Talk:Rito

Zora Evolution
We need to come up with a way to write this in a non-POV way. Is there any canon evidence to suggest that the Rito are evolved from the Zora? The Rito post-office guy has a character model that bears a striking resemblance to the postman from OoT/MM, and this suggests a human ancestor. --Jin 00:18, 5 October 2006 (CDT)


 * Considering that the Zora symbol appears on Medli's dress, in addition to several other references cited in the article directly from the game, the theory of Zora evolution is just about as sure as the existence of gravity (to which is known, but not the source of gravity). I think the article should state evolution as a legend rather than a theory at this point. --Marinko 11:48, 18 May 2007


 * The problem is, it may not be evolution. They could have been transformed by magic, and probably were. Therefore, to call it evolution would be inaccurate. Obviously, the entire thing is a subject of debate and probably should be left out of the article altogether, or at least called something rather neutral. --Jase 13:02, 18 May 2007 (PDT)

Zora-Rito Theory
'I've had to divide each reply and re-reply, because anyone not involved in the discussion wouldn't be able to follow it otherwise. I may express a point of view, if I can ever find the time to read it all!!' --Adam 14:34, 5 December 2007 (EST) Stop removing counter evidence for the Zora-Rito evolution theory that is of the same value as pro-eviden (that's not a word, is it?). I admit that it may look a little sloppy now. I'm prepared to change it into a better looking section one of these days, but please let it stay the way it is now, so that I can easily edit it (without forgetting any topics).

I'd also like to note that whatever some people state, it's nothing more than a theory. Many people do not believe it, and their opinion is not of lesser value than that of those who don't. Hey, I believe Fado is Mido's sister, but you don't see me removing the counter arguments, now do you? Anything that is not downright stated and has believers and non-believers should have a few counter arguments. Simple as that.

Now, I'd like to have one question answered though. What does "Monarchial system like the Zoras" mean? How many monarchial system do exist? Like, how is the monarchial system of the Deku, the Hylians and the Ikanans (whatever they are) different?IfIHaveTo 02:21, 8 November 2007 (EST)


 * The Zora have a monarchical system in which they worship a god, and have their king as a supreme ruler who's primary duty is to relay that god's commands, and an attendant to the god. Or at least, that's how I understood it.
 * So Medli would be analogous to Ruto, the Chieftan to King Zora. The Hylians, Ikanans, and Deku have a traditional monarchy.
 * How does that Rito resemble the Postman, anyway? Its only claimed by him on the figurine, anyway.
 * As for the interbreeding thing - it does not explain why the Zora emblem is prevalent even upon the higher members of the Rito, and its the exact same argument as point 3. Thus, point 3 is the only one really claiming anything in relation to the argument.128.211.174.192 13:01, 8 November 2007 (EST)


 * Okay, I get the monarchial system thing now. It indeed resembles each other's, except that the monarchial system of the Zoras seems to make the royal family responsible, while that is not the case with the Rito. Also, they use a different title for their leader (King vs Chieftain). They still differ from each other in ways that are just as prominent as the ways they also differ from others.
 * [[Image:Koboli_Figurine.jpg|thumb|100px|right]][[Image:Postman_ooa.gif|thumb|90px|left]]

Figurine: Koboli is the third generation in a family of postmen, but rummor that an ancestor of his in a ago gone by was also a postman...

That's how they resemble each other. Without the figurine's description, I wouldn't have considered it enough, but these two facts together are strong. Then again, a "rumor" is nothing more and nothing less than a rumor.
 * I have ONLY seen the Zora symbol on two occasions: Medli's clothes (which can be explained by her heritage). And on ONE of Komali's outfits (come to think of it, it might have been his second outfit's necklace). So, where else? Komali's I can give a few theories for if you want.IfIHaveTo 14:03, 8 November 2007 (EST)

In reply to the recent edits of the Zora/Rito evolution, I have the following to say:
 * 1) The Zelda Universe is pure fiction. Like hammerspace, the rules and definitions of reality do not always apply. While I'll be the last to shout "magic" as answer to a fictional issue (I absolutely hate that), it cant be ignored in this case. If the Zora made the change to Rito, magic is the only answer and it also might be the case for a Zora with Rito descendants. The terms of species and race are used interchangeably for the creatures-of-one-group-with-a-similar-appearance in the series. But we have no clue how the "races" relate to eachother! Who can give me proof a Zora and Gerudo can't have kids (that are capable of getting kids later)? Who can give me proof a Yook and Korok can't have kids together? No one can, because the series never stated anything. You know, for all I care, Laruto slayed a Rito girl, did the little healing song, put on the mask and went on making one of Medli's ancestors with another Rito.
 * 2) About the Rito resembling the Zora qua culture; stop saying that. I already said earlier that there are just as many differences (I have yet to see a Zora mail(wo)man, hear them call their leader "chieftain", etc.) as similarities. Secondly, and I'm only realising this right now, people consider the Zora and Rito similar qua culture based on OOT's interpretation of Zoras. But how comparable are the Rito to TP's Zoras (I'm leaving the OOA Zoras out of this for obvious reasons) for instance? Now, one could argue that game came later, so it doesn't apply. But if the two were intended to be similar, wouldn't Nintendo keep them closer related? The current arguments are the best I have seen as of yet: they are stand-alone, non-sidetrack arguments and no side is being favoured (at least, not to my knowledge). IfIHaveTo 08:16, 20 November 2007 (EST)


 * Sigh* Here I am, trying to discuss what to do with the zora-rito evo theory. Here I am, replying to an invisible, silent force once again.
 * Sea Zoras and Rito DO NOT have similar cultures or whatever. I explained that twice already, and since I'm not getting a reply, I am reluctant to explain it once more. You know, I have a problem with theories and opinions being presented as facts to support another theory. I feel like I'm dealing with people of the kind that is convinced Julius Cesar and Jesus Christ are the same person based on "facts" such at that both have the initials J.C..
 * The other arguments are facts. They started the theory. No one is able to convinve me that anyone thought the two cultures were similar, prior to having met Laruto and hearing of this theory for the first time. The theory creates its own proof so to say.
 * Before I end my message, I'd like to reveal the horrible truth to the people here: I'm a Dutchie; ENGLISH IS NOT MY MAIN LANGUAGE!! There, I said it. To say my "grammar is appalling" is very, very rude and shows no signs of respect whatsoever; even if it would be my main language. I wish people would have been this "precise" earlier, so that making a reasonable text out of a pathetic list would not be up to someone with "appalling grammar". I am very well aware that my English is not perfect, though I doubt it is thát bad. IfIHaveTo 07:46, 21 November 2007 (EST)


