Talk:Sage

The Wind Waker Sages
There is the theory, that the mastersword should have needed three(!) sages to power up its holy magic and that three dungeons had to be found. On the one hand we know, that makar is the sage of wind, referring to the goddes farore, who is known for being compared to the elements forest and wind and has its dedicated temple of wind. Medli on the other hand is the sage of earth, which is referred to din, goddes of fire and earth and also is housed in the temple of earth. So the one sage representing nayru is missing! This sage should feature elements like water/ ice and time and a respective temple. I think, that we already have been in this time based temple and have found the sage of time! I'm talking about hyrule castle, which is under the ocean! So the respective elements of time and water are featured as the frozen time and the fact, that the castle is underwater. So hyrule castle stands for the "third time based dungeon". Then we also find here the mastersword, which may have lost its powers to repell evil, but still posseses its power of time, so a mastersword sage must be praying there for this power to be intact. I heavily assume that one, to be the king himself, later on maybe passing his status to the awakened zelda. There are many similarities in the structure of the mastersword dungeons. Both have an upper entrence and a circular basement, where a sage is resting to pray. The hyrule castle is, too, entered from the very above and zelda stays in the deepest circular shaped floor in the castle, where once the masterswor was, maybe even praying for its power? (Also, it is implied in oot, that zelda is the sage of time. She is the holder of the triforce of wisdom both in oot and ww, meaning she is the person most representing the feature of laws, such as natural laws like time!) hero of courage

Twilight Princess
"temporary destruction of the Sage of Water" - It wasn't killed? I can't remember having seen this sage after the flashback-cutscene in which it was (temporary) killed.IfIHaveTo 02:12, 12 November 2007 (EST)

It was killed. The only remaining piece of the Sage was its mask and it's symbol was destroyed in the cut scene.

The Sages in Twilight Princess sound a lot like the Twilight beings, you save from becoming Shadow Beasts in the Twilight Realm. A connecting maybe?


 * What now? I don't see where you're getting the idea that the TP sages are possibly Twilight creatures. Sources? --Ando 14:16, 31 January 2008 (EST)


 * I think he's refering to the moaning sound both make. Though I agree they might sound similar if that's what you meant, I think it's ilogical to assume a conection based on this alone, seeing how otherwise the sages are completely and utterly unrelated. Onen 18:04, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Oh this is really hard...I mean you cannot really say that the sage was killed, since it never really was "alive" from the beginning, it was sth. spirit-like. But after ganondorfs fury revenge attack it surely disappeared! It frustrates me, because this means the sage of water really is lost and will never come back in the future! Or maybe the sages can come back in an evolved way, reincarnated with another spiritual power(e.g. if you look at wind waker the zora laruto isn't a sage of water, as most would expect to fit-instead she is a sage of the earth!) And what is the most frightening: What will happen to the Zoras, Zoras Domain and the lakebed Teempel if they loose their sage? Will they eventually die out? Or does this have any other effect on the zoras?-okay- The throne room and zoras river were frozen, but it's a bit unrealistic that they remained frozen during the time ganondorf was imprisoned in the twilight and even before zant came to envade hyrule... BTW, what happened to the Kokiri in Twilight Princess? They are nowhere to be found-right?! So my theory is, that if ganondorf had killed the sage of forest instead of the water sage, it would explain much more the disappearance of them! Maybe...

I'm really tired and must sleep now... your Hero of Courage


 * If the Wind Waker has taught us anything, it's that death does not stop a sage from passing on their duties to another person. 00:13, 10 September 2010 (EDT)

Sages Alive or Dead?
I've been wondering, before Darunia becomes a sage in OoT, he fights Volvagia. So did he die? I always thought he did and that all the sages died becoming sages, and controlled things through the afterlife?


 * First of all, you only needed one copy of this section. Now you do have a point. But I don't think that we can ever be sure one way or another.--Matt 01:28, 3 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Can't be. I don't have any quotes onhand but, I remember something about all of the other Sages have been killed/destroyed by Ganondorf. And then you have the dead sages of WW.Axiomist 03:39, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I think the intended meaning was that the sages all died before they awoke. Like Darunia dies when fighting Volvagia, Saria dies in the Forest Temple, etc. There is no evidence either way.--Matt 17:46, 4 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't think they're dead, except for Rauru. In the credits you can see Saria, Ruto, Darunia, Impa, and Nabooru on death mountain. of course this could possible be that when the became sages they were revived, but then why wouldn't Rauru be there? I believe Rauru confirmed he was dead, but I'm not 100% sure... also, if they died before they could awake then why didn't Zelda die? BanaBana 18:50, 31 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Zelda wouldn't have died for multiple reasons:


 * Bad storytelling. The creators simply did not kill Zelda because she was a much more important character.
 * Zelda was never forced to actually fight a boss and thus did not have the opportunity to be killed.
 * Perhaps none of the characters died. Though I may be overthinking it a little here, it's to be noted that link dies multiple times during his adventure. Perhaps he simply gets K.O. and remains alive after being killed, and the other sages did similarly. You physically meet Darunia and Ruto outside of the Chamber of The Sages, and it's a pretty "symmetrical" storyline.
 * Any other reasons. --Stalkid 08:08, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

Sages
Sages from OoT and their possible descendants

Princess Zelda- Princess Zelda in ALttP

Rauru- Sahasrahla, The Loyal Sage

Saria- Sage in Kakariko Village

Darunia- Sage on Death Mountain

Ruto- ???

