User talk:Magnus orion@legacy41958278

I read your time line and i totally agree with you on it man. Oh and props on beating all the games and good luck on AOL ~ Lord Harken

Thanks! :D. I just got minish cap yesterday so I've got to change it now, though:P. AoL is hard.--Magnus orion 19:36, 4 April 2008 (EDT)

Now that I think on it, I can't see any reason why FS and FSA couldn't be in the child line, the way the games are, it is entirely possible that they could be in either line. The Minish Cap would make a lot of sense where you have it. Since Vaati absorbs most of the Light Force, the knowledge of its existence is lost with time. That is a reasonable assumption. Perhaps, though you could explain exactly why you think that ALTTP, OoA/OoS, LA, LoZ, & AoL belong in the child line? By the way I think that you the order between those is right though. The Oracles definitly go between ALTTP and LA, no doubts there. All your ordering is great, but I don't understand why you have the games in those timelines. Could you explain?--Matt 03:55, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

I just played ALTTP last week and part of FSA just ten minutes ago. After going through the Eastern Temple I got a strong feeling of déjà vu. The terrain, layout, and key locations in FSA are very close to that in ALTTP. That makes the placement for FSA just before ALTTP highly likely. It may be that ALTTP takes place only a few centuries after FSA. I am not sure if Ganon excaped from whatever realm he was sealed in prior to FSA and got into the Sacred Realm (again) after FSA, this time getting the whole triforce but unable to excape. This certainly explains why Ganon has the cool trident in all of the proceding 2D games. This is just speculation. Any thoughts?--Matt 20:39, 19 April 2008 (UTC)


 * To answer both your questions, I still believe that Wind Waker goes right after OoT, as I see no evidence that it doesn't. It may be possible that this is not the case, but I just can't believe that the hero of time is assumed to be the same person everytime a boy named link shows up. As for the placement of FSA, which I never actullay played, I know that ganondorf apparently gets a trident in this game, and he turns into Pig Demon Ganon (my name for the blue ganon form), whose design is noticibly different than other ganon forms, but still remains consistent as more games in that timeline come out. ie. Ganon's form changed of OoT, but for FSA and the oracle games, which came out after OoT, the design remains the same as the aLttP. This is another reason I don't believe that the other arc is on the adult end, as TWW almost must be on that side and I don't believe that the Pig Demon could revert back to ganondorf. Also my timeline assumes that ganondorf/ganon can only be killed if he doesn't have the triforce with him (after events at the end of TWW), or is killed by silver arrows (not light arrows). It should be noted that since I don't see a reason why ganondorf loses the triforce in TP, I assume he doesn't and comes back to life some time after the master sword is removed (as it was returned to the pedastal) in time for his appearance in FSA. Since I never played FSA, from what I read ganon is not sealed at hte beginng of FSA, but your comment above seems to contradict that. Was he sealed at the begining of FSA, because if he was, than I have a theory which I think makes TP make more sense.--Magnus orion 21:18, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Very well, but there is still the matter of the entire triforce being in Sacred Realm in ALTTP. Sure I always thought that the triforce of power stayed with Ganondorf in TP. Although, the other two pieces just might have been in Link and Zelda the entire time. The triforce is only reunited when the one who split it in the first place, Ganon, is defeated. I fairly confindent that the there are only two possiblities for a timeline. Yours and mine. No others make sense. I can't see there being anything that will definitivly say which one is right. It all hinges on the Hero of Time story and whether people mixed up the others or not. Did the general people of Hyrule come to know the full extent of Link's time travel in OoT, or did a hero in green clothes appear seemingly whenever hyrule was in trouble and thought the the title Hero of Time meant that these heroes where the same one traveling in time -which of course was not true, butthey may have thought it. Think of the legends in the real world. They become much more elaborate and exaggerated with time. Is it not possible for the people to believe they are protected by the Hero of Time?--Matt 21:43, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