 * P.S. I want Medli and Komali specifically mentioned, because there's an odd rumour going around that the zora symbol can be found everywhere on Dragon Roost, which is not true. At least, I couldn't find anything when I went looking and no one as of yet has been able to mention another spot than the ones mentioned. IfIHaveTo 11:26, 21 November 2007 (EST)


 * ...Zora/Rito culture - both have a setup in which there is one main guardian deity as supreme leader, and a king/cheiftain as intercessary, with the princess as the god's attendant. Yes, they have different professions - because one group has wings and the other doesn't. Zoras were in charge of keeping charge of the Zora River. The Rito can hardly do that. Besides which, not all Rito are postman, and not all postmen are Rito.
 * What's so different about TP Zora? The only known difference is that apparently Jabu-Jabu is missing. They still have a very chieftain/prince-based system, without strong parallels to that of the Hylians.
 * "grammar is appalling" - It was. I'm sorry, would you like me to just change that grammar, and go through an edit war when you disagree? I was not critiquing you, I was critiquing the grammar, and I'm sorry if you took it as a personal insult. However, that grammar was appalling, and that's why I reworded it.

The Chieftain seems to have a variation of the Zora emblem, though the harp emblem seems to be the Rito-specific one.
 * On another note, how is there not a parallel to Fado and Makar? That's part of the genesis for this theory - Kokiri explicitly evolved into Korok, and Rito and Zora have a "descendant" type thing going on to.
 * Also "Despite them all being Hylians, among their (supposed) ancestors were a Kokiri, a Sea Zora and a Goron." - what was wrong with wording it "it is not certain whether whether they are descendants of these or the previous sages"?
 * "Furthermore, many races have been absent in games that did display their, in other games, confirmed habitats." - this can only really refer to Gerudo, which is why I linked to it. This is the appalling grammar I was talking about, by the way - why was it reverted?
 * "Even if this was a change enforced by the Gods to ensure Hyrule would be left a secret, it would be odd that the Fishmen, who are confirmed to have some knowledge of Hyrule, are allowed to stay the way they are. Finally, the Zora symbol on the two Rito children's clothes can be explained by Medli's heritage. If at any time a Rito and Sea Zora decided to live together and get children, it is likely that the Zora would bring some of their belongings with them, explaining how the dress and necklace could have found their way in Rito possession." - Same as this - I removed no information, and only endeavored to make the wording more clear - why was this reverted?KrytenKoro 04:41, 26 November 2007 (EST)
 * As for the figurine of Koboli - first off, it says "a postman". Big whoop. While indeed, it seems to allude to The Postman, it even qualifies it as a rumor. Even then, if Hylians did contribute to the Rito? It would still count as Zora to Rito. If Mules are able to start a new species, the ancestor species will still be Horse+Donkey. It won't suddenly be "the species with no ancestor".128.211.183.21 04:44, 26 November 2007 (EST)


 * Zora/Rito:


 * 1) both have a setup in which there is one main guardian deity - Partially agreed (point 5)
 * 2) supreme leader and a king/chieftain as intercessary - Okay, this is regardless of the comparision between the Zora/Rito. When was it specifically stated that that is the relation between the deities and the leaders?
 * 3) with the princess - Medli is NOT a *bleeping* princess
 * 4) as the god's attendant - No, Ruto fed the whale deity. Whether she was his attendant or not is unknown.
 * 5) You get what I mean; there are more/just as many differences than/as there are similarities. How about the overall culture? Mayan vs Fairytale-mermaid? How about my argument about the OOT Zora being the only ones comparable? Jabu-Jabu left them! Like, how long have they been without a guardian? How does that keep things comparable? Because then there are way more similarties with other races: the Deku, the Hylians, the Ikanans (whatever they were), the Cobble Kingdom's inhabitants; without a deity (which is the case, unless we are going to play the  "if"-game), it's just a regular monarchy.
 * Look, even if the grammar was appaling, there was no need to phrase it like that, or even mention it at all. You know, every time I changed the text, I took your edits into account, looking carefully what was the better sentence (btw. you kept removing the words "the fact that" somewhere, which broke the unity of the sentence, thus I always changed that back). I did my best to make something good out of a meager list and the opinions of others. It doesn't matter whether I didn't do it well. I tried to compromise qua grammar and arguments; I tried. A little more respect for my work wouldn't hurt.
 * With all due respect, saying the Rito Chieftain has a variation of the emblem is in my opinion a case of extremely creative thinking, two or three steps too far. This is searchign for meager bits that could be proof assuming the theory is correct. That's not the way to treat possible evidence.
 * I am not saying there is no parallel. However, I, as you may have noticed, do not want *anything up for debate* mentioned as evidence (as it is debatable) and certainly not as fact. The Sages-thing is already shaky, due to the Imprisoning War theories. I'm not entirely sure about the situation. Regardless, why does everybody keep going on about the word "descendant"? Laruto more often uses the word "bloodline", specifically family related. While I don't believe the Zora evolved in the Rito, I do not doubt Medli truly is Laruto's descendant. Unless of course the japanese word for bloodline also doesn't mean family-related. *gets the feeling she's forgetting something* Oh yeah, about Makar-Fado-Medli-Laruto-Zora-Rito-Kokiri-Korok: it is up for debate-not comparable. SOme people believe the Korok are the "original" form, and the Kokiri were only something temporal. The transformation was simply reverting back to the original shape once the invisible/human form did not have any use anymore. Uhm, my user page has some info on it, if you care to read. The point is, while I understand your wish for having it mentioned, I don't think the two races are comparable enough. You know, with Kokiri/Koroks seemingly being ageless, magical creatures that reincarnate rather than reproduce.
 * My problem with the sentence "the previous sages", is that we have not clue what the *bleep* Nintendo is doing right now with the Sages. The games (Wind Waker and A Link to the Past) seem to suggest it's bloodline only. Zelda seems to suggest it's bloodline only. Why wouldn't the "previous" sages (you're not refering to the TP ones, right?) be family? It's an awkward turn around the subject.
 * What did the text used to be?
 * That's not the point. Than still we have horses and donkeys. They did not evolve or transform or anything. Only one child did. I'm not arguing Medli's heritage. That, I am convinced of. But to say the whole race evolved or transformed from another whole race, that is way more apart than horses, donkeys and mules, that just is too much.IfIHaveTo 14:46, 26 November 2007 (EST)