Impa- Impa, Sage in Kakariko Village, Sahasrahla

Nabooru- Aginah, Sahasrahla

Okey, I came to some other conclusions, I don't believe the Sages are immortal because if they were, the sages from OoT would still be alive in TP, though I find it hard to believe the Sage of Water was really killed by Gannondork:) in TP. How can you kill a spirit? Lets just leave that one up in the air for a moment.

Secondly, The Sages can marry as Princess Zelda in ALttP is definitely the descendant of the aforementioned Zelda in OoT.

Third, how we got to the etheral sages in TP, I have no idea. I'm just gonna go with what the wiki said on that one.

Fourth, There is so much contradiction with the sages it would be hard to tell fact from fiction. Hopefully Ando found something better:/

P.S. If anyone cares, I found this on Zelda Legends-- 22:29, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Sage Death
Well, I think that they wouldn't be immortal as well. They're powerful beings, though. No ordinary person could kill them. However, perhaps someone with, say, the Triforce of Power? That might be the edge needed to kill a sage. 21:14, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Sage Timeline Discrepancies
The (confirmed) timeline is as such: child - MM - TP OoT-< adult - TWW - PH In the child timeline, the sages were never awakened (young Link didn't awaken the sages in OoT -- adult Link did), which would be why the OoT sages did not appear in TP. Who are the TP sages then? It's a good question, one I've no answer for. In the adult timeline, however, the sages WERE awakened, hence the references to them in TWW.

Not sure about where ALttP might go... :/ 21:14, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

If the Sages of TP are spirts that weren't awakened by Adult Link in OoT why does the Sage of Light look like a spirit? Rauru was "awake" before Link awoke as an Adult. --Jzime


 * The explanation is that the Sages in Twilight Princess are ethereal spirits. When a sage awakens, the spirit is inhabits the his/her body. But there was nothing preventing the Sages in Ocarina of Time from awakening in the child line. Ganondorf messed up the temples in the adult line and that prevented the Sages from hearing the awakening call. In the child line, the Ganondorf was captured before he could screw up the temples. So they all could have awakened. but the spirits would have still been separate. If that doesn't make sense, then blame Nintendo for messing it up. 19:12, October 30, 2008 (UTC)

Sage Marriage / Reproduction
Mmm... Yeah, they'd likely have to in order to pass on the sage lineage, hence several comments made in TWW: Though some might argue that "bloodline" means "the power of the sage", but that makes no sense -- I always figured that "carrying on a bloodline" was done by an actual DNA-related descendant. 21:14, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Missing section
I kind of feel like this page is missing a section... Princess Zelda! I mean, she's the Seventh Sage/Maiden in ALttP, OoT and FSA and as such is quite a large plot element, yet she barely gets a mention in this article! I've half a mind to create a new section and stub it, thought that would temporarily disqualify this from becoming Featured (and others may think I'm over-stressing the importance of this.) I just think it's a gaping hole in the information... 19:45, 4 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Yeah, that is leaving out a rather big plot in the article :/ I guess we need to work on that. I would add some information, but I have not played the said games that she appears in. Not sure how much I could add to that. 20:19, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

Zelda's tutors?
The Japanese version of Twilight Princess does not mention that the Sages were Zelda's tutors. That was an invention of the translation team. In the Japanese version, Auru was her tutor. Should this be marked as a version discrepancy?Ganondorfdude11 07:48, 4 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm going to have to refer you to the Zelda Wiki Quality Standards Page. Note the fifth point in the Language and Localization section. This is something that you need to bare in mind throughout all of your edits across Zelda Wiki. Also, this is not a matter that pertains to individual views of canon, but rather to Zelda Wiki policy. 09:34, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

First, Second, etc
The use of 'First" when referring to the Sages is somewhat ambiguous. It could be the LttP sages, OoT's awakened sages, or the ancient sages referred to by Rauru and that pesky Gossip Stone on Kaepora Gaebora. The page has gone from being a great work to an incredible one, by the way. 17:57, 25 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Point, I'll change it later to something less ambiguous (been gone all day and have to sleep now). Thanks for the support.IfIHaveTo 20:58, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Ancient Sages
Is there a reason why the Ancient Sages don't have their own section (or article)? I only ask because I was going to add that Zelda says the Ancient Sages crafted the Master Sword: "There you will find the blade of evil's bane that was crafted by the wisdom of the ancient sages...the Master Sword." But I can't find a nice place to put that, really. SO, the reason I'm thinking about all this is: The Ancient Sages made the Master Sword, which we now know was originally the Skyward Sword, apparently, so this new game is going to shed a lot of light on them, I hope.

WHOA... THAT MEANS Kaepora Gaebora helped make the Master--err, Skyward Sword! How crazy is that. O_O

