Zelda Wiki talk:The Darkness That Zelda Deserves

Just my two cents: http://mm.blogsport.de/2010/03/08/the-darkness-that-zelda-deserves/ --MM 10:08, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm loving the amount of interest this article has garnered! =) In response to your ideas, I feel it's a bit closed-minded to think that a game that forces the main character to "lose" would not work. On its own, of course it wouldn't; human culture and the emotional connections the player makes with the characters would never accept such an ending, that is if the title was standalone. As others stated below, no Zelda has ever taken over exactly in theme and gameplay where a previous one left off, but yet used elements from the previous one - that is the idea I am also implying here with this option. Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask, and Phantom Hourglass and Spirit Tracks explain this premise perfectly - there are connections to the previous story, but the overall premise is very different. Have the sequel take place 100 years afterward with a Link that must redeem his name, with an entirely new story, gameplay, features, and characters, however, the lingering spell of the "Fallen Link" is still around, plaguing the future hero's journey. That's what I mean by direct sequel, not exactly a Part One game, Part Two game idea. Great ideas, though, even if I don't exactly agree with them! =) 20:50, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Nicely wirtten. Ciprano119 brings up a good point, and I agree - its what the Zelda series deserves. I think the Zelda series would become much more interesting and epic if it had a darker plot twsit. In most Zelda games, it is true that you simply go around to all the dungeons and defeat the ultimate evil in the end, with a plot to keep the player going, and most of the games are easily predictable in that sense. I, for one, would enjoy a game with a darker plot as suggested by Ciprano119. I believe it would add depth to the series and excite any fan and gamer. It would certainly be a welcome plot twist as compared to the linear style all the games follow. However, Nintendo may not want to tarnish the image of an perfectly heroic Link and a Happily Ever After ending, which is what some people expect a Zelda game to contain. Not that I want an evil Link or a Ganondorf that loves kittens, but some variety would definetly add to the overall game play, and I think, make it more enjoyable. I enjoyed the article and it brings up many interesting thoughts on the issue. Midnafan321 18:53, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

{Typing out letter by letter at a two-second pace} SINGLE FLAW: Not the same hero, different heroes with the same face. Still one of the most interesting things I've seen.
 * Thanks, Mindafan! Of course it's not the same hero, but I think you get what I mean when I say that, based in the article: same attitude, behavior, and presentation in the games. But true, its not the same! =) 03:42, 8 February 2010 (UTC)


 * It's nicely written and it was quite interesting. 03:58, February 8, 2010 (UTC)

A great article and idea, the biggest problem is if this were to happen Nintendo would fix it to be more Zelda; Link has to win, and the evil must be defeated in the game itself, not a direct sequel. It's a pity I know. If it did happen it is more likely that the indecision is the only path that leads to completeing the game as either decision would lead to an otherwise unapparent evil side of Link being born from the evils of Links decision (Dark Link of course) and somehow when after this quest to defeat the new evil is accomplished Link is taken back to the original time of the decision that gave birth to it and we are forced to try to choose the path that leads to a happy ending. Thats what I believe more or less would happen if Nintendo tried to make a game using the evnts of this article, it wouldnt be excatly what we are after as they dont want to ruin Links rep as the uncorruptable hero. : TwiLink 07:02, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Of course, that's the Nintendo way - only the Metroid series thus far has an acceptable amount of "darkness" given Nintendo's standards in my opinion, and even so they've always been careful enough to get the hero to win at the end. Nintendo has always been safe with its titles, and it's just my wish that one day they will make a game a bit more deep :/ I agree with you, the odds of it actually occurring seem slim. 16:51, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

Zelda Emblem?
The problem is, the darkest Zelda games are, in my opinion, A Link to the Past (Link's uncle is killed right at the start of the game, the soldiers are turned into monsters that Link has to defeat, the maidens are seemingly killed and other characters die along the way and it only is stopped from being darker than Majora's Mask by the ending) and Majora's Mask. In neither of those games was Link portrayed as anything other than pure, and I think if you start giving Link too much ambivalence it really detracts from the involvement in the story. Impossible choices aren't the only way of introducing darkness into the series.

If people want a dark, adult RPG plot from Nintendo they could always go play some of the Fire Emblem games, and I highly recommend they do. It provides all the darkness the article is suggesting, such as choices over characters living or dying, and even more on top of that to boot, like villains you actually care about. But it's a character driven series and that's why it works. No character represents the player.