 * Well, there's that King Zora XVI guards the entrance to Zora's Fountain, and "As chieftain of the Rito, my first

responsibility is to solve this problem.". For Medli - first off, its a comparison, as she's obviously high up in the Rito hierarchy. Second off - how do you know? There's a prince in the aerie, and the prince's grandmother is her mentor. In any case, what matters is the obvious similarity, which no other race has.
 * "Whale Deity" - you want to talk about "bleeping"? It's a fricking fish. Everything in Zora's Domain is a fish. There are no whales, especially that far from sea. About the attendant - that's what an attendant does, is attend to someone.
 * Cultures - ...Rito are not Mayan. Inca, maybe, but only in that they dwell in the mountains and wear appropriate clothing. And "Fairytale-mermaid" really isn't a "culture"-type - both tribes worship a guardian deity, much more than other tribes are seen to (beyond the Korok and Kokiri, and how's that for a parallel?), and both have a king who has the deity as one of his chief duties, and some kind of noble who attends to the deity's daily needs. They populace itself is very centered around the tribe's almost singular duty, and spread out across Hyrule, unlike many of the other tribes, to perform it - for Zora, this is ensuring the water's flow and its quality. For Rito, this appears to be the postal service, though otherwise both tribes stay in their mountain domain. Furthermore, a lower royal of both tribes takes care of a Spiritual Stone/Pearl, unlike the Korok/Kokiri and Jabun, where the Deity holds it, or the Gorons, where the patriarch holds it. That's a hell of a lot of similarity in culture. You could even mention that protecting a temple, for the Zora, is a tribal duty, not just that of a sage - in both OoT, MM, and TP.
 * The TP and MM Zora - while the MM Zora seem to be much more lenient in that regard (it is a parallel universe, after all), the TP Zora still have the devotion to duty thing that other tribes are lacking. And while Jabu-Jabu certainly seems to be missing (though we can't be certain, as we can't actually visit that part of the Domain in TP), they still "worship at the Lakebed Temple", which in OoT (if it is the Water Temple, though that's almost obvious) is where they worship water spirits - which could very neatly include Jabu-Jabu (hell, Jabun is the Water/Sea Spirit in TWW, and he's almost the same creature). Yes, they have less emphasis on it, but you only meet two royal Zora anyway, and one of them is more busy with getting the other to be responsible (and being dead). Or, conceivable, Jabu-Jabu died or fled when Zora's Fountain froze again. Whatever he did in OoT, one would think.
 * Or, and it pains me to say it, if TP is in the "Child Timeline", you would hardly expect the Rito to act more like them than the OoT Zora.
 * "Rito Chieftain's Emblem" - yes, it's a bit farther than the emblem on Medli and Komali, but it still seems to clearly be there - three orbs inside three arcs. It's much more rectangular, but it's clearly there. However, it is a bit farther than would be worth claiming as concrete evidence - as soon as I can hook up to my copy of TWW, I'll be able to perform an actual search.
 * ...I'm still not seeing what was the problem with changing the grammar. It was not a personal attack - it was an explanation for why I changed it. I did respect that you were trying to compromise, which is why I didn't just remove the lines entirely. However, the grammar was, indeed, lacking.
 * "SOme people believe the Korok are the "original" form, and the Kokiri were only something temporal. The transformation was simply reverting back to the original shape once the invisible/human form did not have any use anymore." - they "changed into a form more suiting there environment" (I think the game phrases it slightly differently, but...); that is almost word for word the definition of species adaptation and macro-evolution. Yes, the Kokiri and Korok are forest spirits, but that would still be evolution. Besides, why would the human forms need to be in the first place? I can understand Korok forms being useful for flying and floating - but the Kokiri in OoT were already totally isolated, and would have no need for a form that could interact with humans. And no suggestion is ever given that they reincarnate.
 * "But to say the whole race evolved or transformed from another whole race" - and that is the fatal flaw in the arguments against this theory. There is NOT the claim that all Zora became all Rito - only that the ancestors of the Rito are the Zora. Oracle of Ages seems to clearly show that the Zora are doing fine for themselves in other lands - PH shows this as well. The question is not that all Zora went extinct - that's not even what evolution would imply. The question is whether Zora are the ancestors of the Rito - and Medli's instance seems to clearly point out that they are, the additional similarities notwithstanding.
 * "that just is too much" - disregarding the instances of OoA (if it is in "another timeline") and PH (since those are River Zora) - why would that be too much? The Koroks, in that game, blatantly show that it is possible. The dwindling blood of the Hylians is accepted without thought as a main factor in the ancestry of "Hyrulians" (which is a fan-made misnomer, as all who live in Hyrule are Hyrulians, and many "Hyrulians" don't live in Hyrule). The same is thought of the Sheikah, and Gerudo (though, those are all humans, so it doesn't really count, as they are the same species - however, TP and OoT seem to indicate that Zora might be able to interbreed with humans as well - then again, only in that Ruto or that one girl in TP are attracted to Link/Ralis). All the theory is saying is that Zora are the main biological ancestors of the Rito. The Zora can still exist, side-by-side with the Rito. It's called an evolutionary offshoot. The only real argument against the theory is that there seems to be hints at a possibility for Zora-Hylian romance, and the offhand joke about the Postman. And then, that the culture and biological form more closely resembles the Zora than the Hylians, points that it is the major contributor. All the hullabaloo about "but why can't the Zora just live in the sea" is a misunderstanding of what evolution is.KrytenKoro 06:36, 29 November 2007 (EST)


 * Uhuh, if I were leader of a certain group of people, my first responsibility also would be to make sure they live to see another day. That's the first priority of a leader and has nothing to do with Valoo, or rather, the fact it in this case has is not relevant for the meaning of that quote. And, duh, attendants of gods/spirits ALWAYS are high up in the hierarchy. During the middle ages, the only way for the lower class to make a career was to become a nun/monk. High position comes with the job. Medli most likely only is high in hierarchy because of her being Valoo's attendant. Ruto was high in position due to being a princess, and sidestep because of being the whale's feeder. Medli most likely did not know Komali's Grandmother (on a personal level) until she was chosen as the next attendant. First off, otherwise she would not speak about her as Komali's Grandmother and secondly, she said something of that nature when playing the harp. I'll look up the exact quote later, if you don't mind. Also, didn't the Rito used to worship two more gods? Weren't Zephos and Cyclos their gods as well?


