Talk:Demon

FSA *Ancient Demon Reborn* Translation
Apparently some people have said that NOA mistranslationed when they said that Ganon/Ganondorf from FSA was the *Ancient Demon Reborn*, but that's only because they where looking at this http://forums.legendsalliance.com/topic/14202-translation-of-japanese-game-texts/page__st__1230#entry429274. However, my Friend StarFumu from Youtube confirmed that it wasn't a mistranslation at all, she subs episodes for Kirby of the Stars on Youtube and I turned to her when I made a translation of that text too http://i.imgur.com/l82VI.png. She replied and said I was mainly correct and she gave me her direct translation of that phrase from the Japanese version of that game http://i.imgur.com/dJpFN.png. This proves that there is more than one way to translate Japanese text, it could be refering to the Trident of Darkness, BUT, it could also be refering to Ganon as well, NOA translated it refering to Ganon. --Vaati The Wind Demon 18:43, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Well the translators in LA (Jumbie and Jacensolo) were also fluent and a Japanese guy (MikePeterSucks) agreed with their translation that's why I made this edit. Also, in OoT Demise was not reincarnated, rather his hatred was what "corrupted" Ganondorf. Zeldafan1982 19:32, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
 * I agree about the hatred part being reincarnated, since SS was Demise's only appearance, however, Japanese is a pretty complex language, many sentences can be translated into English and put together in many ways, Jumbie, Jacensolo, and MikePeterSucks should have mention that when they made translations as well. --Vaati The Wind Demon 19:37, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
 * The translation was only part of the reason I made the edit. Even if it is properly translated I think that this part "Ganondorf, originally a Gerudo, became the Demon King Ganon after claiming the Triforce of Power by allowing the rebirth of an ancient demon inside of him." should be changed to something like: "Ganondorf, originally a Gerudo, became the Demon King Ganon after claiming the Triforce of Power. He is a manifestation of Demise's hatred." Zeldafan1982 21:31, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Right but Hyrule Historia did say that FSA Ganondorf was a different Ganondorf than the one from OOT, but he is OOT's Ganondorf's reincarnation and anonther manifestation of Demise's wrath which does make the *Ancient Demon Reborn* thing true. --Vaati The Wind Demon 21:54, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Just my two cents on this one using my humble japanese skills... I generally agree with Vaati The Wind Demon and his friend. I think what throws most translators off is this term '邪器'(じゃき). I can't find it on any dictionary but if you take the two kanji components literally this would translate to 邪('wicked') and 器(instrument, tool, utensil, vessel etc.). So I think Jumbie and Jacensolo probably thought it would refer to the Trident but I don't know why it shouldn't refer to Ganon himself. Another thing to note is that Google translates '邪器' to 'evil' in both chinese and japanese which would mean the same as the more common term '邪気'(じゃき). Could be a typo or maybe it's a more unfamiliar sino-japanese term. What makes it more clear to me that it refers to Ganon and not to the Trident is the comma. Commas in japanese aren't that frequently used and the rules are less strict than in english. However it usually always means that something is seperated. Other than that there's really not much to mistranslate in this sentence if taken literally.

'闇の王(King of Darkness)…　太古から(from ancient times)　よみがえった(reborn)　魔の邪器(Demon of Evil)、(seperation!) トライデント(Trident) を 手にした(obtained, took)男(man)!'

So If I had to translate this sentence into english while being most literal I would probably do it like this...

'King of Darkness... evil demon reborn from ancient times, (and) the man who took the Trident.'

Like I said, just my two cents and something to think about. I think NOA got it right after all. Bakeneko 06:25, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
 * The translation discrepancy comes from 器, which can be translated as either vessel or device/instrument. Which means you can either translate it as:
 * King of Darkness... the demon's evil vessel reborn from ancient times, the man who took the trident.
 * King of Darkness... the man who took the trident, the demon's evil tool restored from ancient times.
 * Regardless of whether using vessel or instrument, the "...that was reborn/restored/resurrected from ancient times" applies to it. However, due to the sentence rearranging required for the second translation and that seems to be a little strange to be referring to the trident as having been restored from ancient times (not just from ancient times), I think the first translation is more likely. The sentence probably has a clear meaning to native Japanese speakers, but to non-native translators it seems ambiguous. Pretty much what Bakeneko said, but I had this typed up before he posted and didn't want to waste it. -- Snorlax Monster  07:14, 15 November 2012 (UTC)


 * I totally agree.
 * King of Darkness... the demon's evil vessel reborn from ancient times, the man who took the trident.
 * That's pretty much what I meant when saying that 器 can also refer to Ganon. It would practically mean that this sentence refers to Ganon being the 'wicked vessel' or 'instrument' of Demise or it refers to just another reincarnation of Ganon himself. I was and I'm still unsure though, since I have never seen this term 邪器 being used in Japanese before, so I decided not to further elaborate on it. Bakeneko 07:38, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Neither have I. And like you, I ended up looking up the characters individually. I agree that it looks like NoA got it right. Since Japanese doesn't use plurals, it could easily be "King of Darkness... the evil instrument of demons that was reborn from ancient times, the man who took the trident.", which doesn't carry the same implication of Demise, just that he has been used by demons (which he has). In fact, it would be probably better to substitute in demons for demon's in my other translations, as that seems to make more sense. -- Snorlax Monster'  07:56, 15 November 2012 (UTC)


 * I think -ら at the end of a word　can be used for plural, but they don't have to use it, so you're right. That's the problem with the context-based nature of this language but I think japanese always expect the listener to guess the obvious and here you have to refresh my memory, thou. When was Ganon ever being used by demons? Bakeneko 08:26, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
 * What I meant was that his followers have been manipulating him. So rather than being essentially controlled by Demise, he has been constantly manipulated by demons to obtain the Triforce, eliminate Link, etc. It's really open to interpretation though. And yeah, I know there are ways to denote plurals in Japanese, but they aren't required in most contexts and aren't used that often. -- Snorlax Monster  09:38, 15 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Hmm, I still don't know what you mean. From the 16 Zelda games out there, I have played 12 and I never feeled that Ganon was being used by demons in some way. Ganon as the 大魔王　is the one who is controlling demons but I don't know where the opposite is the case. Anyways, I think we can agree on the fact, that we consider the NoA translation as seemingly more fitting in context. Bakeneko 11:06, 15 November 2012 (UTC)