On Ganon escaping before FSA, I ment anytime before FSA, be it TP or whatever.--Matt 21:50, 19 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes I agree. Both yours and mine are the only ones I know to be possible, and it may be possible for the people to beielve they have always been protected by the Hero. The way I see it, there are now three problem games that make the timeline difficult, particularly because of the specifics of the events taking place in them. These would be aLttP, with its very specific backstory that doesn't quite fit any game exactly, AoL, with its confusing backstory that can only be remedied by putting it after aLttP, which negates its supposed explanation for why all the princesses are named Zelda, and finally, our recent friend TP, with its apparently symbolic or metaphorical ending (no one knows what happened. We can only speculate. :S)

Also, just as a side note: The worst timeline I have come across is what some have dubbed the youtube timeline, since a video was made of it by gametrailers or somebody and became a popular timeline on youtube. Anyway, the youtube timeline has a little bit of both yours and mine, has a split timeline, and decides to use the oracle games to reconnect the timeline... How is that supposed to work?!?! People suddenly have memories from two lifetimes?!?!? Oh well, there are a lot of silly people out there are the internet. I think your timeline is interesting in that it puts several games before wind waker (if I understand it correctly). My only question is that in AoL, ganon is clearly stated to be dead, but you have him back alive as ganondorf in The WindWaker to be killed again. Could you explain?--Magnus orion 22:06, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Well, whenever you lose your last life in AoL, Ganon returns, game over. It is only a matter of time before he is revived. I see no evidence that Ganon loses the triforce of power after LoZ. Somehow he comes back. His pig form body is destroyed of course, perhaps he fasions a new body, maybe from a stolen one, in the likeness of his beloved original. As long as he has the triforce of power, he always seems to find some way back.--Matt 22:42, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

My timeline, as it stands, is on my userpage.--Matt 22:44, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, that youtube timeline does sound rather silly.--Matt 22:46, 19 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Alright, but in the end of the first game, which goes before LoZ, when you kill ganon, a pile of red dust lies on the ground with a glowing triangle on top, the triforce of power. Upon picking it up link walks into the next room to find zelda. Zelda and link hold the two triforce peices over their heads, (power and wisdom) and the game ends. In AoL, you retrieve the triforce of courage and the combined power of the triforces are used to awaken the sleeping zelda. So Ganondorf no longer possessed the triforce at that point. Also, if you look at my timeline and assume he can only be killed with silver arrows, he is never alive where he shouldn't be (brought back to life in the oracle games)--Magnus orion 22:49, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Two things to keep in mind. One LoZ and AoL are old games. When they were made the creators had no idea it would grow into what it is today. There is no telling how many times the changed their minds on their timeline. Two, silver arrows are said to be able to kill Ganon without fail. But, they are used in two games. In both Ganon dies and loses the triforce. The conditions in ALTTP and LoZ concerning his death are nearly identical. Yet ganon is revived and takes back the triforce of power prior to LoZ. By that same reasoning, it is entirely possible for Ganon to come back again.--Matt 22:59, 19 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Fair enough. Basically, you're saying that either an unadressed catastrophe happens and Ganon is revived again. So, I have a gut feeling that there should be a sequel to TP to explain the ending, and your timeline needs a Zelda III game. Both of our timelines are missing a game then. I really do like the idea of having some of the games before TWW, and am sick of people saying that the games go after and that the flood just goes away or something.

PS: by 'needs' I mean as a requirement to be accepted by absolutly everyone, not just yourself. For some people, simply stating there is a backstory isn't good enough.--Magnus orion 23:06, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Remember, in fantasy (as well as science fiction) no stays dead for long. Nintendo would always love to have another game with Ganon in it. It's what they do.--Matt 23:11, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Isn't there a new Wii Zelda game in the works? I'm sure heard about it somewhere. I have no idea on the plot though. Even if it wasn't announced, you can bet that they are working on one. They always seem to be working on one, ever since OoT came out.--Matt 23:16, 19 April 2008 (UTC)


 * i don't know. About your fatansy/sci fi comment, that isn't always true, but for Zelda it is. I would also like to ask you something else, concerning both our timelines and pretty much everyone elses, too! Its about Agahnim, who is stated to be an alter-ego of Ganon, in other words he is actually ganon. But how can ganon be in the light world and dark world at the same time, and could it be that this might be able to be addressed in someone's timeline in events from previous games?--Magnus orion 23:20, 19 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I think the phrase is a statement of a common occurence/plot element, not fantasy/scifi law.

