylian isn't obvious- the fact that this discussion has gone on so long is proof of that. Plus, as KingStarscream pointed out, Gorons have always been depicted as a single-gender (seemingly male) race, with nothing about their reproductive process displayed. There is therefore no conclusive evidence on which you can base Rosso being part Goron. Is it a possibility? Yes. Is it probable? Based on the evidence we have, no. Setras (talk) 20:35, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I can easily argue that he is a full-blooded Hylian, because we've had a ton of bulky Hylians in past games. As for the symbol: big deal, Link himself has items of clothing with the Goron symbol on them that he usually obtains by exploring Death Mountain.
 * This is set after ALttP, and Gorons don't even appear in that game (the closest being Deadrocks). There's also no reason for them to have evolved as the Rito and Korok did, because those were explicitly due to massive environmental change. So assuming they must have evolved is pretty much a red herring.
 * Rosso is neither obviously nor explicitly a Goron. He shares characteristics with the Gorons as a fourth-wall callback, much like the Postman-like Rito in TWW, or like the Oracle-like fangirls in TP. It would be irresponsible to claim that his race includes Goron: at best it can be assumed Hylian, otherwise it should be left blank (my preference).KrytenKoro (talk) 20:54, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
 * If you can explain, explain away. He's obviously not full-blooded Hylian just by looking at him.  His facial features and eyes are nothing at all like anyone else we see in the game.  The Gorons were not even conceived as a concept when ALTTP came out, so your analysis of that is flawed in that respect.  The Gorons existed LONG in the past and continued to exist even after the Great Flood in the Adult Timeline.  As for evolution, it's the one explanation that has been used by the game developers in the past to explain differences, therefore I think that remains the most respected explanation regardless of how you try to maneuver around it.  And no matter how much you may want to dismiss the symbol he bears, it still remains there and has indicated ancestry in games like TWW and others, and no amount of attempting to dismiss it is going to change that.  In fact, attempts to dismiss the importance of that symbol undermines one's credibility in this debate, in my book at least.  You know, a lot of people dismissed the idea of the Link from TP being an actual descendant of the Hero of Time/Hero's spirit, and used the exact same kinds of tactics to try and argue against it.  Then, when Hyrule Historia came out and confirmed that was in fact the case, every single one of those naysayers got egg on their face for it, because they did not want to accept evidence where it existed.  I would suggest not following in their footsteps.  Ghirahim87 (talk) 02:28, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
 * The problem is that you keep insisting on him "obviously" not being full-blooded Hylian, but your arguments are highly subjective. What you see is not necessarily what other see.  Besides, as my previous statement had mentioned, are you going to say that this guy (or anyone else on that page, really) is also half-Goron? --KingStarscream (talk) 19:44, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Fyer for the ludicrous "facial features" claim, Grog for eyes. Your response about ALttP misses the obvious point that ALBW is concieved as a sequel to ALttP and you're claiming that the Gorons just disappeared and then came back to evolve into a Hylian hybrid. For your...weird ad hominem about me trying to maneuver around evolution, um, extinction. And I gave an example of how the symbol does not always indicate ancestry in Ocarina of Time, the game that introduced Gorons. Or are Armos and Link descended from Gorons now too?