Anyway. Yeah. Should they get their own article, or will they be slapped into this one? I mean "Ancient Sages" redirects here, but there's nothing on them really... They're often refered to as an independent group, so I'd lean towards their own article, especially given that this one is pretty long already... on the other hand, their appearance (or lack of appearance) in Skyward Sword will probably help make the decision apparent, but I don't want to wait til 2011 to work on it. =P What are everyone's thoughts? 21:04, 16 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Hmmm...well, the Sage article is sort of interesting in the way that it's organized. Like, the Seven Maidens from ALttP don't have their own section, and same thing with the Seven Sages from OoT. So perhaps you could put the Ancient sages before the introduction to ALttP since the Ancient Sages are talked about in the manual and not in the actual introduction. Dany36 15:43, 17 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I guess the reason I'm confused about how to write this is the Ancient Sages are mentioned in several games, but (unless they debut in Skyward Sword) they haven't made an actual appearance anywhere. I don't really understand what you mean by the OOT Sages not having their own section, cuz they sort of do... under the "Ocarina of Time" heading. Know what I mean? That group of seven Sages is discussed based on their in-game appearance.
 * There are a lot of things said about the Ancient Sages (what I understood to be the original group of Sages), but there's not really a place to organize the information about them. Like, "As revealed by Rauru, the original Sages were the ones who built the Temple of Time to protect the Triforce against those who would use it for evil", and Princess Zelda saying they crafted the Master Sword, but there's no little area dedicated to talking about just them. All the information is spread out over the whole article, so if you're just interested in looking at information about the Ancient Sages in particular, there's no way to do that the way things stand now. I'm mostly worried about the presentation. Am I talking in circles or is what I'm saying valid at all? 16:01, 17 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Hahaha nah, I know what you mean. Well, how about this: make the Ancient Sages its own section above the ALttP section and dump all the Ancient Sages information there. I don't know about making it its own page since all sage-related stuff is on this page, which is kind of nice instead of having a page for the Seven Maidens, one for the ALttP Wise Men, one for the Six Sages, one for the Shrine Maidens, and one for the Earth and Wind Sages...you know? Well, that's my take on it, I don't know if other folks will agree or disagree. :P Dany36 16:12, 17 June 2010 (UTC)
 * No I think you're right, they're Sages too - the first Sages - so it makes perfect sense to keep them on this page. Well I guess I'll start collection information and just give them a heading? =) 16:19, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

Split Maidens
This page is big. Like the lokomo, the Maidens from A Link to the Past and Four Swords Adventures should have their own page, but still with mention here. Jeangabin 09:48, 10 August 2010 (EDT)
 * Hmm...I'm not sure about this one. Maidens have a lot in common with Sages, and I hate to think that this information should be scattered in two pages. :/ Dany36 19:07, 10 August 2010 (EDT)
 * They're two separate entities though, with only a few similarities. They also appear in their own respective games, and it is just too cluttered including both on a single page, so I vote split. 19:11, 10 August 2010 (EDT)
 * I think this is a case of something which, while it originally had far too little information to warrant its own article (see this previous version ), has now been expanded enough for that to no longer be the case. So yeah, I'd say they're probably distinct enough and with enough content to warrant a split. 07:17, 11 August 2010 (EDT)

The Imprisoning War Sages
When OoT was released (and since it was meant to represent the IW) the sages in the game were those mentioned in the ALttP BS. Hyrule Historia says though, that the IW occurred many years after the DT ending and OoT no longer represents the IW. Therefore, most likely the IW sages are now a different set from those in OoT. Zeldafan1982 11:30, 23 April 2012 (EDT)
 * If the 3 timelines theory is correct then OoT is the ALttP BS so IS the IW. Anyway, we can't trust much in HH because it say that Rauru is actually Kaepora Gaebora, which is impossible since the owl is surprised to see adult Link in the Spirit Temple, and is never implied a connection between the two anywhere in the whole game.SilverArcher 15:04, 24 April 2012 (EDT)
 * Kaepora Gaebora isn't surprised, he just notes on how Link has matured, and that never strictly means physically. He very well could just be talking about how he's changed since receiving the body of an adult, literally having grown into his body. 15:22, 24 April 2012 (EDT)
 * "We can't trust Hyrule Historia"? Really, you're saying that? Aonuma oversaw everything in it, it is 100% canon. Reign - Our journey has only just begun. 16:29, 24 April 2012 (EDT)
 * What I mean is that in the original game they weren't supposed to be the same character, because if they were, Rauru would have said `` Do you recognize me? I'm Kaepora Gaebora´´ or something like that. Actually there is not any connecction between them, just a Gossip Stone that says that Kaepora Gaebora is the reincarnation of an ancient sage, and now we know he was probably Gaepora. To me, this is just another theory of some random guy on the Internet.SilverArcher 08:51, 25 April 2012 (EDT)
 * What I mean is that in the original game they weren't supposed to be the same character, because if they were, Rauru would have said `` Do you recognize me? I'm Kaepora Gaebora´´ or something like that. Actually there is not any connecction between them, just a Gossip Stone that says that Kaepora Gaebora is the reincarnation of an ancient sage, and now we know he was probably Gaepora. To me, this is just another theory of some random guy on the Internet.SilverArcher 08:51, 25 April 2012 (EDT)

In the Japanese version of the SNES game they were called Seven Sages. Therefore, I don't think it is certain that their name was changed to Seven Sages in the GBA version in order to be in accordance with newer titles. Maybe they just wanted to be consistent with the Japanese text. There was a discussion here about the same topic. Zeldafan1982 14:33, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
 * It is a bit of an assumption. I suppose we're better off sticking to the facts and let the readers draw their own conclusions. 15:13, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Rearranging according to the timeline
I think the page should be arranged according to the timeline. What do you think? Zeldafan1982 15:40, 15 September 2012 (EDT)
 * To be honest, I think the page needs splitting. It's HUGE. It's covering at least four different sets of Sages, some of which have little relation with each other. Pretty over the top. Sure, we should have a "Sage" page, but some of the groups of sages need their own individual pages. Page is WAY too big. 16:34, 15 September 2012 (EDT)

The Third Sage
This doesn't have much to do with anything, but I thought of a theory about the third Wind Waker sage. We know there's evidence that there may have been a dungeon on Greatfish Isle, and knowing Nintendo, it was probably a Water dungeon. Greatfish Isle probably had a race living on it in early development, like the Rito and Koroks. The new sages came from those races, so the third would have probably come from the race on Greatfish. The Earth Sage came from Dragon Roost Island which had a Fire dungeon, and Earth is usually related to Fire. The Wind Sage came from Forest Haven, with had a Forest type dungeon, and Wind is usually related to forest. Then the only unused element we have is Ice and Electric, the latter not really existing at that time. So the third sage was probably Ice which is related to Water, which is a common theory. All the races are also descended from a race from Ocarina of Time, the unused one being the Gorons. The race on Greatfish was probably descended from the Gorons. This is supported because one of the Traveling Merchants is on Greatfish. Also, since The Earth Sage had The Earth Temple, and The Wind Sage had The Wind Temple, the Ice Sage probably owned The Ice Temple.