When you beat Agahnim in ALTTP, Ganon comes out of his body. Ganon is already in the Dark World at the time. This means that Ganon was controling Agahnim somehow. It may be like Zant. Ganon promises ultimate power, says their wishes are now his wishes, but Ganon still takes advantange. So Ganon never possessed Agahnim until after he went to the Dark World. The portal at Hyrule Castle was open to the Dark World, yet still didn't permit a return trip. Ganon had no way out of the Dark World.--Matt 23:29, 19 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Well I looked around on the internet a little, and it appears there may be another zelda game in development afterall (HOORAY!). As for Agahnim, what you said is possible, but Ganon called him his "alter-ego", which doesn't really sound like control to me. I have no ideas on the subject. Another thing that has been bugging me is the forms Nightmare from LA takes. Every form he takes except his first and last appear to be from aLttP, and the last could be thought of as his true form, and may have been inspiration for Vaati (though I don't like this idea). But its first form does not seem to be a aLttP boss or mini-boss like the others. It may be that there is no reason at all, but... I'd like to hear your take on it.--Magnus orion 23:47, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps Agahnim truely did die after drawing Link into the dark world. The Ganon used that to his advantage and used Agahnim's identity. The first nightmare form is likely just a zol, you know those blob things in ALTTP and LA. Dethl is most likely made just for LA to basicly represent/lead the nightmares, notice how the music gets more dramatic and desperate when he shows up. I don't like it either but I'm sorry to say that it is very likely that Dethl inspired Vaati. Most likely the creators decided that, retroactively, Dethl was the nightmare form of Vaati. The legends of Vaati would still be around in the ALTTP era so that Link would have heard about him. --Matt 00:07, 20 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Alright. thanks for your help on putting Agahnim in a different, more sensical light (but it is still a little foggy for a Zelda game, where things are usually more heavily implied if not stated outright). You seem to share the same view as me on Nightmare.--Magnus orion 00:18, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

The game with the least consistancy is TMC, in the Light Force, which you stated above, the piccori, and the kinstones. These all were a real big deal in minish cap, but in the other games they are never even mentioned. What do you think happened? Was it that the time between TMC and OoT was so great that all those legends actually died out? And could the Piccori have become the Kokiri, who share a few similar elements?--Magnus orion 00:22, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm guessing that since Vaati caused so much trouble, that the Minish closed the portal permanantly. Since Vaati absorbed a majority of the light force, the knowledge of that was lost as well. I get the impression that OoT takes place a long time after TMC. Perhaps two thousand or so years.--Matt 02:10, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

I've been thinking, Doesn't Lake Hylia in TP look like it has the same position relative to the Master Sword as Hyrule/Ganon's Castle in OoT? Could that mean that the big crater that was Hyrule Castle became the new Lake Hylia. It looks like it but I thought that TP occurs because Link stops Ganondorf's take over of Hyrule. And OoT ends in Hyrule Castle. Well such is a typical Zelda paradox.--Matt 00:32, 20 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I wouldn't focus on geography if I were you... The geography in zelda is no where near consistant. There are a few places that have a tendency to show up, but often in different places.--Magnus orion 01:49, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

That's a headache I'd prefer to avoid. But the Master Sword's location, relative to Death Mountain, seems to be constant in all relevent games. The Lake Hylia in TP may just be some vague inside humor on the developer's part. --Matt 02:10, 20 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Maybe, but it should also be noted that the lake hylia in TP is significantly larger than the crater. They are however, in the same location relatively, I agree. However, TP is trying to show a link between OoT and aLttP, as it shows the Temple of Time falling apart, showing that it would eventually just become part of the rest of the lost woods/sacred grove. The locations of the places are not really important, but objects like the master sword and its location are. --Magnus orion 02:36, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, the Lake is much bigger than the crater. But the lake has a deep part that is comparable in size to the crater. The rest of the lake is fairly shallow in comparision, like it was carved by the water recently, geologicly speaking. But since it's most likely developer humor, its location is not as important as the Master Sword's.--Matt 02:59, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Theory Holes
At this point I would be perfectly happy if either of our theories where correct. They are both good and neither one should be abandoned yet. These theories deserve to be analyzed further. There are holes in the theories. We should try to close them.

