The two Zora articles need to be merged, not divided further. The two distinct types of Zora may have quite different appearances, but Zelda.com states that a Zola (River Zora) is simply a female Zora turned bad. They are the same species. --[[User:Adamcox82|Adam]] 18:17, 28 October 2007 (EDT)
{{Archive List|1}}
==Page Archived==
I archived the page, it's over 27K. None of the discussions on it were current. And mostly like the topics were wrapped up on the page. Also Archive page will be protected to prevent new posts to discussions. {{:User:Axiomist1875@legacy41958496/sig}} 04:30, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
:I always thought they were different species but I agree that they should be merged.--[[User:Green Tunic|Green]] 18:33, 28 October 2007 (EDT)
== Salt Water ==
I always thought that a Zola was the fish-variation wareas the Zoras were a mammalian variation. I honestly thought they were not related at all.
Could someone who has played [[Majora's Mask]] and [[Oracle of Ages]] add something about Zoras living in salt water? All the games I've played show them living exclusively in fresh water and it's odd that they're not present in the salt water covered world of [[Wind Waker]] and [[Phantom Hourglass]]. There seems to be a lot of confusion over this point around the 'web, as few real-world fish species are capable of surviving in both environments. --[[User:Rootbeer277|Rootbeer277]] 14:10, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
::Zelda.com has quite a number of inaccurate pieces of info and obviously is not (properly) updated since the the Oracle games. To illustrate my two statements:
:But there aren't too many Zoras swimming in the sea anyway. Most of them are in Zora Hall. Plus, that's in Termina, they may be able to swin in salt water, similar to how Gorons are able to stay underwater in Hyrule (TP) while Terminan Gorons can't.--[[User:K2L|K2L]] 02:34, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
:#Medli: Young Medli was ''a princess'' of the Rito tribe on Dragon Roost Island in the Great Sea. She possessed both unquestioned bravery and the ability to fly. - Princess eh? How about no?
:#Daria: Darias are ''disgusting hybrids'' of Hylians and alligators. They are expert axe-throwers, and their axes are so sharp that they are able to slice through most Hyrulean Shields. - I just love how unbiased that site is. At multiple points (like the Koholint article), it becomes clear that whoever wrote Zelda.com's encyclopedia knows nothing more than the gamers and as such, has filled several articles with their own interpretation and opinion.
:#Why do I have to look up Poe if I want info on Ghinis or Ghosts? Those are completely different creatures.
:#Zola: Zola is the name given to any ''female Zora'' who turns against ''Hylians'' and chooses to ''live a life of violence''. They normally hide underwater, then spit fireballs at anyone who walks by. - Did the PH River Zora look like females to you? No, and seeing how Nintendo dealt with the genders of all other races, it's safe to say they are not female. - Do they only attack Hylians? What's so special about Hylians that they specifically turned against them? - Do all of them live a life of violence or do we remember a few non-violent River Zora? Yes, there have been a few instances of non-violent River Zora (although I can imagine only one of them truly counts). Furthermore, the physical appearance of River Zora and Sea Zora is so different, it's ridiculous to think one is the evil version of the other.
::In addition, we have this quote which contradicts the Zola statement: Zora's Flippers: Designed by Zoras to be sold on the Hyrulean market, these form-fitting flippers can make it easy for anyone to swim in the deepest of water. - In case you've forgotten, the Zora's Flippers first appeared in ALTTP and that game only had Rvier Zoras. Why would a "hostile race" who "turned against the Hylians" want to do the whole trading thing with them?
::The second point is that my guess is that the encyclopedia was created around the time of OOT and MM and only properly updated after the release of the Oracle games. There is some serious info missing from the latter games. What I mean is, that info was put there by someone and never looked at again. How can one trust that info then?
The time between mm and oot is strange due to all the time travel done in the two games.
::River Zoras and Sea Zoras are not the same species. If anything, I guess they are at least as different as the four established human races. I don't consider Zelda.com canon because of its biased articles, lack of info, contradictions with ingame info etc. But even if I cannot make you doubt Zelda.com, the River Zoras and Sea Zoras are completely different qua role, powers, looks etc. It doesn't make sense to put them in the same article.
::P.S., I just found what I was looking for: the [http://www.zeldalegends.net/gallery/displayimage.php?pid=42&fullsize=1 instruction booklet] of The Legend of Zelda. I'm assuming this is where the idea of River Zora only being females comes from. Woopdiedoo, the same booklet that calls Moblins Molblins. Anyway, Nintendo never touched on the subject again, but that doen't mean it still counts (or ever counted for that matter). If anyone can translate [http://www.zeldalegends.net/gallery/displayimage.php?pid=137&fullsize=1 this], it would be most appreciated. [[User:213.17.22.115|213.17.22.115]] 05:38, 29 October 2007 (EDT)
==Ruto and Lulu's boobs==
Biologically speaking, female zoras shouldn't have boobs since it is shown in Majora's Mask that they lay eggs and reproduce like fish, therefore, they should lack breasts, which are exclusive to mammals.
