Talk:Dungeons in The Legend of Zelda

Names
Uh... why are these all called labyrinths? Is this some fan fabrication? Where's the source for that? All I could find in the official guides was the names, Level 1: Eagle, Level 2: Moon, Level 3: Manji, etc. No "labyrinth" name tagged onto it. I suggest we move ALL of the pages listed here to something more simple and less fan-based like "Eagle Dungeon" or "Eagle (Dungeon)", or something like that. 06:21, September 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * After a google search, the "Labyrinth" subtitle seems to be used in walkthroughs and similar fan articles. So the name may be conjectural, but at least is well-known. Also, calling them "X Dungeon" each helps little, since the levels aren't named in-game anyway (only numbered), and the manual only names them through the shapes. Worst case scenario, we would be forced to name the dungeons as simply "Eagle", "Moon", "Manji", etc., which would lead to the messy task of creating disambiguation pages (we already have, for example, an article about a Moon). Finally, if a renaming is inevitable, then this article is going to suffer a heavy removal of information. -- 11:27, 22 September 2010 (EDT)

Second Quest and naming
Sorry to bring this up again, but I agree with Matt on this one. In fact, in the original game, Death Mountain is only used to refer to the dungeon under Spectacle Rock, rather than the mountain itself (even Hyrule Historia keeps this naming pattern, not referring to the mountains as Death Mountain, just the dungeon). Death Mountain itself, according to Zelda II, is further north. However, aside from that issue, which is more vague, I want to really bring up the point that the Second Quest dungeons do not have names, nor do they correspond to the ones in the First Quest. The original dungeons are named after their shape, Eagle, Moon, etc., but the ones in the Second Quest simply do not have names, and are instead known as Level 1, Level 2, etc. Therefore I have two proposals here. While I can live with the labyrinth name for the others, its the Second Quest ones that bug me the most right now. Any thoughts? Fizzle 16:50, 31 January 2012 (EST)
 * Name the original dungeons under their original names, Eagle Labyrinth to Eagle, Moon Labyrinth to Moon (Dungeon), Manji Labyrinth to Manji (as there is no contradiction) and so on and simply leave a prompt at the top of the pages like the Moon page linking to the dungeons (like with the Thief page) or simply create disambiguation pages where necessary. In most cases actually there aren't any real contraditions, Moon is the only one that stands out. Many of the other pages pertain to Tingle games or other information that can be moved to seperate pages if necessary, or disambiguation pages that already exist.
 * Name the Second Quest dungeons as Level 1 (Second Quest), Level 2 (Second Quest), etc. They have virtually no relation to the original dungeons, almost all of them are in entirely different locations, all have new layouts and enemies and bosses and treasures, and it certainly makes no sense to name them after shapes when they instead are either in the shape of letters, spirals or Ganon himself.


 * If we were to split those pages we should probably call them, for example, Level 1 (First Quest) & Level 1 (Second Quest) instead of Eagle & Level 2 (Second Quest) for consistency. However, I'm sure some would rather see them stay on the same page, and stick to renaming them only (Level 1, Level 2, etc.). Although accuracy is certainly a priority, we also have to worry about what's best for the readers: keeping information as easily accessible as possible. And so this second part of your proposal kind of turns this into another classic splittist/mergist debate. Personally I have no problem with splitting them as it falls under this concept (the Exp templates are quite overused in these dungeons' infoboxes), but some others might not share this point of view.