That said, when the games try too hard to be another Ocarina of Time they inevitably do play it safe, just like Ocarina of Time did (the only character to die in the game is the Great Deku Tree). People forget just how dark A Link to the Past was in comparison. Just because it has brighter colours and had a younger Link doesn't mean it was a lighter game.

Also, I think this article forgets that Ganondorf is a character too, and it has to be remembered that he has a certain amount of honour as well. The reason he doesn't place Link in more impossible situations (although you can't say he hasn't tried once or twice... he did possess Zelda, remember?) is because he doesn't want to. An evil character with a motive and personality really feels more grown up than any basic choice-based plot development, which is why Ganon in The Wind Waker and Vaati in The Minish Cap remain my favourite incarnations of said villains. Violet 22:19, 8 February 2010 (UTC)


 * All very interesting points, Violet! Oh, believe me, I've played A Link to the Past and am well aware of how dark it is, however, since Majora's Mask is a 3D title, I feel such darkness transfers much better to the player than from that of a 2D screen. I really believe visual experience makes up half of a game's influence, hence I see Majora's Mask as the darker game. And ah, brighter colors really do make quite the difference when discerning darkness, regardless of plot - you'd be surprised! =) And you do have an applicable point about Fire Emblem - since Link is, and always has been, closely tied with the player, the situations I described in the article may never see fruition - the emotional connection is too strong. Lastly, the fact that Ganon doesn't place Link in psychological situations "because he doesn't want to" isn't a valid point, I believe, as we can never truly see into the pure motive behind such video game characters, beyond what we are given, plot and quote-wise. My preposition is based on the idea of a psychological Zelda, in which Ganon would do such because of motive. I do not elaborate much as to the specific motive because it is not relevant to the article - but thus far, the villains have been quite shallow in terms of motive, and a villain out not just for selfish reasons would bring just the change the Zelda series believes. And I'm not saying that Ganon should ditch motive and personality for the sake of plot, he's just adding a psychological element to the mix! Thanks for reading! =) 04:50, 10 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Ganondorf was based on a character from an anime series, apparently... I forget right this moment but the character in question is ruthless and powerful but also somewhat honourable and was even the main character for part of it. This is what I mean about Ganondorf not resorting to cowardly situations too often. Rather than simply slaughter all in his path he tends to give them a opportunity to flee or a fair chance in a fight. This is most notable in The Wind Waker, where he could have killed Link on more than a few occasions but actually made the choice not to. I think it's important for people to understand that Ganondorf, the human Ganondorf, is not pure evil, and is even a character to pity more than hate. Of course, once he becomes Ganon, things are a bit different of course. Maybe this all only applies to the Ganondorf we saw in The Wind Waker though, as Ganondorf in Twilight Princess was clearly more monsterous. Violet 21:27, 9 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Ah, I see where you're going with that. However, I buy into your very last sentence as being the most applicable to this situation. Not all Ganondorfs are created equal! =) 04:50, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Villan Winning
Since in a game the villain wins every time you loose the villain should never be ultimately victorious in the best ending. Either 1) the villain wins this game but it sets us up for the sequel 2) there is a better ending or 3) the villian wins, but it is somehow better than if you died. 14:44, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Ganondox, the article successfully hits all three of those points! =) Not only does Link's demise by Ganondorf set it up for sequels that involve future Links trying to redeem the hero's name, it would not be the "ending" per say, but one ending in a two/three part series in which the hero eventually comes back to save the day. And in this case, this ending would be better than if Link died, for he is psychologically tortured instead of physically injured - he remains alive to see what he has done, regardless of the defeat of the villain. The villain may still die, however, his ideas will "win" even if the hero is alive. 16:01, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I think, that the villian SHOULD win. I hate when there is a happy ending becuase that is the human thing to do. Too afraid to pull the plug, reach out, destroy the world. What I think (with link representing the interlopers) that this mighthave ALREADY HAPPENED. I mean, why else was castle town built a little upnourth after its demise? Why did it demise? Why is there only one hylian town left? (Excluding the Sheek town and Ordon.) If otherwise, I think Zelda should make a sequal accesed by a password. Like lets say, Zelda Wii is Valley of the Flood and its sequal, which is released at the same time but sold seperatly, is Letters from the Past. If you finish VotF and thats were this problem occurs, you get a password, were ou can use to acess its litteraly dirrect sequal. Like lets say if you kill zelda, you will live in the shadows in LftP hiding from every hylian, every gorron, every rito (yes I think ritos should replace zoras in zelda wii, or atleast have it as a seperate race who consider their old selves, the other tribe of zoras barbaric or something) shunn him. Were he lives in sorrow. Or, if you save zelda, you will have to find a way to bring the town back as zelda gos demigod angry at you for letting her live. I think either way, you should end up in Lftp as Gannon still living, and both choices finished off. But if you wasted over a minute making a choice and both choices demise, I think that Lftp should be more to the point. -- կրակ (խոսել) -- -- 19:56, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
 * And this is what I love about these articles - it gets the population out in rampant discussion! =) Ember, having two options like you talked about above would force Zelda into a very RPGish mode, which could be painful or thrilling for the series... I could see it both ways. Its the same with the new inclusion of Wii MotionPlus for Zelda Wii... I could see that being benefitial, and hindering the game at the same time. That's how it always is with new ideas - they could be good or bad, but until we try them, we'll never know! 01:22, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