 * Also...just quit the BS about treating this as some kind of "battle", where you get egg on your face if you suggest, I don't know, actually waiting for bloody sources instead of pulling speculation out of your arse. This is an encyclopedia about a fictional topic, not a real-life historical project, and you're acting like a child.KrytenKoro (talk) 03:53, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks KrytenKoro, I couldn't have said it better myself, and Ghirahim87, the next time you decide to come back on this site again, I suggest you cut the attitude, be civilized, and don't put words in peoples mouths that aren't there to begin with, or else people will be less likely to want a consensus with you. If no one agrees with you, don't go on throwing rude remarks like "Everyones insight is flawed, except for mine".  That being said, thanks for your insight my fellow Zeldapedians!  --Vaati The Wind Demon (talk) 16:56, 10 December 2013 (UTC)


 * So, the consensus is to not state that he is a Goron, just that he is a callback to them, right? I don't think anyone here cares for how Ghirahim87 feels about this issue, judging by his ad hominum attacks and the speculative nature of his arguments, To prevent uninformed users from adding erroneous information to this article, shall we add a disclaimer in the head (only visible when editting) text saying not to state that Rosso is a Goron? Champion of Nayru (talk) 19:58, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
 * That's right, it's just to state that he is a reference or allusion to the Goron Race and certainly, that will help prevent that sort of thing from happening again in the Future! --Vaati The Wind Demon (talk) 01:58, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
 * just from reading all this, while i don't think ghirahim was always civil, he did have some good points. and while his tone may not have been civil, i have noticed several others on here that weren't always civil either, such as krytenkoro or vaati.  both of you, especially from your last statements, weren't acting much better than he was, and your last statements sound like vendettas almost.  i am for trying to maintain civility even if someone isn't particularly civil to me, and while it may be easy to jump to "ah-ha!" moments in debates, it doesn't do well for the wiki's image to be driving prospective editors away permanently by acting as childish as they were.  on the wiki's i've edited on before, we all tried to work together as a team and tried to maintain civility even if someone wasn't always civil to us.  i'd suggest the same here.  as for the debate itself, i could see him maybe being part-goron, but who knows?  there's seems to be a lot of circumstantial evidence for it, but it should remain theory until it's confirmed or denied.  just my two cents.  TheLink7 (talk) 19:56, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Neither Kyten or I were acting uncivilised or childish at all, judging from the outputs, we handled this the best we could in the exact tone required and neither of us were shoving words up others mouths, nor treating everyones insight as inferior, nor calling our insight eveidence, even with or without proof. Telling someone to cut the attitude and to stop insulting other peoples insight is not considered uncivilized at all, we easily explained our points and several bits of things that were flawed in his output, when he could have done that too, but instead, he just chose to easily refer them as "Flimsy Attempts", we may have been a bit hasty, but certainly not uncivilized.  That said, this has nothing to do with the subject at hand.  I agree that it should remain a theory, but the theory shouldn't state that he is part Goron, only that some fans think he is due to certain reasons.  --Vaati The Wind Demon (talk) 21:52, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
 * not to be rude man, but you kinda were. there toward the end you both treated this like some kind of vendetta for him offending you or something in my opinion, and that's not good policy or good for image.  in my opinion, neither of you handled the situation any better than he did.  rather than antagonize or start wars with someone, it's better to try and reach out to them and negotiate with them in a calm and civil manner.  from what i saw, neither of you seemed to really consider that, and the wiki likely just lost another editor.  i am not defending what the guy said or did, but truthfully, in my opinion, neither of you handled the situation any better than he, and i think there's better ways to work together with such a person in future.  TheLink7 (talk) 22:32, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Hi, Ghirahim. You should probably focus on being more honest, because neither of us treated this as a personal issue; in fact, the most we did is ask you to stop treating it as a personal issue.KrytenKoro (talk) 22:44, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
 * honestly i don't know what you're talking about sir, i am new to all this. i personally don't care for your tone or accusations, with all due respect.  i simply don't think you handled the situation with the guy above well, and i think the tone you've taken with me kinda proves that.  TheLink7 (talk) 22:49, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