Then again, that's what this world's biology would say, not Hyrule's. :)
[[User:CorosiveFrog|Ms Froggette]] 00:00, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
::::I'm all for discussion and debate, but this should take place before large-scale, drastic changes are made (and preferably in a less accusatory fashion). My main objection to your edits was the renaming of the entire Zora article to the unofficial fan-created name Sea Zora (perhaps Ocean Zora would be more apt), which also describes the Zora of OoT and TP who live only in freshwater rivers. And yes, I know zelda.com is riddled with inaccuracy. As are most of the games themselves. As are a number of your above statements. --[[User:Adamcox82|Adam]] 17:00, 29 October 2007 (EDT)
:Yes but Zoras are humanoid creatures they may reproduce like fish however they have a humanoid figure so what appears to be boobs may just be a way to distinguish an adult male and female Zora[[User:Theif 1@legacy41963495|Theif 1]] 01:42, 30 May 2011 (EDT)
::Some mammals lay eggs, some fish give birth to live young. Let Zoras have their boobs in peace. The boob police have already done what they can to cover them up in OoT 3D. Poor censored Ruto! I worry for the day that Twilight Princess is remade and Midna gets some kind of natural bra. [[User:Fizzle|Fizzle]] 06:17, 26 September 2011 (EDT)
:::I just interpreted the "breasts" as part of them being anthropomorphic. I mean, there are no fish with a humanoid body structure with two legs, two arms, and a vertical spine either. For all we know, maybe they actually suckle those larvae. Or maybe they're a secondary sexual characteristic with no other function, like a male peacock's tail. Or hell, maybe they used to prey on humans and the appearance of human secondary sexual traits aided in luring them to their doom. :)--[[User:Ice Medallion@legacy41965084|Osteoderm Jacket]] 17:58, 13 January 2012 (EST)
==Spirit Tracks==
:::::It was accusatory? My apologies. I edited it a little before I posted it and didn't think it was still....accusatory. Anyway, Sea Zora is the name Oracle of Ages gave them. It is not fan-created. "Don't think us noble ''sea Zoras'' the same as those savage, vulgar ''river Zoras''!" - some sea Zora in OOA. I would never have made the earlier changes if this quote didn't exist. I think that at the best, it says something about their prefered habitat. Because Sea Zora can be seen in the rivers of Hyrule in OOT and TP, and River Zoras in the waters of the Great Ocean/Sea in PH.
I havent Completed Spirit Tracks, but the tunnel to underwater in the ocean realm resembles both river zoras, and the zoras helmets in TP. Somebody could add this, and the ruto crown as references to zoras in ST. Id do it, but im sticking to trivia for now. [[User:Nicktheslayer@legacy41959306|Nicktheslayer]] 03:06, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
:::::Just two more things:
::::#As much as I love criticism (not being sarcastic here), I prefer it if an example is given. "And yes, I know zelda.com is riddled with inaccuracy. (...) As are a number of your above statements." - care to explain?
::::#Why do you keep removing my edits to the River Zora article? First of all, it's biased (lacking the grace and beauty of the other zora race? Ugh, the I feel my stomach turning upside down.) and lacks info about their appearances in four games at the least. How am I supposed to edit it to make it look better if I can't even have a good look at the original edit?[[User:213.17.22.115|213.17.22.115]] 03:42, 30 October 2007 (EDT)
:Those points are probably better suited as simple trivia points. {{:User:Melchizedek1866@legacy41958488/sig}} 09:38, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
::::::Dealing with your points in reverse order:
== Probably Not ==
::::::2. If the River Zora article is such a "biased piece of nonsense", how is it so greatly improved by removing 3 words, and pasting in text from the Zora article? (BTW, I do however fully agree with the removal of "''Unlike their peaceful cousins, the River Zora have no hint of beauty or grace.''", and have now removed it again).
::::::1. As an example: "Why would a "hostile race" who "turned against the Hylians" want to do the whole trading thing with them?" When/where is it specified which "species" King Zora is? Judging by appearance alone, he is the same species as the hostile Zoras, which could equally serve to reinforce the assertion that they are simply violent Sea Zora females.
::::::And I do find statements like ''"In case you've forgotten"'' and ''"How about no?"'' fairly accusatory... Anyway, all petty bickering aside, this is an encyclopedia, not a discussion forum. Given the wild inconsistencies in information within the games and all other official sources, we should be aiming to have an article which sticks closely to the known facts. The only result that I can see from running two separate articles is that information will be duplicated, or worse contradicted. The only workable option is to merge the articles into one, and find some way to diplomatically represent the ambiguity in the nature of the Zora. --[[User:Adamcox82|Adam]] 04:24, 30 October 2007 (EDT)
Is it possible that Zora's name came from [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vayots_Dzor Վայոց Ձոր], one of the provinces of Armenia? -- [[User:Ember Incubus|կրակ]] <sup><sup>([[User talk:Ember Incubus|խոսել]])</sup></sup> -- 06:31, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
:Probably not. The likelihood of that is about the same as the Zora's name coming from the book entitled ''Go Gator and Muddy the Water'', written by author Zora Neale Hurston. And I thought it was funny that you print screened that little multiple edit thing with Neo from my userpage. That was a joke too, btw =) {{:User:Cipriano/sig}} 06:48, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
== Bomb Ships ==
::::::#That and the part about the river zora being a subspecies of the Zora, which links here, while there is only that questionable source for it (and even then, subspecies isn't the word.); and the mentioning of their roles in the other four games. Yes, I know I should've filled in those sections a tad more, but it has been awhile since I played those games and I was hoping on editing it later (or that someone with more recent memories would see it and edit it him/herself).