 * P.S. I don't think it matters for this discussion what Jabu-Jabu is. Whale, fish, or a horse without legs, it's not relevant. Otherwise: "He is a giant fish (or, more likely, a whale, as he has no dorsal fins and a horizontal fluke rather than a vertical tail-fin)" - picked up from somewhere.


 * Again, who cares? I know zip about South American cultures. I can recognize them as SA, and that's it. And how is Fairytale-mermaid not a culture type? You know what cultural atmosphere I'm trying to describe. It's far apart from the Rito culture. Look, I understand all your arguments, but seriously, most of them are either farfetched or arguably only of recent date (for instance Jabun holding the pearl, which could very easily be the result of Ganon killing the other (potential) holders of that one island.) Like, I really can't remember the Zora being so concerned about the rivers' and lake's water. I already gave my thoughts on the noble-issue. Medli is not of noble (Rito) blood.
 * The MM and OOA Sea Zoras are not of concern in this issue. The area in which TWW takes place is Hyrule, not Termina, not Labrynna. It is never said that the Zora worship at the temple, not in TP, not in OOT (or maybe I didn't find the quotes you are refering to?). Yes, Jabu-Jabu COULD still be with the Zoras, but "could" and "if" are not arguments (I already said I wanted to avoid those as much as possible). And if he's not there, that breaks the connection of Zora-JabuJabu-Rito-Valoo.
 * I do not want to see "if"'s and the likes, and that includes timelines.
 * A bit? Seriously, that emblem is nothing like the Zora emblem. That's like comparing a comb and a fork.
 * Look, I am not angry about you changing the grammar (thumbs up for trying to improve an article), or considering mine bad. What does trouble me is that you out loud said it and used the word "appalling". Euphemisms were invented for situations like these, so next time, please find a less offensive description like: "The grammar could use some improvement".
 * No, it isn't. The wording was decribing shapeshifting, or the choosing of a body by creatures without one. Evolution in both the Rito and the Korok case is out of the question anyway, because that needs a lot more time (like, several millions for such severe (fish-bird, flesh-wood) changes). A reason why the Kokiri in OOT could have temporarily taken on humanlike shapes could be because of Link. And yes, that suggestion IS given. We have never seen Kokiri/Koroks of different ages, suggesting that they might not do the reproduction thing. But the foremost argument is that Fado appeared out of Makar on BOTH occasions (Makar even changing into him on one occasion), while Laruto always appeared next to Medli. Like Fado and Makar are the same being, and Medli and Laruto two different ones. Fado-Makar; Check at 4:31 & 4:53 Laruto-Medli; Check at 0:30 & 1:08 Sorry, but I couldn't find the other two scenes.
 * It is unknown how OOA and TWW relate timeline wise and the PH Zora A. live in a different dimension and B. are River Zoras. Anyway, if that is your answer, at least the "Zora-are-gone"-argument has to be removed, as it is not proof anymore.
 * WoooH! That's not true. I always thought the Hylian/Sheikah/Gerudo-blood thing was bull, and I know I am not the only one. It is not taken as a fact at all. As for the Zora-Rito attraction, here's another one: Zora Link and the girl of the chest maze in MM. There is some attraction between the two species. What that means for the possible Rito-Zora relation is unclear, or rather, it can be interpreted as a thousand different things. Like I said, evolution has absolutely nothing to do with it. Evolution can never have been the reason for the possible transformation. I do not think one example can be used for the two entire species/populations.


 * Come to think of it, we're losing sight of things a little. This shouldn't be about whether the theory is true or not, but what arguments are legimate and how they should be phrased. I still think the culture one is way too farfetched to be worth of mentioning, and the Kokiki-Korok "parallel" A. not comparable and B. not relevant. If you want, we can ask someone else (Adam?) to give his/her opinion on the relevance/fact of a couple of the arguments. IfIHaveTo 12:50, 29 November 2007 (EST)


 * They pay respects to Zephos and Cyclos, yes.
 * Valoo's anger isn't actually endangering the Rito. Only making it impossible for Komali to get wings.
 * In OoT, the Zora are specifically stated as being responsible for Hyrule's water. As for Medli...she is one of the highest ranking members in the tribe, and their is no actual evidence against her being noble, besides lack of title tacked on to her name. And it is specifically said both in OoT and TP that the Zora worship at the temple.
 * ...the emblem is a rectangular version of the Zora emblem. It's really not as far off as you claim. Yes, it's not obvious, and I could be seeing things that weren't meant to be there, but it does have the "three crescents with sphere in middle", adapted into rectangles.
 * "Evolution in both the Rito and the Korok case is out of the question anyway, because that needs a lot more time (like, several millions for such severe (fish-bird, flesh-wood) changes)." .....so what about the Zora being magically evolved from fish, like their background states?
 * Again, I don't see what you mean by "fairytale-mermaid culture". If you mean "Little Mermaid", it's nothing like that. If you mean selkies, also nothing like that. Hell, I can't think of any fairytale mermaids "cultures" remotely like the Zora, except for being aquatic. The closest you could say is Laruto and Rutela's clothing, and that's actually fairly persian-looking (for Rutela), or simple medieval possibly Roman (for Laruto).
 * ...the PH Zora do not live in a different dimension. How does everybody forget about Linebeck? Whatever Oshus meant by "his world", it was clearly not the Great Sea that you spent the game on, or Linebeck would have stayed with the spirits.
 * "Like I said, evolution has absolutely nothing to do with it. Evolution can never have been the reason for the possible transformation."...except that that is what the theory of evolution is specifically for. Evolution itself requires no set length of time - in fact, the most recent theories have that it can happen very fast, and if the Rito are not actually full-birdmen (since they require magic to get their wings...), they could still be quite piscine - after all, there are plenty of fish with beaks, and Zora already have scaled feet, so it really wouldn't be that far of a change.
 * Okay, I'm calling BS on that one. Makar is NOT Fado, and just because the spirit slides out from behind him gives no indication that he is changing into Fado or is his reincarnation. At most, it is due to their spiritual nature, whereas Rito and Zora are more fleshly beings. As for the Kokiri being human because of Link - no, that indication is not given. The gossip stones, what hylians know of Kokiri, and the way they live indicate that they are not merely in disguise - hell, the Kokiri sword is a "traditional sword of the Kokiri", and is made for their proportions, not a Korok-like one. They did not suddenly develop the tradition in the six or so years Link was living with them. The Deku Tree is said to be somehow their father, so they might possibly be some kind of manifestations of him, or whatever craziness, but the description given for what happened them is not "they no longer needed human forms to dwell among men" (since they actually do more of that than they did in OoT...), and almost word for word fits the definition of evolution.
 * I still think the culture is much more similar than any other race, but fine. However, the Kokiri-Korok parallel IS there.KrytenKoro 11:26, 3 December 2007 (EST)
 * Also, Jabu-Jabu is outright called a fish at least in OoA, and I think OoT as well. Plus the whole "scaled fins" thing. I know the tail is messed up, but they make that mistake for mermaids too.KrytenKoro 11:46, 3 December 2007 (EST)