 * I think mostly everyone can agree that these pages at least need to be moved, though. Perhaps we should start with that. 17:55, 31 January 2012 (EST)
 * I'm not sure what the logic would be of moving them all to Level 1, since the First Quest dungeons have their own names. Also, it would be confusing since, arguably, all games have a First Quest, and other Zelda games have a Level 1 dungeon, sometimes with no actual name. If we really must move to Level 1, Level 1 (The Legend of Zelda) would suffice, because, for example, Inishie no Sekiban has nameless level dungeons so if they got pages at some point, most of them would be under Level 2 (Inishie no Sekiban), etc. But in my opinion, there's no need to cut out their names, as they do indeed have names. Its just at the moment, if I put in Eagle into the search box, I get a Tingle character I did not expect to run into. Heck, if I put in Eagle Dungeon I still don't get this page. I don't even get a disambiguation page, which would show me what I wanted to see. Nothing wrong with disambiguation pages.
 * However yes, the Second Quest dungeons should be split, this is what I'm arguing for mainly. Virtually all of them have literally no connection to the originals, hence the abuse of Exp templates. Fizzle 14:23, 1 February 2012 (EST)

Actually, they are named (symbol+labyrinth) like that because of the name format given in the manual of the game for the "Eagle Labyrinth" ->. Therefore, it seems for me logical that all "Level 1" in both quests became "Eagle Labyrinth" even if the layout is not an eagle, and that for all dungeons. Otherwise, with separate or disambiguation pages, we can go into something quite confusing, just my opinion. Level 1 or something talk to no one. Even in France, the dungeons are called like that, "Labyrinthe Aigle" or "Palais de l'Aigle" for the Level 1 for example. Itachou 18:03, 31 January 2012 (EST)
 * While its true that the title of that section refers to it as the Eagle labyrinth, it does not capitalise labyrinth. Labyrinth is just the word used for "dungeon" in the original manual. The actual text of that section backs me up, as it refers to the dungeon as just Eagle. Plus there is a whole section earlier in the manual that you are conveniently ignoring that does the same. Hyrule Historia also refers to them JUST by their symbolic names. Adding dungeon or labyrinth is akin to saying "Tail Cave Dungeon" or "Forest Temple Labyrinth". Its redundant, in my eyes, and its not part of their official names, which is why I suggest at least having it in brackets (as in Eagle (Dungeon)) at the very least. Fizzle 14:23, 1 February 2012 (EST)


 * Well, if that's what the manual and HH calls them...then...we can't argue with that! :P For now I think we should definitely move them without the whole labyrinth business. As for splitting the second quest ones, I'll have to get back to you on that, since I'm not entirely sure I agree. -- Dany36 14:43, 1 February 2012 (EST)

I haven't read the entire manual and I don't know it perfectly, it is not very nice of you to tell me that "you are conveniently ignoring", we are here to discuss =).

After checked you're right, Hyrule Historia clearly called them "Eagle, Moon, Swastika -probably a mistake for it, look perfectly a Manji-, Snake, Lizard, Dragon, Demon, and Lion" ->. Therefore yes, their names for consistency with the manual and Hyrule Historia should be I think, for both the first and second quests (since the Hyrule Historia makes no difference with no special naming for the second quest):


 * "Eagle (Dungeon)"
 * "Moon (The Legend of Zelda)" since the Moon is already an antagonist and a dungeon in Majora's Mask
 * "Manji (Dungeon)"
 * "Snake (Dungeon)"
 * "Lizard (Dungeon)"
 * "Dragon (Dungeon)"
 * "Demon (Dungeon)"
 * "Lion (Dungeon)"
 * "Ganon's Dungeon" or "Ganon's Tower" or well, "Skull Head (Dungeon)"