This was pointed out to me and I am still doing some research on it but the bomb ships from The Wind Waker have Zora emblems on them, or Zora like. I don't know if this is the river zora ships from their evolution into Geezard or something that I am just looking to far into but it may perhaps be worth some investigating [[User:Theif 1@legacy41963495|Theif 1]] 01:41, 31 May 2011 (EDT)
::::::#I'm afraid I can't follow you logic. As far as I get it, you say King Zora (ALTTP) is a river zora and thus that means that river zoras are violent sea zora females?
:You mean [[Warship|this ship]]? Where about are the Zora emblems (I'm assuming you mean the [[Zora Sapphire]]? I can't see any connection myself. [[User:Vuvuzela2010|Vuvuzela2010]] 12:15, 1 June 2011 (EDT)
:: I don't think it was the sapphire, but like I said I am still looking into any connection on it [[User:Theif 1@legacy41963495|Theif 1]] 14:15, 1 June 2011 (EDT)
:::::::Once more, my apologies. I wasn't aiming that text to anyone in specific (at the most to Zelda.com), and thus did not deem it "rude". As from the articles, I don't think there's any need for fear of duplication and contradiction. First of all, what kind of contradiction do you think might come into existance? I can't think of anything myself. As for duplication, the Sea and River Zoras only appeared in one game together, so that's the only game section that might somewhat get doubled (and that even hardly since the two species have completely different roles). I mean, why would we mention the games they did not appear in? We don't have to touch on the Zola-Zora subject in the sea Zora article as they were called Zoras from the start. The two zora races have completely different histories throughout the zelda games, so that can't be duplicated. Yeah, some info is bound to appear twice in the encyclopedia, but that's like writing in the Jolene article that Joanne is her sister and in the Joanne article that Jolene is her sister.
== Emblem ==
:::::::Also, if any section would ever get created about the Zora appearance, biology etc., it would have to be divided into two subsections due to the differences between the two zora species.
Will you guys be adding the emblems for this and other tribes?[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 14:24, 26 December 2011 (EST)
:::::::Otherwise (if those are your only problems), I have an offer. You give me (and/or anyone else interested) a certain amount of time to create two (decent basic) articles about the River Zoras and the Sea Zoras. I will not change any links to the articles or move the Zora page to a Sea Zora page. If at the end you deem the articles duplicates of eachother or consider them contradicting, I will not fight a merge between the articles anymore.[[User:213.17.22.115|213.17.22.115]] 07:02, 30 October 2007 (EDT)
== Pluralization ==
I notice the article is inconsistent about whether the plural of "Zora" is "Zoras" or "Zora" (like "sheep"). Do the games consistently use one of these? If they do, we should only use the plural the games use.--[[User:Ice Medallion@legacy41965084|Osteoderm Jacket]] 18:14, 13 January 2012 (EST)
::::::::Sounds fair, let's see what you come up with on the two articles, and we'll look at it again from there. --[[User:Adamcox82|Adam]] 16:32, 31 October 2007 (EDT)
== Zora Hall ==
Does Majora's Mask ever refer to Zora Hall as the Terminian Zora's home or was that just assumed?
:::::::::Ok, thanks. Just one question. You've added most of the images to the River Zora article. Mind telling where they are from so I can find a good place for them in the article? Not just from what game, but also what medium.[[User:213.17.22.115|213.17.22.115]] 14:57, 1 November 2007 (EDT)
It's possible they just live in the ocean/bay and happen to have a concert hall built there for concerts. None of the games have depicted them as having houses after all.
::::::::::Here you go, I added a few. --[[User:Adamcox82|Adam]] 15:18, 1 November 2007 (EDT)
== Gills and/or lungs? ==
<gallery>
Image:Zora_LoZ.gif|Sprite from LoZ
Image:Zora_AoL.gif|Sprite from AoL
Image:RiverZora.gif|Sprite from ALttP
Image:Zola LA.gif|Sprite from LA
Image:Zola.jpg|[http://www.gamehiker.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=9&pos=73 LoZ official artwork]
Image:RiverZora.jpg|[http://www.gamehiker.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=17&pos=74 AoL official artwork]
And I've just hit the point where I have to say: "Much more I can't do. If it's not worth of staying separated now, it probably will never be, although some feedback (a subject I have not paid attention too, a biased part) would be appreciated before any drastic changes would be made."
While some Zora are never seen in water, King Zora from OoT, for example, other zora seem to be able to stay under water indefinitely and seem to be able to breathe water. examples of this are the Zora tunic from Ocarina of Time and Zora link from Majora's Mask. So are there any theories on gills/lungs floating around?