So to sum it all up; the third sage was most likely an Ice Sage, from a tribe descended from the Gorons, the former living on Greatfish Isle. The sages temple surely would have been The Ice Temple. --Person777 19:55, 24 February 2013 (UTC)


 * Interesting theory, but unfortunately we don't really allow many theories in our articles. And talk pages are mostly for discussion of the article itself. If you'd like to discuss different theories though, I'd definitely recommend checking out Zelda Universe and discuss your theories there =)  21:27, 24 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Alternatively, it would just be the Temple of Time, especially due to the "river of time" metaphors used with the Master Sword.KrytenKoro 20:56, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Link Between Worlds (SEMI-SPOILERS)
Okay, so a few things about LBW totally mess up the Sage thing.

For one, the story about the sages at the beginning is in direct contradiction to the hystoria, as it claims that the royal family summoned the seven sages to seal away the Triforce, before Ganon ever found it.

For two, the portrait clearly depicts seven sages, not including Zelda (although when you see it later on, one of the Sages has been replaced by Ravio, possibly as graffiti). The game follows with this. It's possible to resolve this by claiming that the oral/written history is just mistaken, and that at some point Zelda's bloodline split into Sage powers and Hylia powers (meaning one of the LBW sages is a close relative of the game's princess), but it's not at all indicated by the game and would only be an inter-game continuity thing. Whatever.

For three, the term "Sevensage" is introduced: one of the sages claims that they are a "Sevensage", the term is highlighted, etc. Probably just a poor kludge to resolve some Japanese quote along the lines of "I am (one of the) Seven Sages", but it is what is is.

BIGGER SPOILERS HERE

For four, the sages in this game, as with the maidens in the past LttP games, are very much alive, and there is no indication whatsoever that they have passed on; in fact, while they are stuck in the Chamber of Sages for the duration of the conflict, they plan to come home.


 * Not sure the spoiler tag is really necessary, and you didn't sign your post.


 * Regarding Princess Zelda as a sage
 * I also just noticed that Princess Zelda is not included as one of the Seven Sages. The Seven Sages in A Link Between Worlds are all clearly named "descendants," so there should be a royal family connection somewhere (my speculation would be that Osfala is the royal connection). It really only means that the information on the page needs to change to be more game specific. The definition of what a sage is seems to change over time, and apparently Princess Zelda is not always the leader of the sages.


 * Regarding the A Link to the Past backstory
 * The story in Hyrule Castle has a lot of odd information. It's possible that this is just a simplified, distorted history - a "legend." Or it could be a case of a really poor translation. I'm curious to know what the story says in the Japanese release. The other possibility is that this backstory is not intended to be specifically for A Link to the Past (though that seems odd since A Link Between Worlds is a sequel).


 * The story does says that a great war was fought to keep the Triforce away from evil people - what war is this? Then it says the Triforce is sealed away by the Seven Sages and that Ganondorf breaks into the Sacred Realm and stole the Triforce....this sounds more like Ocarina of Time. Then a Hero appears and saves the day and the Triforce is split into 3 parts. It's clear that the story in A Link Between Worlds is going to be a point of debate.


 * Regarding Ravio in the painting
 * Honestly, I think Ravio's appearance is irrelevant.


 * Regarding the term "Sevensage"
 * "Sevensage" is not an official term for a sage. The term is used by one character: Gulley. Gulley is extremely young. He's younger than Link, and Link is very young in this game. When he first uses the term, it's clear that he doesn't really understand what it means. In other words, it's just a play on the words made up by a little boy. It's put in the text to give him personality. --Joshua (Yumil) (talk) 06:08, 28 November 2013 (UTC)


 * I think the legend was intentionally delivered somewhat out-of-order because the actual events involve two different sets of sages (probably, anyway) and two different sealing events involving Ganon. It's confusing for us knowing the games, imagine how confusing it would be for anyone else. As a legend, it can get away with simplifying events, which is now sort of a common theme in these legends at the start of each game to miss things out almost on purpose.


 * Also, I believe a certain line by Sahasrahla is important. He notes that the descendants Yuga are after is the descendants of the ORIGINAL Seven Sages. The fact that he describes them this way (if I remember correctly) implies that they are not actually related to the Seven Sages from the Imprisoning War (the Seven Wise Men) but are instead the descendants of the Sages from Ocarina of Time (Hyrule Historia implies that these are not the same Sages). This would explain why one of them is a Zora queen, for example, while the Maidens were all Hylian. Of course, if Princess Zelda was one of the Maidens and thus was related to the Seven Wise Men, and Zelda was also one of the Seven Sages, that doesn't remove the royal connection at all. However, there were likely to be numerous descendants, and while there are seven of them, they may of only been related to six of the Sages, while Zelda's line remained separate. So there's no requirement that one of them has a royal connection, necessarily, although that sort of fudges the idea of them being true descendants I suppose... Perhaps Impa is actually related to Zelda?


