Talk:Zelda Timeline

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Include Epilogue

In HH, Each Timeline branch has an Epilogue which hints at the future of this timeline, i think they should be included

Adult Timeline (WW-PH-ST): When old kingdom was destroyed, Hyrule walked a new path in the world carried by the wind. With only a few remnants of the Lineage of the Goddess left, what will happen to the new generation? From now on, a new history will be spun.

Child Timeline (MC-TP-FSA): The Sorcerer Vaati was swept up in the endless reincarnation cycle of Ganondorf the thief. The question of whether or not the Light World can escape the threat of darkness remains. There may again come a time when the Four Sword is necessary.

Downfall Timeline (aLttP-OoX-LA-LoZ-AoL): The power of the gods had been restored to Hyrule Kingdom through the courage of a young boy. Did generations pass, full of peace and the light of prosperity? Or did the curtains open to an age of darkness where people sought and contested each other for power? The future of this timeline has yet to unravel. Hyrule hero 03:54, 8 August 2012 (EDT)

The Split of the Timelines / Fourth Timeline Theories

For a long, I had been thinking about the Downfall Timeline split. The Downfall Timeline is like the Child Timeline, at the same time, it was also the adult era of the Hero of Time. By looking at the Zelda timeline from Hyrule Historia, I had noticed the defeat of the Hero of Time was never the cause of the split of the timeline at all. It occurred once Link pull the Master Sword from its Pedestal of Time. The adventure of the Hero of Time in the alternate Adult Timeline was really different, as the Sacred Realm nor Hyrule did not turned into evil worlds like the successful Adult Timeline already did. Probably because Link did not slept and was awake. Surely Ganon wouldn't do anything because the hero was there.

Directly after Link turned eighteen, Ganon kidnapped Zelda and Link went after him. At the final battle, Link failed to defeat Ganon and he was able to extract the Triforce of Courage and Wisdom from Link and Zelda. So, the princess and her people sealed the Evil Incarnation of Darkness along with the Triforce within the Sacred Realm. Zelda and those people were the Seven Sages (they aren't Ruto, Darunia, Saria, Impa, Nabooru, nor Rauru). There would be a theory, the Hero of Time (it wasn't confirmed that he was killed) or the implied Sage of Time used the Ocarina of Time to perform the Song of Time so the Goddess of Time would create another timeline in which the hero would save Hyrule from its terrible future and the young boy would learn about his destinies exactly like it happened in Ocarina of Time, which would lead the Hero of Time to defeat Ganon in his adult era at the ending of Ocarina of Time, and being able to find a true future for his childhood with the help of the Goddess of Time in his child era in Majora's Mask.

Surely the Goddess of Time was responsible for the splits and the allowance of Link looking for a great future for the Adult Timeline in Ocarina of Time and especially for the Child Timeline in Majora's Mask too, since the Lanayru Province's Temple of Time, the Song of Time and time itself are somehow connected to the Goddess of Time.

The Terminan Apocalypse is depicted to be the unsuccessful ending of Majora's Mask in an alternate Child Timeline, just like the Imprisoning War is an event from an alternate Adult Timeline. It would be possible to have a fourth timeline after Majora's Mask in which the Hero of Time failed to save Termina from the Skull Kid and the Moon, which would surely have effect on Hyrule as well.

What do you think of those theories?--Prince Ludwig 15:50, 11 August 2012 (EDT)

Interesting. You're posing a completely unique theory, and it is easily justifiable with events from the series.

I was especially intrigued when you mentioned the Sages. In A Link to the Past, you are given a backstory that appears quite similar to that which you have described. The Zelda of ALttP is a descendant of one of the Sages, as are the other maidens who later become contained within the crystals in the Dark World. Until reading this, I had never thought that the Sages in Ocarina of Time could not possibly be the same as those mentioned in the backstory, because those sages are human, as are their descendants.