::A few things I want changed, but "can't" do on my own are:
[[User:Holyderpface|Holyderpface]] 01:05, 18 March 2013 (UTC)Holy derpface, i just failed epically...
* still looking for one image: a river zora in Phantom Hourglass (thanks for the other images)
* I am convinced that that big Zora from ALTTP had a name/title, but I can't find proof in any text dump. Does anyone know whether he was called King Zora or Great Zora (or nothing at all)? And if he had a name/title, where in the game could it be found? [[User:IfIHaveTo|IfIHaveTo]] 07:01, 3 November 2007 (EDT)
:Uhm, is anyone going to judge the articles? I mean, I can't do much more than this. As for the quote about King Zora, I'll look it up one of these days myself. It's not the only quote in a random TLOZ text dump that for some reason is not present.[[User:IfIHaveTo|IfIHaveTo]] 12:11, 9 November 2007 (EST)
== Disambiguation? Or merge? ==
:*I'm not slightly annoyed* Okay, I put a lot of work into these articles and wish to hear what others think about them (and the River Zora = Sea Zora issue alltogether). It's been over ten days since I asked and frankly, I'm getting a little impatient. I want that merge template gone (seeing how other articles with merge templates are treated) and certainty about what's going to happen with the two articles. If by tomorrow morning no one has replied, I am going my way with this article. I don't think that is unreasonable.[[User:IfIHaveTo|IfIHaveTo]] 08:37, 13 November 2007 (EST)
It's probably about time that both types of Zora were given equal status, given that Sea Zoras have not actually appeared in the series since Twilight Princess, while River Zoras make a prominent appearance in A Link Between Worlds, and were the original type of Zora. Given this, I think that this page should be moved to Sea Zora and replaced with a disambiguation page linking to one or the other.
:: Hrm... at the very least, have two sections within the article- Sea Zora and River Zora. One section for each kind,since there do seem to be some disctinctions (minor ones, yes, but they do seem to be there) yet within one handy article for all Zoras. I think that's the way to go. [[User:Dinosaur bob|Dinosaur bob]] 10:21, 13 November 2007 (EST)
:::Hi there. First of all, sorry in general for my absence from the wiki; my internet connection went into meltdown, and I was without internet access for a whole week! Second, the articles are great, I think you've done a really good job of fleshing them out, in particular the River Zora page which was woefully lacking before you started. Lastly, on the issue of merging, I want to clarify what I said earlier; when I talked about duplicate information, I wasn't accusing you. You've done an excellent job of dividing the content and making a clear distinction between the two species/clans/races, or whatever :) My concern is that, a few weeks or months from now, someone less through than yourself will come along, read one or other of the articles, assume that the information which belongs in the other is just plain missing, and the duplication will begin. Without moderation, it will then escalate into contradictory information being written. For that reason, I still believe that the two must be merged, but keeping a clear delineation into two individual sections as DinoBob suggests. --[[User:Adamcox82|Adam]] 12:12, 18 November 2007 (EST)
:Hehehe, yeah, I kinda figured out you just had not been online for a while. The reason an sich is not important, as I know people have a life outside of the world called internet and which is the more important one ;)
Alternatively, and I don't really recommend this, but we merge the two pages. However, given how they appear in Oracle of Ages, this is probably a bad idea.
:First Dinosaur bob's argument: Why? The two species have NOTHING in common with eachother, except that they are both amphibian/fish-like creatures (a tuna is not a piranha, so to say) and they both have the basic name of Zora. Following that logic, [[Link]] and [[Dark Link]] should also be merged, as they are both [[Hylian]]s and bear the (basic) name Link. I could argue that way that the [[Nejiron]] and [[Goron]] articles should be merged or the "Hook device articles" or that the [[Talk:Bombchu|Bombchu]] article should not be split. Many, many people can't see, or don't bother about differences if it isn't closely related to them. But take a look at the Homo neanderthalensis and Homo sapiens for instance. They already are more related than the two Zora races due to the latter having no (undebatable) confirmed relationship, but are they the same? Far from, that's why Wikipedia and every single encyclopedia/book out there gives them each their own articles/pages; because they are not the same, despite many "similarities" qua name and appearance.
:Then Adam's argument: I thank you for your compliment. It really is appreciated. However, I do have some questions about your arguments for a merge. First of all, I know you weren't accusing me and I appreciate you gave me the chance to prove my point that duplicate info is nearly completely avoidable. But why give me that chance if your argument now is that while it may be good now, someone else might come one day and ruin it, so it is better to merge it to avoid such a situation? That's like "my chance" was merely a diversion. True, if you would have said that then, I wouldn't have exactly been happy, but I can't say that argument is making me feel much better right now. Also, you're a mod, right? Isn't it "your job then" (*) to undo inaccurate/wrongful/stupid edits, which would include a sea zora edit in the river zora article and vice versa? Considering both articles as a whole make a clear distinction between the two species (especially if the Zora page becomes a disamb page and the zora article is moved to a sea zora page), you'd kinda have to have a lack of braincell connections to make such an edit. Also, why worry about tomorrow? I can guarantee you right here and now that one day someone will come by and resurrect the Ganondorf article. Would that have been a reason to have kept them apart?