Thoughts? Itachou 16:12, 1 February 2012 (EST)
 * I do apologise then, I guess I flashbacked to timeline debates when people would quote some stuff and ignore other things. Dark, dark times... anyway, I read another translation that called Manji "Whirlwind". I need to do some research into the actual Japanese name, I always assumed it was just Manji. Not important though. However; I don't think the Moon is a dungeon in Majora's Mask. Let me check... yes, actually, the Moon itself is not a dungeon, but the four dungeons you can get to from there are called Deku Dungeon, Goron Dungeon, Zora Dungeon, and Link Dungeon. This is according to the official guide (I have a scan I found somewhere). I would call the Moon itself just another location. So Moon (Dungeon) would work fine.
 * As for the final dungeon, it is called simply "Death Mountain" even though the symbol is a skull, so Death Mountain (Dungeon) would suffice, I'd think. As noted before, I'm not sure if the mountains themselves were called Death Mountain in TLoZ; just the dungeon was.
 * Looking into the Eagle page, I'm confused, as the second Tingle game wasn't translated into English... so why does the character have an English name and a completely different Japanese name? What's going on there? Anyway, there's no other page for Manji, so we don't even need to specify (Dungeon) after that one.
 * As for the Second Quest, Hyrule Historia makes no mention of it because its not "canon", but that doesn't mean the dungeons are the same. They are not. I have said this a number of times now, but I want to make it very clear; there are virtually NO similarities between any of the first quest dungeons and the second ones. Heck, where there ARE similarities, the dungeons are out of order. For example, Level 2 on the First Quest is much more similar to Level 3 on the Second Quest, and visa-versa. It makes no sense to give them the same names when they are arranged entirely differently and, with the exception of the very first one, in entirely different locations on the map. Fizzle 11:34, 2 February 2012 (EST)

No problem ;). Yes I checked and the Nintendo guide named them "Moon Dungeons". If I can pick up on that, I think the moon dungeons together need its own page "Moon Dungeons", but it is another case.

For the last dungeon, since it is not named in Hyrule Historia with only "Seized in the depths of a dungeon prior to the unfolding of the life or death struggle against Ganon", I can't say with absolute certainty. Just named it "Death Mountain" based on the lore of Zelda seems strange to me, especially when a concept art showing the Death Mountain in the first LoZ exist. Something related to Ganon might be better. It is sometimes called "Skull" related to the previous naming format.

Anyway, we're agree for the first quest dungeons, remains the second quests. Well, we can call them relative to their letters - A (Dungeon), Z (Dungeon) etc., I see no better solution. Named for example the 1st dungeon "Eagle" and "Level 1 (second quests)" would be quite inconsistent. Itachou 13:00, 2 February 2012 (EST)


 * Except some of the last few levels aren't letter-shaped, so the A (Dungeon) thing wouldn't work. :c --Dany36 14:02, 2 February 2012 (EST)
 * Yeah, Level 7 and Level 8 are just shapes. It won't be THAT inconsistent, as other games also have nameless dungeons, like BS The Legend of Zelda: Inishie no Sekiban, so that will have to have Level 2 (Inishie no Sekiban) for its second dungeon (although that page doesn't exist yet), for example.
 * As for Death Mountain, the manual itself refers to it as Death Mountain, as in the dungeon, as does the official guide. The manual has a listing of all the dungeons on page 34, see here . The official guide for the game also refered to it as Level 9: Death Mountain. Death Mountain is definitely the name of the dungeon. It may ALSO be the name of the mountain itself in TLoZ, its pretty vague because a lot of places it refers to Death Mountain as a singular location, while it refers to the mountains as plural elsewhere, but its definitely the name of the dungeon first and foremost. The idea is that the final dungeon IS Death Mountain, at least the depths of it. Fizzle 17:41, 2 February 2012 (EST)
 * I just checked, and the Japanese manual for the game also lists the dungeon names, and Level 9 is also listed as デスマウンテン (Death Mountain). Manji is also just called Manji, if anyone is curious, same in Hyrule Historia. Not sure how anyone translated it as "swastika" or "whirlwind". Makes me worry for the accuracy of all these Hyrule Historia translations, I must say. Fizzle 17:55, 2 February 2012 (EST)


 * If people are fine with renaming them then, I'll do that but keep the Second Quest dungeons where they are for the moment, at least. I really do think they need to be split, however, but one thing at a time. 06:52, 4 February 2012 (EST)