If anything, all I want is for Nintendo to give further information so we can solve these mysteries and stop speculating. Despite the views expressed in that last sentence, I find your ideas remarkable. Kyro-Dizzy

Thanks. For a second, I thought I said nonsensical stuff. Because as said after Link failed to defeat Ganondorf, Zelda and the people of Hyrule sealed the king of thieves within the corrupted Sacred Realm, and those guys, who possess magical abilities (like most Hylians originally have), would become officially the Seven Sages/Seven Wise Men. Hey, that would also reveal why Volvagia is still alive in The Adventure of Link since the Hero of Time wouldn't fight Volvagia in the Downfall Timeline.--Prince Ludwig 23:11, 11 August 2012 (EDT)

Upon further reflection, it's possible that there is not just three, as you pointed out. However, I have considered the possibility that there is even more than four. Most of Link's trips through time involved a change in the world, however small. It's possible that even grabbing a Rupee could add another timeline, though that's rather drastic. Any number of Link's actions could split the timeline even further. Ignoring Ocarina of Time, there are other games that this idea can be applied to, such as Skyward Sword, to name but one, with the many paradoxes created by the use of the Gate of Time. Kyro-Dizzy 00:13, 13 August 2012 (EDT)

I just hope that that "further information" is given through games more than anything else. User:NorskTW/sig 10:09, 12 August 2012 (EDT)

I don't see why not. The canon is established in the games. The manga and even the animated series typically just find a way to fill plot holes presented in the games. Some things are added in here and there, such as the different copies of Link having split personalities and Vaati going back on his wrongdoings and making amends for them. The games are the first source of accurate information. The only problem is when the stories overlap, but that's mainly because of the passing of time weathering the records of the past. Kyro-Dizzy

This discussion isn't really relevant to the article. Please try to understand this is not the place for general timeline theorizing. Any further discussion should concern the addition or the improvement of article content. Thank you! — Hylian King ^[*] 07:59, 13 August 2012 (EDT)

Canonicity of Hyrule Historia

I've noticed that this site and others are treating Hyrule Historia as 100% factual. I know it's an official Nintendo document, but how canonical is the information really? For one thing, there's a major error in the placement of the Oracle games that doesn't match in-game information. For another, why is one of the timeline splits caused by something that doesn't officially happen in the story? (Or to put it another way, why isn't a timeline split caused by Link's defeat in EVERY game?) I believe the information is definitely worth noting, but it should be treated as no more legitimate than any other timeline theory, i.e., adding a Theory tag perhaps. Wicky1489 23:47, 22 August 2012 (EDT)

If it's not canonical, then what do you expect? According to you, what should the timeline be like?--Prince Ludwig 03:53, 23 August 2012 (EDT)

Yes, it's effectively Nintendo's own statement on the timeline. How is it not canon? What would it take for it to be canon? Take into account that Hyrule Historia comes with a disclaimer; Aonuma himself states that there ARE inconsistencies, but that these are inevitable and unavoidable as they reinvent the series with each new entry.

The third timeline is, arguably, a bit of a cop-out, sure. But it's what they've decided to do and is presumably what they are sticking with for the foreseeable future. They effectively already contradicted themselves by releasing The Wind Waker and Twilight Princess, giving A Link to the Past nowhere to go (basically, it's their own fault for confusing the timeline in the first place). Rather than retcon it to a different place in the timeline, they simply added a third ending to Ocarina, so it could remain as it's intended sequel.

The idea that it's no more legitimate than any other timeline theory is laughable. Of course it's more legitimate! How could it not be? Of course, that doesn't necessarily make it the best timeline imaginable, but it is canon. User:Fizzle/sig 09:44, 23 August 2012 (EDT)

The Timeline is really understandable since it's the official one! I've got no problems with it since it makes so much sense! :) what only bugs me is that Hyrule Historia forgot to add that at the very end Link (Twilight Princess) parted away with Epona (not staying in Ordon Village. Check here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jgp8K9GiZ74 --Isamisa 17:22, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

Downsizing

After reading the discussion over at Hyrule Castle about over-sized articles, I've been considering ways to downsize this one. One solution would be to split the four timelines (Unified, Downfall, Child and Adult) into their own separate sub-pages (i.e. "Zelda Timeline/Adult Timeline"), or even full pages (i.e. just "Adult Timeline"). The summary paragraphs (which contain details on the games that occur in each timeline) beneath the current headings could remain on this page, while the rest of the information could be moved. My only concern with this would be that the name "Downfall Timeline" is fan-created, which is fine by me, but may be a problem for people who think this would make the wiki seem unprofessional.

Another, albeit more complex, solution would be to make separate pages for each of the so-called "Eras". Although some, such as "The Force Era", would probably be fine as separate pages, others, such as "The Era of Prosperity", would most likely end up as stubs. This may change as we gain more knowledge with the English release of Hyrule Historia, but for now there's not much we can do. Personally, I prefer the former idea, as it would be simpler, and would keep most of the information in the same place. Anyway, these are just a couple of ideas, and if anybody else has any I'd like to hear them. Dannyboy601^Talk 17:59, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

I'm kind of on the opinion that this is one article for which expecting a small article is just expecting too much. This article is always destined to be one of the largest articles on the wiki. We could seperate the four timelines into four different pages but that might make things more confusing, rather than less so. Also, the Downfall Timeline thing already bugs me as it is. Gametrailers probably had it best with their "Fallen Hero" (I think that was it) title. That way all three timelines are named after the state of Link at the end of OoT. Not to go too off topic, but would anyone actually be opposed to it being named this way? I was thinking of renaming it thusly if nobody was actively against that.