:(*) Those "'s were meant to question each word and get any possible aggression/accusation or whatever out of that sentence, not to emphasize those three words.[[User:IfIHaveTo|IfIHaveTo]] 15:54, 18 November 2007 (EST)
::You make a good point, and I suppose I'm just letting past experience cloud my judgement. We'll leave the articles as they are for now and see how/if it develops. Again, thanks for your hard work and sorry we kinda got off on the wrong foot! :) --[[User:Adamcox82|Adam]] 16:08, 18 November 2007 (EST)
It's also possible that we distinguish them by using the term "Zora" for the monsters and "Zora Tribe" for the friendly variety, but this is probably a little awkward as well.
:I thank you. And don't say sorry. Re-reading it, I consider myself the only one to blame. I tend to get carried away when defending my points of view/opinions. Just one question though: we leave the articles as they are for now and see how they'll fare. 100% fine with that, but part of my former argument and initial request was to move "Zora" to "Sea Zora" and make Zora a disamb. So, how long should I wait before I could be allowed to make such a change?
Also note that while not explicitly stated, there seems to be a direct connection between the two species of Zora implied in A Link Between Worlds, although this was also implied with King Zora in A Link to the Past. {{:User:Fizzle8094@legacy41964097/sig}} 01:22, 4 December 2013 (UTC)
:P.S. The Sea Zora article has not been revised by anyone but me since 28 oct and the River Zora one not since 2 nov. [[User:IfIHaveTo|IfIHaveTo]] 04:56, 19 November 2007 (EST)
::I'm still unsure on that point, probably because I don't remember the name ever having been used in-game (haven't played the Oracle games, is it used elsewhere?) Could you maybe dig out a couple of quotes from the games where the name is used, then we can review the naming thing a bit more objectively? And don't worry about blame; nobody's perfect, and I've often looked back on stuff I wrote and wondered what I was thinking at the time :) --[[User:Adamcox82|Adam]] 15:39, 19 November 2007 (EST)
I think the River Zora should remain enemies until a new game, possibly one even throwing light on the subject, comes out. I'm not saying it's Nintendo's fault that they re-instated them in ALBW, but if they hadn't would we be having this convo? They were confirmed to be a feral offshoot or alternative species by the same moniker by Phantom Hourglass and Spirit Tracks. Which, while I would dispute their canonocity over various topics (such as retconning the postman twice; from Rito to a rabbit with wings to a human), this is not one I could bite on because Four Swords Adventures was already discriminating between Blue Zora and the green "monsters" that were established zora before. Ones I would readily call Geozards had ALBW not entered the equation.
How about River Zora get updated to "Zora monster" and just keep it the way it is with the distinction their hostile versus hospitable status varies between time periods. Some eras the congenial number being the majority, and other eras they're relegated to defectors (LA & FSA). That would immediately cover every game they're in without conflict. If there is, I would like to hear it.
[[User:Servantofgod|Servantofgod]] ([[User talk:Servantofgod|talk]]) 02:27, 4 December 2013 (UTC)
:I can imagine. I can only found that one quote, possibly backed up by another quote which assures the river zora are called river zora. I can't find a second quote about the sea zora though, and I know it's pointless to look anywhere else than a OOA text dump (which all have the following two quotes).
:The postman wasn't retconned, it just was a different character in each game. Honestly, I'm really having trouble trying to understand what you just said. [[User:Champion of Nayru|Champion of Nayru]] ([[User talk:Champion of Nayru|talk]]) 02:35, 4 December 2013 (UTC)
#''Don't think us noble sea Zoras the same as those savage, vulgar river Zoras!''
#''You're in the wrong place if you want to complain about being attacked by a river Zora.''
Now, just to clarify one thing: my user page states I have not played the OOx games. However, I did play some fragments of OOA once at a friend's house. I'm pretty sure that's when I first heard the two names. If memory serves me right, two sea zoras said it, both standard ones (so not the zora elder or the king) and the quote was "available" as soon as you reached their city/town.