 * If they are renamed thus, I suggest "Death Mountain (The Legend of Zelda)" rather than "Death Mountain (Dungeon)", because Death Mountain is also the name of a stage (essentially a dungeon) in Four Swords. --Osteoderm Jacket 20:42, 18 February 2012 (EST)
 * Aren't Four Sword stages listed as stages rather than dungeons? While all the stages are dungeon-like, given that the whole game has no "overworld" stages it seems a little redundant to call anything a dungeon in the game, aside from Vaati's Palace as that location appears in TMC as an actual dungeon. Death Mountain, on the other hand, appears as overworld and normal caves in most games and as a dungeon (as well as overworld? Its unclear) in the original game. I would assume the Four Sword version would come under Death Mountain (Stage) if necessary. I don't know, I'll have to look at the Four Sword pages, I hadn't really thought about it, thanks for bringing it to attention though, I'll definitely think about what to do with that. 11:33, 19 February 2012 (EST)
 * My point is that whether or not the stages in Four Swords are counted as dungeons, they're enough like dungeons that naming this page "Death Mountain (Dungeon)" could cause confusion. --Osteoderm Jacket 23:09, 19 February 2012 (EST)


 * I think we can go ahead and rename them without the whole labyrinth thing; however, I agree with Fizzle as to waiting for more consensus in splitting the second quest dungeons, since I don't think many people have agreed to that just yet...? --Dany36 22:59, 19 February 2012 (EST)

Second Quest dungeons and merged or separate pages
The thing about keeping the dungeons on the same page is that there are several problems: In fact, the only thing they have in common is the Triforce piece given and the level number (in some cases the location is the same, but this not being the case for most of them makes it moot).
 * 1) The articles are titled based on the names of the First Quest dungeons, which are based on their shapes which are different to the Second Quest dungeons
 * 2) The dungeons themselves are located in different places (in most cases)
 * 3) The dungeons have different bosses (except Death Mountain)
 * 4) The dungeons have different layouts
 * 5) The dungeons have different items
 * 6) The dungeons have different enemies (in most cases)

But that's not even my biggest problem. My biggest problem is what should be done with the dungeons. They are kind of similar to the original dungeons, but they're about as similar as the Second Quest dungeons. Since BS The Legend of Zelda has Map 1 and Map 2, if they go on the currently existing pages there will be four different dungeon layouts with different contents in different locations across 2 (arguably 3) different games. Until this is decided, information on the BS Zelda dungeons can't really be added.

If they are split, I would suggest a naming convention of "Level 1 (Second Quest)" etc. and "Level 1 (BS Zelda Map 1)" etc. -- Snorlax Monster  18:16, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
 * I've brought this up before and I agree entirely. Not only that, but most of the dungeons in Ancient Stone Tablets are ALSO known by their level number, and they are also entirely different.
 * After we split many other dungeons from each other (like the Forest Temple), I'm not sure if there's quite as much opposition to this move now, but... yeah. I agree though. Level 1 on the Second Quest is a Z, not an Eagle. And after Level 1, which is still faintly similar to Eagle in terms of enemies and appearance, they start varying massively and end up being nothing alike. Not only that, but the official guide for the game does not call any of the Second Quest dungeons by these names, like they do with those in the First Quest. 20:51, 6 February 2013 (UTC)


 * I have no problem with splitting them. I think it's safe to say we can go ahead with this. Anyone who was against it should've said so by now. :P
 * I'm not sure I like the idea of having 16 BS Zelda stubs hanging around, though. Why don't we start with a big merged page called "Dungeons in BS Zelda" (divided into two sections, one for each map), see what we have, and go from there? 15:51, 12 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Yeah, this is probably the best way to go with BS Zelda Map 1 and Map 2. AST has much more unique dungeons, but not sure what to do with them yet, they seem to be unnamed, except for a couple that appear in the same locations as A Link to the Past (Eastern Palace, Desert Palace). 17:15, 12 April 2013 (UTC)