 * What, yes? No more reaction than that?
 * And then there's the fierce, polluted winds damaging part of the island, those semi-earthquakes and if I'm not mistaken, the volcano being more active (I vaguely remember the lava at the start of the temple being gone when Valoo is saved, but I'm not sure).
 * Again, you don't know. Oh, what was the quote again? "Prince Komali's grandmother saw me carrying it one day and called out to me to stop. She'd seen my fate in the curves of the instrument, you see. She eventually became my teacher, and that's how I became the attendant you see before you today." - Doesn't sound anything like "I'm of noble blood, which is wh I became Valoo's attendant". Yeah, there is no evidence against her being noble, but there is no evidence indicating she is either. It's just an assumption. It is not fair to state something based on nothing and then expecting the other party to come up with counter evidence. Like if I'd say Zelda and Link in OOT are brother and sister, because Zelda's mother is not seen or mentioned and we know Link's mother died when he was just a baby, there's nothing you can say to disprove it, despite how unlikely it is.
 * Quotes from OOT and TP regarding Zoras, praying and the temple:


 * Kaepora Gaebora: "At the lake bottom there is a Water Temple used to worship the water spirits. The Zoras are guardians of the temple. Hoo hoo."
 * Some people: "If the people who came to worship from far away heard that, they'd be very disappointed...", "But I'll bet that the folks coming to worship will stay away for a while... Those people who make a living off of those coming to worship at the lake must be struggling..."
 * Unless you have another quote I don't know off, these are the only ones about worshipping and the water temple/lakebed temple (or are they talking about Lanayru? Regardless, there's no other such quote for the Lake Hylia area). None of these says that the Sea Zoras worship/pray at the temple.
 * It is far off. If those other two clearly are the Zora emblem, than this never can be "a third reference". I've been looking at the emblem for five minutes now, comparing it with medli's outfit, komali's necklace (or what was visible from it), the zora's sapphire, actually trying to make it look the same. It just doesn't, unless you desperately, really want to. Following this logic, the Triforce and the Zora emblem even look like eachother.
 * You mean sweet Zelda.com's description? The same site that doesn't know how to spell Daira and Wizzrobe? The same site that doesn't know itself when it talks about a Zola (wrong name even) and a Zora? The same site that doesn't make a difference between poes, ghinis and ghosts? The same site that has not been properly updated since maybe the Oracle games? Please tell me that is not the description you are refering to!
 * Well then we call it primitive atlantis. I don't know a better way to describe it. Does it matter, I wonder. They are not comparable to any actually existing culture, which is different for the case of the Rito who can be linked to a real-world culture. Let's take a look at the two cultures you compared the Sea Zora's with: Inca does not equal persia/rome.
 * Yes, they do live in a different dimension. I have no clue what Linebeck (or rather, his ship) was doing there. Nor do I know why Link does still have the hourglass, but not the sword. All I know is that Oshus and the spirits said: "The time for you to return to your world is near... The door to your world is about to open." They were in the world of the Ocean King, and were sent back at the end, which explains the ten minute-difference mentioned by Tetra's crew. For all I care, Linebeck entered that world earlier, or maybe he's a reference to Marin. PH is not the same dimension as TWW, or at least, it is strongly debatable.
 * Just out of pure curiosity, what kind of fish have beaks?
 * And how fast can evolution go for bigger lifeforms then? Did the theory of millions of years get replaced with one about, say, 500 years? Evolution does not go that fast.
 * Interesting. So I have to believe your theory about the zora's sapphire, but you immediately "call BS" on my theory about the Kokiri/Koroks, obviously not even reading what I wrote? I never said that Fado slides out of Makar thus he changes in him. When Makar awakens as a Sage, he becomes Fado and Link sees this happening. When Medli awakens, she sees Laruto and the two communicate on some astral level I guess, as Link obviously only sees Medli fainting. Fado and Makar become one. Medli and Laruto stay separate. Then, when they bring power to the Master Sword, Fado slides out of and back into Makar. Laruto appears next to Medli and then disappears. To say their spiritual nature is to blame does not seem like a satisfying explanation to me. As for their human forms, it was merely a suggestion. Please don't shoot me for it. Then they have been human shaped for a longer while. Big deal. I still have not seen an argument that makes the Kokiri-Korok-Zora-Rito link sound more logical. Yes, both races have/could have changed.... you know what?, I accept the argument, provided that it nature-of-the-change wise is not linked to the Rito (just a matter of wording). Something along the lines of: "The Kokiri are stated to have changed into the Koroks, proving that (etc,). As such, this adds to the theory of (etc.)."
 * Not in OOT, that I can guarantee you. Also, OOA: "Calling him a fish is an insult!" - King Zora. IfIHaveTo 13:24, 5 December 2007 (EST)