 * The fact that you joined today and the only edits you've made so far have been reverting Kryten's edits that Girahim reverted and are further antagonizing this issue seem to prove that you are either a sockpuppet of Ghirahim's or you are in cahoot's with him, because this obviously is not a coincidance. We were being civilized whether you think so or not, now drop the issue and stop instigating it or else will have to report you to the Admins, this has gone on long enough and your edits have nothing to do with this page.  --Vaati The Wind Demon (talk) 22:57, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
 * for the last time, i honestly don't know who the guy is, i simply read your conversations with him, and i don't think you handled the situation any better than he, and your words right now seem to confirm that to me. is this how you treat all new members?  because if so, i don't think i'll like this place.  none of you have really been very welcoming and i have been nothing but respectful of each of you, if only critical of how you conducted yourselves with the guy above.  TheLink7 (talk) 22:59, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

Hylian or Unconfirmed
We have a consensus: stating that Rosso is a confirmed Goron is too speculative, no need to argue about this anymore.One question remains, though: should we list Rosso as a Hylian? Perhaps we should just leave race as unconfirmed? Although, considering that we assume most human-looking characters with pointy ears are Hylian unless confirmed otherwise, maybe just we should list him as Hylian. I'm slightly inclined to go with listing him as Hylian, but I have no strong feelings one way or the other. Champion of Nayru (talk) 20:01, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
 * personally man (if you're female sorry), given what i saw up above, i'd just leave it blank. really we don't know one way or the other completely, regardless of what consensus a few people on here may have, it's still not confirmed for sure.  the ears are as speculative as the symbol to me, and posting one or the other seems to be taking sides in a debate that nobody seems to be right in.  just my opinion.  cheers.  TheLink7 (talk) 20:04, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
 * If Rosso didn't have the ears, I would absolutely leave it blank, probably leaning in favor or listing him as a Goron. I personally do not see the symbol as strong evidence. Evidence, yes, but not strong by any means. Link (OOT), Sheik, Veran, and Onyx all bear symbols not representative of their race. Several other characters also bear symbols of a race, yet are not confirmed as that race (eg Madam Fanandi). The more I think about it, the more I feel it is appropriate to list Rosso as a Hylian. But you all know my stance on this, anybody else have an opinion on this situation? Perhaps we should do a vote? Champion of Nayru (talk) 21:03, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I think Champion of Nayru is on to something, maybe we should vote, I think leaving it blank for now is the best option, since it isn't fully confirmed. --Vaati The Wind Demon (talk) 22:01, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
 * really man, it shouldn't matter what a majority of average users say about canonicity, something is only canon when it is confirmed by the creators. when it all comes down to it, we really don't know anything about rosso's race and the creators haven't said anything about it yet.  therefore, until we know more, i don't think any votes need to be taken on the matter.  correct me if i am wrong, but we are an encylcopedia are we not?  encyclopedias don't just take majority votes of their users to determine the validity of facts to include in their articles.  nothing really ought to be done on this until we know for sure.  and as i said before, all this would risk doing is antagonizing the two sides in this debate by making the wiki's official position take sides in a debate nobody seems to be 100% right on.  looking at it from an unbiased point of view, rosso's ears, to me anyway, are just as circumstantial as the goron symbol on him, not really any more definitive.  i am not saying it doesn't indicate he is at least part hylian, but the fact that he has pointed ears doesn't mean much more than the symbol.  ganondorf had rounded and pointed ears in some games and rounded in others didn't he?  my point is the ears are not definitive proof of anything either.  therefore, i don't think we should be jumping to conclusions when we don't really know the definitive answer yet.  as an encyclopedia, we should be in the business of posting only known facts and possibly some theories in theory sections, but we should stick to the facts as all other encyclopedias do in my opinion.  TheLink7 (talk) 22:36, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
 * He has characteristics that the original ALttP game explicitly said were unique to the Hylians, and appears in a game where virtually every character who's not a Zora is a Hylian. I'm okay with leaving it blank, since we don't have his race beaten into our heads, but it would also be very reasonable to leave it as Hylian.
 * Furthermore:
 * "looking at it from an unbiased point of view, rosso's ears, to me anyway, are just as circumstantial as the goron symbol on him, not really any more definitive."