I believe that we have already identified the hole in my theory and have already discussed solutions. In yours I can find one rather big one. Let's assume your theory for the discussion of this hole. At the end the Ocarina of Time, in the Adult line, the Triforce of Courage is split into eight pieces when Link goes back to his time. But in the Child line Link definitely still has the Triforce of Courage.

A possible solution is this: Since the road between the times is sealed forever, the Link's loss of the Triforce in one line cannot affect the other line. This is a rather weak solution though. --Matt 02:30, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, either theory could be correct, or neither, especially since we know that there is a new game on the way! I don't see what you mean, as your 'weak solution' is the one I used. The triforce of courage shattered to bits when Link went back in time, thus forcing TWW's retrieval quest. The reason for this is that there can only be one triforce of courage, and it is a requirement for the triforce to exist in both timeines. So, Link kept the triforce. Another possible solution (which just came to me and makes more sense, especially now that I am writing this and realise how little sense the last actually makes) is that Link simply lost the triforce upon traveling back in time. He does not keep it. I've always had a problem with all the Link and Zelda characters being related (in-breeding... O_O). Link may be a common name and Zelda may be a royal name or another common name, and all the heros can share similar traits (important to note here is that Link's and Zelda's hair and eye color change during the different games). But the hero is a destined hero and when Ganondorf obtained the triforce of power (I believe he managed to get into the sacred realm while they were trying to capture him) the triforce went to their respective bearers, ready or not. If the bearer died, they would go to another person. Eventually it came upon the Zelda and Link of TP. Its a bit farfetched, I know, but that is how we theorists need to fill in plot holes, right? Then hope and pray that the next games prove us right--Magnus orion 21:23, 21 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I think it's safe to assume that the Zeldas are all related. The relationships between the Links is less clear. The Link in TWW obviously has no relation at all to any of the others. The Link in TP could be a decendent of the OoT Link, there is nothing to eliminate that possibility. From the in-game text, it is plausible that the ALTTP is a decendent of the FS/FSA Link and maybe (on your timeline) of the OoT Link. The LA Link might not have returned Hyrule and instead landed elsewhere. That would explain why the LoZ comes from another land. I am very certain that no Link is related to any Zelda.  In these decendents the Triforce would not be past from decendent to decendent, but rather comes to the one chosen by destiny. If no blood decendent is alive, then the a new hero is chosen by destiny.  Therefore many of the Links could be related but do not have to be so. Here is another solution to the theory hole. The Triforce always exists and makes sure it stays that way. When OoT Zelda sends OoT Link back to his time, and in effect sealing the door between the timelines, the Triforce of Courage made sure it still existed in both lines. Since the timelines are now seperate, there is only one Triforce of Courage in each line, but they are not copies.(that may seem weird but I'll explain) The Triforce in the adult line was the one that Link unknowingly obtained in the main storyline of the game. That Triforce is lost and split up when Link goes back to his time (a time when he still had the Triforce). At the point that he arrives back in time the timelines are split. Therefore the fate of the Triforce of Courage in the child line has no effect on the one in the adult line and vice versa. There you go, theory hole filled. It took me some time to come up with this solution.--Matt 22:39, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Featured article vote
Hey. Sorry, but I had to remove your vote for Gerudo for Featured Article status; turns out you already voted this month (for Pedestal of Time). Once May 1st rolls around, though, get to votin'! :P --Ando (T) 00:25, 21 April 2008 (UTC)