 * P.S., I went ahead and edited this small thing about the habitats. People seem to think it refers to the Gerudo, which is not true. Zuna (though that is the Gerudo Desert as well), Kokiri/Korok (think TP for example), Deku Scrubs, etc., all have at times not appeared in games featuring their habitats, making a link to Gerudo Desert a little.... odd.IfIHaveTo 03:38, 7 December 2007 (EST)


 * I had never heard that quote before. Thank you. Fine, I accept that she was not chosen because she was noble.
 * ...well, seeing as the Zora are the only ones who can reach the temple, ever...and it never says people worship on the far shore from the temple...
 * I can easily see a rectangular Zora symbol in it, but fine. If you can't see it, it's not as clear as I thought, so can't be used as evidence.
 * The TP text is in referene to Lanayru's Shrine.
 * "The Zoras are usually the protectors of Lakebed Temple, so I think they should help us..."
 * Also, the Zora emblem is all over the temple, and it is said that they built it. One would assume they actually worship at a place that they built, is decorated by them, they protect, and only they can enter.
 * Please don't tell me that you misinterpreted what King Zora was trying to say that badly. Okay, fine - Maku Tree calls it a fish, over and over.
 * Zelda.com: yes, I am. I'm unaware of Daira actually being given an English name, Wizrobe is the correct spelling (MM is the ONLY game that has called it "Wizzrobe" - its been Wizrobe in TWW, TMC,...); it's been updated at least since TWW, Poes/Ghinis/Ghosts - the games don't make much of a difference either. When have any of them appeared in the same game? Zola - actually, that was the accepted name until OoA called them "river zoras and sea zoras".
 * "Primitive Atlantis" - okay, I don't know how to stress this enough - SETTING IS NOT CULTURE! There are Jews in America - you don't have to live in Israel to be considered "Jewish". Culture is determined by how your society is set up - the most Rito have for culture besides this is that they wear clothes appropriate for mountains and high sky.
 * PH "different world: - okay, no. How about the line "The Ghost Ship will no longer terrorize your world"? It certainly was terrorizing PH's Great Sea! How about the fact that Tetra had good knowledge of "this part of the sea" - if there was a "window", how would she have gotten that knowledge? How about Linebeck never mentions needing to leave this "separate world" to get home, or Link being trapped in this world never mentioned, whereas its harped on in LA, MM, OoA, and OoS? How about Linebeck being familiar with everyone on Mercay Island, or Jolene and Joanne being native to the area (who've known Linebeck "for ages"?)
 * Isn't it much, much simpler that maybe Oshus is referring to how everything flashed before you fight Bellum? Or even the "world under the sea"? The whole point of Link seeing Linebeck is to point towards this - pulling out the Phantom Hourglass proves it wasn't a dream, so the Linebeck thing must mean something different.
 * Halfbeak, Beaked Salmon, Nomorhampus, Parrotfish - its not rare, at all.
 * Look up "punctuated equilibrium" in wikipedia. Yes, evolution is normally slow, but it speeds up a lot in instances of climactic upheaval. Guess what a global flood would qualify under? Granted, in the real-world its still a few thousand years, but again, magic speeds things up.
 * "10 minutes" - Ciela is the Spirit of Time and Courage. This is an important part of the final boss battle. Especially with her master (a god powered by an extreme amount of force gems, the "source of all magic"), she's going to have some power over time. PH has similarities to LA, but its differences are also important.
 * No, I've said over and over that it may not be as obvious as I think it is. However, just because Fado appears behind/above Makar, it is insane to assume that this means Makar is "becoming" Fado. Makar also calls Fado his ancestor, not his "self", or anything implying that he has become Fado:
 * "And my ancestors are most satisfied."
 * I can't find a video of Makar under the waterfall, so I'm not sure if you mean this as for when Makar awakens, but otherwise, Makar and Fado are presented as unique beings - Fado is strongly implied to be his ancestor, but Makar is simply not Fado.KrytenKoro 22:01, 11 December 2007 (EST)

If there is one thing I hate, it's that "backspace" puts you back a page if you haven't selected anything. I lost a lot of text in a mere second. :*( Ah well, back from scratch.