 * Ears are actual genetic characteristics, especially when the predecessor game ALttP explicitly set the ears as a defining trait of Hylians. A symbol on clothing is a piece of clothing.KrytenKoro (talk) 22:44, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
 * how then do you explain ganondorf having different ears in different games? i am just asking, because i personally don't think the ears are any more of concrete proof of anything than the symbol or anything else, just being honest.  TheLink7 (talk) 22:51, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Easily: after OoT/TP, in every appearance he was a reincarnation of some sort, and so was creating his own body from his own power (and therefore could make it in whatever shape he wanted, probably). And if you really think ears are less substantial than the symbol, I advise you to try crafting a Goron symbol to wear, then trying to have your ears modified to be physically pointed, and get back to me on which of those is easier.KrytenKoro (talk) 23:04, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
 * but do you know that for a fact? has it been directly confirmed?  and really sir, please understand i am not trying to be critical of your view in the matter, i am simply saying that i don't think you can say the ears are definitive proof of his race any more than other circumstantial evidence available.  that's all.  and i just don't think we should be taking sides in this debate.  we are an encyclopedia i thought, and encyclopedias only report facts for information i thought.  TheLink7 (talk) 23:08, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
 * ...seriously? I...yes, it has been directly confirmed. It is the main point of the plots of the Oracle games, of ALttP, of ALBW, etc; they are set after Ganon was slain in OoT/TP, and exists as a kind of elemental darkness that seeks to return to the Light World. As for the ears, that's also confirmed in the original backstory to ALttP, and in fact stated to be definitive proof of race in that story. These are facts, I can provide you the quotes themselves if you're really going to try to argue these points.KrytenKoro (talk) 23:14, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
 * i don't recall seeing any of that or hearing anything definitive about the ears being definitive proof tho. my point is that if ganondorf (not ganon, ganondorf) was portrayed as having rounded ears in one game and pointed in another, how can you really say ears are definitive proof of anything?  i just don't understand your arguments, so please don't snap at me.  i'm trying to understand really, but i don't honestly, at least not yet.  TheLink7 (talk) 23:23, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

Guys, he's not a Goron. He's clearly a man, a Hylian man intended to LOOK a bit like a Goron, potentially to imply Goron ancestry, or perhaps simply as a homage to Darunia. But he's clearly a Hylian man, and nothing in the game suggests otherwise. Gorons do not exist in the Hyrule of ALttP.

Anything other than him being a Hylian is speculation. He just looks like a really big Hylian man, nothing suggests he is anything other than that. Lets not have a big race discussion beyond what is told to use in the games, long pointed ears like that are a Hylian trait and he shows no traits that are unique to Gorons alone. Even if he had Goron blood in him that wouldn't stop him from being Hylian.

We need to engage Occam's razor here. Just because one theory is possible doesn't make it less likely that he's a Hylian. This discussion has now occurred three times in a row and it's absolutely nothing but speculation on speculation. 23:24, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
 * your last statement is what i have been trying to say man, it's all speculation really and truly, even that he is a full hylian. we really don't know his race/ancestry, so i don't think we should just assume anything.  i think it'd be best (and defuse this situation) if we just leave it be for now and wait until they actually give us some clarification on his race, which they may at some point.  TheLink7 (talk) 23:34, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
 * That's not what Fizzle is saying. "But he's clearly a Hylian man, and nothing in the game suggests otherwise."KrytenKoro (talk) 23:38, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
 * no no, i understand he is likely at least part hylian, but i don't see where the ears prove he is solid hylian alone. nothing in the game suggests that either is what i am saying.  can you help me understand why you are so certain he is only hylian and nothing else?  i just don't see why it's so important to argue this out when there's a lot better things we could be doing with the time and effort going into this.  the truth is we don't know his race for certain, and in my opinion i don't think we should take sides in the matter until we know for sure what the real scoop is.  that's all i am trying to say.  TheLink7 (talk) 23:49, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm not responding to your argument, I'm responding to your misrepresentation of what Fizzle said. He said that Rosso is obviously Hylian, and that the claim that he is part-Goron is pure speculation that needs to stop. As long as you understand what it is that Fizzle actually said, then I don't care if you continue to believe, off-wiki, that Rosso is also part-Goron.KrytenKoro (talk) 23:52, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
 * well if you want my honest opinion man, i do think there is a good chance he is part goron, but i am not saying that's the case definitely since much of the evidence is circumstantial. however, as we don't know he is 100% pure hylian either, and seeing how this debate has blown up, i simply suggest we all leave it be until we know something definite.  what's the harm in that?  that's what most well-respected encyclopedias do when they are missing information.  also, i see some value in at least mentioning the circumstantial evidence that does exist in the theory section.  what's wrong with that?  it's not making firm statements that he is, simply listing reasons why some feel it is possible to them.  TheLink7 (talk) 23:56, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Again, please read what I said. I'm fine with you believing whatever you want to believe, as long as you aren't misrepresenting what Fizzle said. My post is not about the debate over whether Rosso is part-Goron or not, it is purely about you misrepresenting what Fizzle said. Stop doing that, and I won't have a complaint.KrytenKoro (talk) 00:02, 13 December 2013 (UTC)
 * who is "misrepresenting" anything? i am simply saying that none of you have yet answered why ganondorf could have different ears between oot and tww.  nothing happened to him in between, so if they are able to change his ears' appearance for cosmetic reasons, then how can you say that the ears are anything concrete here?  that's all i am asking here.  and i am simply saying in my honest opinion that for the time being, it should be left alone probably because none of us really know.  TheLink7 (talk) 00:10, 13 December 2013 (UTC)
 * You: "your last statement is what i have been trying to say man, it's all speculation really and truly, even that he is a full hylian."