 * ??? I didn't vote for Gerudo. You did remove my vote for Triforce though, did you just mistype?. Yeah, I didn't know if I had voted already or not (a month is a long time XD). I'll be more careful next time.--Magnus orion 00:33, 21 April 2008 (UTC)


 * blaaahahmdkjon yeah I meant Triforce. :P Sorry 'bout that. But yes! If you ever forget whether or not you've voted, it's as simple as checking the recent additions to the voting archive. --Ando (T) 00:41, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Timeline Talk
I archived our little timeline talk and put the link on my talk page. If you want to delete the part of our talk here to save some space go right ahead.--Matt 03:20, 5 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm alright for now, if it starts to really fill up, I will do.--Magnus orion 23:01, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Votins
Hey, I've added a new section to the SCII name poll which you might want to take a look at, since based on your vote it sounds like you'd want to move yours. 15:29, 26 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks! Yep, I agree with you, ando XD  --Magnus orion 01:17, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

What about the map?
Wouldn't LOZ and AOL fit better after WW since Ganon never got the Trident of Power on that timeline and since Hyrule is separated by water in WW...and In LOZ (since its before AOL) and AOL Hyrule is almost the same except on a smaller scale.

Also The way you had to find the 8 peices of triforce in LOZ is only redone in WW...I think?--Remo 15:27, 11 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I believe that Ganon becomes a pig demon after he gets the Trident. He loses it after going mad when he was ressurected in the oracle games. As for maps, the Legend takes place over a long period of time. Changes in geography are expected. Island seperation is much more predominant and noticeable in WW and PH as opposed to AoL. And of course, in WW, Hyrule lies at the bottom of the ocean. So how did the legend of AoL occur in the timeline with AoL and LoZ coming after WW? There is no way it could happen because the Triforce is gone. Ganon is dead, he can't take over like in LoZ without being brought back to life.

In LoZ you gather the Triforce of wisdom Zelda broke when she was captured. In WW its the remnants left when OOT Link went back in time, since the Triforce lacked a host, it left and broke.--Magnus orion 01:26, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

No I don't think you get what I am saying.

At the end of WW The Deku tree is trying to restore the land so maybe thats why the islands in AOL are closer...also If you look at my page the entire adult timeline (so far) shouldn't have a Ganon who possess the Trident of Power.

Also Ganon does become a demon when he gets the trident but he never gets it in the adult timeline...according to the timeline i made anyway. Also I dont think right away u can say that because the triforce of courage didnt have a host it broke into 8 peices....or did the game say that?....but what I really meant was that it would make more sense for those games to happen on the same timeline if they both use that plot of the triforce being broken apart.