The Rolemodel
I like the ideas proposed here... But as stated above many times, Nintendo will mostly likely not corrupt one of its major heroes, at least not directly. Very few games have Link looking up to someone or learning from someone. The few being, A Link to the Past and Twilight Princess. If we could expect anything like your idea to come from Nintendo, we would have to force this decision not on Link, but on the mentor.

It could possibly have the same effect for Link. Should he enter a town he will be marked as "The student of the man who killed Zelda/castle town." As said before this whole dilemma could cause war between the races. Perhaps this would be where our Link enters. A boy trying to stop the war, only to find his old teacher orchestrating it.

Ever since I played Ocarina of Time I always wanted one thing. I wanted Link to have a group of friends aid him. I would imagine him fighting alongside a Goron and Zora. Majora's Mask made me happy when I became them but it still wasn't what I wanted. Link could join with a Goron and Zora in an attempt to end the war. They would be there mostly for story, only seen fighting in a few scenes (Possible 2nd player could play as a goron or zora if we dare to add such an option.) and there to sort of push Link's credibility After Link gets to his master in the final showdown, Link would stab his mentor through the gut, and a purple cloud would leave the mentor's body, a tear rolling down his face, uttering only, "Why..." The Purple Cloud would reveal himself to be one of our major villains, Ganon more likely than not. They controlled the poor mentor after the mentor's decision.

Now some would say, "Wouldn't the mentor know why?" But as I imagine this, I see it as, the villain controlled the mentor to the point where his soul was almost non-existent and when Link kills the body, the villain lets the mentor have full control again, just to see his favored student slay him.

This would lead to a story of Link fighting his way to stop the true evil... Where people think of him as a hero, but he sees himself as a murderer. Karak 19:01, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
 * That's actually a good idea, and truly how I started writing this article - but I chose the other way around because it not only seemed more gratifying to me (since I usually side with the villain) but more un-Zelda, per say. I could realistically see your idea in a game, however, I feel the Zelda franchise overuses the "mentor" figure. Lets just list some: King of Red Lions (TWW), Midna (TP), Ezlo (TMC), Navi (OoT), Tatl (MM), Spirit Zelda (ST), Ciela/Ocean King (PH) - this list goes on. I'd rather have a game where Link is literally out for himself and only himself, and that becomes his utter downfall, as in the article, until he must finally do something out of character - save one or the other. A darker Link is one I'd like to see, one with more meat on his bones! Whether it'll happen or not, it's most likely just a wish... 23:22, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

I see what you mean by darker, and it would be nice. I feel the need to redefine what I mean by mentor. I mean someone who sort of raised Link and/or trained him. Like Orca from Windwaker, Rusl from Twilight Princess, or Link's uncle from Link to the Past.

