User talk:Dermotmacflann: Difference between revisions
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:As for exact pronunciations of words, trying to reach an exact complete phonetic pronunciation accounting for speaker and accent is not necessarily a good idea. The English language comes in all sorts of different accents, each with their own pronunciation quirks. While "Nabooru" is presumed to be a word in some stage of the Gerudo language, the dialogue of the English version of {{BotW}} is (not surprisingly) in English, so a "broad transcription" of sounds in English is used for the pronunciation. That means {{IPA|r}} is transcribed even where it would be silent for British or Australian speakers, and {{IPA|ɔːr}} (as in <small>NORTH</small>) and {{IPA|ɔər}} (as in <small>FORCE</small>) are distinguished, and so forth. When speaking of broad transcriptions of English vowels, there are various opinions on the wisest way to go about it, but the prevailing wisdom is to treat vowels as part of a "[[wikipedia:lexical set|lexical set]]," which makes it relatively easy to discuss different vowels and what makes them different. Now, what are the vowels in "Nabooru"? On inspection, it sounds like the <small>COMMA</small> vowel, then either the <small>NORTH</small> or <small>FORCE</small> vowel, then the <small>GOOSE</small> vowel. The most likely alternative to the <small>COMMA</small> vowel for the first syllable is probably the <small>PALM</small> vowel, but I would say it's not this vowel because Urbosa pronounces it too lax such that it becomes a "[[wikipedia:Stress and vowel reduction in English|weak vowel]]." And most (but not all) accents today pronounce the <small>NORTH</small> and <small>FORCE</small> vowels the same way ({{IPA|ɔɹ}} in North America, {{IPA|ɔː(ɹ)}} in England), but usually, the rule in determining which is which is by context—is the "o" understood to be "long" or "short" (even if the pronunciation difference has been lost)? With such a test, the "o" in "for" is a "short" "o", while the "o" in "fore" or "four" is a "long" "o", and some accents still distinguish this (like {{IPA|fɒr}} vs. {{IPA|foːr}} in Ireland) even if many of us no longer do. I'm going with the general assumption that the "oor" in "Nabooru" is a <small>FORCE</small> vowel (with "long" "o"). For historic reasons, largely concerned with reflecting meta-differences between North America and Britain, the <small>NORTH</small> vowel is broadly transcribed {{IPA|ɔːr}} while the <small>FORCE</small> vowel is broadly transcribed {{IPA|ɔər}}. Using a more exacting pronunciation for Gerudo language words would be a fool's errand as long as the ''phonology'' of the fictional Gerudo language itself is not well defined and documented such that we can cite it as a reference—we can only really rely on how the words filter into broad English phonotactics. - [[User:Dermotmacflann|Dermotmacflann]] ([[User talk:Dermotmacflann|talk]]) 23:39, 14 April 2017 (UTC) | :As for exact pronunciations of words, trying to reach an exact complete phonetic pronunciation accounting for speaker and accent is not necessarily a good idea. The English language comes in all sorts of different accents, each with their own pronunciation quirks. While "Nabooru" is presumed to be a word in some stage of the Gerudo language, the dialogue of the English version of {{BotW}} is (not surprisingly) in English, so a "broad transcription" of sounds in English is used for the pronunciation. That means {{IPA|r}} is transcribed even where it would be silent for British or Australian speakers, and {{IPA|ɔːr}} (as in <small>NORTH</small>) and {{IPA|ɔər}} (as in <small>FORCE</small>) are distinguished, and so forth. When speaking of broad transcriptions of English vowels, there are various opinions on the wisest way to go about it, but the prevailing wisdom is to treat vowels as part of a "[[wikipedia:lexical set|lexical set]]," which makes it relatively easy to discuss different vowels and what makes them different. Now, what are the vowels in "Nabooru"? On inspection, it sounds like the <small>COMMA</small> vowel, then either the <small>NORTH</small> or <small>FORCE</small> vowel, then the <small>GOOSE</small> vowel. The most likely alternative to the <small>COMMA</small> vowel for the first syllable is probably the <small>PALM</small> vowel, but I would say it's