 * Fizzle: "But he's clearly a Hylian man, and nothing in the game suggests otherwise."
 * You are misrepresenting what Fizzle said, and trying to derail that by pushing your fantheory when all I'm asking you to do is to recant your misrepresentation. I don't want to talk to you about your fan-theory, I simply want you to be honest so that future readers of this thread aren't confused. As on HK's talk page: all you have to say is that you misrepresented Fizzle, and I'll drop this subject. You can even say that you still think Rosso is half-Goron. I don't care. I just want you to be honest.
 * On a side note, not only were we not talking about Ganon's ears, but you're lying when you said no one's answered that, as I did and you responded to that response. Please focus less on trying to "win arguments", and more on being honest, thanks.KrytenKoro (talk) 00:20, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

i don't know what your game is kryten, but it's pretty sad. no, you never successfully answered how ganondorf could have different ears between ocarina and wind waker unless it was just for cosmetic changes. i am saying they demonstrated there that they are up for changing things like that just for cosmetic reasons, nothing more. i am still waiting on an answer to that one. because if it turns out there is an example of them having just changed up ears on characters just for cosmetic reasons, it would render your argument in this case useless, and i think that's what you're really upset about here. it seems more like it is you who is trying to "win an argument" here, because i am merely trying to have a discussion with you. that's all. TheLink7 (talk) 00:33, 13 December 2013 (UTC)
 * ...my argument that "I'm okay with leaving it blank"? The one that is identical to your "it should be left alone probably because none of us really know"? ...have you really been so focused on sniping at me that you haven't seen that I support your argument?
 * For f's sake, man, fine. I said several times I didn't care about the Goron-Ganon-Rosso issue, and was only commenting on your dishonesty, but fine. It's clear that you have no concept of honesty in you, so I'm done talking to you.KrytenKoro (talk) 00:40, 13 December 2013 (UTC)
 * i'm sorry kryten, but if anyone has been sniping at anyone, it's been you at me. just look back at all your comments.  i have been nothing but respectful of you and civil, something you haven't always shown me.  and you admit now that you were more interested in trying to expose me for some kind of "dishonesty" this whole time?  that goes to show if anyone here is dishonest, it's you, as you have not been engaging in this discussion in good faith as i have.  i feel sorry for you man if you cannot separate your need for attacking someone on the other end of a discussion with you from having a calm and civil debate with someone on the merits of the debate.  TheLink7 (talk) 00:48, 13 December 2013 (UTC)
 * My God, are you serious TheLink7? You sound exactly like Ghirahim87, and considering the fact that you are a new user, and Ghirahim87 stop responding when you chimed in, and you have the same tendency to victimize yourself, you are likely the same person. You have done nothing but antagonize people, along with either blatant lies or horrible reading comprehension. And KrytenKoro, I recommend you drop the issue when dealing with someone so antagonistic. This has gone completely off-topic. What Fizzle said is correct: there is zero evidence of Rosso being a Goron. Being large and bearing a symbol does not make someone a Goron. There is, however, evidence of Rosso being a Hylian. As such Rosso will be listed as a Hylian. There is only one person who is against this, and said person is incredibly dishonest and is unwilling to accept being wrong, and as such, we can safely disregard his or her opinion. All that is in order at this point is to make the necessary edits to the article, then we can all walk away from this mess. Champion of Nayru (talk) 05:02, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

TheLink7 has been banned from the wiki, and as such there is no merit in further speaking to him. This discussion can be safely concluded. 06:47, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