:As for the meaning of the names, I have wondered if it's possible that the two names were only supposed to be used in OOA, where the "river" zoras solely live in the rivers and the "sea" zoras solely in the sea. Then again, those ARE their common habitats. Two out of the three populations (Hyrule, Termina, Labrynna) of sea zora we have ever seen lived in the sea (the Hyrulean ones being the exception, and then still they choose to live in/near big bodies of water). And river zoras were until PH never seen outside of rivers/small lakes. Both options are possible (that it only works for the Labrynna populations and that it works for everyone). All I can say is that it will be at least two more years until the next zelda game and thus the first possibility for Nintendo to pay anymore attention to the issue.[[User:IfIHaveTo|IfIHaveTo]] 13:24, 20 November 2007 (EST)
What wasn't clear about it? :V And yes, I mean they retconned the whole post service twice. Like they stepped over the King of Hyrule's farewell wishes by refounding Hyrule. Anyway, the point is if they didn't know what they were doing. They changed him to a human because they were introducing rabbits in the game, and couldn't have the postman as a confusing factor.[[User:Servantofgod|Servantofgod]] ([[User talk:Servantofgod|talk]]) 02:50, 4 December 2013 (UTC)
::Okay, well given the lack of difinitive in-game evidence either way, I think we should leave the articles titled as they are, as I think the second paragraph of the Zora article makes the distinction well, and explains the name adequately. Thanks for all your efforts in improving these articles. --[[User:Adamcox82|Adam]] 13:25, 21 November 2007 (EST)
:Uh, I'm not sure I follow. And to be honest I've wanted to do this for awhile, it's nothing to do with ALBW, that just happens to help my cause since it shows River Zoras are still just as relevant as the standard variety. River Zoras are not called River Zoras in most games, they're just called Zoras. They're not really a feral offshoot so much as a different interpretation of the same being. They're also much more common in the series as a whole. I'm simply arguing that both Zoras get equal status, because right now since the Zora page covers just Sea Zoras, it's giving them priority.
:As for Geozards, they're arguably a different thing altogether, despite their similarity to Zoras I'm not sure if they're genuinely related to them.
:Not sure what the Postman has to do with anything either. {{:User:Fizzle8094@legacy41964097/sig}} 13:03, 4 December 2013 (UTC)
:I am curious to see how these articles will evolve; if people will make the earlier mentioned edits. I do not guarantee I will never request/start a discussion about the name change again (before Nintendo manages to get back to the subject), but I agree that for now it's best to leave things as they are. Thanks for the support. [[User:IfIHaveTo|IfIHaveTo]] 03:22, 22 November 2007 (EST)
It is possible, even probable I was just wrong. I assumed that the Geozards were in fact Zora Warriors; but checking the source for that as
being the awful Prima Guide I desist from this line of debate! I guess I just never shook that instance of mislocalization.
== Gender ==
I'm glad to be on the same page now and support the motion for equal representation of the Zora peoples.
All in favor?
Has anyone noticed that nearly all of the Zora in TP are female. Right after unfreezing Zora's Domain, you can hear some soldiers make feminine sounding gasps. The other Zoras all seem to be female as well. This makes the postman's letter to Mr. Zora seem strange(unless it was ment for the prince). The king apparently died long before the queen. The only zora in the game that has a non-feminine physique is the prince, who is of course male. This seems that the Zora in TP are opposite of the Zora in OoT & MM, where the gender ratio was reversed. Also, regardless of how they really relate to the Zora, the Rito in TWW are all male save for Medli.
[[User:Servantofgod|Servantofgod]] ([[User talk:Servantofgod|talk]]) 22:05, 4 December 2013 (UTC)
I, of course, cannot be one hundred percent certain that all Zora in TP other than the prince are female. That, however seems to be the case. I'm surprised to find little or no mention of this anywhere one this site or on entire internet.--[[User:Matt|Matt]] 02:19, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
:Yes, just to confirm that they have a different name in Japan, and while they were called Zora Warriors in the Phantom Hourglass guide, they were renamed to Geozard in the Spirit Tracks guide to correct this misleading localization. Anyway, I'll probably move this page to Sea Zora soon unless someone majorly objects to the idea, and replace Zora with a disambiguation page. {{:User:Fizzle8094@legacy41964097/sig}} 22:35, 4 December 2013 (UTC)
:I think that the reason that you've found no reference to that is that you're the only one who thinks that. :/ Sorry, but I was actually more confused as to why I couldn't seem to actually find any female Zora outside of the dead. Their sounds can be a little feminine, yes, but remember, it's Japanese; guys can sound and look like girls allllll the dang time in those crazy Japanese creations. :P --[[User:Ando|Ando]] <small>''([[User talk:Ando|T]])''</small> 05:38, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
::Yeah, I've always got a pretty androgynous vibe from most Zoras. I get the feeling that, apart from the named Zora characters, Nintendo have tried to avoid differentiating them by gender (they are fish/amphibians after all). —[[User:Adamcox82|Adam]] <sup>([[User talk:Adamcox82|talk]])</sup> 22:24, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
It's been a while. But I found more instances of getting the Zoras in ''Twilight Princess'' to "talk". Excluding the Prince, every single one made a very feminine sound, not a little feminine. It wasn't like the slight feminine sound that the Japanese like to give male characters (damn Japs, oh sorry, no wait, yes, damn Japs). It was an unmistakable, clear-cut, and most definitely female feminine sound. I am very certain that nearly all of the Zoras are female. (How does that work? Does the prince have to? Oh, crap! That's just wrong. Damn Japs!). Instances of voices are found by coming back to Zora's Domain more and showing the sketch to a lot of them.{{:User:Matt/sig}} 08:52, June 23, 2008 (UTC)
:Okay, sure, but they lack something that made the female Zora in Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask unmistakably female. They had very obvious breasts, which none of the Twilight Princess Zora do except for [[Queen Rutela]]. {{:User:Ando/sig}}