 * I agree that it seems most logical that if anyone prays at the temple, it would be the Sea Zoras, though there is no 100% certainty. I'd like to remind you that Zelda's Lullaby is needed to change the waterlevel in OOT. Zelda's Lullaby is not a Zora-related song. Also, the Zora Tunic does not seem to be "the latest invention" and might be created to allow non-Zoras to enter the temple. Also, while they may have built it, the "Sage Temples" are part of a bigger project. Any race having built such a temple doesn't necessarily had to build it for themselves.
 * I have barely played the Oracle games, so anything I say regarding them might be wrong. However, the text dumps of that game teach me the following: there are three "quote types" relating to fish. One type is about Ricky (as such ignorable), one is from King Zora, clearly identifying Jabu-Jabu as the fish you are talking about (but also stating "fish" is an insult). The third type, I assume, comes from the Maku Tree. "...An essence? Inside a fish?" and "That's weird! An essence is echoing from inside a fish.". If my assumption is correct, I have this question for you. Suppose that Nintendo had altered the quote to "...An essence? Inside a mammal?", how many people would have found that hint useful? None. Fact is, games that do not care that much about technical facts (such as hammerspace, Link not dying after being shot from a cannon) are better off calling a whale a fish rather than a mammal in any quote which is vague on purpose.
 * Please don't take this too harsh, but you really should check this wiki's articles or other sources before stating stuff about the Zelda universe that someone else just said wasn't true. Daira is the ony known, and as such official name of those creatures. The name is written in the booklet of TAOL, stating it is Daira and not Daria. Zelda.com seems to have misspelled it, but never corrected. Wizzrobe is the official name, not Wizrobe. It was misspelled in Majora's Mask and misspelled on Zelda.com. Every other game and source claims it's Wizzrobe. Ghinis/Ghosts and Poes are not the same creatures and should not be treated as such, regardless whether or not they ever appeared in the same game or not. They have a different history, different appearance, different attack pattern etc. How come the Picori and Minish do get separate articles, but these creatures don't? How come each of the Poe Sisters get their own (nearly identical) articles, rather than share one, if they are more alike than Poes and Ghinis? As for the River Zora; yes, they have not been called River Zora until Oracle of Ages, but the name Zora goes back all the way to A Link to the Past. With The Legend of Zelda's rerelease on the GBA, the name has been permanently corrected to Zora. Everything indicates that Zola was just a one-time typo. Also, I said "properly updated" and not just "updated". How come I can find info on MM nobody characters like Shiro and Professor Shikashi (that guy had a name?), but not on important TWW characters (Laruto and Fado)? And after that, things get completely hilarious (read: there's barely anything written about subjects from other games). I do not take anything Zelda.com states as true, because it proves on every single page it's untrustworthy.
 * Okay, I'm sorry I am unable to find a real world cultural comparision to the Zora culture. However, with fairytale mermaid/primitve atlantis, I am not refering to a setting. Well, not really. The thing is, any fictional aquatic culture in any game of movie had a certain atmosphere that the human mind seems to associate with a life under the waves. This atmosphere is present in the Zora culture.
 * So? A door can be seen from two rooms as well. The Ghost Ship for as far as I understand is a portal between both worlds. Therefore, it is in both worlds at the same time. How about the ten minutes versus whatever time it took Link to find and defeat Bellum? Tetra's crew can't have lost track of the ship in those ten minutes, yet the ship was doing it's own thing in PH's world. *I do not remember such a quote from Tetra nor can I find anything in the text dumps. When did she say it and what did she say exactly?* Linebeck likely didn't know he was in a different realm. Suppose the PH realm and TWW realm weren't the same, than Link didn't know he was somewhere else either. Tetra at least certainly didn't ("Our world? So what is the world that we are in now? What is this place..."). That argument goes both ways. Also, just because earlier stories "immediately" stated Link wasn't in Hyrule anymore, does that mean it is impossible for a later game to change this rule? No, any Zelda game may tell the story in the order and way it deems most fitting. Like OOT being the only game that did not immediately reveal Zelda to be a Sage, Midna's true form not being seen until the end of PH (whereas Daphnes and Ezlo could be seen roughly halfway), etc. As for Linebeck being familiar with PH's people, imagine this. Linebeck is a sailor who seems to travel a lot. It is not unlikely that he either doesn't have a home (his boat being his home) or that he did not intend on retruning home any time soon. How should he have known that he is no longer in his world? Suppose that he got in PH's world only half a year ago; that's more than enough to meet the people of Mercay and get acquainted. Suppose he met Jolene roughly at the same time (he never met Joanne, as they did not recognize when they met. If she knows about him, it's because of Jolene's letters), her quotes make sense, but should not be taken literally. "Fiend! It's been 100 years since our paths last crossed... Oh, what? You aren't Linebeck!" and "I found you, Linebeck! It's been ages since our last encounter!" are examples of the common practice to exaggerate things to make the message more clear. Don't tell me you have never said that something has been ages, while it may have only been two weeks. It at least certainly hasn't been 100 years.
 * Linebeck and the Hourglass are the weak points in the theory. However, it's even harder to argue that the two worlds are the same. Again, why did the hourglass come with Link, but not the rest of the sword? I'd like to refer to TMC as proof that the dream world affects the real world. Remember that sleeping "game"? Link went asleep in that odd machine in one of the houses of Hyrule Castle Town and dreamt about a dungeon filled with monsters. Defeating them gained him a piece of heart, which he still had when he awoke. Also, Oshus' home (his temple) is located in PH's great sea, and so are the spirits' homes and upgrade island, indicating that that indeed is their world.
 * Global flood does still not seem like a logical climatic upheavel that would change fish into birds.
 * Not becoming Fado. They "are" the same being. You could say at best that his "old Fado side" is awakening, like remembering a long forgotten memory. Also, I wouldn't know why ancestor could not refer to a former self, if only because of lack of a better word. Suppose that the Kokiri/Koroks indeed all reincarnate and that that is their form of "staying in existance as a race", the word ancestor could very well be used simply to refer to the person "before oneself". Check Wiktionary's definition of ancestor. Ancestor could very well be used in that way, especially looking at the latin roots of the word. And yes, I was refering to Makar's awakening under the waterfall. He actually physically changes into Fado then. However, this is merely a theory, much like the Zora-Rito one, and I already said I agree that the Kokiri comparision stays up, provided it isn't just summed up like the other arguments. It needs a bit more substance. IfIHaveTo 17:50, 23 December 2007 (EST)