Or an easy way to remedy this, at the end of Twilight Princess when you fight puppet Zelda, have defeating her actually kill Zelda. Karak 01:54, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
 * And that's the darkness that Zelda deserves, Karak. You and me see eye to eye with the Puppet Zelda thing. However, with the mentors you described, I feel that for the story to work, the mentor would have to be much more involved in the plot so that the player could build an emotional connection and experience a release of some kind at his death. That's just my opinion, as the mentors you listed had minor roles at best in the Zelda games thus far, so minor that I'd feel bad killing them, but not even as close to as bad as I would feel if the character was more developed and carried a continued, vested interest in Link and his quest. 04:51, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

I understand what you mean. So in this game we would have to begin with a young link, perhaps a bit younger than usual. Show him being raised by the said mentor. A few touching scenes... Have Link run errands for him and actually show Link learning how to fight. Completely build up the character as a father figure if not an actual father... then again if it is a father it would seem too Star Wars-y Karak 04:57, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Sounds good to me! Hey Karak, have you ever considered writing a WikiExclusive for ZeldaWiki? Your ideas here may support an article that works with mine to complete the topic. Eh... what do you say? =) 05:02, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Sounds good to me, never actually wrote one of those before though. This is my first time actually getting involved in a wiki. What would I have to do? Karak 05:34, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
 * With your ideas, I feel you'd be a great candidate for it. Basically, the WikiExclusive is a written fan-made article about anything related to Zelda, completely up to you. It carries little to no rules (just no profanty, and keep the topic Zelda related), and the structure is entirely up to you, as long as the article is of a good length (2 full pages is just fine). For publication, you'd have to send it to one of the admins (or to me, and I'll send it to them) for review. And that's about it! The staff must approve it, and it will get published here on ZW. If you're interested, just let me know - the interest lately has been a bit slow. 07:02, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

I'm interested. It will be a good outlet for my Zelda knowledge and ideas. Karak 22:59, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Hope you guys succeed with a collaboration, however going back to the mentor there are a few different approaches, namely; if there is a mentor, will they accompany Link in his quest? I would prefer the solo quest idea expressed above as all games with a mentor essentially told you where to go, even ALttP had Sahasrahla and Zelda telling you where to go. Without a mentor it is completely up to you to find the right way, do you remember the NES games when you first started them up (alas I wasnt born yet) it was "Right, where the hell am I going?" I enjoyed that. However for the struck-down-mentor approach to fill this idea would need a mentor similar to Rusl's role in TP, but leave it up to you guys and your original theories for now.


 * I don't believe that version of the "tell Link what to do" mentor would give the desired effect, as they were never too close to Link at any time during the story. For Karak's idea we need a mentor figure that may not accompany Link during his quest, but be there enough, supporting him, and even aiding him possibly at some points, so that the player can eventually feel some connection to him as a character; by his death at the end, the player should feel some remorse for killing him. Someone like Rusl's character would be good, but he'd have to be MUCH more plot-involved to achieve the desired effect. In Twilight Princess, Rusl was rarely around after the story's exposition, save for the times you saw him loiter around Telma's Bar. 14:56, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

To gain the desired effect, we would have to start off with a younger Link than normal making him maybe six or seven. One that isn't skilled in the sword. A boy that is just that, a boy. We would either have the mentor take him in or something along those lines and raise him. Actually showing Link grow up, learning how to use the sword, how to wield different weapons, being a father figure. When he is little we can have it just be, "Link, go and get yourself familiar with the town." When he is older and learning to fight, start throwing in some training exercises like "Link I want you to go to the forest and kill some moblins."

