Zelda Wiki:Discussion Center


 * Archive 1

Status of dungeon names in the Valiant comics
Feel free to move this topic to another page if it should be somewhere else; I'm rather unsure where this should be, since it's about an issue that spans several articles, but it's about a specific detail that potentially affects all of them. I'm posting this here because I can't find the original "X Labyrinth" vs. "X" discussion for dungeons in The Legend of Zelda.

It does seem that in the game's manual and in all definitely canonical sources I'm aware of the dungeons are referred to as "Eagle", "Moon", "Manji", etc. and the names "Eagle Labyrinth", "Moon Labyrinth", "Manji Labyrinth", etc. do not appear. However, I can't help but notice that the "X Labyrinth" names are mentioned in excerpts from the ambiguously-canon Valiant comics. Does this usage have any relevance? Although the events of the comics have dubious canonicity, does this mean names used in them are to be disregarded altogether, or are they still treated as "official" names? If they are, should they be treated as having equal validity with the "Labyrinth"-less names and usage of them on the wiki not changed, or should they be "secondary" names, with usage of the "primary" names from the manual preferred? I ask this because I noticed this usage in the comics while editing the old "X Labyrinth" names to their "X" forms from the manual. --Osteoderm Jacket 18:55, 4 June 2012 (EDT)


 * Hmm...that's interesting, I hadn't noticed that. I think that the article names should just be without the "Labyrinth" stuff, since that's not how they're called in any of the "true" canon material (games, game manuals, etc.). However, I don't really think it's...necessary to change out the old "X Labyrinth" to "X" from articles that are not about the actual labyrinth in question. Of course, that may just be me being lazy, but if others want to go ahead and do it, that's fine by me. :P --Dany36 18:26, 6 June 2012 (EDT)


 * I should hedge this a little. Because the comics, like most English-language comics, use all caps, it's not clear (at least from the excerpts and scans; I haven't read the comics and it's possible that the names are mentioned in case-sensitive contexts somewhere) whether the dungeons are being called "X Labyrinth", which implies that "Labyrinth" is part of the dungeon's name, or "X labyrinth", which implies that it is not. The example I'm thinking of, on Eagle, is quoted with "labyrinth" not capitalized, but the comic itself is all caps so that probably doesn't mean much. --Osteoderm Jacket 00:55, 8 June 2012 (EDT)


 * I'm late on this, but what Osteoderm said was my main reasoning for moving the pages in the first place. The manual never refers to the dungeons as "Eagle Labyrinth" with caps, merely Eagle labyrinth. And since the term "dungeon" was not in use yet, it is merely just a describing word rather than an actual name. When the dungeons are listed in the manual, they are simply given single names, including Death Mountain, and Hyrule Historia does this too. The official guide for the game ALSO refers to them simply by their single names. Besides all that, the cartoons and comics are in no way canon, anyway. Of course, referring to them as "X labyrinth" is perfectly acceptable and can help allieviate confusion, but it's best to keep labyrinth in lowercase, I think. Otherwise it would be like calling the Forest Temple the "Forest Temple Dungeon". 15:04, 13 June 2012 (EDT)

'Confirmed' user right
Hey, everyone. I don't want to wait 30 days and have 200 edits to become autoconfirmed. I wish a 'confirmed' user right could be set up on Zelda Wiki so it is necessary for accounts to be exempted from the customary confirmation period. The 'confirmed' group should contain the same rights as the 'autoconfirmed' group. After the 'confirmed' user group is set up, please list the group at Help:Group Rights. -- Cuddles  (Sit next door) 14:44, 5 June 2012 (EDT)
 * The problem is, we think of Autocomfirmed as a reward for users who have shown their interests into editing and expanding on the articles that revolve around the Legend of Zelda. If the requirements were to be set down to this low, many users would take advantage of this and just edit their userpages, which doesn't contribute to the wiki at all. I would have to disagree. XXSuperXXNintendoXx 15:38, 6 June 2012 (EDT)
 * While the rest of the staff and I agree that 200 edits is slightly excessive, I must say it's really not that hard to accumulate edits here. Having been around wikis and having the know-how, I understand how frustrating it is to be limited on rights. However, I also understand that these limits are in place for a reason: to prevent nonconstructive edits, spam bots and vandalism and to ensure that users know both how to edit and how this wiki runs. The 30-day limit ensures that the users have an ample opportunity to get a feel for how things are ran.
 * Now, the staff have taken your suggestion into consideration, but have decided that it's not enough of an issue to warrant any considerable change. As aforementioned, it's simple to rack up the edits, and there are several pages needing improvement that you can easily tackle to complete this. As for the 30-day limit, we ask that you show patience; this time will likely pass much quicker than you expect. 16:19, 6 June 2012 (EDT)
 * It's pretty important that a wiki with autoconfirm limits has a 'confirmed' user right for users who don't want to wait until they are autoconfirmed. 30 days and 200 edits is too long for me to become autoconfirmed. -- Cuddles  (Sit next door) 23:32, 6 June 2012 (EDT)