 * They could have said "inside a whale?" Also, the fact that it lives in an underground cave, and never leaves it, puts strong doubt as to it being anything air-breathing.
 * Oshus does not live in the temple. It was built to worship him, not for him to live in. The spirits also do not live in the three temples. Phantom Hourglass - presumably, because Oshus took the pieces back to turn into a whale. You don't see the sword after Oshus takes the sand.
 * Sorry, I got the z's confused on wizzrobe. That still does not mean it is an innacuracy - they used a valid name from a valid game. The stuff about "properly updated" also doesn't make sense - I can understand Laruto and Fado possibly being left out for spoiler reasons, but why would Shiro appearing be bad?
 * The ten minutes? Ciela is the spirit of time. Quite simple. Tetra (or one of the pirate's, I think) said, near the beginning, "these are the waters protected by the Great Spirit, the Ocean King". Think about the Minish example you raised earlier - the human world is not "their world", but it is a world they protect. Ezlo goes back to the Minish World at the end, but that doesn't mean that TMC's Hyrule wasn't "real". "Our world" - Tetra clearly knew of these oceans. Especially if the Ghost Ship is the door - they are inside the Ghost Ship.
 * "Hey, Tetra! They say these seas are protected, yeah? Something about a spirit called the Ocean King. Wouldn't a spirit like that protect the ships? Unless there really is an evil Ghost Ship..."
 * Idea! Oshus says that every creature "in this world" possesses life force - yet Bellum is a life force leech - perhaps they are in Bellum's world? Would make a whole mess more sense, and get rid of the giant inconsistency. Possibly even the Sacred Realm, as that seems to be the natural home of divine creatures like fairies and spirits.
 * Linebeck is primarily a treasure-hunter, not a pirate and hardly a sailor. He would be the most likely person to know where he is at all times. And why would Oshus lie about Link and Linebeck being stuck? He never mentions any of this "our world" nonsense until they are on the Ghost Ship. Also - if Linebeck has grown acquainted with Oshus's world, if he doesn't want to return to his world....why make him go back? There was no impetus to return home, unlike in LA or even MM.
 * Finally, if the Ship is the door - why is the door only open when the ship has been pretty much erased from existence? About Joanne - I meant she knew of him. Sorry for being unclear.
 * But she certainly does say "100 years", and I can't find an idiom in the japanese that would account for that. I may need to keep looking, but this is pretty much the only indication we've got to lifespan of Hylians anyway, so why would it "certainly not be 100 years?"
 * The Hourglass is now not needed - it was created to defeat Bellum. The pure metals belong to the tribes. If Oshus didn't absorb them along with the sand, its reasonable that he returned them, and let Link keep the Hourglass to prove that it was real.
 * Simon's Simulations - well, dreams are based on reality. The owner could have given it to him. Or the fact that they are magical, and become part of yourself, apparently, instead of being held, physical items...it really seems to be more of a material spell than an actual item.
 * None of the spirits actually live in their temples - they are imprisoned in them. Oshus can't even get to the Ocean Temple without turning into a person, and for the upgrade island - it is said that they travelled to there - if they can leave their world to protect the Great Sea, they can easily leave it to become stronger.
 * Floods screw up everything, even the water - for example, you could imagine that the water would be much more filthy, which would explain Ganon's whole "there are no fish in this sea" line.
 * Except that Fado was in the temple until recently, when Ganon stole his soul. Makar has been alive for quite a while. I would expect that if Makar is the reincarnation of Fado, that they should not have been alive at the same time. I know Fado appears over him, and Makar shortly disappears, but the best explanation I can come up with is that it just looks like Fado, and for whatever reason, Makar is looking like Koroks used to. Or he turned invisible. Koroks are forest spirits, after all, while Medli is flesh and blood. Also important - Laruto is never actually seen at the awakening outside of Medli's dream - she could have overshadowed Medli like Fado did Makar, or not appeared at all. Whatever - if you want to add more substance, go ahead, if you want to remove the theory completely, go ahead. But I don't see how it's possible for Fado to actually be Makar - he could have been an ancestor, but he seems to have still been alive until recently.KrytenKoro 15:54, 22 December 2007 (EST)

Is there anything in this discussion left about the Zora-Rito theory? ;D Given your final sentence, I assume it's okay for me to make some adjustments to the text. If you don't agree with the result, feel free to edit it again. It's just that we have sorta come to an agreement on some points, and the text can be adjusted to that.
 * I'm only going to reply on some general points. I'd love to continue the discussion(s) (please say so if you want that as well), but since this page is currently 55kb and mostly off-topic, I suggest we continue on more appropriate talk pages (TLOZ:PH, Kokiki or Korok, Jabu-Jabu etc.), where the discussion can be used to improve the articles. I'll see if I can move, copy and paste the discussion parts to more appropriate places.
 * Not mentioning something that is not relevant (at that time) is not the same as lying.
 * My point regarding the Zelda.com encyclopedia was this. Up until MM, pretty much every character, even those who are pretty much nobodies, has a mentioning in the encyclopedia. But important characters (other than the main) from later games do not have a mentioning. The younger the game, the less items from such game gets an own mentioning. To me, this indicates a fading interest in the encyclopedia and keeping it up-to-date. As for the Wizzrobe/Wizrobe issue: it's part of a bigger picture. What's written there never gets changed, even if it's wrong or outdated. I have no reason to give that encyclopedia any credit.
 * I fail to understand what you mean with this question: "if the Ship is the door - why is the door only open when the ship has been pretty much erased from existence?". The door has always been open, until the very last moment in which Link, Tetra and Linebeck were brought back. Just when would it have been closed?
 * We don't know when Ganon killed Fado and Laruto. I always thought he killed them before the flood.
 * Downright saying inside a whale would've made the next objective too clear. Like I said, sometimes text is vague on purpose. Also, Jabu-Jabu does not spend all of his time inside a cave, as shown in OOT. Otherwise, I'm also not assuming that every single being in the Zelda series truly is at only one place during the time Link's quests take, even though they are always there when you visit. Same might be for Jabu-Jabu.
 * Did anyone ask Link if he wanted to return to his childhood? IfIHaveTo 17:50, 23 December 2007 (EST)

Should this be mentioned?
Well I noticed something. Um the Ritos need a scale to gain wings and fly and well the Zoras have a scale to dive deeper, but I'm not sure if it should be mentioned because I don't remember seeing anywhere in OoT where it mentions the Zoras using it to dive deeper.--Green

Oh yeah I bet this has been mentioned before but the wings on the Ritos look very similar to the fins on the Zoras. Maybe they don't look exactly the same but it's a little strange that the wings of a Rito are located at the same place where the fins of a Zora's are located at.--Green 03:09, 25 November 2007 (EST)


 * How is that awkward? Doesn't every living thing with the main body-head-legs/tail-arms/wings the same setup? Call me ONE bird who has its wings on its head, or one fish who doesn't have fins where non-fish have their arms/legs/wings. Even more so, these two creatures are human-based qua design, so they have those bodyparts where human anatomy would expect them to be. It's not awkward at all.IfIHaveTo 14:46, 26 November 2007 (EST)
 * ...except that you would expect the Rito to have wings like a bat, not like this. I'll show you one bird that has its wings on its elbows, and this is apparently it. And if compared to Zora Link, it is much more striking.KrytenKoro 11:41, 3 December 2007 (EST)


 * Why would it have batlike wings? It's a bird. Really, it's nothing of importance. Most Zora have (or had?) their fins on the lower part of their arms, not on the higher part. And this includes Zora Link.IfIHaveTo 13:24, 5 December 2007 (EST)


 * Well if you look at birds their wings are actually their arms much like a bat's wings are actually its arms. There isn't any known bird on earth that has wings growing out of its arms.  If Nintendo wanted to depict the Rito to be more bird-like their wings should probably more like the Watarara.  It looks as if the Nintendo purposely design the wings that way and that the resemblance wasn't on accident.--Green 22:14, 8 December 2007 (EST)