not this vowel because Urbosa pronounces it too lax such that it becomes a "[[wikipedia:Stress and vowel reduction in English|weak vowel]]." And most (but not all) accents today pronounce the <small>NORTH</small> and <small>FORCE</small> vowels the same way ({{IPA|ɔɹ}} in North America, {{IPA|ɔː(ɹ)}} in England), but usually, the rule in determining which is which is by context—is the "o" understood to be "long" or "short" (even if the pronunciation difference has been lost)? With such a test, the "o" in "for" is a "short" "o", while the "o" in "fore" or "four" is a "long" "o", and some accents still distinguish this (like {{IPA|fɒr}} vs. {{IPA|foːr}} in Ireland) even if many of us no longer do. I'm going with the general assumption that the "oor" in "Nabooru" is a <small>FORCE</small> vowel (with "long" "o"). For historic reasons, largely concerned with reflecting meta-differences between North America and Britain, the <small>NORTH</small> vowel is broadly transcribed {{IPA|ɔːr}} while the <small>FORCE</small> vowel is broadly transcribed {{IPA|ɔər}}. Using a more exacting pronunciation for Gerudo language words would be a fool's errand as long as the ''phonology'' of the fictional Gerudo language itself is not well defined and documented such that we can cite it as a reference—we can only really rely on how the words filter into broad English phonotactics. - [[User:Dermotmacflann|Dermotmacflann]] ([[User talk:Dermotmacflann|talk]]) 23:39, 14 April 2017 (UTC) | ||
:As for whether the "u" in Nabooru is a strong vowel or a week vowel, broad English transcriptions generally don't distinguish this in final vowels. {{IPA|i}} (<small>HAPPY</small>) vs. {{IPA|iː}} (<small>FLEECE</small>) ''are'' traditionally distinguished because they actually differ in some accents (Scotland in particular), but final {{IPA|u}} vs. {{IPA|uː}} aren't distinguished at the ends of words because practically no natively-spoken accent of English treats these as separate ''phonemes'' which can be assigned separate lexical set terms. So there's a <small>GOOSE</small> vowel, but no separate <small>HINDU</small> vowel, if that makes sense. A lax {{IPA|u}} ''can'' theoretically exist word internally, and I like to non-standardly call this the <small>MINUET</small> vowel ({{IPA|ˌmɪnjuˈɛt}}), which can have a lax realization, <span class="IPA">[ˌmɪnjʊˈɛt]</span>. But if you speak the vowel at the end of a word, in pause, it does not really differ from the tense version of the vowel. Some people to say <small>HAPPY</small> ({{IPA|ˈhæpi}}) more narrowly as <span class="IPA">[ˈhæpɪ]</span>, but how many people pronounce | :As for whether the "u" in Nabooru is a strong vowel or a week vowel, broad English transcriptions generally don't distinguish this in final vowels. {{IPA|i}} (<small>HAPPY</small>) vs. {{IPA|iː}} (<small>FLEECE</small>) ''are'' traditionally distinguished because they actually differ in some accents (Scotland in particular), but final {{IPA|u}} vs. {{IPA|uː}} aren't distinguished at the ends of words because practically no natively-spoken accent of English treats these as separate ''phonemes'' which can be assigned separate lexical set terms. So there's a <small>GOOSE</small> vowel, but no separate <small>HINDU</small> vowel, if that makes sense. A lax {{IPA|u}} ''can'' theoretically exist word internally, and I like to non-standardly call this the <small>MINUET</small> vowel ({{IPA|ˌmɪnjuˈɛt}}), which can have a lax realization, <span class="IPA">[ˌmɪnjʊˈɛt]</span>. But if you speak the vowel at the end of a word, in pause, it does not really differ from the tense version of the vowel. Some people to say <small>HAPPY</small> ({{IPA|ˈhæpi}}) more narrowly as <span class="IPA">[ˈhæpɪ]</span>, but how many people pronounce "Hindu" {{IPA|ˈhɪnduː}} more narrowly as <span class="IPA">[ˈhɪndʊ]}}? I'm going to guess hardly any native accent of English has this as a ''feature''. The meta-vowel {{IPA|i}} exists because some accents tense it to <span class="IPA">[iː]</span> while other accents lax it to <span class="IPA">[ɪ]</span> or even <span class="IPA">[e]</span> (again, Scotland), separately from {{IPA|iː}}, even at the ends of words. The same can't really be said of {{IPA|u}} vs. {{IPA|uː}} at the ends of words. - [[User:Dermotmacflann|Dermotmacflann]] ([[User talk:Dermotmacflann|talk]]) 00:03, 15 April 2017 (UTC) | ||