 * The staff has given a lot of thought to the matter and we adamantly believe this would not be right for us. One reason being that we are supposed to be the wiki of the Zelda community; made by the people, for the people. In the vast majority of the decision-making at Zelda Wiki, every user's opinion counts just as much as that of the staff. And so it would go against that philosophy for the staff alone to decide who gets to be exempted from certain rules. Personally, I would feel like a hypocrite with that kind of responsibility.


 * That being said, we are more than willing to discuss lowering the standards for the autoconfirmed group. Many users, myself included, feel as though 30 days and 200 edits is excessive. As already discussed, many of us would be confortable with even cutting the standards in half—100 edits and 2 weeks—if userpage edits could somehow be excluded. This would assure 100 main wiki edits which is more than enough for peope to learn the ropes and prove themselves.


 * Anyone who has any comments or suggestions is welcome to voice them. We appreciate all of your input. In fact, we thrive on it. 17:06, 7 June 2012 (EDT)


 * I agree with halving the requirements. It's long overdue. 00:48, 8 June 2012 (EDT)


 * I also agree. Count me in. --Dany36 17:01, 8 June 2012 (EDT)


 * I think the new conditions are fair enough, so I'm all for it. 21:51, 8 June 2012 (EDT)


 * Instead of introducing a 'confirmed' right, I would like it to be shortened to 1 week and 100 edits. -- Cuddles  (Sit next door) 00:50, 9 June 2012 (EDT)


 * Actually, I do agree with halving the requirements. -- Cuddles  (Sit next door) 22:06, 9 June 2012 (EDT)


 * I think the limitations are good as they are... I didn't notice my limitations until I had like 195 edits and been here for 29 days - That might just be me or whatever, but to the point: wasn't there a part of the login that autoconfirmed users automatically skip? I think one of the rights a so called "confirmed" user could/should have is skipping that thing (whatever it is). If this is the only right given to this new group of users, maybe the limit should be set at 25 go 30 edits and a week, how does that sound? -- 14:43, 11 June 2012 (EDT)


 * I found another good idea: 8 days and 70 edits. -- Cuddles  (Sit next door) 16:00, 11 June 2012 (EDT)


 * OK. I think the autoconfirm limit is good already. I just have to wait a while and make some edits, then - viola. -- Cuddles  (Sit next door) 16:05, 11 June 2012 (EDT)


 * Personally I'd have to say that 150 edits and anywhere from 3-4 weeks is a good confirmation level. I realize that it is quite annoying to have to deal with limitations, but if someone really wants to stick around this place, then they shouldn't be too much of a hindrance  22:05, 13 June 2012 (EDT)

Instant Commons
I'm suggesting that Instant Commons be enabled for Zelda Wiki. Commons is a media respiratory of freely licensed images, icons, and SVG vector files. After InstantCommons is enabled, be sure to list Zelda Wiki at Sites using InstantCommons. -- Cuddles  (Sit next door) 01:42, 7 June 2012 (EDT)


 * We'll look into the matter. However, given that Zelda Wiki rarely uses images from the Commons, I don't see how this feature would be useful for us. 10:50, 9 June 2012 (EDT)


 * But we want to use images from Wikimedia Commons without the hassle of uploading them to Zelda Wiki. -- Cuddles  (Sit next door) 22:22, 9 June 2012 (EDT)


