Talk:Sage: Difference between revisions
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I think the page should be arranged according to the timeline. What do you think? [[User:Zeldafan1982|Zeldafan1982]] 15:40, 15 September 2012 (EDT) | I think the page should be arranged according to the timeline. What do you think? [[User:Zeldafan1982|Zeldafan1982]] 15:40, 15 September 2012 (EDT) | ||
:To be honest, I think the page needs splitting. It's HUGE. It's covering at least four different sets of Sages, some of which have little relation with each other. Pretty over the top. Sure, we should have a "Sage" page, but some of the groups of sages need their own individual pages. Page is WAY too big. {{:User: | :To be honest, I think the page needs splitting. It's HUGE. It's covering at least four different sets of Sages, some of which have little relation with each other. Pretty over the top. Sure, we should have a "Sage" page, but some of the groups of sages need their own individual pages. Page is WAY too big. {{:User:Fizzle8094/sig}} 16:34, 15 September 2012 (EDT) | ||
==The Third Sage== | ==The Third Sage== | ||
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::Also, I believe a certain line by Sahasrahla is important. He notes that the descendants Yuga are after is the descendants of the ORIGINAL Seven Sages. The fact that he describes them this way (if I remember correctly) implies that they are not actually related to the Seven Sages from the Imprisoning War (the Seven Wise Men) but are instead the descendants of the Sages from Ocarina of Time (Hyrule Historia implies that these are not the same Sages). This would explain why one of them is a Zora queen, for example, while the Maidens were all Hylian. Of course, if Princess Zelda was one of the Maidens and thus was related to the Seven Wise Men, and Zelda was also one of the Seven Sages, that doesn't remove the royal connection at all. However, there were likely to be numerous descendants, and while there are seven of them, they may of only been related to six of the Sages, while Zelda's line remained separate. So there's no requirement that one of them has a royal connection, necessarily, although that sort of fudges the idea of them being true descendants I suppose... Perhaps Impa is actually related to Zelda? | ::Also, I believe a certain line by Sahasrahla is important. He notes that the descendants Yuga are after is the descendants of the ORIGINAL Seven Sages. The fact that he describes them this way (if I remember correctly) implies that they are not actually related to the Seven Sages from the Imprisoning War (the Seven Wise Men) but are instead the descendants of the Sages from Ocarina of Time (Hyrule Historia implies that these are not the same Sages). This would explain why one of them is a Zora queen, for example, while the Maidens were all Hylian. Of course, if Princess Zelda was one of the Maidens and thus was related to the Seven Wise Men, and Zelda was also one of the Seven Sages, that doesn't remove the royal connection at all. However, there were likely to be numerous descendants, and while there are seven of them, they may of only been related to six of the Sages, while Zelda's line remained separate. So there's no requirement that one of them has a royal connection, necessarily, although that sort of fudges the idea of them being true descendants I suppose... Perhaps Impa is actually related to Zelda? | ||
::Also, while the legend does depict Seven Sages alongside Link and Zelda while there were only six Maidens and six Sages aside from her, it's possible that those are the Seven Sages of the Imprisoning War and are just put there for effect. They look identical to the ones previously depicted, rather than appearing as six maidens. That or Zelda is just depicted twice on the same mural. Or maybe it's a little intentionally annoying in-joke for the fans because Ravio is drawn over it in the end as if to imply that these murals are actually just depictions of events rather than what actually happened, so don't take them too seriously. {{:User: | ::Also, while the legend does depict Seven Sages alongside Link and Zelda while there were only six Maidens and six Sages aside from her, it's possible that those are the Seven Sages of the Imprisoning War and are just put there for effect. They look identical to the ones previously depicted, rather than appearing as six maidens. That or Zelda is just depicted twice on the same mural. Or maybe it's a little intentionally annoying in-joke for the fans because Ravio is drawn over it in the end as if to imply that these murals are actually just depictions of events rather than what actually happened, so don't take them too seriously. {{:User:Fizzle8094/sig}} 22:09, 3 December 2013 (UTC) | ||
:I know what you mean, and I wrote about it on my user page. Feel free to look at it if you want. --[[User:MegaTitan64|MegaTitan64]] ([[User talk:MegaTitan64|talk]]) 04:18, 26 December 2013 (UTC) | :I know what you mean, and I wrote about it on my user page. Feel free to look at it if you want. --[[User:MegaTitan64|MegaTitan64]] ([[User talk:MegaTitan64|talk]]) 04:18, 26 December 2013 (UTC) | ||