Aside from that, with the English release of HH nearing, I think we should just wait and see. Personally I'm not against having pages for each era, but we'd still need a page like this to cover it all. User:Fizzle/sig 21:30, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

I do think this page can be cut down, but in a different way. Meaning no offense to those who helped put together the new timeline page on such short notice, ever since HH was released, I feel like the quality of writing of this article has been diminished quite a bit. The "Chronology of the Legend of Zelda Series" drags on and on and is quite frankly a chore to read. As opposed to being a retelling of Zelda from start to finish, I feel like this article should focus on the content that's unique to Hyrule Historia, namely the stuff that goes on between games. Personally, that's what interests me in this article. If I wanted a refresher on the games' plots, I'd just play through the games.

In short, I think this article can be effectively downsized with concise writing. That is, focusing on HH-exclusive content (i.e. the events in between games) and cutting down information from individual games' plots, as they're already covered on the game articles are mostly dead weight here. — Hylian King ^[*] 00:32, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

It might be beneficial to do what Hylian King says. The games' plots are summarized elsewhere, and so should be linked out. "Full Article Here" or something, and then continue on with the relevant information that should actually be in the article. --Xizor 00:37, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

I agree, a lot of pages can be dealt with just using better writing. This wiki is fantastic, but the writing is not always the best. On pages like this we need to get to the point concisely. User:Fizzle/sig 02:53, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

That's actually a really good idea, HK. We talk about the world's creation, then say "This precedes the events of SS." Then after that we go "After the events of SS, blah blah blahbitty blah." Gets to the point without being redundant. Plus, we can just link to the game pages, maybe even directly link to the story in each. Cuts down the article without getting stupid about it.User:Justin/sig 04:29, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, that definitely seems like the best idea. Cuts down on the unnecessary long summaries of the game's events and focuses more on what HH brought to the table. --Dany36 05:18, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Is it absolutely necessary to cut down the article? I think it is quite convenient to have summaries of each game on the same page. Some may prefer this rather than looking at (currently) 16 pages to find the relevant info described in detail. If there are severe technical problems with pages of this size though then ok :/ Zeldafan1982 20:38, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

I know how you feel, but there are technical problems which come with large articles like this. In addition to that, readers experience long loading times, which can be even worse for our mobile users, and if I recall correctly, they make up somewhere between 20-30% of our readers.User:Justin/sig 06:10, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

If the article is to be cut down then another possibility (similar to the one Dannyboy601 proposed) is to split it into two instead of four (the less pages the better!). The Unified and Downfall timelines could stay here while the other two can be moved to another page except for their leading paragraphs. This will cut down the page to about 65KB. Zeldafan1982 19:29, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

Hyrule Historia's Timeline - Official English Version

I suppose that people will wait until tomorrow (the official release date of January 29th, 2013) for complete confirmation of the 'translation', but here's an image of "Page 69" of Hyrule Historia (the official English version) that I found posted in a Kotaku article:

Official English Version of Page 69 - http://img.gawkerassets.com/img/18cmu1rb7r902jpg/original.jpg

SOURCE: http://kotaku.com/5979119/heres-your-first-look-inside-the-glorious-legend-of-zelda-hyrule-historia-collectors-edition

I can't believe the day's almost here after all of this waiting, to be honest. XD Fenyx4 17:13, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

Haha indeed. I'll go ahead and upload that image. Thanks for the link! — Hylian King ^[*] 01:48, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

Introductory section

After reading the official translation of page 68 (link), I'm not sure if there is supposed to be a Hyulean narrator. The translation that was done by Glitterberri (link)  :"…This is a tale that was passed down by humans such as yourselves…" seemed to me very reminiscent of what Fi says at the beginning of SS.. Still, it is clear that the history is told from an in-universe perspective and this should be mentioned. Also, since the stories change, it is also apparent that the account may not be entirely accurate, meaning that there is some room for individual interpretation.

About this section: "Because what is being spun is the flow of history right up until the end of time, we wish for you to touch true adventure with your own hands and try to ascertain it for yourself.", do you think it is equivalent to the official: "...you will be able to discover for yourself the real history of Hyrule" ?