 * Also, while the legend does depict Seven Sages alongside Link and Zelda while there were only six Maidens and six Sages aside from her, it's possible that those are the Seven Sages of the Imprisoning War and are just put there for effect. They look identical to the ones previously depicted, rather than appearing as six maidens. That or Zelda is just depicted twice on the same mural. Or maybe it's a little intentionally annoying in-joke for the fans because Ravio is drawn over it in the end as if to imply that these murals are actually just depictions of events rather than what actually happened, so don't take them too seriously. 22:09, 3 December 2013 (UTC)


 * I know what you mean, and I wrote about it on my user page. Feel free to look at it if you want. --MegaTitan64 (talk) 04:18, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

A split is desperately needed...
At this point in the series we basically have THREE different Seven Sages, one set of Six Sages, two other Sages, Seven Maidens who are descendants of the Sages, and the ancient sages that Rauru was a part of. This article really needs to be split into different sections.


 * Seven Sages (A Link to the Past (aka the Seven Wise Men))
 * Seven Sages (A Link Between Worlds)
 * Sages (Ocarina of Time (was the term Seven Sages used in this game? Can't remember, I'd need to check))
 * Sages (Twilight Princess)
 * Sages (The Wind Waker)

And that's just for starters. These are distinct groups of people, and just because they often share a common name doesn't mean they're the same, and it'd be much easier to distinguish between which sages did what if they were on their own pages, in my opinion.

As for the page itself, a disambiguation page would work I suspect, but not sure. Any thoughts? 22:31, 3 December 2013 (UTC)


 * I'm in favor of splitting this article. I'm less sure if we need to keep the actual "sage" article (with a basic description of what a sage is/does with "full article" links for the different groups) or if a disambiguation page would work better. However, I'm leaning towards keeping the "sage" article with the basics. A disambiguation page seems like it may leave out too much information. There are some key similarities between all of the sages, and I think it should be noted.


 * Either way, I think the Maidens and Lokomo should be included. Anjean is specifically called a "sage" by Zelda early in the game. The Maidens and Lokomo serve a very similar purpose to the actual "sages."


 * So, I recommend the following list:
 * Seven Sages (A Link to the Past): Seven Wise Men
 * Seven Sages (A Link Between Worlds)
 * Seven Sages (Ocarina of Time): I'm not certain if the term is used in-game, but it's definitely used in Hyrule Historia (pg 93).
 * Sages (Twilight Princess)
 * Sages (The Wind Waker)
 * Maidens (A Link to the Past)
 * Maidens (Four Swords Adventures)
 * Lokomo
 * --Joshua (Yumil) (talk) 01:33, 4 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I do not agree. With the exception of TWW (which is itself the same argument, with a different group), the Seven Sages are depicted as a contiguous group whose import is in the inheritance, not the specific members. A huge part of import of each group of Sages is that they are the descendants of the last sages, so splitting the articles would diminish the main point of the Sages. Consider it something like...the Senate. You technically could cover every single Senate as a separate entity, but to really communicate the point of the concept to a reader, you'd have an overview article. HOWEVER, the article itself should probably focus less on the individuals, and more on the actions of the group as a whole; it should also reorganize per the official timeline, as there are parts where it doesn't make it clear when the "past sages" refers to another era we've seen (for example, ALttP referring to OoT's original sages, who also appear in TP). Considering the cross-game nature of the group, it would also be a good idea to stop organizing by game, ex. we have information about the new OoT sages in the TWW section, rather than with the sages themselves; the emblems should get their own section on the page too. Finally, the Beta section needs to be clearly presented as a theory, since it's almost entirely assumptions and speculation.
 * So, recommendation:


 * Seven Sages {covering ALttP, ALBW, OoT, pre-OoT, TP, FSA, with mentions of the references in TWW and SS}
 * Sages (The Wind Waker) {Wind and Earth}
 * Lokomo
 * Sages (Phantom Hourglass)
 * How does this sound?KrytenKoro (talk) 03:28, 4 December 2013 (UTC)


 * While this is a little better than what we have now, this actually falls into the trap I'm trying to avoid here with confusing which sages are what. The Sages in Ocarina of Time are never called the Seven Sages in the game, while the ones in the ALttP backstory and ALBW are SPECIFICALLY referred to as Seven Sages every time (or Seven Wise Men originally). Also there is a lot of confusion about which group of sages is which, and keeping all those on the same page adds to that. While I could argue that the ALttP and ALBW Seven Sages could be on one page, I'm not sure about the others.
 * Also the Maidens are NOT Sages. They're not called Sages. We need to go on what they are all genuinely called in each game, not who they are related to.
 * With that said, this is what they are called in each game.


 * A Link to the Past: Seven wise men (corrected to seven sages in the remake), while the maidens are simply referred to as maidens or seven maidens, never sages. Very rarely are they referred to as simply wise men or sages, usually just in relation to their seal (sage's seal, for example) rather than them as a group.


 * Ocarina of Time: Six Sages (or just Sages), despite there being a "seventh Sage", they are almost always referred to as the six Sages (once specifically as Six Sages by Saria, also specifically referred to as Six Sages in the Japanese version) or just the Sages. Never once are they called Seven Sages, despite what you would think. Zelda is described as the leader and a Sage, but somehow she seems oddly separate. As for Rauru, he speaks of the "ancient Sages" being the ones who built the Temple of Time. However, Hyrule Historia once calls them Seven Sages, which makes things confusing.