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And that's just for starters. These are distinct groups of people, and just because they often share a common name doesn't mean they're the same, and it'd be much easier to distinguish between which sages did what if they were on their own pages, in my opinion. | And that's just for starters. These are distinct groups of people, and just because they often share a common name doesn't mean they're the same, and it'd be much easier to distinguish between which sages did what if they were on their own pages, in my opinion. | ||
As for the page itself, a disambiguation page would work I suspect, but not sure. Any thoughts? {{:User: | As for the page itself, a disambiguation page would work I suspect, but not sure. Any thoughts? {{:User:Fizzle8094/sig}} 22:31, 3 December 2013 (UTC) | ||
::I'm in favor of splitting this article. I'm less sure if we need to keep the actual "sage" article (with a basic description of what a sage is/does with "full article" links for the different groups) or if a disambiguation page would work better. However, I'm leaning towards keeping the "sage" article with the basics. A disambiguation page seems like it may leave out too much information. There are some key similarities between all of the sages, and I think it should be noted. | ::I'm in favor of splitting this article. I'm less sure if we need to keep the actual "sage" article (with a basic description of what a sage is/does with "full article" links for the different groups) or if a disambiguation page would work better. However, I'm leaning towards keeping the "sage" article with the basics. A disambiguation page seems like it may leave out too much information. There are some key similarities between all of the sages, and I think it should be noted. | ||
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:::This also has the happy side effect of essentially separating them via timeline, which wasn't intended but seems to work nicely. | :::This also has the happy side effect of essentially separating them via timeline, which wasn't intended but seems to work nicely. | ||
:::I think a lot of consternation stems from the confusion over whether the Sages from Ocarina of Time are the Seven Sages in ALttP's backstory. Hyrule Historia seems to imply that these are different sages however, as it states that "many years later" the Seven Sages were asked by the King of Hyrule (who was presumably dead at the end of Ocarina of Time, so at LEAST a generation later, unless he somehow survived and hid somewhere) to seal the Sacred Realm. I would assume therefore that it is a different set of Seven Sages, but this is unclear. {{:User: | :::I think a lot of consternation stems from the confusion over whether the Sages from Ocarina of Time are the Seven Sages in ALttP's backstory. Hyrule Historia seems to imply that these are different sages however, as it states that "many years later" the Seven Sages were asked by the King of Hyrule (who was presumably dead at the end of Ocarina of Time, so at LEAST a generation later, unless he somehow survived and hid somewhere) to seal the Sacred Realm. I would assume therefore that it is a different set of Seven Sages, but this is unclear. {{:User:Fizzle8094/sig}} 15:19, 4 December 2013 (UTC) | ||
:::The Maidens are not called Sages, true, but the entire gist of the concept is that they are inheritors of that power. Separating them would make less sense than separating the Zelda and Link articles, and would be round about as logical as separating the Hookshot and Longshot, or Master Sword and Tempered Sword. Hell, real-world countries change name all the time without transmogrifying into completely distinct entities. | :::The Maidens are not called Sages, true, but the entire gist of the concept is that they are inheritors of that power. Separating them would make less sense than separating the Zelda and Link articles, and would be round about as logical as separating the Hookshot and Longshot, or Master Sword and Tempered Sword. Hell, real-world countries change name all the time without transmogrifying into completely distinct entities. | ||
:::"nor is any relationship to them stated or implied" -- this is being deliberately naive, I feel. The game is a pretty straight reuse of ALttP concepts and characters, as is ALBW. | :::"nor is any relationship to them stated or implied" -- this is being deliberately naive, I feel. The game is a pretty straight reuse of ALttP concepts and characters, as is ALBW. | ||
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:::My point is that we simply ASSUME that all the Sages are related somehow, when very little actually confirms this outside of the two sets mentioned in ALBW. There's a lot of information crossing over that we are just assuming to mean that there is a direct connection when it could simply be a homage. If Hyrule Historia does not confirm that one group is connected to another, then we shouldn't assume they necessarily are. | :::My point is that we simply ASSUME that all the Sages are related somehow, when very little actually confirms this outside of the two sets mentioned in ALBW. There's a lot of information crossing over that we are just assuming to mean that there is a direct connection when it could simply be a homage. If Hyrule Historia does not confirm that one group is connected to another, then we shouldn't assume they necessarily are. | ||