Then when Link is however old. 13-15 maybe? The mentor goes to the war against Ganon or whatever we want it to be. Leading up to Cipriano's whole idea of an ultimatum. Then Link would be alone. Karak 23:25, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Link's Awakening and thoughts on a conflicted Link
Upon reflecting on all the Zelda games, I realize there are some games that have a darker theme than others; Phantom Hourglass being less dark than Majora's Mask. However, I believe the degree of darkness in a Zelda game is measured more by how the player percieves Link than how he acts in-game. If Nintendo were to make Link faced with such a scenario as choosing whether to save one or another as mentioned, than that would be the day we started to see more of Link's personality. Really, it can be easy to forget that Link never speaks in the games, reading fanfiction and browsing the web for info about the games we see his personality clearly, but really every person who plays the game only sees what they think Link would say or do when they write a story about him. Someone who played The Wind Waker might see that version of Young Link to be selfish when he left his old Grandma and Aryll on Outset when he set out to find the New Hyrule, never to see them again. How can we know what Link really thinks when he never says anything and we can only see some of his character during a few cut scenes? I think that Link's Awakening definetly has some of the plot devices you mentioned in the article - it is possibly the darkest Zelda game in some aspects. Link lives on Koholint Island, meets a nice, pretty girl, and makes wonderful friends. Yet, the only way to get back to his home is to complete the dungeons and vanquish Nightmare, and awaken the Wind Fish - destroying Koholint, even if it were only a dream. He faces a morale dilemma, because if he awakes the Wind Fish, the island will disapear. If he finishes his quest and awakens the Wind Fish, and therefore dooms Koholint, he will get to go home. Its really a no-win situation, because if he stays on Koholint, he will never be able to return home. I think Link's Awakening Link is the most psychologically-tested, he definetly has that inner conflict inside. Then again, Link never really shows his thoughts in the games, so I believe a lot of how dark we think a game could be has to do with how we percieve the situation. It could also be that Link didn't care at all for Marin and the residents of Koholint, it was all a dream, anyways, right? Perhaps he didn't have any inner conflict and hadn't a care in the world what happened to Koholint. Or maybe he thought that awakening the Wind Fish was a sacriface worth making, and knew that Koholint wasn't real anyways. I personally was sad at the ending of Link's Awakening, and any mortal who has to go through such an ordeal and see their friends vanish forever would have to have some sort of mental anguish. Part of the unique Zelda experience is the fact that Link never talks or has distinguishable in-game thoughst or much of a personality (besides the obvious traits like courage and heroism), so maybe its ultimatly up to the player's mind. He has mainly the same presentation in all the games, but what makes him special to every player depends on their thoughts as they go through the game, battling horrific foes through Link and watching as the story unfolds - we see him based off our own definitions. I still think a darker plot line would be more interesting, but maybe we don't need the tragic hero. Link may always remian the mute Hylian, but he speaks differently to all of us.Midnafan321 16:50, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree, however, the way we happen across our perception of a "dark game" is determined solely by the game's presentation. Was Link's Awakening presented through the gameplay, plot, and characters to be a "darker" game, per say? I would say no, as it keeps that "enlightened hero saving the day" kind of image no matter the direction Link takes through the story. And because of this, while "Link's Awakening" most definitely has darker aspects, the way we perceive it is not dark whatsoever. Majora's Mask and even Twilight Princess are percieved as among the most "dark" Zelda titles based on their presentation, use of color, and other physical characteristics, all of which the title I described in this article would cater to - it would not only have a psychologically-tested Link, but an apparent "dark climate", one we have not been given in a comparable title such as Link's Awakening. But I do agree with you that the majority of your opinions on the series exist as extrapolations of Link's character, one that we judge only based on body language and our own interpretation of the certain situations he is in. 17:29, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Thats completly true, and Link's Awakening would not be considered dark in those aspects, it didn't have a dark climate as compared to Twilight Princess, yet I think it is a good example of a conflicted Link. I take back what I said before Link's Awakening being dark - I agree with Ciprano119. So it is true that the game Link's Awakening would not be percieved mainly as dark; I meant more so that the in last segment of the game has a melancholy or ominous air is added when Link knows Koholint will vanish. Here is a thoughtful Link, who knows that he must leave behind the dream to finish what he started and go back home. It is a good example of a conflicted hero, or maybe oen who simply has a difficult choice he has to amke to move forward. As in Majora's Maks, when impending doom lends a general dark air to the game, or when Twilight Princess is openly smothered in Twilight, Link's Awakening isn't so much as dark, I see now, but Link's Awakening lacks a 'save both' option and Link has only one option; to leave the place he called home temporarily forevermore. But, that goes back to the whole perception concept. Also, while Majora's Mask and Twilight Princess have a dark feeling, they lack the tragic hero. Yes, there are hints of inner turmoil or conflict in Link in various scenes, but in the end everything is resolved in a mainly happy ending, while the ending of Link's Awakening leaves the player reflecting on the bittersweet turn of events, and a slight emptiness is felt - similar to the ending of Phantom Hourglass, but with a more poignant aura. Anyways, thank you Ciprano119, for your definition of a dark game, it helped clear things up. Midnafan321 18:52, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, I totally agree. =) The end scene of Link's Awakening does leave that ominous feel, and does lend itself quite well to the "conflicted hero", per say, a Link that must awaken the Wind Fish, though he may feel remorse for his doings. It seems that the Zelda series has a trend here... if they are going towards a dark title, they include either the dark storyline or the conflicted hero, but never both, as you mentioned before. Interesting! 19:04, 26 February 2010 (UTC)