 * I like to think we've been doing fine with Commons images as is, but in any case, enabling this feature would require access to the wiki's configuration settings. We'll have to run it by the dude who owns the ZW server so we can gain access. But he seems to be kept pretty busy running Zelda Universe and with all this E3 business it might be a while before we're able to get a hold of him. We'll get back to you when we can. 07:45, 11 June 2012 (EDT)


 * I don't think anyone has uploaded anything from Commons in the past 6 months. If we see more files coming from Commons, we may consider enabling this. Otherwise, it is unnecessary. 07:51, 11 June 2012 (EDT)

Tingle and CD-i enemies seperate from normal templates?
This isn't a big deal, but it's something that's been bothering me for a little while: should Tingle and CD-i enemies be listed on the normal enemy templates? I noticed if you look at Template:HumanEnemy that there's basically a swarth of oddly named * enemies in a big group that end up looking out of place amongst the others. These are all enemies from the CD-i games, which of course are not considered canon in the slightest, but they're included there all the same. It seems unusual to do this; it would be like including characters from these games on the Template:Characters list, for example, or including enemies and characters from the cartoons and comics on said lists (which are arguably MORE canon, sort of). I'm less bothered about the Tingle games, as they are at least created by Nintendo, but generally it just seems awkward to include non-canon material in these templates. I think what makes it especially odd is that we already have a template for CD-i enemies here, Template:Philips_CD-i_Games _Enemy so it seems unnecessary to include them in the other template as well as they're basically all humanoids of some sort anyway.

Also, the * listing by each of these enemies is quite vague and doesn't really alert users to their non-canonical status, rather it serves to simply draw attention to them instead, as if they're somehow special. I have no problem with the wiki covering CD-i stuff, I just feel a bit awkward whenever it's given the same level of precedence, or in this case, seemingly MORE precedence, or at least more visibility than the canonical material. Perhaps if people disagree with keeping them seperate, there could at least be a change to how they are listed, especially as most enemy templates now have seperate sections within? 15:30, 13 June 2012 (EDT)
 * Well technically the Template:Philips_CD-i_Games _Enemy is just the bosses from the CD-i games. Also the Human Enemy template is only one of the templates that have the * enemies. In fact I believe ALL the templates have at least one * enemy in them. Anyway even thought the non-canon and ambiguous canon enemies are at the very least in their appropriate area's (i.e. Oyster being in the Aquatic Enemiest template and Malmord being in the Living Corpses and Disembodied Enemies template.) But thats just me and I thought I'd add my two cents in. --Heroofstuff 22:59, 13 June 2012 (EDT)


 * I agree with Fizzle on this one. Non-canon/ambiguous canon material should be treated separately from main Zelda titles when possible. What especially bothers me is that most of the enemies from TRR don't even have names, so we're filling our nav templates with fanon titles. We could easily create separate templates for the enemies from the Tingle series and the CD-i games. Also, we can easily move Template:Philips CD-i Games Enemy to a more appropriate name. 13:13, 14 June 2012 (EDT)


 * While I'm with Fizzle on seperating the enemies I'd like to know what our plans are for enemies that do NOT appear in games like the Goron Golem? Do we leave those in the templates or remove them since for all honesty they dont exist? --Shadow Reaper 23:44, 15 June 2012 (EDT)
 * Okay I just finished seperating Tingle's enemies but how do we want to seperate the CD-i enemies? --Shadow Reaper 05:14, 16 June 2012 (EDT)