:::As I say, the term "sage" just means "wise person". It's been used for many characters in the series who are NOT members of a "group" of sages, such as Sahasrahla (despite being a descendant of them), the Priest in ALttP, Anjean (who is a member of the Lokomo but not the Seven Sages) and others. That's why I don't really like using this one page to represent multiple distinct groups of people. Another example would be the Knights of Hyrule, which is a phrase used specifically for two separate clans of knight, but doesn't represent EVERY knight in Hyrule. {{:User: | :::As I say, the term "sage" just means "wise person". It's been used for many characters in the series who are NOT members of a "group" of sages, such as Sahasrahla (despite being a descendant of them), the Priest in ALttP, Anjean (who is a member of the Lokomo but not the Seven Sages) and others. That's why I don't really like using this one page to represent multiple distinct groups of people. Another example would be the Knights of Hyrule, which is a phrase used specifically for two separate clans of knight, but doesn't represent EVERY knight in Hyrule. {{:User:Fizzle8094/sig}} 01:14, 5 December 2013 (UTC) | ||
::I didn't call ''you'' naive, I called the claim deliberately naive...and it is. The FSA Maidens are very obviously supposed to be the same basic characters as the ALttP Maidens; they even include Zelda with them. FSA, like ALBW, is in essence an ALttP remake with modified graphics and mechanics. You're deliberately ignoring the obvious reuse of these characters for some reason, I don't know why. | ::I didn't call ''you'' naive, I called the claim deliberately naive...and it is. The FSA Maidens are very obviously supposed to be the same basic characters as the ALttP Maidens; they even include Zelda with them. FSA, like ALBW, is in essence an ALttP remake with modified graphics and mechanics. You're deliberately ignoring the obvious reuse of these characters for some reason, I don't know why. | ||
:"but those in The Wind Waker represent different elements entirely" | :"but those in The Wind Waker represent different elements entirely" | ||
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:::I could handle both the Ocarina of Time Sages and the Seven Sages of ALttP and ALBW being on the same page, because there are clear connections, but not the Sages in Twilight Princess, nor the maidens. | :::I could handle both the Ocarina of Time Sages and the Seven Sages of ALttP and ALBW being on the same page, because there are clear connections, but not the Sages in Twilight Princess, nor the maidens. | ||
:::Basically, my argument is this: we need a page for the Seven Sages. We don't have one right now. Which groups of Sages are actually the Seven Sages? Only three groups actually fit the criteria of ever being called Sages or there ever being seven of them. Thus the OoT Sages, the ALttP Sages and the ALBW Sages are the only Seven Sages available. As for the rest, they can be on another page, or different pages. But I really think we need a page for the Seven Sages, specifically the Seven Sages. {{:User: | :::Basically, my argument is this: we need a page for the Seven Sages. We don't have one right now. Which groups of Sages are actually the Seven Sages? Only three groups actually fit the criteria of ever being called Sages or there ever being seven of them. Thus the OoT Sages, the ALttP Sages and the ALBW Sages are the only Seven Sages available. As for the rest, they can be on another page, or different pages. But I really think we need a page for the Seven Sages, specifically the Seven Sages. {{:User:Fizzle8094/sig}} 04:10, 6 December 2013 (UTC) | ||
::::I agree that the Maidens are not called "the Seven Sages". However, what I'm saying is that basically the only important part of their group unity, as well as the TP sages, is that they share group unity with the Seven (and much, much more than the ALBW Sages, who are just an epic crapshoot of continuity on every level, regardless of their name). I would be fine with them being separate sections on a "Seven Sages and Maidens" page, but by splitting them, I strongly feel that we would be erasing a lot of pertinent information for the readers. | ::::I agree that the Maidens are not called "the Seven Sages". However, what I'm saying is that basically the only important part of their group unity, as well as the TP sages, is that they share group unity with the Seven (and much, much more than the ALBW Sages, who are just an epic crapshoot of continuity on every level, regardless of their name). I would be fine with them being separate sections on a "Seven Sages and Maidens" page, but by splitting them, I strongly feel that we would be erasing a lot of pertinent information for the readers. | ||
::::That's my final statement, I guess, do as thou wilt.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] ([[User talk:KrytenKoro|talk]]) 17:47, 7 December 2013 (UTC) | ::::That's my final statement, I guess, do as thou wilt.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] ([[User talk:KrytenKoro|talk]]) 17:47, 7 December 2013 (UTC) | ||