I was thinking to change the section a bit, e.g. :"The chronology section of Hyrule Historia, consists of a collection of tales passed down by the people of Hyrule. Since the account presented may contain inaccuracies, the editors of the book invite the readers to give their own interpretation regarding the actual events." Any proposals/thoughts? Zeldafan1982 21:33, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

I think you're reading a bit too much into it. I think they clearly tread a line between being "in-universe" and not intentionally, to leave it a bit vague. The whole book is sort of like that. It doesn't really matter if it's in-universe or not. The point they are making is that it's a fluid thing and might change in future. User:Fizzle/sig 23:51, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

It can change yes, the justification they give though is that the stories passed down by the people can change (or that parts that are obscure now may become more clear later), not that they, as developers, may change something in the future (i.e retcon). I'm removing the bit about the narrator for now. Zeldafan1982 15:33, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

"Demonic War"

The game is quite vague about the period this conflict occurred, therefore this section is a bit speculative. The conflict can have a short mention in the FSA section and in Hyrule's page, as it is not really necessary for the conflicts described there to be arranged chronologically (at least not all of them). Zeldafan1982 18:17, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

Sounds fair. — Hylian King ^[*] 18:52, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

Two Zelda's

As i understand from this article, there are two Zelda's alive at the time of Zelda 1 and 2, namely the Zelda who split the Triforce of Wisdom and the Sleeping Zelda. Or am I just confused now?--Grizzfang 19:43, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

That is correct. The Adventure of Link is a direct sequel to The Legend of Zelda, so the Princess Zelda from the latter is still around when Link awakens the Princess that predates either games. User:Pakkun/sig 20:03, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

Useless Theories....

Since Hyrule Historia contained the official timeline, shouldn't the "Timeline theories" section of the article be deleted?

They are preserved to depict a time when the fandom used to speculate about the timeline. It might need a slight wording change, but we have no intention of deleting the timeline theories.User:Justin/sig 11:39, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

Downfall Timeline Alternate Theory

I was thinking about how the Downfall Timeline fits into the timeline as a whole, and Link being defeated seems like a pretty weak basis for a timeline split - and what if ALttP Link was defeated? Or TP Link, or WW Link? Wouldn't that cause a split in the timeline as well? And if not, what makes OoT Link so special?

The other two timeline splits make sense - as a result of the time-travel involved at the end of the game, the Adult Timeline continues on from the point where Link defeated Ganondorf, and was sent back to his childhood, leaving this timeline completely. The Child Timeline starts from when Link arrives back in the time of his childhood - he warns Zelda and the rest of the Royal Family of Ganondorf's treachery. With Ganondorf stopped, the later events of Ocarina of Time never happened, creating the Child Timeline.

The Downfall Timeline, on the other hand, appears to be based off the concept of parallel universes. I believe a more plausible and more consistent basis for this timeline is Link returning to his childhood mid-quest. If Zelda sending him back in time creates a timeline split, him sending himself back should logically do the same thing. Throughout the game, Link has to return to his childhood twice - once to go through Beneath the Well and get the Lens of Truth, the other to complete the 'child section' of the Spirit Temple, although it's probably possible to do both in one go. When he went back to his childhood, he changed something - the Kakariko Well was dry, the Dead Hand was... well, dead, and the Silver Gauntlets were gone from the Spirit Temple. While these may not seem like particularly major changes, they would have had some effect on the future. Due to this, he would have returned to a different future than the one he left - another timeline. This would mean he never returned to the one he left, in which he would no longer be there to defeat Ganondorf.

To sum up: Downfall Timeline is created when Link returns to the past BEFORE defeating Ganondorf - essentially the Adult Timeline if Link had never existed. This leads to Ganondorf eventually being sealed in the Dark World following the Imprisoning War. This leads to the events of A Link to the Past, the Oracle Series, Link's Awakening, The Legend of Zelda and Adventure of Link.

Adult Timeline is created after Link defeats Ganondorf, and is sent back to the past. This leaves Hyrule without a hero when Ganondorf escapes his seal and attacks Hyrule, leading to Great Flood, and the events of The Wind Waker, Phantom Hourglass and Spirit Tracks.

Child Timeline is created when Link arrives back in his childhood after being sent back by Zelda. Link's foreknowledge of Ganondorf's plans prevents the original events of Ocarina of Time from happening. Having saved Hyrule, Link leaves to search for Navi, leading to the events of Majora's Mask. The warning to the Royal Family leads to the Ganondorf's imprisonment, attempted execution, and subsequent exile into the Twilight Realm. This leads to the events of Twilight Princess, and later, Four Swords Adventures.