::It could be a joke by the developers.:P{{:User:Matt/sig}} 14:18, June 23, 2008 (UTC)
Alright, i feel out of place here, but is it possible for the TP Zoras to be River Zoras? I mean, besides Retela, Ralis, and the one zora that helps with the boat rides, they all look a lot like river zoras. And i don't want any "the river zoras have only been in 2d games," because they did put sea zoras in a 2d game, so they could have put river zoras in TP to make up for it. not only that, but in several games, they've been proven to be amphibious (even though i've never played those games) so, isn't it possible? plus, the sounds could actually be following up LoZ, despite them being very, VERY friendly. Anyone want to interject? --[[user:sk8torchic|Sk8torchic]]
== Majora's Mask Types ==
Um, the article, in the MM section, talks about the physiology of Zora's or something. Anyway, I just wanted to know, why doesn't it say anything about the types? It's only in the band, but in this game, there are more types of sea Zora. Manta rays, Lung fish, I think Makau's an Eel(no flippers at the end). Just a thought. [[User:Millionandfourswords|Millionandfourswords]] 20:20, 17 October 2008 (UTC)Millionandfourswords
=="Sea" Zora==
I understand the need to distinguish this article from "River Zoras," but I think the term "Sea Zora" isn't really accurate. From what I understand, Zoras are only actually known to live in the sea in the ''Oracle'' series and ''Majora's Mask'' (which itself is arguably irrelevant since it takes place in a parallel reality), and there's also a reference to Zoras by the sea in ''Rupee Land''. In ''OoT'' and ''TP'', the world's ocean, if there is one, is never explored, but Zoras ''are'' found in the Zora's Domain and Lake Hylia. I'm not saying Zoras can't live in the sea, but they're by no means exclusive to it. I think it would be safe just to refer to them as "Zoras" in this article. [[User:Jimbo Jambo|Jimbo Jambo]] 06:26, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
Latest comment: 30 April 20091 comment1 person in discussion
I archived the page, it's over 27K. None of the discussions on it were current. And mostly like the topics were wrapped up on the page. Also Archive page will be protected to prevent new posts to discussions. Axiomist(talk)04:30, 30 April 2009 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Salt Water
Latest comment: 7 November 20092 comments2 people in discussion
Could someone who has played Majora's Mask and Oracle of Ages add something about Zoras living in salt water? All the games I've played show them living exclusively in fresh water and it's odd that they're not present in the salt water covered world of Wind Waker and Phantom Hourglass. There seems to be a lot of confusion over this point around the 'web, as few real-world fish species are capable of surviving in both environments. --Rootbeer27714:10, 21 May 2009 (UTC)Reply[reply]
But there aren't too many Zoras swimming in the sea anyway. Most of them are in Zora Hall. Plus, that's in Termina, they may be able to swin in salt water, similar to how Gorons are able to stay underwater in Hyrule (TP) while Terminan Gorons can't.--K2L02:34, 7 November 2009 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Ruto and Lulu's boobs
Latest comment: 13 August 20091 comment1 person in discussion
Biologically speaking, female zoras shouldn't have boobs since it is shown in Majora's Mask that they lay eggs and reproduce like fish, therefore, they should lack breasts, which are exclusive to mammals.
Yes but Zoras are humanoid creatures they may reproduce like fish however they have a humanoid figure so what appears to be boobs may just be a way to distinguish an adult male and female ZoraTheif 1 01:42, 30 May 2011 (EDT)
Some mammals lay eggs, some fish give birth to live young. Let Zoras have their boobs in peace. The boob police have already done what they can to cover them up in OoT 3D. Poor censored Ruto! I worry for the day that Twilight Princess is remade and Midna gets some kind of natural bra. Fizzle 06:17, 26 September 2011 (EDT)
I just interpreted the "breasts" as part of them being anthropomorphic. I mean, there are no fish with a humanoid body structure with two legs, two arms, and a vertical spine either. For all we know, maybe they actually suckle those larvae. Or maybe they're a secondary sexual characteristic with no other function, like a male peacock's tail. Or hell, maybe they used to prey on humans and the appearance of human secondary sexual traits aided in luring them to their doom. :)--Osteoderm Jacket 17:58, 13 January 2012 (EST)
Spirit Tracks
Latest comment: 28 December 20092 comments2 people in discussion
I havent Completed Spirit Tracks, but the tunnel to underwater in the ocean realm resembles both river zoras, and the zoras helmets in TP. Somebody could add this, and the ruto crown as references to zoras in ST. Id do it, but im sticking to trivia for now. Nicktheslayer03:06, 28 December 2009 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Probably not. The likelihood of that is about the same as the Zora's name coming from the book entitled Go Gator and Muddy the Water, written by author Zora Neale Hurston. And I thought it was funny that you print screened that little multiple edit thing with Neo from my userpage. That was a joke too, btw =) — ciprianotalk06:48, 5 March 2010 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Bomb Ships
This was pointed out to me and I am still doing some research on it but the bomb ships from The Wind Waker have Zora emblems on them, or Zora like. I don't know if this is the river zora ships from their evolution into Geezard or something that I am just looking to far into but it may perhaps be worth some investigating Theif 1 01:41, 31 May 2011 (EDT)
You mean this ship? Where about are the Zora emblems (I'm assuming you mean the Zora Sapphire? I can't see any connection myself. Vuvuzela2010 12:15, 1 June 2011 (EDT)
I don't think it was the sapphire, but like I said I am still looking into any connection on it Theif 1 14:15, 1 June 2011 (EDT)
Emblem
Will you guys be adding the emblems for this and other tribes?KrytenKoro 14:24, 26 December 2011 (EST)
Pluralization
I notice the article is inconsistent about whether the plural of "Zora" is "Zoras" or "Zora" (like "sheep"). Do the games consistently use one of these? If they do, we should only use the plural the games use.--Osteoderm Jacket 18:14, 13 January 2012 (EST)
Zora Hall
Does Majora's Mask ever refer to Zora Hall as the Terminian Zora's home or was that just assumed?