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:::::The Seven Sages page would cover ALttP, OoT and ALBW (and perhaps make sense of the "crapshoot" as you say, though given the entire series is ripe with continuity errors that's probably wishful thinking...). It would also mention the Maidens and the Twilight Princess Sages but they will have their own pages. The Twilight Princess Sages in particular are confusing as they are also called the Ancient Sages. | :::::The Seven Sages page would cover ALttP, OoT and ALBW (and perhaps make sense of the "crapshoot" as you say, though given the entire series is ripe with continuity errors that's probably wishful thinking...). It would also mention the Maidens and the Twilight Princess Sages but they will have their own pages. The Twilight Princess Sages in particular are confusing as they are also called the Ancient Sages. | ||
:::::I am going to go ahead and essentially make the Seven Sages page, but I will not split anything from this page until I'm done and people are happy with it. {{:User: | :::::I am going to go ahead and essentially make the Seven Sages page, but I will not split anything from this page until I'm done and people are happy with it. {{:User:Fizzle8094/sig}} 18:05, 11 December 2013 (UTC) | ||
:::::::I guess I will say one more thing: I don't get why the Ancient Sages of TP aren't being interpreted as the same Ancient Sages from OoT, given that in the TP timeline, Ganon didn't enter the Sacred Realm and take over Hyrule, necessitating them to be replaced. I don't have quotes on hand, but isn't it indicated in OoT that he killed the original sages, or something? In any case, the fact that they're both called Ancient Sages, and that Rauru has no reason to have not been a sage in TP, make me think they're the same group.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] ([[User talk:KrytenKoro|talk]]) 21:42, 11 December 2013 (UTC) | :::::::I guess I will say one more thing: I don't get why the Ancient Sages of TP aren't being interpreted as the same Ancient Sages from OoT, given that in the TP timeline, Ganon didn't enter the Sacred Realm and take over Hyrule, necessitating them to be replaced. I don't have quotes on hand, but isn't it indicated in OoT that he killed the original sages, or something? In any case, the fact that they're both called Ancient Sages, and that Rauru has no reason to have not been a sage in TP, make me think they're the same group.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] ([[User talk:KrytenKoro|talk]]) 21:42, 11 December 2013 (UTC) | ||
::::::::Frankly, those Sages are confusing to me. Brawl lists them simply as "Sages", and no quotes in the game indicate that they are THE "ancient Sages", just that they guarded the Mirror of Twilight since "ancient times". They share the elements of the Six Sages but show no other indication of being related to them, aside from an early version of them looking like Rauru (this early concept was dropped, however, perhaps because they didn't want people to think this). Hyrule Historia states very little about them, but does say the phrase "Ancient Sages", but at the same time it doesn't mention anyone else was involved in the creation of the Temple of Time other than Rauru, so whether this was intended to link to that one quote from OoT is a bit of a stretch, because it also states that their true nature is unknown and refers to them as "the Sages of this era". Skyward Sword also brings into question the idea that any Sages were involved in the forging of the Master Sword. | ::::::::Frankly, those Sages are confusing to me. Brawl lists them simply as "Sages", and no quotes in the game indicate that they are THE "ancient Sages", just that they guarded the Mirror of Twilight since "ancient times". They share the elements of the Six Sages but show no other indication of being related to them, aside from an early version of them looking like Rauru (this early concept was dropped, however, perhaps because they didn't want people to think this). Hyrule Historia states very little about them, but does say the phrase "Ancient Sages", but at the same time it doesn't mention anyone else was involved in the creation of the Temple of Time other than Rauru, so whether this was intended to link to that one quote from OoT is a bit of a stretch, because it also states that their true nature is unknown and refers to them as "the Sages of this era". Skyward Sword also brings into question the idea that any Sages were involved in the forging of the Master Sword. | ||
::::::::While it is possible, nay, even potentially quite likely that they are the same Sages that made the Temple of Time, it is also entirely unknown whether this is the case or not. They may be a separate group of Sages, perhaps an intermediate group that existed when the Twili were sealed and have since remained at the Arbiter's Grounds. It's also unclear as to why there are only six of them, or if one of them is Rauru then does he protect both the Mirror of Twilight and the Chamber of Sages at the same time? Can he even do this? | ::::::::While it is possible, nay, even potentially quite likely that they are the same Sages that made the Temple of Time, it is also entirely unknown whether this is the case or not. They may be a separate group of Sages, perhaps an intermediate group that existed when the Twili were sealed and have since remained at the Arbiter's Grounds. It's also unclear as to why there are only six of them, or if one of them is Rauru then does he protect both the Mirror of Twilight and the Chamber of Sages at the same time? Can he even do this? | ||
