Talk:Ancient Hero

Deletion

Hyrule Historia says (on page 118) that the Hero's Spirit lamented the fact that he was not remembered as a hero, therefore the ancient hero is not the Hero's Spirit/OoT Link. We don't know which Link the ancient hero is. Zeldafan1982 (talk) 20:28, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you're talking about. Page 118 of HH explicitly says that it is the Hero of Time who "lamented the fact that he was not remembered as a hero". Page 103 of Encyclopedia also affirms that it's the Hero of Time that is named the Hero's Spirit and that he did not "share his heroics with the world". Everything was correct prior to the recent edits to the page. TriforceTony (talk) 21:36, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

I think I see what you're referring to. Give me a bit to read through some resources. TriforceTony (talk) 21:45, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

I'm very sorry for the confusion here. I only just noticed the initial issue, which is that "ancient hero" doesn't fit Terminology conditions, so it's not even something that deserves a page or mention. However, I'm certain that it's correct in that the "ancient hero" that the characters in Twilight Princess are referring to is specifically the Hero of Time. I think we're splitting hairs here but being a hero and being remembered as a hero are different things. Everything from Ocarina of Time Link's history from (at the latest) around the time he went to Jabu-Jabu was rewritten, so all of his acts of heroism from that point onwards only happened for him. He lives in a timeline where none of that took place, and by having prevented Ganondorf's assault on Hyrule Castle, there wasn't an enemy to fight that would have him be remembered in the first place other than the solitary accomplishment of preventing Ganondorf from betraying the Kingdom and laying his hands on the Triforce.

The green tunic that is your garb
once belonged to the ancient hero
chosen by the gods...

— Faron

To understand why this line refers to the Hero of Time specifically I have to point out that the child timeline is founded upon a stable paradox. No other hero before the Hero of Time is "chosen by the gods" (Skyward Sword Link is Hylia's chosen hero, but that's not the same thing and they're very careful with their wording in that game to distinguish that as a separate matter) because this refers to the moment that Ganondorf touched the Triforce and it split apart. When this happened, the Golden Goddesses made the choice for who would inherit the remaining two pieces of the Triforce (E, p.13). This is the only incident where multiple gods chose Link for any given destiny and while the initial event technically no longer happens in the child timeline, he "was in possession of" the Triforce of Courage and thus the incomplete Triforce when he traveled back in time, this split the Triforce in that timeline as well. Though the initial act of Link being chosen no longer happens, it technically still happens regardless, which is why the Light Spirits refer to him euphemistically as the hero chosen by the gods. By being in possession of the impartial Triforce, he is one of the three chosen wielders of it. As no divine choices like this are made for the heroes in The Minish Cap or Four Swords and "Hylia's chosen hero" is a separate concept (also representing a choice made by only one deity), it only refers to the Hero of Time. TriforceTony (talk) 22:32, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

I don't think that the goddesses decide at the point where the split of the Triforce occurs, which person will take a Triforce piece. If that was the case then, in the Child Timeline, they decided that Ganondorf should take the Triforce of Power.

The "chosen by the gods" refers to Link being the one chosen to fight the villain(s), regardless of whether he has the Triforce of Courage of not. Encyclopedia on page 18 says that Link is chosen by the goddesses to fight evil.

In Twilight Princess, if by "ancient hero" the people refer to the Link from Ocarina of Time, then why the Hero's Spirit thinks (according to Hyrule Historia) that he was not remembered as a hero? Zeldafan1982 (talk) 23:36, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

Might be worth looking at the specific Japanese line that the shade uses, which I can take a whack at if someone can provide it. As far as the reference to the ancient hero, are we quite certain that's referring to a specific Link at all, and not just the ancient, enduring spirit of the hero?

I'd also like the "green tunic" line about the ancient hero, if I could -- OoT wouldn't be considered ancient relative to TP, it's like a generation, maybe two at most. I'd like to confirm that the Japanese text uses "ancient" rather than something more restrained, like "old".{{SUBST:KrytenKoroSig}} 15:57, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

TP occurs centuries after OoT: link. Zeldafan1982 (talk) 19:26, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

Well, that's nonsensical of the wiki to claim. "百数年" does not mean "several hundred years", that's a very false claim that the wiki needs to fix immediately.{{SUBST:KrytenKoroSig}} 22:08, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

I don't know Japanese so I didn't know that. Still, here is a quote from Hyrule Historia (page 114): "The peace that had reigned in the Light World for hundreds of years was broken by Zant’s army of Shadow Beasts." There was the Hyrulean Civil War that ended a few years before OoT and hundreds of years later the events of TP occur. Zeldafan1982 (talk) 23:13, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

looks like they're contradicting themselves, then. Narratively, it doesn't make a ton of sense for it to be such a long amount of time, as the game implies Ganon empowers zant shortly after being cast into the mirror.{{SUBST:KrytenKoroSig}} 13:47, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

Fwiw, p179 outright identified the ancient shade as "Ancient Hero", which I think solves our main discussion.{{SUBST:KrytenKoroSig}} 13:47, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

Nice find. I don't understand though. According to Hyrule Historia the Hero's Spirit lamented the fact that he was not remembered as a hero, so he can't be the ancient hero, as the ancient hero is not forgotten, the people speak about him. There is a contradiction, in my view. Zeldafan1982 (talk) 15:51, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

Well, the gods know about things that are obscure or secret, so maybe it meant that he's sad he's not famous. Either way, the HH blip should solve the issue.{{SUBST:KrytenKoroSig}} 19:17, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

Something that crossed my mind. It is possible that when TP came out the ancient hero was meant to be the OoT Link, but this was retconned with Hyrule Historia. Originally (according to TP) the Hero's Spirit lamented the fact that he "could not convey the lessons of that life to those that came after". Hyrule Historia though says that he lamented the fact that we was not remembered as a hero. I think it would be best if the "Ancient Hero" doesn't redirect to "Hero's Spirit". Zeldafan1982 (talk) 21:08, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

The Historia itself explicitly uses "Ancient Hero" to refer to the Hero's Shade, and also explicitly says he is OoT Link.{{SUBST:KrytenKoroSig}} 17:03, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

Indeed. This concept art though was created when the TP was made and not when HH came out. What I'm saying is that there is possibly a retcon. Zeldafan1982 (talk) 18:11, 15 March 2022 (UTC)