It's possible they just live in the ocean/bay and happen to have a concert hall built there for concerts. None of the games have depicted them as having houses after all.
Gills and/or lungs?
Latest comment: 18 March 20131 comment1 person in discussion
While some Zora are never seen in water, King Zora from OoT, for example, other zora seem to be able to stay under water indefinitely and seem to be able to breathe water. examples of this are the Zora tunic from Ocarina of Time and Zora link from Majora's Mask. So are there any theories on gills/lungs floating around?
Holyderpface01:05, 18 March 2013 (UTC)Holy derpface, i just failed epically...Reply[reply]
Disambiguation? Or merge?
Latest comment: 4 December 20137 comments3 people in discussion
It's probably about time that both types of Zora were given equal status, given that Sea Zoras have not actually appeared in the series since Twilight Princess, while River Zoras make a prominent appearance in A Link Between Worlds, and were the original type of Zora. Given this, I think that this page should be moved to Sea Zora and replaced with a disambiguation page linking to one or the other.
Alternatively, and I don't really recommend this, but we merge the two pages. However, given how they appear in Oracle of Ages, this is probably a bad idea.
It's also possible that we distinguish them by using the term "Zora" for the monsters and "Zora Tribe" for the friendly variety, but this is probably a little awkward as well.
Also note that while not explicitly stated, there seems to be a direct connection between the two species of Zora implied in A Link Between Worlds, although this was also implied with King Zora in A Link to the Past. ※Fizzle (talk) 01:22, 4 December 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I think the River Zora should remain enemies until a new game, possibly one even throwing light on the subject, comes out. I'm not saying it's Nintendo's fault that they re-instated them in ALBW, but if they hadn't would we be having this convo? They were confirmed to be a feral offshoot or alternative species by the same moniker by Phantom Hourglass and Spirit Tracks. Which, while I would dispute their canonocity over various topics (such as retconning the postman twice; from Rito to a rabbit with wings to a human), this is not one I could bite on because Four Swords Adventures was already discriminating between Blue Zora and the green "monsters" that were established zora before. Ones I would readily call Geozards had ALBW not entered the equation.
How about River Zora get updated to "Zora monster" and just keep it the way it is with the distinction their hostile versus hospitable status varies between time periods. Some eras the congenial number being the majority, and other eras they're relegated to defectors (LA & FSA). That would immediately cover every game they're in without conflict. If there is, I would like to hear it.
Servantofgod (talk) 02:27, 4 December 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
What wasn't clear about it? :V And yes, I mean they retconned the whole post service twice. Like they stepped over the King of Hyrule's farewell wishes by refounding Hyrule. Anyway, the point is if they didn't know what they were doing. They changed him to a human because they were introducing rabbits in the game, and couldn't have the postman as a confusing factor.Servantofgod (talk) 02:50, 4 December 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Uh, I'm not sure I follow. And to be honest I've wanted to do this for awhile, it's nothing to do with ALBW, that just happens to help my cause since it shows River Zoras are still just as relevant as the standard variety. River Zoras are not called River Zoras in most games, they're just called Zoras. They're not really a feral offshoot so much as a different interpretation of the same being. They're also much more common in the series as a whole. I'm simply arguing that both Zoras get equal status, because right now since the Zora page covers just Sea Zoras, it's giving them priority.
As for Geozards, they're arguably a different thing altogether, despite their similarity to Zoras I'm not sure if they're genuinely related to them.
It is possible, even probable I was just wrong. I assumed that the Geozards were in fact Zora Warriors; but checking the source for that as
being the awful Prima Guide I desist from this line of debate! I guess I just never shook that instance of mislocalization.
I'm glad to be on the same page now and support the motion for equal representation of the Zora peoples.
All in favor?
Servantofgod (talk) 22:05, 4 December 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Yes, just to confirm that they have a different name in Japan, and while they were called Zora Warriors in the Phantom Hourglass guide, they were renamed to Geozard in the Spirit Tracks guide to correct this misleading localization. Anyway, I'll probably move this page to Sea Zora soon unless someone majorly objects to the idea, and replace Zora with a disambiguation page. ※Fizzle (talk) 22:35, 4 December 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