 * The Wind Waker: Sages, no specific title given, just called sages, not even capitalized. Often referred to simply as the Earth Sage and Wind Sage.


 * Four Swords Adventures: Shrine maidens, or six shine maidens, or six maidens, or simply maidens. Shrine maiden seems to be their specific title. As with the maidens from ALttP, they are never once called sages, nor is any relationship to them stated or implied (arguably as Vaati was sealed long ago, they are probably separate, as their role is to guard his seal and have presumably been doing so for generations).


 * Twilight Princess: Sages, there is also a brief mention of "ancient sages" but whether they are the same or not is unclear, although the Brawl trophy implies they are the same.


 * Phantom Hourglass: Six Sages.


 * So, personally I would go with...


 * Seven Sages (A Link to the Past)
 * Seven Sages (A Link Between Worlds)
 * Sages (Ocarina of Time)
 * Sages (Twilight Princess)
 * Sages (The Wind Waker)
 * Maidens (ALttP) or Seven Maidens
 * Maidens (FSA) or Shrine Maidens (I'm not sure on these two yet, I need to check the terms, but I'm fairly sure they are different enough to be separate)
 * Six Sages (Phantom Hourglass)
 * Lokomo


 * HOWEVER, this is a lot of different pages, so if this seems too many, I offer a contracted version...


 * Seven Sages (covering ALttP and ALBW)
 * Sages (covering Ocarina of Time and Twilight Princess and the "ancient sages")
 * Sages (The Wind Waker)
 * Maidens (ALttP) or Seven Maidens
 * Maidens (FSA) or Shrine Maidens
 * Six Sages (Phantom Hourglass)
 * Lokomo


 * This also has the happy side effect of essentially separating them via timeline, which wasn't intended but seems to work nicely.
 * I think a lot of consternation stems from the confusion over whether the Sages from Ocarina of Time are the Seven Sages in ALttP's backstory. Hyrule Historia seems to imply that these are different sages however, as it states that "many years later" the Seven Sages were asked by the King of Hyrule (who was presumably dead at the end of Ocarina of Time, so at LEAST a generation later, unless he somehow survived and hid somewhere) to seal the Sacred Realm. I would assume therefore that it is a different set of Seven Sages, but this is unclear. 15:19, 4 December 2013 (UTC)
 * The Maidens are not called Sages, true, but the entire gist of the concept is that they are inheritors of that power. Separating them would make less sense than separating the Zelda and Link articles, and would be round about as logical as separating the Hookshot and Longshot, or Master Sword and Tempered Sword. Hell, real-world countries change name all the time without transmogrifying into completely distinct entities.
 * "nor is any relationship to them stated or implied" -- this is being deliberately naive, I feel. The game is a pretty straight reuse of ALttP concepts and characters, as is ALBW.
 * "We need to go on what they are all genuinely called in each game" -- we should not be merging and splitting articles on name alone. The Sacred Realm and Dark World are the same entity with different names, meanwhile there are two distinct Hyrules in the series. The 6/7 Sages concept is clearly presented as a lineage (I compared them to the Senate for that exact reason) in every appearance throughout the games.
 * I can check the Historia if needed, but as I understand it, the order is this:


 * 1) Ancient Sages (include Rauru, appear in TP because Ganon was defeated before they had to be replaced, referenced by emblem in SS, referenced in backstory for ALttP -all timelines-) -- sidenote, the OoT recruited sages cannot be the ones in the ALttP backstory, because they weren't recruited in the defeat timeline. They have to be the ancient sages, or pooooooossibly immediate descendants of (again, the defeat timeline is a stupid idea...)
 * 2) OoT new Sages (appear in OoT, referenced in TWW -adult timeline-)
 * 3) ALttP Maidens (descendants of Ancient Sages, -defeat timeline-)
 * 4) ALBW Sevensages (descendants of somebody or other, too many of them, clusterf***, -defeat timeline)
 * 5) FSA Maidens (counterparts of ALttP Maidens in -child timeline-) -- sidenote, I don't believe the fact that they have a different duty specified is a stumbling block, as so do the ALBW sages. The main theme is a set of seven beings with semi-divine power who perform sacred duties.

Now, ALBW f***s everything up, yes, because they got the basic story of the series wrong to a hideous level. At best, it's legendary sages are a misremembering of the ALttP maidens and the ancient sages, but...it's just a complete c***shoot, it really is. They really badly s*** the bed on that one just to shoehorn in a new dungeon. However, that would apply whether it was combined with ALttP or not, because it basically writes itself out of continuity with any other game.
 * I definitely agree with splitting off the groups of "Sages" that don't fit the 6/7, colors/elements paradigm began in ALttP. But as to the ones that do, even if the details don't line up like an Incan temple, I feel it is inhibitive of reader understanding to split them based on them being separate characters, or the group recieving different titles in each game.KrytenKoro (talk) 00:20, 5 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Completely disagree about the Maidens, not sure what your point is there. They are descendants of the Seven Sages but they are not the Seven Sages. Why put them on the same page? That would be like putting Ruto and Lulu on the same page because they use the same general design. They're still separate characters, and the maidens are never called the Seven Sages and are only called their descendants.
 * I'd appreciate you not calling me naive when I state that the shrine maidens aren't the same either. They're not. Zelda reuses themes a lot, just because something is similar doesn't mean it's the same (such as the Lokomo).
 * The simple fact is that neither groups of maidens are ever called Sages, so we don't put them on the same page. They're not called Sages. We name articles by what something is called. Nobody is going to look for the maidens by searching for the seven sages. That's the nature of it. I'm not sure what your point is about names. The Dark World is what the Sacred Realm became, it is not THE Sacred Realm, that's why there are two pages.