 * I did not realize that the Tingle enemies do not have official names at all, is that true? That gives me even more incentive to move them to their own template. Which has now been done, anyway! I assume that aside from the bosses, regular enemy names are not known for most enemies in the game? I do actually own the first game but only a small number of enemies have been named so far, I believe. I ought to play it some more, I got stuck early on. Weird game.
 * Shadow Reaper, for beta enemies I think we can set up a specific beta enemy template for stuff like the Arwing, the Cannon Soldier, and any others, or possibly just a beta category where needed. There are not many of them, and while some of them like the Arwing are quite random and unusual, others are just enemies that simply failed to make the final cut and were still intended to be in the game at some point or other. I would suggest at this point that we add a small "Unused Enemy" category to the bottom of any templates that include these enemies.
 * As for the CD-i enemies, I don't think it would cause much harm to give them their own template away from the others, if people don't mind that too much. Perhaps there could be a template for each game, that way you can include normal and boss enemies on each one? How official are the names for some of these enemies, though? As far as I'm aware, most aren't named, but most are clearly based on enemies from the first two games. I assume the bosses are named, but most of the regular enemies don't seem to be, so maybe they don't need to be on a template yet. I wish there was a way for me to play the games, I am morbidly interested. Not enough to spend money on them though, haha. 09:08, 16 June 2012 (EDT)
 * There's full gameplay walk throughts on youtubue. Showsni and Halfblind gamer are you best bet. Also yeah as far as I can tell few enemies have in Tingle or CD-i games have offical name. However Gamespot has at least some of the ZA enemies and a few have in game names like the Klepies. I think strategy wiki has some of the Tingle enemies as well. --Shadow Reaper 17:07, 16 June 2012 (EDT)

Zelda's Adventure
I'd like to start adding the enemies from the enemies from ZA but have a couple of hangups before I start. As per the discussion above several enemies are exclusive to this game and therefore have no names and secondly the only way I can obtain the images is via screen caps from youtube which isn't very high def. So should I go ahead and do this or leave the enemy page alone? --Shadow Reaper 23:54, 15 June 2012 (EDT)


 * Hmmm...well, I was looking through this FAQ and they have a section for enemies (section L). Most of them seem familiar so they could probably go under "Non-canon Appearances" in their respective enemy articles. For the ZA-only enemies, we could just base their names from what that FAQ uses, just to have their attacks, weaknesses, and appearance documented somewhere on the wiki. Based on that, we will also probably need an Enemies in Zelda's Adventure article, too. --Dany36 00:32, 16 June 2012 (EDT)


 * Now by Enemies in Zelda's Adventure article, do you mean something like a gallery page or something? --Shadow Reaper 00:48, 16 June 2012 (EDT)


 * Something like this. If you're missing images for a particular image, replace it with File:No Image.png until we eventually upload a proper image. It would be nice to have some good quality images, but cropped youtube screencaps are better than nothing. 03:07, 16 June 2012 (EDT)
 * Okay I can do that. That shouldn't be a problem. Thanks ^^ --Shadow Reaper 03:36, 16 June 2012 (EDT)


 * Are you sure that there is no way to obtain sprites of these enemies? If you look here... Gallery:Enemies in Link: The Faces of Evil there is a whole set of sprites of all the enemies from that game. I would assume that Zelda's Adventure enemies can be ripped in a similar fashion. How this was done, I don't know, because I'm not aware of CD-i emulation or sprite ripping. I would suggest you maybe send a message to Herofstuff, who uploaded each of those images. Perhaps he can help. 09:15, 16 June 2012 (EDT)
 * I searched everywhere I could think of; Google image, yahoo image, Bing, photobucket, flickr, Deviantart, Sprite resourse, sprite database, even other Zelda site. There's nothin' on the web that are just the sprites, and to make matters worse every image has a background that makes transparenting difficult. But I did find some rather decent quality images so I could still add those after cropping them. But other will still need to be screen capped from youtube. Sorry Fizzle. --Shadow Reaper 19:23, 17 June 2012 (EDT)


 * Hey, it's still better than nothing. Unfortunately, Fizzle, it seems Heroofstuff has left the wiki, so we can't expect much from that end. A while back though I looked into CD-i emulation out of curiosity. The Faces of Evil and Wand of Gamelon aren't much of a problem to run, but I haven't been able to get a working Zelda's Adventure copy. The only one that I could find apparently can't run on certain systems for "unknown reasons". There might not be a working ROM of Zelda's Adventure out there or an emulator that can run it.  19:59, 17 June 2012 (EDT)


 * I found the sprites from the first two games on Spriter's Resource, so that's presumably where Heroofstuff got them, anyway. No Zelda's Adventure stuff there, presumably for the same reason. So yeah, using Youtube or screenshots unfortunately seems the best option. Interesting that those games can be run, however. I may check them out someday if I feel like torturing myself. Maybe they're not that bad! Ha. 16:03, 18 June 2012 (EDT)