::::::::As for Ganondorf killing the Sages, that was in Wind Waker, I don't believe there are any quotes to that effect in Ocarina of Time. | ::::::::As for Ganondorf killing the Sages, that was in Wind Waker, I don't believe there are any quotes to that effect in Ocarina of Time. | ||
::::::::I think your guess is right and potentially likely, but the issue is we simply don't know for sure. Obviously we would mention the theory that they are the same ones. I think information about the "ancient Sages" mentioned in OoT and TP should probably be discussed on their page. {{:User: | ::::::::I think your guess is right and potentially likely, but the issue is we simply don't know for sure. Obviously we would mention the theory that they are the same ones. I think information about the "ancient Sages" mentioned in OoT and TP should probably be discussed on their page. {{:User:Fizzle8094/sig}} 23:39, 11 December 2013 (UTC) | ||
:::That clears up a lot of confusion for me, then. Yeah, I have no further complaints, sorry for all the friction on this one.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] ([[User talk:KrytenKoro|talk]]) 22:56, 12 December 2013 (UTC) | :::That clears up a lot of confusion for me, then. Yeah, I have no further complaints, sorry for all the friction on this one.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] ([[User talk:KrytenKoro|talk]]) 22:56, 12 December 2013 (UTC) | ||
::::Just a small update: looking at p 179 of the Historia, for the Sages, "Design sketches seen at right were originally concept art for Rauru. Though his face is hidden behind a mask, his body retains vestiges of the Sage." This seems to pretty clearly indicate that Rauru is intended to be one of the six Ancient Sages of Twilight Princess, especially since the scene introducing them is set during the Hero of Time's childhood when Ganondorf was first being executed (and so before five of the Sages got cycled out).[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] ([[User talk:KrytenKoro|talk]]) 06:27, 30 December 2013 (UTC) | ::::Just a small update: looking at p 179 of the Historia, for the Sages, "Design sketches seen at right were originally concept art for Rauru. Though his face is hidden behind a mask, his body retains vestiges of the Sage." This seems to pretty clearly indicate that Rauru is intended to be one of the six Ancient Sages of Twilight Princess, especially since the scene introducing them is set during the Hero of Time's childhood when Ganondorf was first being executed (and so before five of the Sages got cycled out).[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] ([[User talk:KrytenKoro|talk]]) 06:27, 30 December 2013 (UTC) | ||
:::::I think I mentioned this earlier. While true, ALL the six sages would have the same Rauru-like appearance, so it may simply be a reference, and not only that, but they did not use this design in the end, possibly for the very reason that they wanted to leave their true nature ambiguous. However, I agree that the TP Sages definitely have a connection to the "ancient Sages", but we know so little about the ancient Sages it's hard to say for sure. I want to put together a proper Seven Sages page and got halfway through it, but had to take a break over the holidays. I'll see if I can manage to finish it up soon. {{:User: | :::::I think I mentioned this earlier. While true, ALL the six sages would have the same Rauru-like appearance, so it may simply be a reference, and not only that, but they did not use this design in the end, possibly for the very reason that they wanted to leave their true nature ambiguous. However, I agree that the TP Sages definitely have a connection to the "ancient Sages", but we know so little about the ancient Sages it's hard to say for sure. I want to put together a proper Seven Sages page and got halfway through it, but had to take a break over the holidays. I'll see if I can manage to finish it up soon. {{:User:Fizzle8094/sig}} 01:53, 2 January 2014 (UTC) | ||
If you'll excuse me, I'd also like to help on the split of all the "Sevensages". Each of the group of Sages are indeed totally different characters, some have connections to Link's spirit, some related to Zelda, etc. I agree the pages should be split. Spoiler alert, I will start with the Seven Sages from {{ALBW}}... ;D --[[User:Prince Ludwig|Prince Ludwig]] ([[User talk:Prince Ludwig|talk]]) 15:37, 11 March 2014 (UTC) | If you'll excuse me, I'd also like to help on the split of all the "Sevensages". Each of the group of Sages are indeed totally different characters, some have connections to Link's spirit, some related to Zelda, etc. I agree the pages should be split. Spoiler alert, I will start with the Seven Sages from {{ALBW}}... ;D --[[User:Prince Ludwig|Prince Ludwig]] ([[User talk:Prince Ludwig|talk]]) 15:37, 11 March 2014 (UTC) | ||