 * Anyway, the maidens issue aside (which I'm not going to budge on), I don't think the Sages ARE presented as a single lineage at all. I think this is a common misinterpretation. While the groups are somewhat related to one another, they are not the same. The Six Sages are depicted as a lineage in Ocarina of Time and Twilight Princess as they share the same elements, but those in The Wind Waker represent different elements entirely. Sage just means "wise person", after all. The Seven Sages are also a lineage, but other groups of sages are not necessarily related. Obviously the Sages of Ocarina of Time were originally intended to be those mentioned in A Link to the Past, but this does not imply a lineage, simply that there was ONE group of Sages and then their descendants, and whether they are the same Seven Sages is now questionable. The Seven Sages in ALBW do not seem to represent any elements, and neither did the maidens or the original Seven Sages of ALttP.


 * My point is that we simply ASSUME that all the Sages are related somehow, when very little actually confirms this outside of the two sets mentioned in ALBW. There's a lot of information crossing over that we are just assuming to mean that there is a direct connection when it could simply be a homage. If Hyrule Historia does not confirm that one group is connected to another, then we shouldn't assume they necessarily are.


 * As I say, the term "sage" just means "wise person". It's been used for many characters in the series who are NOT members of a "group" of sages, such as Sahasrahla (despite being a descendant of them), the Priest in ALttP, Anjean (who is a member of the Lokomo but not the Seven Sages) and others. That's why I don't really like using this one page to represent multiple distinct groups of people. Another example would be the Knights of Hyrule, which is a phrase used specifically for two separate clans of knight, but doesn't represent EVERY knight in Hyrule. 01:14, 5 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I didn't call you naive, I called the claim deliberately naive...and it is. The FSA Maidens are very obviously supposed to be the same basic characters as the ALttP Maidens; they even include Zelda with them. FSA, like ALBW, is in essence an ALttP remake with modified graphics and mechanics. You're deliberately ignoring the obvious reuse of these characters for some reason, I don't know why.
 * "but those in The Wind Waker represent different elements entirely"
 * This is a red herring, as I'm explicitly not asking for those to be kept merged.
 * "That would be like putting Ruto and Lulu on the same page because they use the same general design."
 * Absolutely not. The sages in each group are only linked because they share a general role (inheritors of sacred power that Link must collect in order to deal with some seal or another relating to the Triforce or Ganon or something similar).
 * "The simple fact is that neither groups of maidens are ever called Sages, so we don't put them on the same page." -- I feel that's a huge red herring that would necessitate making the page much less informative to the reader, as well absolutely not a set-in-stone policy like you're implying (I've given examples earlier). Furthermore, the Maidens are explicitly stated to be inheritors of the Sages role, just as the Sevensages in ALBW are.
 * "My point is that we simply ASSUME that all the Sages are related somehow, when very little actually confirms this outside of the two sets mentioned in ALBW." -- False. The Sages in OoT are specifically stated to be replacements for the ancient sages; the maidens in ALttP are specifically stated to be descendants (and I'd be surprised if that meant a blood relationship) of the original sages from the backstory. Same with the ALBW sevensages. I'm not assuming anything about the Earth/Wind, Phantom Hourglass, or Lokomo sages -- I agree those are distinct groups. But the main 6/7 paradigm is always shown either being direct inheritors or even sharing symbols.
 * "The Seven Sages in ALBW do not seem to represent any elements"
 * They represent colors, as do the FSA maidens (and by extension the ALttP maidens), although the script does make some elemental comments (like Rossa being "fiery").
 * "It's been used for many characters in the series who are NOT members of a "group" of sages, such as Sahasrahla (despite being a descendant of them), the Priest in ALttP, Anjean (who is a member of the Lokomo but not the Seven Sages) and others."
 * Which is precisely why (esp. given that some of these, like "Priest", are bad localizations), we shouldn't be getting hung up on names and should focus on covering the unified concept.
 * "That's why I don't really like using this one page to represent multiple distinct groups of people."
 * The Sages are explicitly a group for whom inheritance of a role and working as a group throughout the ages is a main, identifying feature, much more than their identities as individuals. That they are "multiple (not-distinct!) groups" is specifically shot-down as a valid complaint by the nature of the subject.
 * Again, my Senate analogy. If someone asked you what the Senate was, would you detail every single session individually, or would you cover the comprehensive picture, including how the role passes from one member to another? That the role passes at all, that people inherit it, is honestly more tied to the discussion of what a Sevensage is in the series than even their specific duties or identities (in fact, the duties bit is where the Senate example could better justify being split into multiple sessions!).KrytenKoro (talk) 20:35, 5 December 2013 (UTC)


 * On the issue of the FSA maidens, I believe you misread my point, or perhaps I misread yours. I'm well aware that the shrine maidens are based on the maidens from ALttP. But many things in FSA are based on ALttP, and most of them are simply a homage, as the games are not even in the same timeline. The maidens have NO known relation to any other maidens in the series, anything we assume is simply that, an assumption. Hyrule Historia doesn't imply that they are related to anyone.


 * The maidens in ALttP are not the Seven Sages. They are not called the Seven Sages, they do not share the same role as the Seven Sages. They are RELATED to the Seven Sages. Including them on the same page as the Seven Sages when they are not the Seven Sages is silly. The Seven Sages are the Seven Sages. Even in ALBW they are only referred to as "the descendants of the Seven Sages", which is accurate.