The Legend of Zelda: Unnecessarily Long Titles
A lot of our articles have unnecessarily long and redundant titles. Bosses in The Legend of Zelda: Phantom Hourglass, Characters in The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past, Dungeons in The Legend of Zelda: Link's Awakening, Figurines in The Legend of Zelda: The Minish Cap, Gallery:Enemies in The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword, Items in The Legend of Zelda: Oracle of Seasons and so on. Do we really need to mention "The Legend of Zelda"? Our readers probably know the full titles already, and repeating this filler over and over makes it a hassle to write the names of these articles. Of course, the pages about the games themselves should retain "The Legend of Zelda", but it seems unnecessary for other pages. 08:06, 17 June 2012 (EDT)


 * These long titles make linking to the pages (and searching for them) tedious. I'm all for it. As it stands, I think only our Trading Sequence pages do not use the full titles. "Ocarina of Time Trading Sequence" is much more simple and concise than "The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time Trading Sequence". I can't think of a reason why we shouldn't do this to the rest of our pages as well. 08:12, 17 June 2012 (EDT)


 * I agree. The readers don't need a constant reminder that it's The Legend of Zelda and everyone would probably appreciate the shortened titles. 11:37, 17 June 2012 (EDT)


 * Agreed for reasons already stated! --Dany36 13:16, 17 June 2012 (EDT)

Major and Minor Antagonists
The template for characters says Malladus and Demise are major antagonist, while Chancellor Cole and Ghirahim are minor antagonists. I think these should be switched. By definition (I read this in my dictionary) an antagonist is one who opposes with active resistance. Would it be active resistance if Demise and Malladus only "oppose" Link at the end of the game? Ghirahim and Chancellor Cole are the ones trying to wake Demise and Malladus, they are the ones trying to destroy Hyrule. Just because a character is fought last doesn't make him the major antagonist! --Person777 14:43, 20 June 2012 (EDT)


 * Arguably, Cole and Ghirahim are trying to free their masters so they can destroy Hyrule. Although the Ghirahim and Cole appear more often throughout the game, ultimately they're just serving a greater force. They aren't the real threat; Demise and Malladus are. Same goes for Skull Kid and Majora or Zant and Ganon. The thing is, what makes an antagonist "major" or "minor" is pretty subjective, so there's no black and white here. That being said, I think the template is fine as is. 15:34, 20 June 2012 (EDT)

Well, I get that but it's kind of a wierd definition of serving if Malladus eats Cole and uses his body or if Demise... well I don't even know what happened to Ghirahim. Either way what I'm saying is if Cole and Ghirahim had ceased to exist Malladus and Demise wouldn't have even have come back when they did. And I understand Zant and Ganondorf because Ganondorf was just working behind the scenes. He was the one who shrouded Hyrule in twilight. --Person777 13:28, 21 June 2012 (EDT)


 * I think the template is good as it is too. Ghirahim is nothing more than Demise's servant and when playing the game, I thought Ghirahim WAS Demise's sword (or at least the spirit living within) just like Fi was Link's. And though Cole isn't exactly under Malladus' control throughout the game and rather thinks he can control the demon and that Malladus would obey him and his orders. When seen in perspective like that, Cole is kind of stupid. If Cole actually was the major antagonist of the game, then I think there would be an epic boss fight in the end against him, but in the end, it's not Cole that Link faces. But what do I know? That Embrose Duet is killing me!!!! 15:44, 21 June 2012 (EDT)


 * I get what you're saying. The Template is good as is. And I feel for you, I couldn't do the Embrose Duet myself either. --Person777 20:10, 21 June 2012 (EDT)

Non-Canon Images in the Galleries
Recently me and Fizzle have been discussing this but what does everyone think of allowing non-canon images into the canon galleries? Some pages (mostly enemies) don't go by games only by description of the enemy. Not allowing new non-canon enemy info to really be added, because it doesn't bring anything new to the table. Leaving only the image gallery to place the images. However recently we've been seperating the canon and non-canon as much as possible (removing ambiguous and non-canon enemies from the enemy templates), so whats the communities opinion. Do we allow non-canon images into the enemy galleries or leave them seperate? --Shadow Reaper 03:53, 25 June 2012 (EDT)