Does this sound like a plausible theory? Link23 (talk) 02:36, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

It's certainly plausible, but I find it unlikely. For the most part, time travel in OoT seems centered on the idea of a wormhole- a "tear" in the spacetime continuum that forms a tunnel between the past and future. This tunnel opens whenever Link draws and replaces the Master Sword, thus forming a firm link between the Unified, "pre-Child" timeline and the Adult Timeline. However, at the end of the game, Zelda uses her power to transport Link back to an earlier point in time, before the wormhole's point of origin in the "pre-Child" timeline, and then permanently seals the wormhole by laying the Master Sword to rest and closing the Door of Time. It is this that allows the Child Timeline to be formed in the first place. Thus, the Child and Adult timelines also exist in two different universes, sharing a common connection to the Unified timeline but otherwise being distinct from one another.

As for the Downfall timeline, I personally like it as a concept and can't really understand why everyone makes such a fuss over it. In all probability, it was made up on the spot as a deus ex machina of sorts, but this doesn't make the concept itself inherently flawed. As you said, a pseudo-Downfall timeline should occur in every game whenever Link dies- and, according to quantum mechanics, they do. We just have yet to see them because no games have occured in them yet. I actually think another timeline split happens in Skyward Sword... though that's a discussion for a forum, I suppose. Setras (talk) 04:50, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

Quantum mechanics, that was the word I was looking for!

You make a good point, though - I was mainly thinking of how the Downfall timeline seems a bit irrelevant to the others, but it's just an idea I had. Link23 (talk) 09:57, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

Downfall Timeline is created when Link returns to the past BEFORE defeating Ganondorf - essentially the Adult Timeline if Link had never existed. According to HH though, Link is defeated and not merely absent. Moreover, I don't think the OoT Sages would be able to seal Ganon without Link's help. Link may have been defeated but he could have also weakened Ganon enough for the sealing to occur.

Regardless, the talk pages are reserved for discussions on how to improve the page, so we are off-topic :P Welcome to the wiki by the way :) Zeldafan1982 (talk) 17:29, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

A Link Between Worlds

Will events from A Link Between Worlds be added to this? I feel like they ought to regardless of whether or not they were in Hyrule Historia. We know the official timeline placement as told by Nintendo (between Link's Awakening and The Legend of Zelda) So why not put it in there? Ongs (talk) 22:58, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

I think it should be added, but it would be best to "let the dust settle," on the issue. There are a few disputed or unclear details in the game. Specifically, the back story of A Link to the Past appears to have been changed (or new details added) - the game clearly states that the Triforce split into 3 parts at the end, with one remaining with the "royal family," one being sealed away with Ganon (how does that work if he's dead?), and another vanished to appear when the time was right.

There's also the topic of when the back story of Lorule actually occurs. It happens prior to the events of A Link Between Worlds, but is it after Link's Awakening? Or did the back story happen during A Link to the Past? These are all things that need to be decided.

Simply put, I think it would be wise to wait to add the information until the game has been around a bit longer. --Joshua (Yumil) (talk) 03:47, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

I agree it is a good idea to wait. However as for the problems you've stated with continuity, I figured that the Triforce was split again after Link touched it at the beginning of Oracle of Seasons. However, I guess this doesn't really make sense given that that Link had already proven he had a balance of the three virtues and it wouldn't split when he touched it. I also think that the origin of Lorule can just be addressed along with the rest of the A Link Between World info. Just as it is for the origin of the Twilight Realm because its not entirely clear when everything with the Dark Interlopers happened but its just placed with the other Twilight Princess stuff. Ongs (talk) 00:18, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

I agree with the addition as it is important to mention that the Unified Triforce is enshrined in Hyrule Castle's grounds, and Link and Zelda make their first wish of it. This leads to the obvious conclusion that the game portrays the beginning of Hyrule's Golden Era, the time when the Triforce came into possession of the Royal Family, which is further evidenced by Nintendo's own assertion it occurs between Link's Awakening and the original Zelda. Obviously the main event in the timeline that would clearly fit the events shown at the end of the game, is the beginning of Hyrule's Golden Era. The Golden Era section should be split into two, "The Beginning" with the "main article" being the "A Link Between Worlds" article, about how the Triforce was unified and came into possession of the Royal Family, and then a rewrite of the currently existing section. Colliric (talk) 01:54, 28 November 2013 (UTC)