the one other thing I'd like to bring up on this topic that no one seemed to address on this or the other Zelda wiki: doesn't the game tell us at the beginning, when link is looking at the pictures waiting for zelda, that the sages in this game are direct descendants of the ones from ocarina (like that's kinda the whole point, right? like that's why they're being captured and rescued?)? therefore that would mean that ONE of them HAS to be Darunia's descendant, and yes DESCENDANT, not reincarnation. The brownish skin tone, the bulky muscular build, the black beady eyes, the natural love and affinity for rocks, and the symbol on his belt are all not enough to say he is a goron, but when you consider that one of them has to be darunia's descendant, they all point back towards him being the one, and that would mean he's PART goron, I mean it's obviously not oren or gulley. I capitalize PART goron cause, while it was wrong to create an entire new username to help make his point, and he was trying way too hard to be cool and overly nice with the second one, all that ghiram/link guy was trying to say was that rosso was PART goron, not full, and everybody made it so black and white that anyone in favor of rosso being goron is trying to say he's a full goron(and I know I have a new username, but don't go there, im not that idiot, you can tell by not starting every single post with "man". i'd say given their similar tone and messages, Vaati might go by xykeb on the other Zelda wiki and he can vouch we discussed it there before I even joined here, and if not you can just go check). i'd say his race should at least be unconfirmed, not that my vote counts for much as a n00b, but the fact that three different sections have been devoted to arguing this would say it's pretty unconfirmed. just in the same way that none of the arguments in favor of goron are concrete enough, the fact that he has hylian-like ears (kokiri and shiekah all have similar ears) and the fact that we THINK gorons reproduce asexually because WE have never seen a female are not enough to say that he's full hylian and couldn't at least be part goron. Nintendo did not add all these obvious homages to gorons to this one guy in particular by coincidence. Rizzl (talk) 11:06, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
 * No I do not go by xykeb on the other Wiki, I go by *Vaati the Wind Demon* and no it doesn't say anything like that at all, the pictures are referring the Seven Sages from A Link to the Past, the maidens and the wise men. No one at all made it black and white to say he was Full Goron, we knew what Ghiralink was trying to say.  --Vaati The Wind Demon (talk) 12:52, 6 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Well my bad on that part, you talk in the same exact condescending tone and literally said the exact same things he did, "did you even PLAY the game?" "Muscles and bulkiness are the only physical similarities" blah blah. And, yea... the wise men/sages from ALttP... who were themselves descendants of Ocarinas sages, right? And yea maybe not all of you, but a lot of you did jump on the "he can't be Goron, he's HYLIAN" bandwagon, there are some of us here who're trying to say that those are not mutually exclusive he could be a mix, look at my whole long post and look at all you took from it. Rizzl (talk) 21:50, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
 * From this very wiki's article on Sages, the LBW section: "In A Link Between Worlds, the Seven Sages are said by Sahasrahla to be the descendants of the Sages who sealed the Sacred Realm long ago," = the ending of Ocarina, right? When they seal Ganon in the sacred realm? I mean... DID YOU EVEN PLAY THE GAME?? I know I'm gonna get nowhere with you guys, wikis are full of some of the snarkiest nerds out there and I'm a neww00b who really did just make this name to discuss this one point. ghiram/thelink had to go and ruin it and now stubbornness is so high that even the thought of listing his race as "Unconfirmed" is out of the question, but I really hope, even if these inferences aren't enough to make the article, that somewhere deep down you guys have to admit to yourselves he has to be part goron. Cheers Rizzl (talk) 22:02, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
 * I have no problem listing it as unconfirmed, in fact, that's probably the best option IMHO, just like Wikis listing Yoshi's Gender as unconfirmed. But for me, personally, I don't believe him to be part Goron, just a reincarnation of one, specifically Darunia, but in a different form and species, that's just my belief, not actual fact.  That's all I can say so far right now, so I can't add anymore, the only thing that can be done is reaching an agreement that everybody can be happy with for now.  --Vaati The Wind Demon (talk) 22:27, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Rizzl, "descendant" doesn't always bloodline descendant; it can mean simply inheritor. Furthermore, it's not clear whether Darunia even became a Sage in the downfall timeline. Makar and Medli are implied to be bloodline descendants, but that needn't be true for all of them. Furthermore, his race isn't "unconfirmed" - he is clearly Hylian.  Speculation  that he may also be Goron is unconfirmed, but that doesn't change that he is in fact Hylian -- and since we're not still in the 1800s, we can admit that heritages do indeed stack.KrytenKoro (talk) 02:06, 8 January 2014 (UTC)