 * I don't see a problem with having those images in galleries. What does bother me, though, is how the non-canon games are included in the infobox (e.g. Goriya, Keese, Peahat). It doesn't seem like the place to be mixing canon and non-canon. I was thinking we should rename the "other media" field to "non-canon appearances" so it can include the CD-i and Tingle games as well, and keep the "games" field for mainstream Zelda titles. 07:54, 25 June 2012 (EDT)


 * I had also already stated that I don't think it's much of a problem to have non-canon appearances of enemies in galleries. Anyway, I think what HK mentioned is a good idea. That would of course also include the comics, manga, and cartoon appearances. --Dany36 14:13, 25 June 2012 (EDT)

How about dividing the galleries by section? Canon in one and non-canon in another? -- 17:40, 25 June 2012 (EDT)
 * I can get started on reorganizing the info boxes (as many have seen creating article isn't my forte I've got the info just not the ability to get what in my head onto the page) :P as for K2L's idea I like it hows does every one else feel about a seperate gallery for Ambigous and non-canon images? --Shadow Reaper 20:27, 25 June 2012 (EDT)


 * Hey man, we all appreciate the effort. Practice makes perfect. Anyway, I like K2L's idea as well. 20:32, 25 June 2012 (EDT)
 * Thanks Hylian King. Anywho I'll see what I can do (not sure if its the site or my computer but something isn't acting right). But I'll get right on it. :D --Shadow Reaper 20:37, 25 June 2012 (EDT)


 * My bad, I didn't know the idea of splitting the galleries into two had been brought up, but either way, I still think we should wait for more people to comment on this before doing it. I don't really like the idea of it (we usually place the non-canon stuff at the end of the galleries), but if the majority agrees, then...I guess there would be no other choice. :P --Dany36 21:37, 25 June 2012 (EDT)

I was away from the wiki for a few days so I couldn't chime in, but here's my take on it... It's probably best not to get into an argument about what is more or less canon, but I would put the CD-i games pretty much only one step away from fan-made media. Unlike other non-canon sources like the mangas, there is pretty much zero Nintendo involvement in them aside from the licensed names (on the other hand, the mangas appear to have Nintendo overseeing them a lot and there's lots of evidence to support this, and while that doesn't make them canon, it at least makes them recognized by Nintendo, hence the appearance in Hyrule Historia). As far as I'm aware they're not even "The Legend of Zelda" games. The phrase "The Legend of Zelda" was not used in their creation. They only got the license to use the names and likenesses of Link, Zelda and Ganon. That all said, they're obviously interesting curiosities, but I personally don't like mixing them up with everything that makes the series what it is.

I do quite like the idea of having a separate gallery for non-canon, if possible. If we take a look at the gallery for Gallery:Ganon, for example, the non-canon media is in a separate section. However, I personally would like to go one step further and make a distinction between things with the Original Nintendo Seal of Quality (like Smash Bros.) and stuff that's licensed to use the names but not "official". Does this idea make sense? I think it could be a good way of distinguishing between media that is recognized as relating to the series yet non-canon, and media that is simply not recognized at all. I would say for example, that the Smash Bros. games are massively relevant to the Zelda series, despite not being canon, while the CD-i games were never relevant to the series as a whole.

This also applies to artwork from guides. I've noticed there's a lot of artwork from the Million Publishing guide on many of the articles; I don't believe this guide was official and the art is pretty much redrawn sprites. Notice on the Goriya page how their depiction of the Goriya is a misinterpretation of how the sprite looks. What should we do about stuff like this? I would put it in the same category as the CD-i stuff.

Oh, on the infoboxes, I agree with Hylian King, but I would again go one step further and suggest three categories rather than just two, because while I don't consider the Smash Bros. and Tingle series as canon I also don't like lumping them in with the CD-i games and television series.

Gosh, apologies for the the wall of text there. 12:51, 27 June 2012 (EDT)