I kinda got confused cuz u wrote so much lol but still maybe itll make more sense if u read my page?--Remo 20:29, 28 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I try to have the triforce pieces follow a logical progression from game to game. I try to get that with everything, save geography.
 * Your proof is that since you get broken triforce of wisdom in LoZ and broken triforce of courage in WW they are in the same timeline. Furthermore, you put games with the triforce in them after WW. But in WW the triforce's power is used. The King wishes for hope. The only hope for hyrule/islands (given history) is the disapearance of the triforce, so that no one will have a war over it again. It disappears from the timeline in mine after that (ending with PH).
 * Another problem with your timeline is that in WW ganondorf is turned to stone. How did he come back?
 * Finally, the King's wish included the destruction of Hyrule. The deku tree may be doomed to fail because of this. The triforce's power certainly supersedes the tree's. But not only that, to, more or less, cement the destruction of Hyrule kingdom in WW, Zelda leaves. The last member of the hyrulean royal family leaves the kingdom, in search of a new land (for further games. But the king tells them. That land will not be hyrule. He is telling them to let go of hyrule's past mistakes and look toward the future. In order to respect the king's wishes (he died with his kingdom, afterall) I would doubt Tetra to be so heartless as to go directly against the last wishes of the King. So, only a few people still live who even know about hyrule, and the last member of the royal line is gone, and you want me to expect them to reform randomly? I think its a bit of a stretch.
 * Your comments about the oracle games troubles me. I know the ending of the linked games, and if played in one order, the games make more sense, (sorta) but they make sense the other way as well. In order. But they cannot link timelines. That is wishful thinking. The sheer number of timeparadoxes is astronomical. Imagine if the timeline reunified and you're average joe #7. Well, lets say average joe #7 was in both timelines (they are parrallel, afterall). Suddenly the timelines rejoin together. Now there is a problem. What is it? TWO average joe #7s. Does average joe #7 go mad for remembering two different lives? is he suddenly two different people in the same body? What about average joe #8. Will everyone just go crazy? That's to say nothing of geographic catastrophes that would result from the two land masses overlapping.
 * Interestingly, however, despite the major differences in our timeline ideologies, I find it interesting to note that we both came to the same conclusion about the picorri. I like picorri better, because of its similarity to Kokiri, demonstrating the point.--Magnus orion 02:59, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Kay lets get this show on the road then...I never said that the broken pieces was my proof..merely that I realized the similarities..and when was it ever shown that the Triforce disappeared..The king wished on it....but that doesn't mean it disappeared, it could return to the golden realm. And he most likely meant with his wish that the gods reunite the lands which would make sense for LOZ and AOL to have islands closer together. also in the end he says that he has scattered the seeds of the future...so the triforce of wisdom came to my mind right away. And naming the new land Hyrule...well that doesn't seem disrespectful of his wishes ...its only the name after all.

Ganondorf turning to stone..... u actually got a point there..never thought about it which is weird I always use Ganon as my staple to connect the stories..since hes easier to use than the triforce...the only thing I can think of on the spot is that...he was revived (like Oracle games)/ given the trident/a new ganon/ or a mixture of any of those...since Ganon's history in LOZ isnt really gone into much...he just appears really..but im not gonna say for sure those are my answers, im just putting it out there till I see wats better.

And what I meant for the Oracle games isnt that the timelines converge..that cant happen...well..not easily anyway..in fact thats the point I always try to stay away from. I honestly cant understand peoples need for the two timelines to converge, its seems kinda pointless to me..two timelines were made and thats that...

in fact if the two zelda timelines were to converge..one would have to overtake the other..but maybe have bits of the other in it still...they cant just snap together at opposite ends of the timestream they have to completely become one again....unless...and im saying this as a really skeptical UNLESS...

The timeline starts normal....then splits, but somehow along the streams...the two times become similar...Which is where I thought up the Oracle idea... What if the adult and child timeline ends up having the exact same things going on near the end of the timeline...same people and creatures BUT...different islands and things like gorons are only exclusive to one timeline...I know its weird but follow me.....

Both timelines have to have a triforce for this to work...and both timelines have a link (the character from the oracle games)at the end of the streams...both these links share the same history...and thus when he is catapulted to the other timeline ..nothing changes for him...his family are still there...still a hyrule and zelda...but ..hes just in the other dimension..as with the other link...but remember the only way this could happen is if somehow the two timelines have been restored before the oracle games period, in a sense that they have no more hazards and can go on the path they were meant to..so they become the same...so the timelines are still split...just two links..switching places..

man...that is confusing..but the only reason I made that up was in case they do happen on two separate timelines..if not then I was right from the beginning and they just go one after the other.....also if they do happen on different timelines...how does one ganon have the trident..according to my timeline theory only child timeline ganon should have a trident. Hope you got all that...ill draw an illustration though and put it up later in my page.

Also what are your thoughts on this...I beleive that the King of Red Lions is a Gerudo...more on that later :P--Remo 06:24, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Where?
in this discussion

http://www.zeldawiki.org/Talk:Master_Sword

you said that the master sword and magical sword appear in the same game...unless I misunderstood you and you were saying that someone said it and you thought that was silly?...can you tell me what you meant cuz if u meant the former I would like to know what game they both appeared in. --Remo 21:13, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

I just realized u commented...sorry..but....where was that quote from..and isnt that two different games?--Remo 05:42, 23 August 2008 (UTC)