 * Frankly, my issue with this resolves around the Seven Sages as a group. They are a distinct group named in ALttP alongside the Knights of Hyrule and right now there is no page for the Seven Sages as a group. The Sages of Twilight Princess are just called the Sages and their exact relation to any of the other groups is entirely unclear and purely speculative. Even Hyrule Historia states this outwardly. It says their exact nature is unknown, just that they represent the six elements. As for the Sages of Ocarina of Time, they are NOT the Seven Sages spoke about in ALttP's backstory. Checking Hyrule Historia carefully, it actually states that the Knights of Hyrule were descended from the Hero of Time, thus it's heavily implied that many generations passed, so either it's the same group but REALLY old or it's a succeeding group of unrelated people. Just to straighten that out. Whether they are actually related to the ones from OoT in any way is not stated, though the fact that all the maidens are Hylians seems to imply they might not be.


 * I could handle both the Ocarina of Time Sages and the Seven Sages of ALttP and ALBW being on the same page, because there are clear connections, but not the Sages in Twilight Princess, nor the maidens.


 * Basically, my argument is this: we need a page for the Seven Sages. We don't have one right now. Which groups of Sages are actually the Seven Sages? Only three groups actually fit the criteria of ever being called Sages or there ever being seven of them. Thus the OoT Sages, the ALttP Sages and the ALBW Sages are the only Seven Sages available. As for the rest, they can be on another page, or different pages. But I really think we need a page for the Seven Sages, specifically the Seven Sages. 04:10, 6 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree that the Maidens are not called "the Seven Sages". However, what I'm saying is that basically the only important part of their group unity, as well as the TP sages, is that they share group unity with the Seven (and much, much more than the ALBW Sages, who are just an epic crapshoot of continuity on every level, regardless of their name). I would be fine with them being separate sections on a "Seven Sages and Maidens" page, but by splitting them, I strongly feel that we would be erasing a lot of pertinent information for the readers.
 * That's my final statement, I guess, do as thou wilt.KrytenKoro (talk) 17:47, 7 December 2013 (UTC)


 * In that case, to take some of your considerations into account (and considering some additional information I've seen hinting at the Sages of ALBW being related to the ones from OoT... maybe) I'll go against my original idea of having seperate pages for the OoT Sages and the Seven Sages. However, while the maidens I think should be mentioned on the page, I don't think the page should be about them. They are an entity in their own right and important to ALttP's plot as both a quest objective and characters of their own, so are worthy of their own page.
 * With that said, here's my new proposal, ignoring the Maidens page entirely for the moment...


 * Sages (disambiguation page)
 * Seven Sages
 * Sages (Twilight Princess)
 * Sages (The Wind Waker)
 * Six Sages (Phantom Hourglass)
 * Lokomo


 * The Seven Sages page would cover ALttP, OoT and ALBW (and perhaps make sense of the "crapshoot" as you say, though given the entire series is ripe with continuity errors that's probably wishful thinking...). It would also mention the Maidens and the Twilight Princess Sages but they will have their own pages. The Twilight Princess Sages in particular are confusing as they are also called the Ancient Sages.
 * I am going to go ahead and essentially make the Seven Sages page, but I will not split anything from this page until I'm done and people are happy with it. 18:05, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I guess I will say one more thing: I don't get why the Ancient Sages of TP aren't being interpreted as the same Ancient Sages from OoT, given that in the TP timeline, Ganon didn't enter the Sacred Realm and take over Hyrule, necessitating them to be replaced. I don't have quotes on hand, but isn't it indicated in OoT that he killed the original sages, or something? In any case, the fact that they're both called Ancient Sages, and that Rauru has no reason to have not been a sage in TP, make me think they're the same group.KrytenKoro (talk) 21:42, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Frankly, those Sages are confusing to me. Brawl lists them simply as "Sages", and no quotes in the game indicate that they are THE "ancient Sages", just that they guarded the Mirror of Twilight since "ancient times". They share the elements of the Six Sages but show no other indication of being related to them, aside from an early version of them looking like Rauru (this early concept was dropped, however, perhaps because they didn't want people to think this). Hyrule Historia states very little about them, but does say the phrase "Ancient Sages", but at the same time it doesn't mention anyone else was involved in the creation of the Temple of Time other than Rauru, so whether this was intended to link to that one quote from OoT is a bit of a stretch, because it also states that their true nature is unknown and refers to them as "the Sages of this era". Skyward Sword also brings into question the idea that any Sages were involved in the forging of the Master Sword.
 * While it is possible, nay, even potentially quite likely that they are the same Sages that made the Temple of Time, it is also entirely unknown whether this is the case or not. They may be a separate group of Sages, perhaps an intermediate group that existed when the Twili were sealed and have since remained at the Arbiter's Grounds. It's also unclear as to why there are only six of them, or if one of them is Rauru then does he protect both the Mirror of Twilight and the Chamber of Sages at the same time? Can he even do this?
 * As for Ganondorf killing the Sages, that was in Wind Waker, I don't believe there are any quotes to that effect in Ocarina of Time.
 * I think your guess is right and potentially likely, but the issue is we simply don't know for sure. Obviously we would mention the theory that they are the same ones. I think information about the "ancient Sages" mentioned in OoT and TP should probably be discussed on their page. 23:39, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
 * That clears up a lot of confusion for me, then. Yeah, I have no further complaints, sorry for all the friction on this one.KrytenKoro (talk) 22:56, 12 December 2013 (UTC)